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22 Aug 15 - 01:06 PM (#3732401) Subject: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome I go away for 24 hours and the thread I created about civil debating is trashed by an uncivil mas-debate. No wonder I call them wankers. Sorry all who suggested that I should not resort to abuse but there was just no excuse to trash a thread that I had managed to keep civil until I left off to help my daughters move house. I really am quite upset about it :-( Still, one good thing. The move went far easier than I thought. It is all in there. They are spending one more night here and tomorrow we will get everything in a better semblance of order. Thanks to Raedwulf, Bill D and Kevin for some brilliant postings. Thanks to Raggytash and Steve Shaw for trying to settle things in my absence. To those of you who either did not read the article I linked or read it and did not understand. Shame on you. It will be a long time before I try to converse civily with any of you again. Mods, thank you for your earlier quiet policing anyway. I can see your job was too difficult in the end. Could you please ensure this message stays up even if you have to close the thread at a later stage. |
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22 Aug 15 - 01:14 PM (#3732404) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu Oh! Is that what Guest was on about in "It had to happen"? Sad indeed. I didn't read much of it after it got trolled. |
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22 Aug 15 - 01:30 PM (#3732405) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raedwulf I hope the daughters moved as they should. Is there checkmate in the offing? Or have the bishops had a synod & decided to be revolting? ;-) |
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22 Aug 15 - 02:05 PM (#3732412) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Bill D Several of those who cannot abstain from carrying on their battles are also registered members. It IS possible to do all their back & forth in PMs.... but I suppose not nearly as ...ummm... satisfying? Thanks for trying, Dave... |
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22 Aug 15 - 02:29 PM (#3732416) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST I thought that "civil debate on Mudcat" was an example of an oxymoron. |
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22 Aug 15 - 02:30 PM (#3732417) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu Well said, Bill. |
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22 Aug 15 - 02:30 PM (#3732418) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raggytash Eh up Mucka we can still talk about the beer and the weather. It's been quite a humid day today. Loads of singing and music in town as you would expect. May toddle down tonight for another pint or two. |
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22 Aug 15 - 02:35 PM (#3732423) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Not been to the folk fest for years, Raggy. I went to the goth festival a couple of times and once it clashed with a folky event. Goth morris was brilliant. Have a good evening whatever you decide to do. |
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22 Aug 15 - 07:06 PM (#3732450) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton The thread was started by a troll who could not answer the points put to him. It was ruined by idiots discussing beer. |
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22 Aug 15 - 07:11 PM (#3732452) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST "No wonder I call them wankers." Sigh! |
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22 Aug 15 - 07:49 PM (#3732455) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw It is inconceivable that anyone discussing beer is an idiot. For beer is one of the most perfect creations of mankind, right up there with the paintings of Caravaggio and the late piano sonatas of Beethoven. Any thread below the line that is interrupted by talk of any of these things is a thread enriched |
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22 Aug 15 - 07:50 PM (#3732456) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Except for American beer. |
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22 Aug 15 - 08:13 PM (#3732460) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Rapparee You obviously haven't had Polygamy Porter, Bitch Creek, Moose Drool, any of the various IPAs, Fire House, Belligerent Ass, Midnight Satin, Grog, Trout Slayer...there are now literally hundreds of American beers. Some of them have taken, year after year, international awards. In fact, one of the larger industries in town is Western Malting and yes, right here in the middle of LDS country, is a malting plant that supplies malt to most of the breweries in the Pacific Northwest and it's expanding. Coors, Budweiser -- forget about 'em. Have a good beer! |
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22 Aug 15 - 08:28 PM (#3732462) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Well we have literally THOUSANDS of British beers and they are nearly all utter shite. In our erudite beer posts here, we are trying to winkle out the few good ones, nay, superb ones. Anyone can come up with a list. And, as I think I said, probably in some bloody thread or other that some yank shut down, do not, under pain of being severely scoffed at, mention any beer that is neither cask-conditioned nor bottle-conditioned. The pasteurised, yeastless bottled beer has got about as much to do with real beer as the Linda McCartney sausage has to do with proper meat. I haven't checked your list as yet, but I may well do so, in which case stand by thy bloody musket... |
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22 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM (#3732464) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: McGrath of Harlow When people think a thread has degenerated to a condition of spinning around repetitively, and petty insults are flying, there has been a Mudcat tradition of changing the subject, typically by posting recipes. Talking about beer is an interesting enough variant on that. Sometimes the technique can be misapplied when a discussion actually is at an interesting stage, but it strikes me as a basically good technique, and a better alternative than waiting for a mudelf to pull the plug. If people can actually know when to button their lips and avoid responding in kind to what they see as provocations we wouldn't need either. And it really would help if we all adopted a policy of "what goes on in a thread stays in the thread", and restrain ourselves from carrying on feuds from thread to thread - which is particularly irritating to those who didn't read the earlier threads in question. |
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22 Aug 15 - 08:37 PM (#3732465) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: McGrath of Harlow Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST Date: 22 Aug 15 - 07:11 PM "No wonder I call them wankers." Sigh! Actually "mass-debate" is quite a good pun. |
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22 Aug 15 - 08:53 PM (#3732467) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Yebbut at the end of the day, to coin a cliche, we're all human beings. Too many rules and restraints spoil the broth. What we need to do a lot more is to trust the complete idiots who post here to continue to make utter arses of themselves. They hardly need the help of our insults, do they? I could name names, but I don't want to spoil the sentiment of this post. I do reserve the right, however... ;-) |
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22 Aug 15 - 09:23 PM (#3732469) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST Enjoying a few Sierra Nevada Pale Ales while watching some real football on the tube - no, not that pansy game they call football in the UK. |
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22 Aug 15 - 09:27 PM (#3732470) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Rapparee Earlier this year the Brewers Association reported that there were 3,464 breweries of all sizes operating in the US. Of course, "good beer" depends upon your taste. Beers are both bottle and cask conditioned (and otherwise, but I shan't mention those). I shall NOT drink "light" or "lite" beer, those horrific parodies of what's good. Oh, yes, cider is being consumed more in the US. It's one of the fastest growing beverage consumption areas. |
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22 Aug 15 - 09:39 PM (#3732472) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Cider has alcohol in it. Its merits stop right there. Moving swiftly on. I was in the real Sierra Nevada two weeks ago, the one in Andalucia. it is an area not noted for its amazing beers, though I must say that, at 104F, a couple of bottles of icy-cold Cruz Campo work wonders. Sacrilege, I know. But one does have to survive. |
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22 Aug 15 - 10:34 PM (#3732478) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Bill D I have had Sam Smith's ale... and Riggwelter and a few dozen more from the UK..(even from Wales) and some were truly delights.... but I can buy, 5 minutes from my house, a couple of dozen American beers & ales that compare favorably with almost any in the world..(. except several Trappist ales from Belgium.).. which are also available 5 min. away... when I can afford them. I have tried, since 1977 when I moved east from Kansas where Coors was considered high class, perhaps 800-1000 different beers/ales... some wonderful and some not fit for pouring on a burning copy of Rise Up Singing..(but who'd want to?) I just had a bottle of 8-Point IPA, and will happily have more soon. We gots us some real good stuff 'round these parts now.... |
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22 Aug 15 - 11:27 PM (#3732483) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Ed T "a very entertaining, sexually wrought, wistful romp throughout the beaches and streets of Marseille" |
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23 Aug 15 - 03:20 AM (#3732495) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Glad you noticed, Kevin :-) I suspect most people did but unnamed Guest of 22 Aug 15 - 07:11 PM either did not realise or chose to ignore the pun anyway. As to The thread was started by a troll who could not answer the points put to him. Thank you for giving us the perfect example of the type of behavior that got the thread closed. I am not sure I agree with you on Ciders, Steve. I had some very nice still ciders at Moria last weekend but, in the main, the ones generally available are not good. I vary with my beers. There are times I like nothing better than some traditional ales, preferable dark. Other times I enjoy blondes or many of the fine continental lagers - Usually Belgian or Czech but a couple of the Polish ones are very pleasant. The local 'craft beer' shops (where did that expression come from?) do have a good range of all sorts of beers, including American ones. I enjoy most in the right circumstances :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 03:25 AM (#3732496) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Fair point Rapparee. I have had moose drool many times in The Mangy Moose when skiing at Jackson Hole. It does give me a thick head, but drinking at 7,000' may have something to do with it. In fact, about ten years ago, I found myself on stage jamming with The Clumsy Lovers. Good night, what I recall of it. Anyway, not a bad morning here at Whitby. Going for a nice walk shortly round the harbour and up the hill to get some smoked fish to take home tonight. The hotel has offered to keep it in their fridges for me till I drive home. Nice of them. Wish you were here, Luv & hugs Musket. |
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23 Aug 15 - 03:30 AM (#3732497) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Raggytash Musket, a group of us are catching a train from Whitby to Glaisdale to escape the day tourists today at 13.03. If you join us you'll find me ....... the guy with a raggy tash |
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23 Aug 15 - 03:48 AM (#3732499) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Sadly mate, I need to be back at home by tea time. Just going to a lunch time session c/w with fizzy pop or coffee then hit the road. Nice thought. On other matters, I notice there has been a thread, now closed called irony. It's a pity it's closed, it either needs opening or fully deleting as Keith started it to take a comment by me out of context yet it was closed before I could reply. It would be like this one being closed before Keith could refute a claim that he lost his teaching job after being caught sniffing girls' bike saddles. Same thing really. |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:39 AM (#3732510) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton See what I mean?....that is the sort of thing the closed thread should have been addressing, foul, groundless abuse. My remarks earlier had no reflection on the quality of beer, I no longer drink alcohol but have sunk a few pints of Youngers Heavy in my day. The owner of old family firm of Wm Younger and Son, was a friend and customer of mine, he explained the art of brewing to me. Mr Younger unfortunately died recently....Their "logo" was an old gentleman with a white beard and stick....."Father William". Regarding the closed thread, I take Mr McGrath's point, but beer was introduced to the discussion fairly early on and at regular intervals thereafter.....usually when the "aficionados" were getting the worst of the debate, run out of answers, or simply necked one bottle too many!..... :0) |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:45 AM (#3732512) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford So Dave, (sigh) you will revert to insult and abuse of those you disagree with, in company no doubt with Greg, Raggy, Musket and Jim. (Sigh) Along with the rest of Mudcat, I will continue to eschew such behaviour, relying instead on knowledge based discussion. Because I can Dave. Musket, I gave a link so that your quote could be seen in its intended, hilarious context. |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:48 AM (#3732513) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Raggytash Now where were we. Oh yes I'd mentioned Elgoods that was disappointing, they used to brew a brown ale that was superb back when I was a lad. The next was Forge Brewery (Bideford)Hartland Blonde at 4/0% Then Hobsons (Cleobury Mortimer)Old Prickly at 4.2% then we tried a Hop Back (Salisbury) Citra at 4.0% |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:18 AM (#3732517) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw In a single post a fellow bemoans foul, groundless abuse then accuses those he disagrees with, completely groundlessly, of posting under the influence of drink. Nice piece of rank hypocrisy there, I'd say. The Hop Back brewery makes Summer Lightning, a very nice bottle-conditioned beer. I have a vague feeling that the chap who developed that brew also had a hand in developing some of Dartmoor Brewery's excellent beers. A few years ago I had a memorable night out at that brewery, then at the Plume of Feathers in Princetown, with a bunch of musicians on a "educational visit". :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:59 AM (#3732521) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton Nice bit of observation I would say! |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:07 AM (#3732523) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raggytash Moving on we also sampled Humpty Dumpty (Reedham) Reedham Gold 3.6% then a Kelburn (Glasgow)Jaguar at 4.5% |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:11 AM (#3732524) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Backwoodsman Bloody hell, Raggy, how are you managing to type coherently through the haze of alcohol? You must be pissed out of your brains by now! 👍😄 |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:12 AM (#3732525) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton Oh for god's sake stop digging Raggytash, I can smell the magma. |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:17 AM (#3732526) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raggytash We were not on pints Backwoodsman. I didn't see any Magma there. In fact I don't think the Troubadour Brewery had any of their beers there. |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:36 AM (#3732527) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Big Al Whittle actually Dave its me who owes you an apology. things were going okay until i made a very genuine query as to whether thinking about sources of historical knowledge had changed since i took my open university degree, some forty years ago. i didn't mean to set the cat amongst the pigeons. i'm sorry. mea culpa. mea maxima culpa. |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:41 AM (#3732528) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST Don't be alarmed Al, it takes very little to rattle some cages. |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:59 AM (#3732532) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw I haven't tasted or smelled any magma lately, at least not since I was up Mount Etna in June, but I'm inordinately fond of the lava of the Cuillins, aka Talisker. Sorry to drift the thread away from beer. A temporary distraction only. :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 07:05 AM (#3732533) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Musket Is this a good time to reiterate that some historians should be ashamed of themselves, promoting a false revisionist pro establishment view of WW1? Thought not. Max Hastings, I can understand. Only Keith and his mate Michael Gove ever saw him as a historian, whilst as a hack, his output has always been sensational and geared towards selling copy through controversy. It is sad that some more academic second hand account merchants jumped on the "can I have a knighthood too?" bandwagon. You see Keith, you are pointing out something that you think is wrong and hoping everybody thinks I am stupid but unfortunately for you, I stand by it and a hell of a lot of others seem to agree with the stance, including some (gosh😳) historians. Oh, and Baldrick. Boom Boom Boom Boom thick Boom Boom Boom etc Boom Boom Welbeck Henrietta. Cracking ale. My head was certainly cracking this morning, although I was mixing it a bit.. |
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23 Aug 15 - 07:09 AM (#3732534) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Does anybody round here apart from me drink wine? OK, I'll get me coat... :-( |
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23 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM (#3732536) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Big Al Whittle no but that really is the main bone of contention between Keith and the rest of us when you think about it. i had a grandad who fought in the Boer War and the first world war. and to be honest , i grew up surrounded by tales of how the soldiers were fighting on two fronts - the enemy and the insane bloody orders. and to honest - they were backed up by the fragments uttered by my dad who fought under Montgomery round Caen. these were primary sources by blokes who were there. and as far as i know - no historian solicited their views. on our course, we studied industrialisation, and we were urged to talk to people who had worked in the victorian factories, many of which were still in operation. weigh it with contemporary accounts, rather than accept analyses. maybe thinking has changed. perhaps society has changed so much that people cannot really access first hand accounts of history as easily as our generation. My gandmothers sister was born in the 1850's. i knew her as a very small boy. now there is someone who could have known the survivors of Waterloo. this is no longer possible of course. perhaps that is a simple explanation of why Keith is so much and so often at variance with the rest of us. thinking about the study of history has perhaps changed. nowadays we are at the mercy of historians and their interpretations of the facts. he takes a keen interest. whereas we have our vivid memories of people who lived hard and were much put upon. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:14 AM (#3732555) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford Musket, Hastings was just one of many historians I referenced. Other historians call him an historian too, and BBC puts him at the top of their list of "ten leading historians of WW1" All of you could find nothing written in the last twenty years opposing my views. Al, and as far as i know - no historian solicited their views. They have. It is their job. perhaps that is a simple explanation of why Keith is so much and so often at variance with the rest of us. My views are mainstream. By "us" you mean a very left wing group of Mudcatters. Your views are worth every bit as much as mine, but hardly mainstream. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:29 AM (#3732557) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Big Al Whittle okay luv! but take it from me, your mainstream has flowed in the wrong direction. and no one asked my My dad or my Grandad their view of the relief of Ladysmith or Villers bocage. they would certainly have mentioned it. In fact we were on holiday on year when my Mum spent and enormous amount, seven quid! for an account of the campaign of the Guards Armoured Division's Normandy campaign - she thought it would be a treat! he said it was bollocks from start to end. very dry, whereas the experience itself was anything but... filled with incident, in fact! If you weren't there you could never understand. Many years later I was teaching with a guy who was in the same campaign. he said HE knew exactly what my father meant. ..pity the truth uttered by a primary source evades your comprehension! ps I do not regard myself as a left winger. only a little left of moderates like Pol Pot. but I think its you that brings that side out in me. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:38 AM (#3732558) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford .pity the truth uttered by a primary source evades your comprehension! It does not, and historians use primary resources to write history. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:56 AM (#3732561) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Bill D Many historians use whatever suits the winner to write history... I could give a dozen examples of distortions of history by those who want only one viewpoint expressed. This is exacerbated when no one can even agree on which sources ARE primary. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:57 AM (#3732562) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Am I the only person around here who makes Bellinis? I'll get me coat.... :-( |
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23 Aug 15 - 10:17 AM (#3732568) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Big Al Whittle my posting on this thread was actually intended as an olive branch to you Keith. Just suggesting that maybe there is a valid reason why we all disagree with you, so often. But you really are in a tear arsed hurry to piss everyone off. I don't understand you, at all. You've not engaged with anything I've said, you've just dismissed it out of hand as untrue and unworthy, when I have explained that the point of view i arrived at was a result of my Open University Education and my family background. I'm not sure where your point of view comes from. are you? I think you should maybe think seriously. Is it a general anti-social desire to hurt? I'm sure there are ideas out there that could cut to the heart of a right winger. But are you really right wing? Do you really revere the word of these historians? or do you just like the idea of cutting? |
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23 Aug 15 - 10:31 AM (#3732572) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raedwulf Primary source does not equal "good history", any more then secondary source equals "bad history". All primary source means is "eye-witness". It doesn't mean that Al's granddad had more knowledge, a more valid opinion, an unbiased opinion; it just means that he was part of it when it was happening. Make your own judgements about whether being close to events makes for an accurate assessment of what actually happened. As for "false revisionist pro establishment view of WW1", I find myself on the opposite side to Musket again (great-great-granddad was German, Musket, if you want to put me in the pickelhaube! ;-) ). I've been interested in WWI for 30+ years. Yes, my granddad fought, he was wounded twice, the second time in both shoulders. In fact, the first time (if memory serves) was about a week after he was sent to France. Nice going. But he died when I was 3, so no, I've never spoken to a primary source & I never will. The generals, in all armies, were neither blameless professionals nor butchers & bunglers. They fought a war that had never really been fought before (the ACW & the Franco-Prussian, the only big industrialised wars, were not on the same scale), without the experience or the knowledge to do so, in an age when everyone at every level of society was, well, an amateur. Time & motion, professionalism & all that jazz hadn't really been thought about. Most importantly, they had to command vast armies without the communications necessary to understand what was happening or to be able to control them in any reasonable time-scale. No radio communication for a start. The likes of Montgomery, Rommel, Eisenhower, etc got their "on the job" training in WWI. WWII would have been, well, WWI without WWI! If it's "revisionist" to suggest that, whatever the job they did, the likes of Haig, Foch, Hindenburg, et al did the best they could in the circumstances, then I'm a revisionist. False? No, I don't think so. I've read the apologists like Terraine & Corrigan, I've read the "Butchers & bunglers" (MacDonald, Horne, and too many to mention, since it was a popular tack through the 50's, 60's, and 70's). I've even read the liars, such as Alan Clark. The "truth", insofar as there can be a truth, lies somewhere between. I do think that more distance & less "eye-witness" emotion has allowed more recent historians to make a better assessment of what really happened. You can read A.G.Lee, you can read V.M.Yeates. They were both accredited fighter aces in WWI. They have fairly opposite points of view. I don't know that their involvement makes them better historians than F.J.Bloggs, born 50 years afterwards! |
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23 Aug 15 - 10:53 AM (#3732575) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Rapparee I just returned, less than a week ago, from a very nice journey in Alsace, Bavaria, and the Black Forest. In Alsace there was a family reunion of my wife's family, and the Alsatians couldn't have been nicer. I drank a lot of beer and wine and, yes, schnapps. I didn't find a bad lot in the lot. There was one pils in Bavaria of which I found the taste a bit weak, but even that was better than Coors or Budweiser (what isn't?). But someone mentioned Talisker. I do hope that you crossed yourself and made obeisance when you wrote that holy name! As for historians, remember that the victors write the histories. I find John Keegan's "Face of Battle" to be a superior work in its field, but even following the research he put into it we don't know the experiences of the average member of the PBI on either side. Even those Brits who served in Malay or the Yanks in Korea (and even Vietnam) are getting thin on the ground. And many, if not most, don't want to talk about what they really experienced with those who weren't there. I know; I'm one of them, and it's simply not possible to convey the experience so that it is truly understood. But history can teach us what to do and, perhaps more importantly, what not to do. That is, if we have a balanced account and we understand it and we actually put its lessons into practice. Otherwise we are the French Army in 1914, resplendent in straight red and blue lines, charging the machine guns of the army in feldgrau, or either side the in US Civil War charging uphill again massed unit fire and artillery. As the man said, "Gallant, but it's not war." And these examples, taken from the histories of war, apply in many other areas. The US ignored the fact that the Cuban embargo simply didn't work for more than a half a century. Britain had its Cromwellian clearances and then the ones in Scotland and Acadia. I shan't even go into the abuses by industries! Enough of this! Musket, I'm glad that you've visited my neck of the woods. I gave up downhill quite a while back when the lift lines got too long and the skiers/snowboarders become to dangerous to others. Next time you're around here let me know and I'll set you up at Pebble, one of the best little-known areas in the West. Or, you can stay at my place and do cross-country on the golf course out back or use Mink Creek. |
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23 Aug 15 - 10:55 AM (#3732576) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Greg F. Jaysus, not another extended concert by Kieth And The Living Hack Historians!! Some folks never learn to let sleeping clowns lie...... |
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23 Aug 15 - 10:57 AM (#3732577) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Megan L Think for a moment of the question "Why did the chicken cross the road?" There were two men who witnessed the event. One man on each side of the road. Now on the side the chicken left from the pavement (kerb)dipped down a little to a garden hedge. The man on that side stated emphatically "the chicken crossed the road to escape from a cat that was coming through the hedge." On the other side of the street a farmer had been carrying a sack of grain with a small hole in it had stopped for a while to talk to a friend. The witness on this side of the road stated equally emphatically. "The chicken crossed the road to eat the grain. Each statement may have contained an element of the truth, while a third person may have been able to say that the hen house was on the side with the grain. Nigel Tranter (writer of many novels based on historical characters) once told my brother when looking at history always read accounts from at least three views,the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:04 AM (#3732584) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Rapparee Very good advice, Megan. I myself use the AP, UPI, CBC, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, Yonhap, Reuters, and others when I read the news online. Then, for wrapping fish entrails, I subscribe to the local paper. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:08 AM (#3732587) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Bollocks. They were all in agreement that the chicken crossed the road to ask Col Sanders for political asylum. Rather releived to see Raedwulf thinking he disagrees with me. I would like to leave it at that but have sneaking feeling that if he understood my stance, he would be able to say whether he agrees or not, rather than the Keith style "I'll disagree with him anyway." The Donkeys. Written by a historian, apparently. If he hadn't developed that brain tumour and snuffed it, he could have qualified to be on Keith's little list. 😂😂😂 Yeah Steve, usually manage to bag vineyard visits when on holiday, and spent our honeymoon searching California for the perfect Pinot. (Found it a couple of years later in South Africa but I digress.) Snag is, the beer references seem to be by those of us at Whitby festival. Beer, basically. Getting in touch with my masculine side. A bit like my feminine side but could do with a shave. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:11 AM (#3732588) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,HiLo Primary sources are essential to historians. I know of no historian who does not consult them. However, eye witness accounts are sometimes not very helpful as a number of people describing the same event will see it very differently. Diaries, documents, maps, contemporary newspaper accounts, cartoons, letters and so on, are all primary sources and historians consult as many as possible. As for "revisionist" history..it should be kept in mind that over the past number of years more and more documents have become available for study as have letters and diaries. As a teacher of history I would not tell students that eyewitness accounts always trump historians..I would tell them to read and think critically, regardless of the source, that is objectivity. Historians are not neutral but they can be objective. What I see a lot of here are people who are not historians misusing history in order to support outdated views. As to historians having "agendas", yes some do, but they are not highly respected by their peers. Good, historians, inform and enlighten us, read them and learn and enjoy. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:43 AM (#3732594) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Modette Can we please reject any truth in the oft-quoted 'history is written by the victors/winners' assertion? Of course, some of it is, but much is also written by those who were 'defeated' or who were non-participants. The quote is also based upon the mistaken belief that all history is concerned with conflict of some kind when, quite clearly, it is not. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:44 AM (#3732595) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Derrick I agree Megan,little or nothing in this world is truly black or white it is usually a shade of grey with possibly a hint of another colour. Your perspective of an event depends on where you are standing,someone in a different place sees it differently only by combining what each one sees can a reasonable agreement on what actually happened be arrived at. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:47 AM (#3732598) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford Al, I am not being unfriendly, and I am sorry if I come across as that. I'm not sure where your point of view comes from. are you? It comes from reading history. For the last twenty years at least, there has been agreement about those issues I posted about. You are just shooting the messenger. What you said about "original sources" from your course was correct, and I said at once that I agreed. |
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23 Aug 15 - 11:52 AM (#3732601) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Am I the only person round here who loves to pour neat limoncello over my sorbet? OK, as soon as I find me coat... :-( |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:04 PM (#3732606) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton I agree with Hilo, History can only be properly written when all available facts and sources have been examined. An eye witness at the Battle of the Somme(like my grandfather) could never be in possession of such facts. He admired General Haig and had the intelligence never to take part in the 1930's revisionism. "There was no option, it was sacrifice or defeat" he used to say. |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:10 PM (#3732607) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: DMcG Megan/Derrick: a really good example of that can be found by reading some histories of the Scandinavian countries. It is very common to come across (for a made up example) Olaf the Great on one side of the water and Olaf the Terror on the other, when they are one and the same Olaf. Viewpoint is crucial. |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM (#3732611) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome You are forgiven, Al. To mis-quote someone being tortured to death, you know not what you did. :-) One thing I have noticed though, on this thread and the last, you don't need abuse or libel or incivility to close a thread. Just mention history and sure as eggs is eggs, closure will shortly follow. Wonder why? Anyway, did I read somewhere back up the thread someone groundlessly accusing me of abuse? Never mind, I forgive them as well. Which answers someone else's question about what I would do if it happened to me. Everyone can see that I have not used any in either thread so it is obvious that the allegation is nonsense. Just as would any allegation of being a troll, wiping my bum with the wrong hand or drinking girly drinks. Talking of which, yes Steve, I enjoy a drop of the grape juice as well. Just relaxing with a small glass of rather too Rioja as we speak :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM (#3732613) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford Anyway, did I read somewhere back up the thread someone groundlessly accusing me of abuse? No. |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:39 PM (#3732614) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Does no mean no-one made the accusation or that it was not groundless? It's not often a one word answer can be ambiguous but if anyone can do it, it will be on Mudcat! :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:46 PM (#3732616) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton No one accused you of abuse, I said you were a troll....which you obviously are. |
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23 Aug 15 - 12:53 PM (#3732619) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome With no examples of trollish behaviour that is just another unsubstantiated allegation. Yet again, I forgive you. It is obviously nonsense and everyone can see it as such. |
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23 Aug 15 - 01:27 PM (#3732623) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw How's about pouring Baileys over vanilla ice cream which has a dollop of clotted cream on top when it's not even Christmas? Is that forgivable? |
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23 Aug 15 - 01:40 PM (#3732624) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Nah. You would be doomed to discuss historians for an eternity :- P |
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23 Aug 15 - 01:41 PM (#3732625) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton Just one example of many. Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM You are forgiven, Al. To mis-quote someone being tortured to death, you know not what you did. :-) One thing I have noticed though, on this thread and the last, you don't need abuse or libel or incivility to close a thread. Just mention history and sure as eggs is eggs, closure will shortly follow. Wonder why? Anyway, did I read somewhere back up the thread someone groundlessly accusing me of abuse? Never mind, I forgive them as well. Which answers someone else's question about what I would do if it happened to me. Everyone can see that I have not used any in either thread so it is obvious that the allegation is nonsense. Just as would any allegation of being a troll, wiping my bum with the wrong hand or drinking girly drinks. |
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23 Aug 15 - 01:54 PM (#3732628) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome And that is trollish because..? Do you actually understand what an internet troll is? I am more than happy to help if you need help with modern colloquialisms. Free of charge of course. |
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23 Aug 15 - 01:58 PM (#3732630) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raedwulf Mr Mather, I'll agree or disagree with your expressed opinion. The way you express it is too often objectionable, which I always disagree with. Sometimes, I admit, I respond to you in the way you respond to others and, yes, you're quite right, two wrongs don't make a right (not that I expect you to admit that you ever give anyone else just cause...). Given the "revisionist" remark, I don't think it was unreasonable of me to presume that you fall more on the "Butchers" side of the argument. But I phrased what I said carefully (carefully enough that we seem to be talking instead of slanging each other, anyway! ;-) ), because I don't know for sure. Incidentally, we do often... well maybe agree is going a bit far, but we're often on the same side of the argument. More often than you may realise. So, out of curiosity, what do you think, broadly, on WWI? Butchers, blameless, or somewhere betwixt & between? (Incidentally, The Donkeys - written by someone who later happily admitted that he made up at least one very well known quote!) And Ake, I've been known to tell you're being a bloody idiot in public. I've no idea why, but you seem to accept it from me, when you object to it from others. At the minute, you're being a bloody idiot again. Give it a rest, eh? You're not doing yourself any favours, old son. |
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23 Aug 15 - 02:00 PM (#3732631) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton I know exactly what an internet troll is, and you are one...a clumsy and easily spotted one, not dangerous, simply irritating, but one all the same. Anyone reading your post, the one above, will spot three instances of trolling in one post. |
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23 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM (#3732633) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton :0)....Its because I like you Raed!...and your application for Scottish residence sealed it for me. The kilt, brogues and sporran await you. and a great big dram if we ever meet. |
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23 Aug 15 - 02:08 PM (#3732634) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome I think not, but am, as always, willing to be educated. In what way does the post in question indicate that the sole purpose was to cause an argument? I would take Raedwulfs advice if I was you. Or go back to not responding to my posts. Either will be better than digging any deeper. |
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23 Aug 15 - 02:11 PM (#3732635) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton I'll leave the trolls in peace....for now. :0) |
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23 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM (#3732639) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome The last word of someone with no good argument? |
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23 Aug 15 - 02:54 PM (#3732651) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Musket Err.. Raedwolf. Just one point. Of course there are many but just a small one. You said Mr Mather. There is a Musket called Dr Mather, to afford him title as you insist on using it, albeit wrongly, but unless I am mistaken, I am the only Musket on this thread? And I am not Dr Mather or indeed Mr Mather. (I know he doesn't use his title other than in academia. I do but there again I enjoy profession too.) Now, I could also have just said fuck off, but I'd prefer to give you respect, even though your outpourings don't seem to deserve it. I love wine but not too keen on the whining I read on Mudcat these days. |
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23 Aug 15 - 03:06 PM (#3732655) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome I have just set my two grandsons, aged 4 and 6, talking on a party call to their Mum and Dad. The result sounds very similar to these threads. Lots of noise and whingeing with very little sense. |
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23 Aug 15 - 03:40 PM (#3732663) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Am I even allowed to be forgiven for chucking an excessively large amount of sherry in the trifle, a la Futtock's End? Anyone for tennis? :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:07 PM (#3732668) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Any excessively large amount of sherry is instantly forgiven by me. Which end your Futtocks are is not relevant. |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:31 PM (#3732676) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raedwulf Whichever Musket I happen to be answering... See? That right there is one very big problem. It's well known that there's three or four people who post under the soubriquet of Musket. Apparently, you're not Ian Mather (who I have run across before (and we have violently disagreed in the past). Now there's you, and you sound just like him. Max & Joe, and Uncle Mudcat Cobbley & all, have always been very much against restricting Guest privileges, despite all the arguments about it over the years (years before any Musket appeared). You know who you're talking to, because (barring Guests masquerading as members) there's only one person who can legitimately post as.... Raedwulf, Dave the Gnome, akenaton, Whoever. Presuming that we don't share our passwords with anyone else (I don't). Right now, I've no idea who I'm talking to. Except that you're effectively anonymous. I could, of course, add a string of insults, of sneering, but what would be the point? Forgive me if I've mis-remembered the name, but I refer to Ian Mather, claimed doctor & etc, to distinguish a very odious Musket from less odious Muskets. I'm not, right now, in the mood to track back through past postings to verify whether I've screwed up or not (entirely possible, I admit!). Why does the Musket clan have a problem with adopting unique handles? Most other users seem to be able to manage it. |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:45 PM (#3732679) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Raedwulf But this is Steve Shaw being mischievous, not Raedwulf (sorry, mate). So there's more than one person who can "legitimately" post as you. I promise I'll never do this again! |
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23 Aug 15 - 04:48 PM (#3732680) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raedwulf As I said, Steve, legitimately. Bastard. (See what I did there? ;-) ) |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:06 PM (#3732684) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST One of the joys of Christmas-egg nog and your choice of spirits. Everything else is a plus. |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:08 PM (#3732685) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Trouble is there are some people too thick to see the joke and will assume that you are really calling someone a bastard, Raedwulf. The legitimacy of their claims may bar sinister conversations. OK, OK, I have done with that line... |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM (#3732686) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Raggytash More about the beer festival tomorrow boys and girls |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM (#3732687) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu "I'll leave the trolls in peace....for now. :0) " Hahahahahahaa! That is fucking hilarious!!!! Ake, yer so fulla shit yer eyes are brown you troll of repeated renown. You've been at it for years yet you have the balls (sorry, it's just a saying) to post that? Sigh |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:21 PM (#3732690) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton Come on gnu you know I never mock the afflicted, sleep...sleep. |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:22 PM (#3732691) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Thanks for seeing the idiocy, gnu. Gnight, gnight. I was in desperate need of a brandy due to lower intestine problems, Raggy. I cannot talk about good beer at the mo. You don't want any more details. Honest! |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:28 PM (#3732694) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket You see, red wolf answers his own question. By assuming who you are addressing, you bring your prejudice to the fore about that person. That's why three of us, all old mates, all sad singers etc decided to share a log in. We got the idea from Musket who had a patient he spoke to on the phone about his problem with his heart and at the end, the patient said "Thank you. It is nice to have a doctor concentrate on my heart complaint rather than speak to my wheel chair and associated visible problems." It was after Keith A Hole of Hertford trawled threads in the music section to find things to use against Ian whilst at the same time, Jack the Sailor found a snippet against me in my other log in. Fuck 'em. It's great to read Keith and Akenhateon squawk about multiple personality. I met Keith once at a folk club, before I ever became a Musket. Lovely to read his "I guarantee I am right when I say I have never met you." Not that I asked for his autograph, you understand... |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:36 PM (#3732697) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome I must say, I often find it difficult to spot who is who but I love the concept. There are loads of tossers who post with multiple names but nothing seems to be said about them. Yet 3 people post with the same name and the usual suspects crap themselves. Keep it up, Musket(s) but I doubt if anything will ever be done about the ludicrous situation that caused the tri-partite morph :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:48 PM (#3732700) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu Oh... I remember the old days. When men were men and women were whatever the wanted to be and trolls were beaten unmercifully by 'the herd'. I recall one thread. It was a masterpiece of troll tromping. I must seek it out. It was fun, in a twisted way. |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM (#3732701) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu My favourite MC thread. |
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23 Aug 15 - 05:53 PM (#3732702) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket True.. It can be difficult to spot, even for moderators as the main reason we know each other is through NHS circles and the NHS Net VPN that we all have on our iPads polls out onto the Internet through proxy servers, or put another way, one of half a dozen static IP addresses. If moderators ever start moderating, (and after Musket emailed me the contents of a PM he had recently from Joe Offer, I doubt there is hope..) then there would be no need for this. I notice Ian uses Musket occasionally in music threads. I use my other log in for decent debate. |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:05 PM (#3732705) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Doug Chadwick Even if the members of Team Musket have the same general outlook on life, there must surely be times when the views of one Musket contradict the views of another. As the owner of a unique Mudcat identity, I would be very wary of letting others put out statements which appear to come from me. DC |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:07 PM (#3732707) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu "... after Musket emailed me the contents of a PM he had recently from Joe Offer..." Sigh... gnightgnu. |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:20 PM (#3732710) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Yeah. Musket can be a bit of a twat at times. If someone is sad enough to notice, we contradict each other all the time. I find it hilarious. Musket isn't a person so how anyone can be wary of statements is beyond my / our / Gaia comprehension. To be fair, we could have found a better name because one of us had already started using it and some assume it is him. Makes it all the funnier for me really. Gnu. Don't let the bed bugs bite. |
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23 Aug 15 - 07:16 PM (#3732726) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Doug Chadwick Makes it all the funnier for me really. There we have it, I think. As I understand it, Team Musket is claimed to be a deliberate confusion as a defence against those who might attack the individuals. Any fault lies with others and the ruse would not be required if 'they' would only play within the rules. Despite these lofty claims, I suggest that, in truth, it is no more than a silly jape, a schoolboy wheeze, a way of having a laugh at the expense of the rest of us. For myself, I am tired of it. It does Mudcat no favours. It is time that the members of Team Musket grew up and started acting like adults. DC |
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23 Aug 15 - 07:30 PM (#3732728) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu I re-read that thread I linked and it's fun... here is my fav post... says it all... Subject: RE: Eminem Rules From: Big Mick - PM Date: 10 May 01 - 11:52 PM I told y'all this worked better than arguin' with these folks!! You are all brilliant........I love this thread!!! Mick |
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23 Aug 15 - 08:00 PM (#3732734) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu When you eat your Smarties, do you eat the red ones last? |
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23 Aug 15 - 08:04 PM (#3732735) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu Smartie up! |
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23 Aug 15 - 08:12 PM (#3732738) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: gnu Notice the container from Canada. That's the one you could play like a Kazoo when it was empty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk2WfYkgfCk |
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23 Aug 15 - 08:25 PM (#3732740) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST John Coltrane's masterwork, A Love Supreme, was only played once in live concert. This portion is the only surviving film of that 1965 performance. "A Love Supreme" by John Coltrane |
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23 Aug 15 - 08:31 PM (#3732745) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Come along now, Doug. You castigate the Musket project for being shaky over identity, yet you, I and everyone else here posts to a forum in which there are God knows how many anonymous guests and in which we all have the unbounded ability to spoof anyone else's identity. |
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23 Aug 15 - 08:44 PM (#3732748) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Charmion Do you suck them very slowly or crunch them very fast? I also would like to take exception to those who denigrate cider. Very fond of cider, I am -- especially a veritable champagne of a cider from the Waupoos Island Brewery in Prince Edward County, Ontario. Excellent stuff. I think I'll have one and then go to bed, perchance to dream of gnus dancing in the night. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:02 PM (#3732750) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,MusketKeefAcheStevieboyWottevah Yeah, why not, Musket! Steve here by the way. As ever, I cannot tell a lie. :-) |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:30 PM (#3732755) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Yes you are equalled! Have you forgotten that we're co-Messiahs? Jays, I never had this bloody trouble with the Holy soddin' Ghost... |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:34 PM (#3732758) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raedwulf No, Steve, I don't spoof anyone. Neither do you. Not when "Steve Shaw" appears. Or do you share your own personal password with anyone? Musket, being several cunts (I offer no apologies), is another matter. As for the Guest shit, which appears to be amusing small minds at the moment, it's not clever at all. The sooner small minds grow bored, the better. |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:40 PM (#3732761) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Actually, a couple of posts appeared recently courtesy of "Guest Steve Shaw" that were not me. All you have to do is log out and type whatever name you like in the "from" box. It comes up as " Guest |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:42 PM (#3732762) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw I meant "Guest-whatever-name-you-picked". |
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24 Aug 15 - 02:03 AM (#3732783) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Backwoodsman Yeah, but the 'Guest' tag is the giveaway, isn't it? Whenever I see a post which appears to be a bona-fide member posting as a 'Guest', I automatically assume it's some twat of an imposter. |
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24 Aug 15 - 04:01 AM (#3732790) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford Raedwulf, Musket is coy about his views on WW1. This random post from the thread I linked to last week gives the gist of it. RE: BS: Armistice Day (debate) From: GUEST,Musket - PM Date: 17 Nov 13 - 06:36 AM No amount of quoting those paid to revise history is going to further your cause Keith. We commemorate Remembrance Sunday NOT to remember how we won a war or two, but to ensure we learn from the mistakes of the past. We don't set up cenotaphs to those taken by cancer or coronary heart disease, or those killed at work, or those in car accidents... We do it for the fallen in war. Why? To make sure those with an appetite for war are reminded of the mistakes and callous disregard for human life that the disgraceful senior staff at The War Office had in those days. They started the remembrance idea in order to remind ourselves how good we are at war, but the idea was taken over by far more rational thought than they could ever realise. We remember to try to make sure we don't make the mistakes again, however unsuccessful we seem to be. Your idolising of revisionist hacks is a barrier to facing the cold facts that our fallen were all in vain. Slaughtered for no reason in the First World War and slaughtered in the Second World War because we couldn't even get the peace right.... Does it worry you that they were duped into believing jingoistic lies? Does it worry you that most were killed through the disgraceful actions of their leaders? Does it worry you that there is no glory in war, just futile death. Cheer leaders for military fools should hang their heads in shame, as they are a hindrance to remembering why we stand there each year. Sorry Keith, but in the "Masters of War" debate, they seem to retain their servants...... |
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24 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM (#3732792) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll Why is WWI still being fought on this thread? Is this not the reason why may of us why many of us "sigh"? Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 15 - 05:24 AM (#3732794) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Raggytash Drink beer. We also tried Tiffin Gold 3.6% from the Kirby Longsdale Brewery and Endless Summer 3.4% from the Oakham Ales Brewery |
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24 Aug 15 - 05:27 AM (#3732795) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll Don't any of you people drink decent beer? Whatever happened to Young's Ordinary or Everard Tiger? Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 15 - 05:33 AM (#3732797) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Raggytash My normal tipple is Guinness |
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24 Aug 15 - 05:52 AM (#3732799) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw For several years I was on the tasting panel for Doom Bar. We convened every Friday afternoon at Sharps brewery in Rock to assess the batches of Doom that had been brewed that week. It was quite a detailed exercise. Occasionally the head brewer, Stuart Howe, would try out his new beers on us and get us trying some continental brews. Somebody had to do it... |
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24 Aug 15 - 05:57 AM (#3732800) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome We are only about 30 miles from Kirby Lonsdale and I didn't even know they had a brewery! Mind you - there are a lot closer. Nearest is Naylors at Cross Hills - about 1/2 a mile. Next is Old Bear near Riddlesden - 4 miles-ish then Both Copper Dragon and Grey Hawk in the same brewery near Skipton - 5 miles and the famous Timothy Taylors at Keighley - Again about 5 miles. I think there is one in Goose Eye which is about 3 miles but I have never tried that. We are well blessed :-) |
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24 Aug 15 - 07:00 AM (#3732801) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Ed T You don't have to be a historian to know it was "difficult times in WW I pubs". war and beer |
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24 Aug 15 - 07:39 AM (#3732807) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Bloody hell. I forgot how eloquent I am! What is your point over my cenotaph post Keith? Seems on the button to me. By the way, those on here sounding like the self righteous brothers over how we operate Musket. Keith has just yet again demonstrated why. Although I have no idea why he put that post up, he and others love to judge the poster not the post, so come up with irrelevant snippets about a person posting in order to cast doubt over them. It is unsavoury, creepy, nasty and puerile. Multiple people under one name confuses the fuck out of them. I think we'll carry on doing whilst ever M, I and yours truly feel it appropriate. By the way, we all post separately in music threads, but as this section is called bullshit, it takes a narrow simpleton persona to behave in the way Keith does. |
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24 Aug 15 - 07:53 AM (#3732811) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "My normal tipple is Guinness" Repeat - English Guinness - euch!! Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 15 - 07:55 AM (#3732813) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Keith A of Hertford What is your point over my cenotaph post Keith? Seems on the button to me. Thanks Musket. I gave up waiting for you to answer Raedwulf. I am glad you approve of my selection. I was afraid you would claim I was quoting out of context again. I actually agree some of the sentiments in it myself. |
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24 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM (#3732815) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Ed T "Rose: 'If you are an alien, how come you sound like you're from the north?' Doctor: 'Lots of planets have a north!" ― Russell T. Davies |
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24 Aug 15 - 08:02 AM (#3732816) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Ed T "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." ― Chris Boucher |
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24 Aug 15 - 08:29 AM (#3732822) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Certain things here are getting surreal. Mind you, the Russell T Davies quote had me laughing out loud Ed, and being on a train, that guarantees nobody squeezing into the seat next to mine. I must have heard it at the time but can't remember it. |
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24 Aug 15 - 09:33 AM (#3732833) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Guinness is not to be discussed in the same context as real beer. It is made from watered-down burnt unmalted barley and is low in hops. Its head and frothy texture is achieved entirely by mechanical means via nitrogen gas and a device in the tap. Good for you if you like it, but there is real beer out there too! In the bad old days, when many a pub had no decent cask ales, Guinness came in handy as something at least tolerable. That role has greatly diminished. |
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24 Aug 15 - 10:26 AM (#3732839) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw are achieved :-( |
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24 Aug 15 - 11:21 AM (#3732842) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "Guinness is not to be discussed in the same context as real beer." All an acquired taste really. I was in Oxford last year on a recording trip with a Irish friend and I introduced here to real ale - thought I was going to have to find her a sick-bag. Takes all kinds. One of the most memorable drinking nights Pat and I ever spent was when we were recording the Travellers on the Mile End Road in East London. We invariably had to search for a pub that would agree to serve Travellers, usually only the ones were the dives that sold crap watered-down beer. On this occasion, we found a real ale pub that had Watneys as a basis, but regularly brought in 'guest' ales'; on this particular night, it was Everards and Theakstons. The company wasn't particularly discriminating and asked for "a pint of bitter" when ordering - the barman obliged with whatever was nearest to hand. By nine o'clock, the place was like The Somme (not to mention a controversial subject) - minus the stretcher-bearers. Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 15 - 02:51 PM (#3732874) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw I supped a good few hundred pints round Mile End meself, Jim, in the early to mid-70s. Many of 'em with my mate Blair Peach. Now there was a socialist. |
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24 Aug 15 - 03:30 PM (#3732878) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raggytash Jim In 2005 I was down the Beara Peninsula just heading to the Dursay cable car, In the 1 o'clock news there was a statement that said all the Guinness sold in England was henceforth to be brewed in Ireland. Very sad for the workers at the former Guinness plant in London (and formerly Manchester) but great news for Guinness drinkers as our pints were going to be made in Dublin. PS I know it's not from (and never has been) from the River Liffey |
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25 Aug 15 - 03:27 AM (#3732998) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll It has not made a hap'orth of difference Rag... Guinness in England is still swill and always has been. Even in Ireland, you have to pick your pub - and steer clear of most hotels (especially the large ones). When Pat and I got together, the first holiday we took was to Ireland. She had tried Guinness numerous times in London (with my encouragement) and hated it, and when we reached New Ross, I persuaded her to give it one more go - bang - 'The Thunderbolt!" as they said in 'The Godfather' - she was hooked forever. She has been an addict ever since (beats all the chat-up lines I could ever come up with!). "Blair Peach. Now there was a socialist." A warmly-remembered socialist martyr Jim Carroll |
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25 Aug 15 - 04:11 AM (#3733011) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton Neither the Sixties generation, rights activists, nor student wannabees, have made Britain more socialist. In fact we are now living in a society where capital controls every facet of our lives and the wealth gap has widened to an obscene extent. We tend to confuse social law and order, with opposition to change in the political system. The police are there to keep order no matter whom holds political power Do you think that a socialist Britian would not need a strong police force?.....If so you are living in sixties cuckoo land. Whining about personal "rights" only alienates half of society, divides and obscures the real important change which has to be political and economic |
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25 Aug 15 - 04:15 AM (#3733013) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Raggytash Further tastings included Mosaic Blonde 4.3% from Oldershaw Brewery in Grantham and White Rabbitt 3.8% from the Ossett Brewery |
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25 Aug 15 - 04:34 AM (#3733014) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome For those that believe police are there to 'keep law and order' but happen to murder civil rights activists and student wannabees (whatever they are) The death of Blair Peach. Well done, ake, you have managed to show your ignorance, insensitivity and bigotry all in one post. Steve, sorry if it brings up any bad memories. |
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25 Aug 15 - 04:50 AM (#3733017) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "Neither the Sixties generation, rights activists, nor student wannabees, have made Britain more socialist." No - but they attempted to make life better instead of sitting at home taking a poke and telling us where we were going wrong. The students in the sixties helped change the laws on how Travellers were treated - the present lot have dismantled those laws and outlawed them virtually out of existence. Those who turned out on the hundreds of anti- Vietnam war rallies helped end that particular obscenity. The Anti-Apartheid Movement with its demonstrations and its boycotts was part of the changesd in South Africa. None ofd this managed to change the world, but it at least drew attention to where it was going - a first step. Safer to stand at the window and sneer rather than actually do something. Jim Carroll |
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25 Aug 15 - 04:52 AM (#3733019) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome The first line on my last post should read "For those that believe police are there to 'keep law and order'. But in reality the police happen to murder civil rights activists and student wannabees (whatever they are)" |
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25 Aug 15 - 06:25 AM (#3733030) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw I wasn't at the rally when he was killed. Blair was a down to earth bloke who liked nowt more than to go for a pint or three after an East London Teachers' Association union meeting, not necessarily to talk politics. He taught in a special school and his kids loved him to bits. He had no big ego and had a lovely sense of humour. He wasn't a big bloke, slightly built and he had a bad stammer which would occasionally leave him momentarily when he was particularly impassioned (often when railing against racism, a matter on which he was well ahead of his time). He was absolutely unswerving in his socialism. As the wiki article says, he was a member of the SWP, but he never proselytised about it. I've never heard of the "Socialist Teachers' Association" which wiki mentions, but there was a Socialist Teachers Alliance (STA) which he was, most decidedly, NOT a member of. The left-wing NUT group we were aligned with was Teachers' Rank And File. We were allies on the committee of ELTA and were delegates to the Inner London Teachers' Association, ILTA, basically the London NUT. I was active in the East London branch alongside Blair from 1974 until his death in 1979. I left shortly after that. We all knew straight away what had happened to him at the hands of the police, and nothing can diminish the feeling of anger at the lies, the cover-ups, the closing of ranks and the demonisation of the anti-fascist left that went on for decades. I have only good memories, Dave. Except for that terrible wallpaper in his flat that appears in some of the somewhat unflattering photos of him that we have. I have to assume that he inherited it and probably never even noticed it! |
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25 Aug 15 - 06:40 AM (#3733033) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Musket Guinness is Guinness is Guinness and it all comes from the same well near the brewery, as opposed to The Liffey. The horseshit about best in Ireland is great for the tourist dollars in Templebar, but as someone who has lived and worked in most parts of the world including ironically Dublin, I can say that properly kept draft Guinness, allowed to settle for a minute (not the four bloody days some Irish bars insist for voodoo reasons) before pouring in the last drop is the same anywhere. It travels well, and to be honest, will get less jogging in the lorry going to most places in The UK, straight from the brewery to North Wall docks and onto decent motorways in The UK than trying to get to some Godforsaken village beyond the peat bogs on the West coast. When travelling, I tended to opt for it wherever as at least you know what you are getting, whether it be in Sydney, Singapore, Seattle or Sunderland. When I lived in Munich, I fell in love with Weissbier, but that's another story. And Guinness has been just Irish since the UK production ceased, although it is still brewed for bottles in Nigeria, (tastes different to be fair) and one or two other places for local consumption, according my when I did the brewery tour last. |
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25 Aug 15 - 06:44 AM (#3733035) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "Guinness is Guinness is Guinness and it all comes from the same well near the brewery, as opposed to The Liffey." Thhen why does it taste different over here? It most certainly does. Jim carroll |
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25 Aug 15 - 07:25 AM (#3733039) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST "She was quite promiscuous, to the point where dating her was similar to the experience of sitting on a warm toilet seat" T she was quite promiscuous, to the point where dating her was similar to the experience of sitting on a warm toilet seat" Tucker Max |
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25 Aug 15 - 07:56 AM (#3733046) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Liz the Squeak I'm rather fond of Crabbe's Alcoholic Ginger Beer, although the Sainsburys Own AGB is equally good... a little less sweet and just as gingery. :-P LTS |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:13 AM (#3733048) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Kampervan I know I'm compounding thread drift, but I just throw this in on the Guiness debate. At the time when the Park Royal brewery was still in operation I met one of their brewers socially and asked him about the supposed difference between the Dublin and London brewed products. He said that they were indeed deliberately being made slightly differently because the English were not patient enough to wait for a pint to be pulled in the Irish way and the English version was made to settle more quickly. Whether they now make a different version in Dublin specially to be shipped over here I don't know. |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:14 AM (#3733049) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Kampervan EEeeeekkk I just mis-spelled Guinness!!!! |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:21 AM (#3733052) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw With the noble exceptions of G&T and the odd glass of port or Madeira, sweet booze doesn't do it for me at all. Well, that is if you don't count Baileys on ice cream. |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:24 AM (#3733053) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Not a huge fan of the commercial ginger beers available in bottles but Ginger Tom from Robinsons is very nice as is Ginger Mable from Manchester's Marble brewery. I think the difference may be that the former is brewed as Ginger Beer and alcohol is added while the latter are brewed as beer and ginger is added in the mix. I don't really know but I am pretty good at making things up... :-D |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:27 AM (#3733054) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw As far as I know, the "settling" of Guinness has nothing to do with its basic ingredients and everything to do with the nitrogen gas that is injected into it to make it foam and the mechanical action of the gizmo fitted to the tap on the bar. |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:39 AM (#3733060) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Kampervan You may be right Steve, I was merely passing on what I had been told by a Guinness brewer. Is all draught guinness injected with 'beer gas' (nitrogen/CO2 mix)now? When did that start? |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:43 AM (#3733062) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Musket Kampervan. I can confirm from being sad enough to recall what they say on the brewery trip. It is the same. |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:45 AM (#3733063) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST Beware of asking for "a ginger", if you want a ginger beer in the west of Scotland. |
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25 Aug 15 - 08:46 AM (#3733064) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome My mate used to work at BOC and they started selling the mix as 'Hospitality Gas'. Of course it soon got re-branded by the staff as 'Hostility Gas' :-) |
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25 Aug 15 - 09:06 AM (#3733070) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw I'm not saying that draught Guinness is not a palatable quaff, but it is NOT real ale and doesn't get anywhere close. It is filtered, pasteurised and served under gas pressure. Everything that was wrong with mass-produced keg beers in the miserable 70s. In fact, draught Guinness is probably even more mucked about with than they were when you take into account the shenanigans needed to get that head on it. Faint kudos to Guinness for producing a distinctive and popular product, but beer aficionados will look elsewhere. |
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25 Aug 15 - 09:17 AM (#3733075) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "but it is NOT real ale and doesn't get anywhere close." No argument there - and I miss good beer desperately, but it's comparing apples and orange "He said that they were indeed deliberately being made slightly differently because the English were not patient enough to wait for a pint to be pulled in the Irish way" Nail on the head - would add the temperature of the beer - one of the plagues in Dublin is the tasteless ice-cold stuff that seems to be popular with tourists and those not old enough to know any better. While I was electricioning in London publs, I worked in The Kings Head on Fulham Broadway. An elderly Irishman came in every lunchtime and ordered a pint from the governor. One afternoon, he came in and a young woman was serving, while the governor was chatting to a customer at the far end of the bar. He said to the girl, "I'll have a pint of Guinness, and I'll have him serving me", poinmting to the governor. It's an art form! Jim Carroll |
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25 Aug 15 - 09:38 AM (#3733080) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Too much beer is served too warm. Our Doom Bar tasting sessions at Sharps brewery always had the beer served at exactly 12C. That recommendation makes allowance for the fact that a pint will slowly warm up before you've finished it. I've been served Doom in some pubs at more like 18 to 20 degrees, which is ruinous. There's one pub near me where the landlord told me he was going to stop selling Doom. The customers were always complaining about it, said he. The pint he'd just poured me was lukewarm. I don't drink there any more. The affectation of serving Guinness ice-cold is very irritating when you consider that it's cost you nearly four quid. I assume it's because freezing-cold beer is less lively, therefore quicker to pour. Correct me if I'm wrong! |
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25 Aug 15 - 09:44 AM (#3733085) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw I note that the head brewer at Sharps, Stuart Howe, has left and is now in charge at Butcombe brewery in Somerset. They want volunteers for the beer flavour panel on Friday afternoons, and your reward is free beer. I did this at Sharps for several years and, if you live anywhere near, I can highly recommend the experience! |
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25 Aug 15 - 10:31 AM (#3733099) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Many years ago when The Three Horseshoes in Ingleton was a Yates's pub I remember the then landlord showing me why I should not bother trying their 'keg' bitter. From the same barrel came a pipe with a splitter. One branch went to the hand pulled draught pump and the other went, via a small chiller, to the electric 'keg' pump. They sold the keg for 2p a pint more :-) |
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25 Aug 15 - 11:48 AM (#3733125) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: GUEST,Musket I don't compare it to coffee either Steve. I like Guinness and I like most of the "real ales" I quaff. I don't see it as an either / or contest. Travelling a lot used to mean at least with Guinness you knew what you were getting. Also, concerning beer in the house, cans of draft Guinness are most like the tap version of all beers for me whilst bottles of most of the real ale types tend to be a bit gassy. Doombar being one of the worst culprits (though of course such bottles never saw Cornwall.) So... Which is the best beer for Liverpool fans to cry into at 4.50pm on a Saturday then? 😎 |
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25 Aug 15 - 12:16 PM (#3733136) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "Correct me if I'm wrong!" Not wrong at all - that's exactly it. A good barman will pour Guinness in two stages - first, full with foam; then more steadily the second time - then, wipe the foam off the top with a knife As I said, and art form. You can always tell a sour pint when it fill up at the first go - and each mouthful leave the ring where the previous level was Jeysus - wasn't intending to go out tonight!!! The though of the pint and the session calls. Jim Carroll |
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25 Aug 15 - 01:10 PM (#3733146) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Bottled Doom Bar, like most bottled beers, is filtered, pasteurised, artificially carbonated and absolutely nothing like the cask beer. I always have a few bottles of the more flavoursome continental lagers in the fridge, though I doubt that I drink more than half a dozen bottles a year. Very nice on a hot summer's afternoon. Apart from that, I avoid all bottled beer apart from bottle-conditioned ones, the ones with a bit of yeast in the bottom and which are unpasteurised and naturally carbonated. Until about 20 years ago, bottled Guinness was bottle-conditioned and was miles nicer than the draught. Lamentably, 'tis no more. My very favourite bottled beer is Duvel, though at eight percent plus you don't want to be necking too many. I pour most of the chilled bottle into the glass in one go then glug the yeasty bit at the bottom of the bottle. Gorgeous! |
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25 Aug 15 - 01:44 PM (#3733153) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: akenaton Jim...As a CP member, I attended many demonstrations, It was one step forward and two back. Just down the road from where I live we were out almost every weekend protesting about the American base and the start of the nuclear weapons dump at Coulport, now it contains enough WMDs to turn the world into a desert. We never got a socialist voice in Parliament, we got Blair The housing situation is dire, the NHS is about to collapse as now its about avoiding litigation not treating patients...the waste of money is just unbelievable...the wealth gap has widened, youth unemployment is at ridiculous rates...(I'm talking about real jobs here)....."liberalism" has done nothing to make society better, there are millions with no future. |
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25 Aug 15 - 02:46 PM (#3733157) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll "As a CP member, I attended many demonstrations, It was one step forward and two back." It would be with the CP - Did you ever read 'The British Road to Socialism" a cross between Alice in Wonderland and and Melina Mercouri's version of the Greek Tragedies in 'Never on Sunday'? The people you are so sneery about were largely non-aligned and demonstrated against what they considered unjust - I find your attitude to Blair Peach, who was murdered while opposing racism, beneath contempt. I'll be honest; I've known a number of C.P. members in my time and I've never met one who comes anywhere near your views on homosexuality, immigration and your defence of the Church and 'thye institute of marriage and traditional family values' (now there's a couple of establishment terms for you) If that's what was representative of the C.P. - thank whoever that they never won office Still misusing the term 'liberalism' I see. Jim Carroll |
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25 Aug 15 - 03:22 PM (#3733169) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw Good thread this. A proper bloody lusty Brit thread. Arguing about communism and beer in the one thread. Brilliant. We could look one other fiercely in the eye, grab lapels nose to nose threateningly, and carry on like this for days. No harm will be done. Bet these bloody yank mods won't get it and'll shut the thing down. Tsk. |
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25 Aug 15 - 04:43 PM (#3733179) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Dave the Gnome Karl Marx only ever drank tea with made with tea bags. He believed proper tea was theft. I'll get my coat comrades... |
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25 Aug 15 - 05:47 PM (#3733188) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Steve Shaw A donkey jacket, one hopes.... |
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26 Aug 15 - 02:23 AM (#3733258) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Backwoodsman Speaking of the local folk club, it's doubtful I'll be able to fulfil my contract tonight - I was out with the band rehearsing last night, and it hardly seems fair to complain about being CTB when The Memsahib's in For'n Parts, and then bugger off out two consecutive nights when she's at home! I will adopt my 'martyr's' tone of voice, and frequently look at my watch and sigh heavily as 7:30 (my setting-off time) approaches, but she's a hard woman and will almost certainly ignore me (or, most likely, glare at me through her wine-glass, silently daring me to have the nerve to ask her to sign my pass-out docket)! |
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26 Aug 15 - 09:14 AM (#3733299) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Doug Chadwick Take her with you to the folk club, then she can't complain that you don't take her anywhere. Does she drive? If so, offer to share the driving - you drive there, she drives back - that way you're on to a winner all ways round. DC |
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26 Aug 15 - 10:58 AM (#3733318) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Backwoodsman Y'know Doug, that would be great if:- (1) she didn't have to be up for work at 6 a.m., (2) we could take the dog with us, and (3) most importantly, she enjoyed listening to folk music being sung and played to a background of ten or a dozen bar-flies shouting at one another! In addition:- (4) She never complains I don't take her anywhere. (5) I don't do alcohol, so driving's not an issue. Apart from all that, good idea! :-) :-) |
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26 Aug 15 - 12:23 PM (#3733334) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll Only works once - a double-headed coin's much more reliable Jim Carroll |
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26 Aug 15 - 12:24 PM (#3733335) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Jim Carroll Sorry - missed a bit "you drive there, she drives back" Only works once - a double-headed coin's much more reliable Jim Carroll |
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27 Aug 15 - 04:13 AM (#3733478) Subject: RE: BS: Sigh From: Musket Aye. It were a good night. Mrs Musket doesn't go for similar early start reasons. The alleged greyhound doesn't bother because he keeps reminding me I sang it better when practicing it at home. The bar flies were buzzing a bit but didn't prevent the entertainment. I left at 2.00am this morning. Theakstons may be common or garden but it was slipping down too easily. Then the gaffer stuck a whisky in front of me and it went downhill from there. |