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23 Jul 15 - 12:04 PM (#3725600) Subject: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich i was just wondering if anyone else had paid their £3 to vote for Jeremy Corbyn. and if not, why not? |
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23 Jul 15 - 03:31 PM (#3725625) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Joe Offer Remember you have a worldwide audience, achmelvich. Tell us a bit more. Wikipedia tells me Jeremy Corbyn is a British Labour Party politician who has been a Member of Parliament since 1983, but I don't understand about the £3, or the issues involved. Please provide enlightenment. -Joe- |
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23 Jul 15 - 04:17 PM (#3725630) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: McGrath of Harlow Anyone in UK can register a a supporter of Labour, and get to vote in the election being held for Labour party leader. If you're a member of a Trade UNion thta is afiliated with the party, and pay into it's political fund, you can register for free, otherwise you have to pay £3. In either case you have to declare you support the values and principles of the party - which isnt the same as actually joining the party, which is fair enough since the Labour Party typically forgets its values and principles. Jeremy Corbyn is an exception to that, which is what makes him a different kind of candidate, and one a lot of people are rallying to. Meanwhile the party establishment are horrified. Perhaps the most appealing thing about him is that clearly he has no personal ambition to high office whatsoever. He's running because he thinks it,s his duty. That's pretty unusual among politicians in any country. |
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23 Jul 15 - 04:25 PM (#3725633) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,imated http://www.labour.org.uk/blog/entry/how-to-vote-for-our-next-leader-and-deputy-leader |
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23 Jul 15 - 05:33 PM (#3725650) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Yep, dunnit |
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23 Jul 15 - 06:39 PM (#3725667) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Abdul on ipad I diddle know about the cheap way so I joined the Labour Party as full member. The sole purpose being to vote for him. Al |
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23 Jul 15 - 07:09 PM (#3725672) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Anne Lister Registered via the MU to vote ...if he gets elected I may well join the Labour Party. If he doesn't, I certainly won't. But if he does, I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens next! |
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23 Jul 15 - 07:17 PM (#3725673) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus Fools and their money are easy parted |
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23 Jul 15 - 07:31 PM (#3725675) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich the problem for many of us in the uk is that we may have spent a lifetime hoping that the labour party (formed from the trade unions and supposedly representing the workers) will actually start doing what they are meant to do. instead they have increasingly gone along with the failing capitalist experiment and offered a pale version of a full on, right wing assault on all that is worth while in our country. we now have the opportunity to vote for a bit of common sense and decency and the labour establishment are rattled. it's interesting times..... |
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24 Jul 15 - 03:46 AM (#3725728) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Aloysius Chuckabutty The only trouble with Labour policies is that to pay for them you need a Tory government... |
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24 Jul 15 - 03:58 AM (#3725731) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Musket on soapbox I'm not a member and never have been. That said I've always voted for them. A middle of the road party that realises the country is a broad church with many vulnerable people who need a suck on the Westminster teat merely to survive is always going to beat the Tory philosophy of deserved and undeserved in my book. The idea of a political party is to try to convince the electorate to allow you to form a government and push through your policies. A vote for Corbyn is a vote for twelve years minimum of Cameron and his Tory successor in three years time. Not exactly the best way to get a government with compassion and social equality if you ask me... |
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24 Jul 15 - 04:29 AM (#3725734) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Keith A of Hertford Meanwhile the party establishment are horrified. As Musket and Blair say, it will make them unelectable again, possibly for a generation. |
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24 Jul 15 - 05:42 AM (#3725742) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Musket and Blair. Yes I thought as much. Remember - more didn't vote than voted for any party. Many of those did not vote Labour for the simple reason that Labour was conservative-lite. Corbyn can retrieve many of them. Sniffin Gideon has made a total pig's ear of the economy. Time to blow the myth of conservative economic competence out of the water. And time to get the tax take up - not cut taxes on the rich and on international capitalism. |
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24 Jul 15 - 05:46 AM (#3725743) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,JHW I'll find that cookie one day "The idea of a political party is to try to convince the electorate to allow you to form a government and push through your policies." Good speech Musket. I'm afraid the way I see it now is The idea of a political party is to try to convince the electorate to allow you to form a government. |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:09 AM (#3725745) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Steve Shaw The last couple of weeks have been a total disaster for Labour. Looking at the four candidates, in terms of 2020 electability (zero likelihood) it doesn't matter which one gets the job. Squabbles, splits, no clear blue water and no sense of direction make Labour easy meat for the Tories. Just wait for the next general election campaign: same old Michael Foot-style rifts, can't agree among themselves, look what happened last time they were in (that one will be milked for at least another ten years), discredited Tony Blair sticking his unwanted nose back in and frightening the horses... Yep, the next Tory campaign is writing itself before our very eyes. It's tragic. |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:22 AM (#3725746) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Leadfingers The really sad thing is that Princess Tony warped the whole Labour Party - The Manifesto in 1997 dropped ALL mention of Socialism , and the Blair Cabinet was well to the right of John Majors 'Tory' cabinet - And far too many of the current Parliamentary Labour Party seem to be Closet Tories who got into 'safe Labour seats' purely as a way to get into Westminster to line their own pockets . Hence their dread that the party might actually become a Socialist organisation again . |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM (#3725751) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome Corbyn has many good points, not the least of which is a seeming disinterest in power. The Labour party certainly need to do something drastic to regain credibility but I do not know enough about it to say whether Jeremy Corbyn is that something. I hope so as he seems to be that rarest of breeds, an honest politician. |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:40 AM (#3725753) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich i am reading a lot about how a more left-leaning labour party would be unelectable, too radical etc. surely the current government -easily the most extreme government in my memory- are proof that england will elect proven, liars, incompetents and out of touch psychopaths if they can control the media. beside that lot jeremy corbyn is absolutely sensible, mainstream and trustworthy. the disaster(s) has already happened for the labour party - if they can't get elected after 5 years (and many more) of this lot they must have a serious rethink. |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:57 AM (#3725755) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus "Sniffin Gideon has made a total pig's ear of the economy. Time to blow the myth of conservative economic competence out of the water." Really Bridge?? Now c'mon tell us all what a great job Gordon of Cartoon did as Chancellor and Prime Minister between 1997 and 2010. Tell us all what great financial shape the country was in when Labour lost the 2010 election. By the way Bridge unless you hadn't noticed the UK is doing fairly well compared to most in the Eurozone and the rest of the developed world for that matter. |
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24 Jul 15 - 07:00 AM (#3725756) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome Two good reasons to vote for him now. He seems honest and Teribus doesn't like him :-) |
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24 Jul 15 - 07:33 AM (#3725766) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Teribilis, the only problem the con-servatives had with Brownian deregulation of casino banking was that it did not go far enough. If he was wrong, they were yet more wrong. Some experts. And they and the press are STILL telling the lie that the crash was caused by Labour overspending. The consensus among serious economic bodies is now quite the contrary. You want effective economic policies? Try Iceland. Respect Hugo Chavez. Try Denmark, Finland, and Norway. |
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24 Jul 15 - 08:03 AM (#3725774) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Anne Lister Oh, I am so tired of hearing how Corbyn will "make the Labour party unelectable" or will give us another decade of the Tories. The fact is we simply don't know what the electorate will do when offered a left wing alternative. We haven't been offered one for decades. At the moment Corbyn's key policy statements are pretty much expressions of popular feeling. His biggest problem, as always, will be the Murdoch domination of the media. I prefer to be optimistic on this whole matter - Corbyn has at last ignited a lot of fireworks and a lot of people are talking of voting who have not previously shown interest in the Labour leadership. Nothing about it will be easy and there will be arguments in the Parliamentary Labour Party, but if he fails to win and if we plunge back into the mediocrity where we've been for so long, passively accepting the Tory lies, fudges and smoke and mirrors I for one will be looking for political alternatives. |
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24 Jul 15 - 09:15 AM (#3725786) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus What had deregulation of the banks have to do with selling off the UK's Gold Reserves at bargain basement prices? What had deregulation of the banks have to do with raiding the national pension fund to create non-jobs in an attempt to buy votes? Like every other Labour Government since the end of the Second World War Blair and Brown left the country in economic ruin. The last Coalition Government and the current Conservative Government made and are making not too poor a fist of getting the country back on an even keel. "Respect Hugo Chavez"!!!!! The man who made it his life's work to turn an extremely rich oil based state into a basket case. Skarpi will tell you all about Iceland. Denmark's way of doing things would have most UK Trades Unionists reeling in horror and fighting every reform tooth and nail. Like all Scandinavian countries the basic tax rates are eye-wateringly painful, something that the whole population of the UK would no doubt welcome with open arms. Norway basic rate of tax is somewhere between 36% and 38% but everybody pays it - with a population of only 5 million and a system based on everyone having to have an easily traced Personnummer there is no escaping the taxman - now who was it that was against the introduction of a similar scheme based on ID Cards in the UK? |
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24 Jul 15 - 09:27 AM (#3725793) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Steve Shaw "By the way Bridge unless you hadn't noticed the UK is doing fairly well compared to most in the Eurozone and the rest of the developed world for that matter." Except that we don't make stuff any more (cheers, Maggie) and that productivity is grinding along the bottom, in spite of the much-vaunted "millions of jobs created" mantra we hear from the Tories. Nothing, I suppose, to do with the fact that most of those jobs are part-time but not part-time enough to claim benefits, or are seasonal, or are temporary, or are on zero-hours contracts, or are fake "self-employed" or are bogus "apprenticeships" paying £2.79 per hour... |
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24 Jul 15 - 09:47 AM (#3725797) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus Your pre-1979 world no longer exists Shaw and nothing is ever going to bring it back - high time you realised that. By the way we do actually produce (make) a damn sight more stuff than you obviously think. "Nothing, I suppose, to do with the fact that most of those jobs are part-time but not part-time enough to claim benefits, or are seasonal, or are temporary, or are on zero-hours contracts, or are fake "self-employed" or are bogus "apprenticeships" paying £2.79 per hour..." Back waving your "zero-hour contracts" flag again Stevie?? 29 million+ form the current workforce in the United Kingdom less than 1 million of them are "jobs that are part-time but not part-time enough to claim benefits, or are seasonal, or are temporary, or are on zero-hours contracts, or are fake "self-employed" or are bogus "apprenticeships" paying £2.79 per hour..." Since when did 1 million out of 29 million become "Most of those jobs" Shaw? |
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24 Jul 15 - 09:51 AM (#3725798) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Steve Shaw I was not talking about most of the jobs in the UK. I was talking about most of the jobs allegedly created by the Tories. Do take time to read carefully. How many zero-hour contract jobs were there in 2010, Teribus? |
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24 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM (#3725801) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Musket smiling I would like to take this opportunity, credit where it's due and all that, to congratulate Keith in linking me to Blair. That Bridge picked up on it is ten points to Keith. Seriously. Congratulations, rather clever and all that. You don't see me saying that too often. In years to come, historians will argue whether I said it or not, but if you choose your historians carefully I'm sure you can find a consensus. Now then Bridge.. Not a bad stance from a one nation Tory if you don't mind me saying so. I've always voted Labour myself like. Not really had much interest in hypocrisy. Piss poor candidates all round. Corbyn is indeed the most honest and principles of them all but that doesn't make him Prime Minister material. You can get the keys to the car but you need to afford petrol, avoid hitting other road users and don't block traffic. |
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24 Jul 15 - 10:38 AM (#3725811) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Backwoodsman "Remember - more didn't vote than voted for any party. Many of those did not vote Labour for the simple reason that Labour was conservative-lite." Nonsense, delusional nonsense. They didn't vote Labour because the press, most of which is owned by the Tory barons, has carried out a smear-and-fear campaign for the past n years and, by their constant lies and mis-information, have succeeded in persuading the feeble-minded amongst former Labour voters that everything that led to the world-wide financial crash of 2008, and the resulting 'austerity' program of the Tories which hits the poorest hardest and continues to enrich the already-rich, was caused by Labour. "Corbyn can retrieve many of them." No he can't, for the reasons already stated above. Admirable though his manifesto is (I read it today), it's redolent of a hard lurch to the left which, thanks to the aforementioned lies and mis-information spread by the Tory gutter-press, MOR Labour voters are terrified of. The only way Labour will return to power is by the Tories making a complete cluster-fuck of things and, even then, the power of the Tory press, and their willingness to lie and deceive, is such that they would probably still be able to persuade the brainwashed that such a clusterfuck was down to the Labour opposition. |
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24 Jul 15 - 10:43 AM (#3725812) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich does anyone think that david cameron is 'prime minister material' ? or even worse george osborne? they are slick salesmen that the media have decided are right for the job. thatcher was clearly not prime minister material by any standards and certainly not in comparison with michael foot but it is not for us to decide these matters, it's for rupert murdoch and friends. i do fear that the media will slaughter jeremy corbyn (as they have done with every labour leader except blair) but you have to have hope that there are enough decent people around to at least listen to the message of a better way of organising things for all of society. or do we just accept that greed and personal gain is the only thing driving our politics? |
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24 Jul 15 - 11:12 AM (#3725823) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome because the press, most of which is owned by the Tory barons, has carried out a smear-and-fear campaign for the past n years and, by their constant lies and mis-information, I agree completely BWM but, sadly, the Labour party on seeing that tactic working, tried a few smears of their own instead of showing up the media lies for what they are. For many people the last election was nothing to do with voting for what you believe is right but voting against what they perceived as the biggest bogeyman. A very poor state of affairs indeed when politics has come down to showmanship and story telling by all parties. Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated here and in real life, people are still falling for it :-( |
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24 Jul 15 - 11:13 AM (#3725824) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Raedwulf What is "Prime Minister" material, then, Ach? Winston Churchill, Lloyd George? Apparently, they won us two world wars, but both were prize c**** as far as I can see (no, I'm not short-sighted; not in that meaning, anyway). As several have said, Corbyn may well be that rare animal, an honest polician. But however little Anne may like it, he will be Electoral Suicide. Backwoodsman is also wrong. Most people are comfortable & selfish. Altruism is a nice idea, so long as I don't have to pay for it. Think on that. The reason that not enough people vote Labour isn't because the Tories own the press... |
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24 Jul 15 - 11:46 AM (#3725829) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Backwoodsman "I agree completely BWM but, sadly, the Labour party on seeing that tactic working, tried a few smears of their own instead of showing up the media lies for what they are. For many people the last election was nothing to do with voting for what you believe is right but voting against what they perceived as the biggest bogeyman. A very poor state of affairs indeed when politics has come down to showmanship and story telling by all parties. Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated here and in real life, people are still falling for it" True enough to Dave. Sadly. |
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24 Jul 15 - 11:47 AM (#3725830) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Backwoodsman "True enough Dave, sadly." |
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24 Jul 15 - 12:11 PM (#3725838) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Raedwulf It's been true for a long time. Decades. This will sound rude, even though I don't want it to but, why haven't (generic) you realised this before now? I remember the "Labour's tax bombshell" campaign back in the 80's (it was actually Major, not Milk-Snatcher, if my memory serves). It's always been an uphill struggle for Labour to be elected. There are very many reasons for that. But Foot & Kinnock (even though, at the time, I liked them) were an absolute god-send to the Tories. They made Labour unelectable. There are, in my opinion, only two basic drivers in life for all organisms - avoidance of pain & pursuance of pleasure. Where Homo Sapiens is concerned, at least, avoiding pain seems the stronger, however you like to define "pain". There is a study that concluded that if you lost a tenner, you'd need to find £21 just to even things up. That's how much we'd rather avoid pain. Twice as much & a little bit over. Everyone, the right wing too, loves the idea of an egalitarian world where everyone gets their just desserts. Unfortunately, no-one (by which I mean "very few") are willing to pay the personal price & sacrifice that would be required. Make of that what you will. For Homo Us family comes before... And family doesn't necessarily mean blood relation. It means "the people I choose to surround myself with; those who are like me". Is it any wonder we keep blundering so much? |
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24 Jul 15 - 12:40 PM (#3725846) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST In Iceland they threw the banksters in jail and helped the people. In most other countries we threw the people in jail and helped the banksters. |
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24 Jul 15 - 03:09 PM (#3725875) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: McGrath of Harlow The constant parading of Michael Foot's defeat as proof the left can never win shouldn't be allowed to pass without being examined. Two special factors lay behind this - one was the defection of the Gang of Four, and the whole episode of the SDP, and the other was having the Argentine generals riding to Thatcher's rescue by invading the Falklands. Of course there could be a new SDP style defection, though I think there'd be a much less naive welcoming attitude to it, and I doubt if a fresh victorious war is too likely to turn up. If John Smith hadn't died, Labour would probably still won in 1997, with Clause Four still in place and with a programme which would now be seen (by the Labour front bench) as dangerously left. What is likely to decide the next election is primarily how unpopular the Tories are. I suspect and trust, very unpopular indeed. |
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24 Jul 15 - 03:30 PM (#3725880) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: MGM·Lion Oh, yes, of course. The Gang Of Four just defected coz they were feeling a bit bloody-minded that morning coz their breakfast bacon was a bit overcooked. Nothing to do with their noticing that poor old Foot's antediluvian and long discredited doctrinaire lefty bum was alienating the electorate in geometrical progression with every minute that passed... Have none of you really ever noticed that any party going to the country with genuine socialist policies has ever got elected in UK? -- Except maybe Attlee's with all those idealistic returning servicemen. Only to be sabotaged by that nasty puritanical sadist Cripps, whose idea of socialism was austerity austerity & then a bit more austerity: becoz he was a natural puritan rather than a true socialist. Which rather turned off an electorate who'd just had 7 years of it, thanks; and won; and thought a bit of triumphant relaxation might be nice. And he carried poor old Attlee along with him, to his eternal shame. And you're surprised that we've never wanted another dose of self-righteous wealthy upperclass lefties telling us that we were naughty children and mustn't touch and doing without was good for us! Or that no left-wing government anywhere has ever got power by the simple democratic expedient of winning a free election? ≈M≈ |
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24 Jul 15 - 04:44 PM (#3725898) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich i feel i should point out that i have been a lefty all my adult life and never met anyone truly wealthy or upper-class. i have known some middle-class people but very few who admit to being tories. for a brief period in the late '70s it was trendy to be a lefty but never since. and by the way i don't envy the rich -though i do envy people who live in more equal societies. if you don't like people telling you that you are 'naughty children' then grow up and stop being so dim and greedy. however, i probably am a bit self-righteous -then again, it's because i am invariably clear-sighted and perceptive in all my political opinions. Lay off Michael Foot by the way, probably the most intelligent, decent and honest political leader we've had in (fairly) recent times. he was unlucky in getting the job too old and having to reconcile a deeply divided party containing a load of self-righteous and and determined trots (me included) i could mention spain, cuba and chile as elected left governments but i don't have time -off to the pub. |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:28 PM (#3725909) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Stanron Dare no one mention that Greece quite recently elected a left wing government? |
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24 Jul 15 - 06:38 PM (#3725913) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Steve Shaw Yep, Michael Foot was a principled man who was on a hiding to nothing, far more principled than Healey and co. As for the Gang of Four, they were simply nakedly opportunistic and delusional people who handed the '83 election to Thatcher on a plate, not because they split the vote but because they turned perceived divisions on the left into easy meat for the Tories. To this day, any perceived division in Labour's ranks is seen as a fatal weakness (as though the vicious divisions in the Tory party never existed...). The Tories are very clever at closing ranks. Labour haven't got a clue on that score, as recent weeks have shown. It has stuffed them for the next election, just as sure as that extremely ill-advised note left by Liam Byrne in 2010 stuffed them five years later. Come back Alastair Campbell, all (nearly) is forgiven. |
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24 Jul 15 - 07:05 PM (#3725924) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: McGrath of Harlow It's just not true that the voters rejected the Attlee government, and opted for the Tories. In fact in the 1950 election Labour got two and a half million more votes than the Tories, and scraped in with five more seats. In the 1951 election Labour got more votes than the other parties combined, and received the highest vote ever received by any party in an election. And lost. That's the British electoral system for you. Of course the victorious Tories had the sense to appreciate stuff like that, and held to a range of policies for the next generation that were well to the left of the last Labour government in many ways. If there's a split in the Labour Party it'll be the right who are the splitters, as usual. |
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24 Jul 15 - 07:18 PM (#3725928) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: McGrath of Harlow Pedantic correction to my post - in 1950 Labour only got 1 1/2 million votes more than the Tories. Still a pretty fair margin that deserved a bigger margin of seats than five. |
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25 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM (#3726041) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich of course, more recently chavez was elected 3? times in venezuela on an explicitly left agenda and a western backed coup was defeated by a popular revolt. prime minister material? my friend Dave. and my wife would make a great chancellor. even if she is a bit austere at times, she has all the compassion necessary - which must be the most important quality for that or any other job in government. |
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26 Jul 15 - 04:56 AM (#3726174) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Keith A of Hertford |
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26 Jul 15 - 04:57 AM (#3726175) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Keith A of Hertford It is reported that Tories are paying their £3 to vote for Corbyn. |
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26 Jul 15 - 06:04 AM (#3726182) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton The really sad thing, is that people still believe that society can be changed by nice, reasonable people like Jeremy. Don't you remember how the media treated Mr Milliband? A nice, reasonable man in the same mould. Society was changed by the Tories, by appealing to the worst of human characteristics, envy , greed and the rights of the individual over all. The media direct voting intentions and social direction in this country, Jeremy will be crucified! The method of choice by "liberals"......funnily enough. Change must come soon....but never pretend that it can be achieved easily, painlessly, or by the ballot box. We are in too deep for that. |
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26 Jul 15 - 06:34 AM (#3726190) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: MGM·Lion Right on [or do I mean "Left on"!], ake. Time for a rendition of that fine old song, "We'll make" --- We'll make Akenaton post with his real name When the Red Revolution comes! Till when -- All Best Azzevva ✌·M·✌ |
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26 Jul 15 - 11:52 AM (#3726234) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton :0).....and you Michael. Won't be a "red" revolution tho'......more of a greenish brown. |
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26 Jul 15 - 11:58 AM (#3726236) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome What I find really worrying is that politics have move that far to the right that anyone slightly left of Oswald Mosley is now treated as a left wing agitator. It is easy to blame the media and their puppet masters but it is us, the voters, that have accepted it and allowed it to happen. Trouble is that we don't seem to know what to do about it. I don't anyway but I am pretty sure that the rampant consumerism that we are now seeing will, in a number of years, be as dead as eastern bloc communism. Any form of extremism cannot be healthy for the economy or the people. There are, luckily, a number of high profile business and other leaders who do seem to understand that one cannot survive by weighting any part of the economic equation so heavily that the other suffers. I only hope that the global realisation happens sooner rather than later and if by becoming labour party leader Mr Corbyn sends a message to that effect it can only be for the good. |
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26 Jul 15 - 12:04 PM (#3726239) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome The other thing that I forgot to mention is that the results of the inquiry by Justice Lowell Goddard will be made known eventualy. I suspect that a lot of people in both politics and the media will be covered in it when that shit hits the fan. It may even make people realise how much they have been fooled for so many years. We can but hope... |
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26 Jul 15 - 02:44 PM (#3726265) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge I suspect that even Ake can understand it. There is no point in having a Labour party that follows con-servative policies. Simples. |
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26 Jul 15 - 03:09 PM (#3726273) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome Don't think so, Richard. Everyone is "liberal" apparently. |
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26 Jul 15 - 03:23 PM (#3726275) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton Not quite Richard....some conservative social policies are right and good for society. There is no point in electing any government which pretends that the Capitalist socio/economic system can be reformed, it is impossible, we simply kill the goose which lays the wooden eggs. The system must be gradually dismantled and replaced by something fairer and less wasteful of lives and resources. This of course means for a large part leaving "self" out of the equation and that requires time and education. Future generations will look back on the twentieth and twenty first centuries as a time of madness, selfish waste and destruction, we shall all be branded for it. |
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26 Jul 15 - 03:45 PM (#3726278) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST Future generations will look back on the twentieth and twenty first centuries as a time of madness, selfish waste and destruction, we shall all be branded for it. How about the nineteenth ? The eighteenth ? |
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26 Jul 15 - 04:22 PM (#3726291) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Con-servative policies are simply to better the very richest and oppress the poorest. There is no virtue to be seen in that unless, like Akenhateon you believe that some people are untermenschen. |
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26 Jul 15 - 04:23 PM (#3726292) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Oh, and don't expect the truth from Myer |
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26 Jul 15 - 05:32 PM (#3726304) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton GUEST...the eighteenth? no I don't think so....not in Scotland at any rate. The nineteenth...certainly, but we knew not what we did. After that, we knew and did not care. Richard, you would not know the truth if you found it stuck to the sole of your boot.......didn't you say you were some sort of barrister? |
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26 Jul 15 - 06:17 PM (#3726309) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton M....I'm sorry but I must disagree about MF. The real reason he lost the election was a diabolical combination of "donkey jacket" and "Wurzil Gummidge hairstyle"....a victim of media assassination.......The media can encourage folks to do and legislate for the stupidest of things. |
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26 Jul 15 - 09:45 PM (#3726343) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: McGrath of Harlow The Argentine generals and the Gang of Four were a bit more significant than the donkey jacket (which of course wasn't a donkey jacket). |
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26 Jul 15 - 10:59 PM (#3726354) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: MGM·Lion Mr Myer to you, if you please, Mr Bridge -- you unmannerly little jumped-up nonentity. Still, congratulations on having at last got the correct spelling into your head! |
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27 Jul 15 - 03:10 AM (#3726372) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Ah, confession by omission, you conceited arse. |
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27 Jul 15 - 03:28 AM (#3726376) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus "Con-servative policies are simply to better the very richest and oppress the poorest." Really Bridge?? Then care to explain why the ranks of the rich aren't burgeoning, how and why the numbers of those considered to be "middle-class" is growing rapidly and those who are considered to be working class dropping. BBC's "Rich World" series of programmes had the world economy having doubled in the last twenty years, the numbers of those living in poverty halved and the middle-class being the faster growing social class in the world. "Oppressed" my backside, ever stood in the departure halls of Stanstead; Luton; Heathrow; Gatwick; Birmingham; Manchester; Newcastle at the height of our holiday season? All those oppressed poor people going off on holiday to destinations that even their parents could only ever have dreamed about. Only the rich that are scooting round in those millions of cars that clog our roads Bridge? Don't think so. There is only one political party in the UK that has a vested interest in maintaining a voter base of poor and disadvantaged people - the Labour Party. |
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27 Jul 15 - 03:59 AM (#3726379) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: MGM·Lion Pots'n'kettles, dear Mr Bridge, pots'n'kettles! ≈M≈ "omission" of what, BTW? Gnomic and incomprehensible azzevva! |
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27 Jul 15 - 04:24 AM (#3726389) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge How foolish terribilis. Look at the facts. The share that the rich control has proportionately massively increased. The share that the poor control has diminished. But then I don't expect you to see the truth even if it bites you on the arse. |
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27 Jul 15 - 04:38 AM (#3726391) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton The fact that the "working class" have all but disappeared has little to do with which particular government is in power Richard. They are all trying to make a rapacious system work successfully. The Conservative Party are undeniably better at this. The real reason that the "working class" are no more, is the cyclical nature of Capitalism. If living standards simply become too high and too wasteful as Teribus has demonstrated, the country becomes "uncompetitive in the global market place"......hence the influx of low paid, low maintenance workers, from our new colonies in Eastern Europe. |
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27 Jul 15 - 05:05 AM (#3726399) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Raggytash Akenaton there seems to be a flaw in your argument you state: " The fact that the "working class" have all but disappeared has little to do with which particular government is in power Richard" But then go on to say: "hence the influx of low paid, low maintenance workers, from our new colonies in Eastern Europe" Pray tell, what are low paid, low maintenance workers if not working class. |
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27 Jul 15 - 05:36 AM (#3726407) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton The "free movement of labour", was a cynical ploy by the rulers of the EU to provide cheap low maintenance labour to the richer members. The effects of this migration on the infrastructure of these Eastern European countries is bound to be dire.....who runs their Public Services, who builds their homes?......Only the never to be paid back bribes from EU coffers to soften the disintegration. Our own people are too expensive to retrain, so we have hit on the ploy of squeezing the benefit system which was used as a tool to keep people quiet when their employment was recycled. The benefit culture is a disgrace, it demeans humanity, but there must be something to replace it and we must learn to live within our means...and to attain status without obscene wealth differentials. In answer to your question...."slave labour", victims of exploitation. |
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27 Jul 15 - 05:48 AM (#3726411) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Raggytash Seeing as you didn't answer the question in that little ramble I will ask it again: "Pray tell, what are low paid, low maintenance workers if not working class" You know the working class that you tell doesn't exist. |
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27 Jul 15 - 05:55 AM (#3726413) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton "Slave labour", victims of exploitation, economic migrants. Take your pick. |
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27 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM (#3726414) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Raggytash What on earth are the working class if not "Slave labour", victims of exploitation, economic migrants" You know, the people you tell us don't exist. |
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27 Jul 15 - 06:17 AM (#3726417) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST Is it possible to lead a political party and stay honest ? Corbyn has been outspoken on things that need to be spoken. However, talking is easy to do if you don't have play a part in doing anything practical about current issues as they arise, either within a party or in government. Action usually involves compromose and sometimes least-worst solutions. One thing Thatcher left us with (stop hissing) is a trade union movement that can play a proper role in democratic society without frightening political moderates. There seems to be an awareness in 'the centre' that the UK is too unequal, big corporations have too much power and that everything in the shops is imported. There might be some credible left-wing options to argue for. He might be the person to show that those on the left are the good guys. |
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27 Jul 15 - 06:28 AM (#3726418) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton The "british working" class used to be a powerful organised voice in determining the political direction of this country.....unfortunately it has been emasculated and almost wiped out by governments of both persuasions. The few have moved to embrace self employment or low wage contract employment with little protection.....the many have become the benefit ridden, hopeless "underclass". The "working class" in the UK no longer exists. The modern Labour Party claim to stand for an entity that they were instrumental in destroying......Thank you Mr Blair. Now if you have nothing constructive to add, I will leave you to dance solo on that pin head.;0) |
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27 Jul 15 - 06:49 AM (#3726421) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST The "british working" class used to be a powerful organised voice in determining the political direction of this country The "powerful organised voice" used that voice like turkeys voting for Christmas and the divided 'old Labour' handed the country to Thatcher on a plate. I grew up with news of dock strikes. Where are 'our' docks now? Rotterdam. I grew up with news railway strikes. What do we have now? Motorways. I grew up with news miners strikes. What do we have now? Imported coal. I grew up with news of steelworkers strikes. What do we have now? Imports. I grew up with news of printers strikes. What do we have now? Murdoch and a technology that would have come anyway. And they were surprised that Thatcher kept getting elected? |
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27 Jul 15 - 07:03 AM (#3726425) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome You don't half talk shite, ake. I work. If I did not I would not be able to shelter, feed and clothe my family. I am therefore working class. Do I not exist? |
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27 Jul 15 - 07:09 AM (#3726426) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton Guest...I didn't say that the working class were always right and they were rarely well led, but they were a powerful political movement. Now they don't exist. |
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27 Jul 15 - 07:21 AM (#3726431) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton I don't usually respond to trolls, but Mr Murdoch "works", Fred the Shred "works", Mr Branston "works", but I doubt that any could be described as "working class". Most self employed people regard themselves, rightly or wrongly as "middle class". |
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27 Jul 15 - 07:25 AM (#3726432) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome I am not any of those people. I am not self employed. I work and get paid so I am working class along with millions of other people. Do we not exist? Simple enough question even for you, ake. |
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27 Jul 15 - 07:31 AM (#3726433) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton I would also say GUEST that the points you mention have more to do with the cyclical nature of Capitalism than the ineffectiveness of the British Labour movement. Would you have expected British workers to survive on the wage rates prevalent in the countries exporting resources to the UK? Under the capitalist system, the moment you become "uncompetitive" you get the chop. Capital moves on, it never loses. |
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27 Jul 15 - 07:56 AM (#3726441) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome Of the 64 million people in the UK there are around 40 million of working age. Over 30 million pay their income tax through PAYE. Discount those who are self employed and those who do not use PAYE for other reasons and the proportion of people working and paying tax is a massive 75%-80%. They provide labour in exchange for payment from a company and pay income tax on it. That is working for a living by anyone's definition. Do non of these exist? |
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27 Jul 15 - 08:00 AM (#3726444) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST Would you have expected British workers to survive on the wage rates prevalent in the countries exporting resources to the UK? No, but I would have expected, for example, the productivity of a European container port or publishing house, and not to have a democratic country's infrastructure at the mercy of strikes called after non-secret ballots. The workers got Thatcher because the dynosaurs of the left failed them. |
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27 Jul 15 - 08:08 AM (#3726447) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton The "Working class" is a political definition, at one time they were a powerful and organised political voice. Today we have a number of individuals who work, some employed some self employed they have no organised political voice, it has been removed, they have been emasculated, silenced, politically they have ceased to exist. |
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27 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM (#3726448) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton Guest, you are doubtless correct, but the dinosaurs of the left made the mistake of trying to make the system work in the interests of the workers.....a tactic which was always bound to fail, given the nature of capitalism.......no profit?.....close down and move the money on. |
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27 Jul 15 - 08:21 AM (#3726450) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome working class noun noun: working class; plural noun: working classes 1. the social group consisting of people who are employed for wages, especially in manual or industrial work. "the housing needs of the working classes" But to anyone with a modicum of humanity there should only be one class anyway. We are all human beings and to define classes in such a way is simply divisive. |
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27 Jul 15 - 08:27 AM (#3726452) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST They tried to make it work in the short term interests of the workers. So the docker striking against changes that would shift the same stuff on and off shore with the less people put his children out of work. |
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27 Jul 15 - 08:40 AM (#3726460) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome There is good and bad on both sides of the economic equation. Some expound that labour is more important, causing the type of action that guest is describing, while others set capital at the forefront to the detriment of workers rights. In truth neither is right as they cannot exist without each other. As in most walks of life it is extremism that is the enemy, not each other. |
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27 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM (#3726500) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: McGrath of Harlow "Capital" basically is another word for money, and "capitalism" means a method by which that money can be used to Enable people to produce stuff and provide services. We've got a system in which some people have an enormous amount of money, most have a relatively small amount, and large numbers have virtually none. The real issue isn't whether we operate a form of capitalism, but whether we should continue to have a system in which everything is grossly distorted by inequality. Jeremy Corbyn is very much a capitalist. But one opposed to inequality. Tye same was true for that matter of Karl Marx. |
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27 Jul 15 - 11:26 AM (#3726502) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome Thank you, Kevin. Put far better than I could have done. The fact also remains that there is a growing number of capitalists with similar views. There is nothing wrong at all with responsible capitalism and we, the labour force, should be able to work in an atmosphere of co-operation rather than conflict. We cannot, however, drive that change as it needs to grow in an environment of mutual trust rather than forced revolution. I may be naive but I really do believe we will, eventually, all work together for the mutual good of the planet and everyone on it. Not in my lifetime but maybe in my grand-children's. |
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27 Jul 15 - 11:44 AM (#3726504) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST One trouble is that efforts at shared ownership of the means of production have their ups and downs. When I was a kid the Co-op ran retail stores where you could buy most things and get buried when you died. In the 1960's, with the rise of the supermarkets, they lost the plot and some town-centre locations. They seem to have got their act together over food sales once more, but what a fiasco their banking was. Apparently they are still tops for burying you. Some of the municipal services that Maggie privatised were mind bogglingly inefficient and kept that way because the unions had more influence than ratepayers as 'service users' If that sort of thing is going to work explain to me how its way of doing things is going to be that much different from the private sector. Assuming that in both cases the unions can play a sensible role in looking after employees' interests. Civil servants are not trained to provide services and they don't even seem to know how to buy them without getting ripped off. |
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27 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM (#3726505) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge The key question is whether you want to help the rich exploit the poor. If not, Corbyn is the only opposition to the Etonian toffs. It's that simple. And as usual Akenhateon's exhortation of Nirvana falls woefully short on practical detail! |
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27 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM (#3726508) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus "Capital" basically is another word for money, and "capitalism" means a method by which that money can be used to Enable people to produce stuff and provide services." The one thing you forgot to add Kevin is that it also provides jobs, a means whereby people can earn a living and that system as much as it has been decried and derided by the "left" remains true, it has worked, while alternative systems have not. Nothing in life remains stagnant, things evolve and adaptation to meet the challenges and requirements of the day are what is required. That cannot be accommodated by political dogma and ideology, to listen to most on this forum from the eastern side of the pond they would appear to be stuck in a time warp centred around the thinking of mid-1970s - those days are gone and good riddance to them. Us "baby-boomers" have been the most self-indulgent, materialistic and most destructive the planet has ever seen. Counter to what Kennedy said it is all about what, "MY COUNTRY HAS TO DO FOR ME" - well sorry that is not the way it works, never has, never will - you are responsible for you and that is what children should be taught, both at home and at school. |
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27 Jul 15 - 12:10 PM (#3726509) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus "Some of the municipal services that Maggie privatised were mind bogglingly inefficient and kept that way because the unions had more influence than ratepayers as 'service users' If that sort of thing is going to work explain to me how its way of doing things is going to be that much different from the private sector. Assuming that in both cases the unions can play a sensible role in looking after employees' interests." Totally agree, it should also be cast in stone that Unions are represented, as they are in Germany, on the Boards of the Companies their members work for. The unions, if operating responsibly and effectively are not there to simply look after the interests of their members but also look after the long term interests of the company and the industry in which their members are working - that has been the key to Germany's industrial success - responsible Trades Unions and responsible Management working together - doesn't happen in the UK because of our "us" and "them" mentality. |
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27 Jul 15 - 12:17 PM (#3726511) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton Its quite simple really, you want a Capitalist system, you take what it gives you. Capitalism doesn't do equality. Must I list again the inequalities inherent to the system? You've seen them all in glorious Technicolor over the past decade. Christ if you don't understand how unequal we are now after the financial crash and umpteen wars founded on ignorance, you never will. To make Capitalism work well, we require inequality, exploitation, war, theft and selfishness.....not love and the brotherhood of man, that's why leftist governments always make a mess of the economy, they stop Capitalism working efficiently. You must make a choice, the status quo, with all the negatives for our descendants and the obscene wealth differentials....or make a start on a different kind of society which values nature and puts community before "self" and wastefulness. |
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27 Jul 15 - 01:00 PM (#3726519) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome Crikey, Teribus, it looks like we have both said the same thing in different ways! Both the unions and the management need to understand that working together is the best way forward. If you and I can agree on that then surely there must be a way forward :-) Ake, you are over simplifying. Capitalism can work well if done properly, A responsible capitalist realises that he must look after his workforce as well as his investments in just the same way that a responsible union leader must realise that he must look after his employers investment as well as his members. It need not be based on inequality, strife and the demisisation of one class or another. The more sensible leaders on both sides of the fence can see that. It just takes time for things to even out. |
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27 Jul 15 - 01:02 PM (#3726520) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome demisisation ? Demonisation! Damn spill chucker... |
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27 Jul 15 - 01:23 PM (#3726526) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus "Capitalism doesn't do equality." Don't know if you have noticed Akenaton - but neither does nature or life. Dave the Gnome, I cannot imagine why you are so surprised. |
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27 Jul 15 - 01:37 PM (#3726536) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome :-D |
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27 Jul 15 - 06:36 PM (#3726586) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Richard Bridge Teri - it seems that some propose civilisation, but you oppose it. You confess to your evil. |
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28 Jul 15 - 03:08 AM (#3726626) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton " Don't know if you have noticed Akenaton - but neither does nature or life."............... certainly have Mr T, and I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. "Equality" is a myth, a bargaining chip.....I visualise a society built on status, not wealth or power. Status according to contribution. |
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28 Jul 15 - 03:19 AM (#3726629) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST Is that the sort of status that brings respect, or something different ? |
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28 Jul 15 - 03:56 AM (#3726634) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus There have been numerous civilisations Mr Bridge - equality featured in none of them. We are all supposedly equal in the eyes of God (Kinda difficult to prove) We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law, but that is a myth as you get precisely what "law" you can afford to pay for. |
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28 Jul 15 - 03:56 AM (#3726635) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Teribus There have been numerous civilisations Mr Bridge - equality featured in none of them. We are all supposedly equal in the eyes of God (Kinda difficult to prove) We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law, but that is a myth as you get precisely what "law" you can afford to pay for. |
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28 Jul 15 - 03:59 AM (#3726636) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton Social Status. When I was young, differentials in wages or living standards were nothing like the obscene scale we see today, Doctors, Public Service people, Teachers, Ministers, were paid only slightly more than labourers, but their status in society was higher. Status could be obtained without further education, but depending on how each individual contributed to the wellbeing of society. My Uncle had no education other than primary schooling, yet he was renowned as an exceptionally hard worker, a friend and helper to all, and most importantly a enthusiastic contributor to the weekly village concerts, which were the hub of our social life. His status was as high as any in the community, and tho' he died in 1980, he is still spoken of warmly by all who know our family. |
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28 Jul 15 - 04:52 AM (#3726646) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: akenaton Honesty.....I have never voted Tory in my life, but if I truly believed that capitalism could never be overturned, I would vote Conservative at every opportunity. The "liberal" left are simply in the business of creating a social and bureaucratic madhouse......They are incapable of managing the economic system to any degree whatsoever. The people have illustrated over and over again that they do not want "socialism", especially "socialism" within a capitalist system(turkeys and Christmas)......The power lies in the accumulation of money and "socialism" will certainly make most people poorer financially. As MrT has illustrated social policies based on "equality" are a special sort of soft left madness, which, if ever they are allowed full rein, will lead to another "Decline and Fall" |
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28 Jul 15 - 12:57 PM (#3726724) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich equality of opportunity, equality under the law - equal rights. may be too idealistic for some but surely an objective worth trying to attain. financial equality i don't think would be possible or desirable, but given the current situation in the west we have to do something to challenge such wild and illegal inequality. if you don't fancy equality - how would a bit more fairness suit you? |
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28 Jul 15 - 01:16 PM (#3726728) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Dave the Gnome The problem here, achmelvich, is that the main proponent of social inequality bases his arguments on the fact that he believes a whole section of society should be denied the benefits of the majority simply because they were born different. I am in full agreement that many equalities are unachievable but there are those which are easy to resolve and make perfect sense to many. It is the type of fairness that would offer equal opportunity to many who are currently denied it but he would continue to rail against this type of fairness to further his political agenda. Sadly he is a countryman of yours and, knowing that the vast majority of Scots are very fair minded, you have my commiserations on having to put up with such blatant prejudice. |
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28 Jul 15 - 02:26 PM (#3726750) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: Bonzo3legs No, because the choice of leaders is not "diverse" enough. |
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28 Jul 15 - 06:48 PM (#3726809) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich you what? |
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29 Jul 15 - 03:00 AM (#3726873) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,Musket sickle of his hammer I've got a flat cap, a greyhound and use black pudding in recipes. I still have my pit tallies (stole them on my last shift..) and they are hung in my study above a safety lamp I bought from an ex copper who stole it from our pit during the strike. How working sodding class do you want? Mind you, I also have a T shirt with a picture of Atlee on it, with the words "What would Clem do?" The candidate hopefuls may wish to lead a party with fluid values and differing aspirations but they also wish to deliver a government. That means attracting votes across the spectrum, and even if they don't but get enough votes anyway, be a government for all. It kind of gravitates to the middle. Being "working class" or whatever that means in this, not the previous century is not a key to any ideal. Both UKIP and, in Scotland, SNP claim support "of the working classes." One party would have us leave The EU regardless and the other bases their whole message on remaining part of Europe. One party decries The NHS and social equality, the other bases its manifesto on it. What is clear is that votes, whether internal to a party or in general elections and referendums are based on the opinion of the voter, regardless of their situation or grasp of the issues. Reading some of the usual suspects on here, I'm seeing how democracy is the best system only because nobody can think of anything better. Anyway, I decided to come out of retirement through boredom and start a new job next week. Looks like I'm a worker again. Where's my moleskin trousers? |
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29 Jul 15 - 07:03 PM (#3727057) Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid? From: GUEST,achmelvich why care about (exactly) wot class you are? everyone you meet will be a wee bit more middle or working class than you. it really does not matter. what matters is good intent and compassion |