BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?

17 Oct 15 - 03:33 AM (#3744559)
Subject: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

i had the jab last saturday - now i really feel like shit.

i have one every year. but some years - it has this dreadful reaction within it.

anyone else affected?

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17 Oct 15 - 03:38 AM (#3744560)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Kampervan

Had one two weeks ago. Felt a bit snuffly the next day with a bit of a sore throat, but it only lasted 24 hours.

Never had flu and hoping that I never will, so I figure the jab is worth getting.

K/van

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17 Oct 15 - 03:59 AM (#3744566)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

perhaps you're someone who wouldn't get the flu anyway.

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17 Oct 15 - 04:03 AM (#3744569)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jack Campin

Current flu vaccines contain squalene, a non-specific immunostimulant that enhances the response to the virus antigens. I have a rare, mild auto-immune condition which I would rather not have exacerbated into something worse, so I'm not about to let anybody non-specifically stimulate my immune system. (I'd have no issue with the kind of vaccine used 5 years ago, but you can't get it any more).

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17 Oct 15 - 04:18 AM (#3744574)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

squalene - that's a shark, isn't it?

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17 Oct 15 - 04:25 AM (#3744575)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Megan L

I don't see the point in the jab if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die, if I get better then there is nothing to worry about and if I die I wont be around to worry so why bother.

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17 Oct 15 - 04:53 AM (#3744580)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST,MikeL2

Hi Al

My wife and I have been having flu jabs for a good few years now.

Before having the jabs I used to suffer from very bad colds all winter and on 2 occasions I contacted Flu, one the Asian version which knocked me out over the Xmas & New year.

Since having the jabs I don't get anywhere near as many colds and certainly they are less intense than previously. Pleased to say that I haven't had Flu either. I have no effects immediately after the jabs.

My wife though like you does feel rough for about 24 hours and has the sniffles for about a week.

Our friend who we went on holiday with last week had his jab on Thursday and he is feeling rough too.



Regards

Mike

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17 Oct 15 - 05:41 AM (#3744593)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST,Woodrow

  Ahhhh, my wife developed rheumatiod arthritis, a chronic condition due to an extra strength flu shot. She has to take methotrexate for the rest of her life which inhibits her auto immune systen the fights off infections. So minor infections are more difficult to deal with.
Flu shots are a gamble. The US govermnent passed PREPA, a law shielding the drug companies from liability after GWB was subjected to ritual defamation because of a vaccine shortage.
If you research this you will find information that says vaccines won't cause RA but her doctor said the flu shot caused it. Not an adjuvant but the vaccine itself.

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17 Oct 15 - 07:47 AM (#3744623)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mr Red

No reaction this year. Didn't jab last year. Year before, aching arm for most of the year, particularly dancing in the ballroom hold, (waltz hold if you do Irish Set).

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17 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM (#3744624)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: mauvepink

Had mine a couple of weeks back and no reaction at all this year (it is not a live virus in the UK at least) except for a sore arm for a few hours two days later.

I have been having mine for years and generally have no side effects. On the two occasions I did I think it coincidental I got cold like symptoms around the time I had had the injection.

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17 Oct 15 - 08:12 AM (#3744629)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

i had a persistent cough within a day. now its deepened. my energy level is on the ground.

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17 Oct 15 - 09:38 AM (#3744640)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

I don't see the point in the jab if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die

uh-huh. And in the meantime, you'll infect others who may also die.

Does that bring "the point" into better focus for you?

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17 Oct 15 - 10:48 AM (#3744660)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Stilly River Sage

The false associations, such as the story above about "rheumatiod arthritis, a chronic condition due to an extra strength flu shot" are wrong - coincidence at best. There is NO medical evidence that this is the case. Side effects are one thing, people often experience a couple of days of achiness or fever. This doesn't trigger diseases, but people look around for something to blame when they receive a traumatic diagnosis and proximity to an immunization is a popular scapegoat.

Via a WebMD query:

It's not uncommon to feel some soreness, redness or swelling in the area where you had the shot. It lasts 1-2 days. It's rarer, but, you may have a brief fever, feel achy all over, have a headache or feel tired for 1-2 days.

About one in every million flu shots leads to a severe side effect. The best known is a disease that affects the nerves and brain, called Guillain-Barré syndrome.

But the chance of severe complications from getting the flu is far higher than the chance of complications from the flu shot. The flu can lead to pneumonia and heart attacks. It can also lead to conditions of the nerves and brain, including Guillain-Barré syndrome. In fact, this illness is more likely to happen after the flu than after a flu shot.

One of my family members has some immunity issues (if you're missing a spleen you have one less tool to fight illness) and is supposed to get a flu shot every year. I do so also, to be less likely to infect that party.

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17 Oct 15 - 10:53 AM (#3744663)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mrrzy

If you're in frequent contact with babies or old people, you should get the jab even if you are a healthy adult. Take responsibility not to vector something to the vulnerable. IMIO.

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17 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM (#3744664)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mrrzy

Or, of course and as posted above, the otherwise immunodeficient.

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17 Oct 15 - 11:13 AM (#3744668)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST,Peter

Been on the "high risk" list since cardiac surgery five years ago. No side effects so far.

if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die
Having been close to death I will stick with the alternative thanks.

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17 Oct 15 - 11:42 AM (#3744671)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Megan L

I was a first aid instructor and officer for over 20 years till I retired. If I catch anything that could be transmitted to other people I stay at home till I am fully recovered perhaps if other people did the same there would be less bugs going around. Does that bring "the point" into better focus for you?

Peter been there and now the only person I loved is dead death holds no fears for me.

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17 Oct 15 - 11:46 AM (#3744673)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Never miss it. Play the odds.

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17 Oct 15 - 12:13 PM (#3744680)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Bill D

My health insurance pays for it... the office is 5 blocks away.... I get the jab, and have had no flu for 10 years. I'll sure play the odds.

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17 Oct 15 - 12:54 PM (#3744692)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

yeh i sing in old peoples homes - so i get the jab, luckily i 've got a set of penicillin tabs hanging round the house.

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17 Oct 15 - 01:21 PM (#3744701)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

If I catch anything that could be transmitted to other people I stay at home till I am fully recovered...

That's good of you, but since you were a first aid instructor and officer for over 20 years you know that you can still be a vector for transmission under those circumstances.

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17 Oct 15 - 01:25 PM (#3744702)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Richard Bridge

Penicillin is not an antiviral, but an antibiotic. Absolutely no point in taking it for colds of flu (or subsets of flu).

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17 Oct 15 - 01:33 PM (#3744707)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

thats what they say - but it works. thats why folks do it.

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17 Oct 15 - 02:14 PM (#3744717)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

thats what they say - but it works

No, it don't. Placebo affect. Antibiotics are not antivirals, and no amount of "belief" will make it so.

Perhaps this belongs on one of the creationist/religion threads?

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17 Oct 15 - 02:24 PM (#3744720)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

Research what's in the jabs - you won't want it then!
We use a homoeopathic prophylactic combination: thymuline & influenzium.
Week 1: Thymuline 6
Week 2: Influenzium 6

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17 Oct 15 - 02:28 PM (#3744724)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

Yup, guest, and them injectilizations will cause yer ter be autisticival, too, dontcha think??

HOMEOPATHIC? That's a joke, right?

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17 Oct 15 - 02:32 PM (#3744725)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Stilly River Sage

Homeopathic - research what isn't in it and you won't want it.

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17 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM (#3744749)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

Er, Mike, the flu jab in no way can protect you against colds. As we get older, we catch colds less often because we've already had most of the strains of the virus. Once you've had a strain, you can't get that one ever again.

The flu jab hasn't been particularly effective in recent times. It shouldn't do you any harm, though anecdotal evidence suggests that it makes some people poorly for a while. I've had real flu three times in my life. As I'm in quite good nick generally, I'm predicting that a dose of flu won't see me off. I might change my mind as I get older and more feeble.

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17 Oct 15 - 04:02 PM (#3744750)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

Prince Charlie goes in for homeopathic remedies. That's bad enough for me.

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17 Oct 15 - 04:44 PM (#3744763)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

If I catch anything that could be transmitted to other people I stay at home till I am fully recovered perhaps if other people did the same there would be less bugs going around.

One can be infected with the influenza virus and transmit it to others without having symptoms.

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17 Oct 15 - 05:43 PM (#3744773)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

If I'd stayed at home every time I had a cold when I was a teacher, I'd have been sacked.

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17 Oct 15 - 09:25 PM (#3744825)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

Sadly, the flu virus is a bit too good at mutating. Bloody Darwin.

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18 Oct 15 - 05:20 AM (#3744866)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST,MikeL2

Hi Steve

I don't know about the medical situation or your statement about we get less colds as we get older.

For me my colds stopped after I had the jabs....- co-incidence ? I don't think so.

Getting older .....er yea....actually it's my birthday today , so there's another year gone.

Regards

Mike

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18 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM (#3744878)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

The viruses that cause flu and colds are completely different. Vaccines are not only specific to one virus, they are specific to individual strains unless they are combined. Whatever your experience, the flu jab did not stop your colds. Either you were lucky enough to avoid the strains of cold virus you haven't had yet or your immune system is in very good nick. Post hoc ergo propter hoc!

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18 Oct 15 - 08:08 AM (#3744891)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

'
If I'd stayed at home every time I had a cold when I was a teacher, I'd have been sacked.'

at last! we've tracked down the bugger who spread it round the staffroom!

i find antibiotics very effective against infected throats that seem to come in the wake of colds flus etc. still if you still went to work - it couldn't have been that bad steve. quite a lot of people die every year from colds and flu.

don't die!

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18 Oct 15 - 10:01 AM (#3744903)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mr Red

One can be infected with the influenza virus and transmit it to others without having symptoms. received wisdom is that you are most infectious when the symptoms are least (or not) noticeable.
Think about it, a hundred years of medicinal treatments has caused quicker evolution in viruses. The ones that work better are those that transmit in stealth mode. So they survived to proliferate.

Apparently the human genome reveals that there was a shift in the genome at about the time of the Black Death, or possibly Bubonic Plague. The survivors conferred immunity to their offspring, or in scientific terms evolved.

The warning is that viruses and bacteria evolve faster than humans, and a damn sight faster than medicated humans.

I jab!

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18 Oct 15 - 12:33 PM (#3744920)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

Having mine tomorrow. Had flu a couple of years back and, believe me, any minor symptoms that come with the jab are a hundred times more preferable to the flu itself!

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18 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM (#3744928)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

Well it's true that germs can evolve faster, partly because their generation turnover is faster, but there are complications with the way they reproduce...can o' worms there...it's quite likely to be natural selection allowing resistant strains that might have already been present to take over. Remember ye olde peppered moth from school - the black ones didn't evolve as a result of pollution, they were already there in low numbers before the big smoke, but the change in conditions suddenly gave them selective advantage. So the story goes, but who was that bloke who fiddled the results...science, eh? :-)

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18 Oct 15 - 01:23 PM (#3744938)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

People are not born with lifetime immunity to plague (Yersinia pestis).

Antibacterials can be effective on bacterial complications, but not viruses. When people take them on their own until they feel better, that's what leads to antibacterial resistant strains.

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18 Oct 15 - 01:49 PM (#3744949)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Big Al Whittle

well we can agree about that Dave. flu is dreadful. i need to get rid of this quick - i've got a load of gigs coming up starting saturday.

these reactions have been horrible i was aching for three days and i've still got a cough. i wish you better luck with your jab!

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18 Oct 15 - 02:51 PM (#3744963)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, Al, much appreciated. Dunno if it is psychological but I find vitamin C a big help getting rid of stuff like coughs and colds. Try the 1000Mg (Is that 1g? I think it is) fizzy vit. C supplements. They taste quite nice too :-)

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18 Oct 15 - 03:27 PM (#3744971)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

Throw them away. You just excrete the excess, which is nearly all of it, and it may well give you bellyache to boot. It's ascorbic ACID, remember. Cut out the middleman and throw them down the bog!

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19 Oct 15 - 03:23 AM (#3745089)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

Must be psychological then! You'll be telling me that holy water doesn't do any good next...

:D

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19 Oct 15 - 05:15 AM (#3745102)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

Linus Pauling thought vitamin C worked. He was a scientist.

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19 Oct 15 - 05:34 AM (#3745106)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

You got my hopes up then, Guest. Until the first thing I cam across on a Google search was The Dark Side of Linus Pauling's Legacy :-(

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19 Oct 15 - 07:51 AM (#3745127)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mr Red

vitamins and particularly C can be toxic. It all depends on dosage.

I read in the New Scientist years ago that what we consider to be toxins do not exhibit a straightline graph of toxicity. Their effect often runs to the negative (ie beneficial) before curving upwards and crossing zero where we would consider the overall effect to be detrimental. Vitamin C and digitalis are obvious examples. So is that well known (medically that is) "depressant" called alcohol. You can die of alcohol poisoning, that is why we might vomit when imbibing heavily.

FWIW it is reckoned: bubonic plague & black death still exist but have evolved to be more parasitic rather than deadly. Because the human survivors also carried a level of immunity, genetically.

E. Coli 0157 has become serious because it was either: around but propagated slowly and was out competed by milder strains of E. Coli which were less devastating or it has evolved to withstand the sanitising agents we use on farms & in shops etc.

The thing about 'flu jabs is that they are vaccines, they prime your immune system. Anti-biotics kill bacteria, mostly. Ever had diarrhea after penicillin? It kills a lot, including the good bacteria.

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19 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM (#3745144)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, that's me stabbed good and proper. No going back now. I'll keep you updated.

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19 Oct 15 - 09:18 AM (#3745151)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

"Linus Pauling thought vitamin C worked. He was a scientist."

Fred Hoyle believed in a steady state universe and he was a scientist. Isaac Newton was a scientist and he believed in alchemy. I know how tempting it is, but don't assume that scientists always get it right.

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19 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM (#3745160)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

There is no such thing as natural or inheritable immunity to plague. Human survivors have immunity, but can't pass it on to future generations. That's why if you go somewhere where plague is endemic, live in a rural area and involuntarily hang with infected rats, you should get a plague vaccine. Plague still has a relatively high mortality rate.

From the CDC:

What is the death rate of plague?

In the pre-antibiotic era (1900 through 1941), mortality among those infected with plague in the United States was 66%. Antibiotics greatly reduced mortality, and by 1990-2010 overall mortality had decreased to 11%. Plague can still be fatal despite effective antibiotics, though it is lower for bubonic plague cases than for septicemic or pneumonic plague cases. It is hard to assess the mortality rate of plague in developing countries, as relatively few cases are reliably diagnosed and reported to health authorities. WHO cites mortality rates of 8–10%, however some studies (WHO, 2004) suggest that mortality may be much higher in some plague endemic areas."

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19 Oct 15 - 09:58 AM (#3745162)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

Mutated CCR5 gene, delta 32.

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19 Oct 15 - 10:20 AM (#3745167)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

Interesting, Greg. Some believe THE Plague was not plague, a bacteria, but a virus. Article in ScienceDaily.com

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19 Oct 15 - 12:15 PM (#3745194)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

My memory may be failing, but I'd thought that they were able to extract plague (i.e. Yersinia Pestis) DNA from some skeletons in an English (London?) plague pit not all that long ago.... but perhaps that was the 17th Century version rather than the 14th Century one.

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19 Oct 15 - 12:35 PM (#3745197)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Joe Offer

I get really sick when I have the flu. I got it while I was visiting my 95-yr-old dad in Florida in January, so I didn't get in much time for visiting. I got the chills so bad, I thought I was gonna die. I put some towels in the dryer and then covered myself with the heated towels - that made the chills subside. For me, it seems the most important thing is to get myself warm. I suffered a lot more before I learned to get myself warm.
I get a flu shot every year, but it didn't work out so well last season.
-Joe-

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19 Oct 15 - 02:54 PM (#3745229)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mr Red

Human survivors have immunity, but can't pass it on to future generations. tell that to the New Scientist.

Hmm ever heard the current thinking on junk DNA. Starved mothers have smaller children and smaller grandchildren, and so on in diminishing effect. You can see it in cats.
Anyway - survivors pass on their genes, if their particular mutations gave them a level of immunity, those mutations are passed on. In the conventional Darwinian process.

Archeological sampling, all on a statistical basis but none the less revealing. Research into the evolution of the human genome revealed a change that was dated to about the time of the Black Death, though it might have been Bubonic Plague. Both serious killers. Their comment was also that the agent evolved to be less virulent.

The reportage & the research still stand.

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19 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM (#3745242)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

The phantom New Scientist article?

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19 Oct 15 - 05:21 PM (#3745272)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

Greg, you're right. In 2009, Alexandre Yersin found Yersinia pestis in tooth pulp of a victim from the 14th century. Maybe nobody today thinks that plague was anything else--I think the speculation I read was from before 2009. Yersinia pestis @ Wikipedia

I did find a New Scientist article that had something about the bacteria, but not about hereditary immunity. There's something about the appearance of comets being linked to disease outbreaks, which is nutty, but no genetic immunity. The New Scientist, 17 November 1979. This may be the wrong article, but it's the closest thing I could find.

Regarding flu shots, if you don't care about potentially infecting other people because you'd rather risk getting the flu than get the shot, then go ahead. Just know that you can transmit it to other people before you feel sick, and there are people who can't get the shot. If you are one of those folks, then don't get the shot. It IS killed virus and can't give you the flu. The symptoms you get occur because of your body's immune response, and shouldn't last very long. It takes a couple weeks to be effective, and if you've already been infected, you'll get sick before then.

In any case, I hope people stay healthy or get that way soon!

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19 Oct 15 - 06:49 PM (#3745292)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Donuel

The NIH is proud they guessed correctly a year ago what direction the flu will mutate because they guessed correctly. They made a vaccine 60% effective compared to two years ago being only 10% effective.

They are also working on a vaccine that is universally effective for the flu by creating a viral dissolving method to destroy the rod part of the virus instead of just the head.

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20 Oct 15 - 02:43 AM (#3745371)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

Achy arm but aside from that no ill effects up to now. Hope it continues.

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20 Oct 15 - 08:17 PM (#3745544)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Tattie Bogle

As Steve has said, you can't always keep up with the mutations: this year's vaccine is based on last year's main virus strains, so it will not and cannot protect you against any new mutations that have emerged in the ensuing year. Which explains why you can still get flu despite having been vaccinated. (and if you develop some horrible symptoms soon after vaccination where's the proof that it was the vaccine that caused it, or was it something that was going to happen anyway?)
I have had flu vaccinations for years - when I was younger, for occupational reasons - a) to stop me spreading it around my patients and b) in the hope that I would not have to let the NHS down by going off sick. Now that I am older, I have it because it's recommended for my age group, and have also had the pneumococcus vaccination (a one-off) so that I don't die of pneumonia.
I do recall one year being totally floored by flu for more than a week, despite having been vaccinated, but that would have been a new mutant strain.
And no vaccine is 100% (except maybe smallpox??) - viz my son's recent attack of mumps despite having been vaccinated as a child

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21 Oct 15 - 08:54 AM (#3745655)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

24 hours now. Arm still slightly achy. Bit of a tickle in the throat but nothing serious. So far, so good :-)

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21 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM (#3745658)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

From the CDC

Can the flu shot give me the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot give you the flu. Flu vaccines that are administered with a needle are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu vaccine viruses that have been 'inactivated' and are therefore not infectious, or b) with no flu vaccine viruses at all (which is the case for recombinant influenza vaccine). In randomized, blinded studies, where some people got flu shots and others got saltwater shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.

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21 Oct 15 - 09:35 AM (#3745667)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Charmion

As a bad asthmatic, I consider the flu shot to be a no-brainer. My doctor evidently agrees; when the vaccine becomes available, he summons all the asthmatics on his patient list to needle parade. He gets plenty of argument, but his position is uncompromising: an asthmatic with after-effects of the flu shot is mildly uncomfortable, but an asthmatic with the full-blown flu is a hospital patient. Case closed.

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22 Oct 15 - 08:30 AM (#3745881)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

I am too, Charmion! When I had the flu a couple of years back I nearly rang an ambulance at one point. Luckily, and I would never usually use that term in connection with another illness, I also have obstructive sleep apnoea being treated with a CPAP machine. I found with the machine on I could breathe much better. Funny old world!

48 hours. Not even an arm ache now. Unless I go rapidly downhill in the next day or two I will assume there have been no ill effects.

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22 Oct 15 - 09:16 AM (#3745888)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew

For me, it's a no-brainer, too. They are done in the workplace, they are free, and they are a good idea for people who have to deal with the public--a lot of hand-shaking goes on around Parliament Hill.

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22 Oct 15 - 05:02 PM (#3745959)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Donuel

For those who get the flu and decide to stick it out like staying home for a hurricane; if you are still only semi conscious after 4 days with a fever you are in need of hospital care.

The problem is finding the clarity to do so.

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22 Oct 15 - 05:21 PM (#3745964)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

Has anyone here apart from me had Q Fever? I got it in 1990, almost certainly from breathing in dust from dry cow manure (the farmer used to let me help myself from his dung heap. Amazing for growing spuds). I didn't know what I'd had until I was getting better and had a blood test. I used to be a blood donor, but after that I was banned for life. I've had real flu a couple of times, and I can tell you that it's a bloody walk in the park compared to Q Fever!

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22 Oct 15 - 05:38 PM (#3745968)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jack Campin

You might not find this cheering news:

Q fever causes lymphoma

To explain the caution I have: my autoimmune condition is morphoea aka localized scleroderma, a minor chronic inconvenience which can in rare cases develop into something very much more serious. It's so rare (1 in 50,000 of the population) that there is no way anybody is going to have tested the safety of a vaccine adjuvant for it in advance, and either bad or good news is going to take decades to emerge; even if the interaction was 100% lethal we wouldn't know yet. So I'm not willing to risk it.

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22 Oct 15 - 06:56 PM (#3745980)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

I always knew I could rely on you, Jack, to cheer me up! :-)

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23 Oct 15 - 09:39 AM (#3746129)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

New York TIMES, 22 Oct 2015

In the 14th century, a microbe called Yersinia pestis caused an epidemic of plague known as the Black Death that killed off a third or more of the population of Europe. The long-term shortage of workers that followed helped bring about the end of feudalism.

Historians and microbiologists alike have searched for decades for the origins of plague. Until now, the first clear evidence of Yersinia pestis infection was the Plague of Justinian in the 6th century, which severely weakened the Byzantine Empire.

But in a new study, published on Thursday in the journal Cell, researchers report that the bacterium was infecting people as long as 5,000 years ago


Article Here

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24 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM (#3746322)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: JHW

Due now and will get one.
Had several and no side effects but much less flu sort of things than in the past. I have left Folk Clubs where singers were coughing though. Don't have to go to an office anymore nor site cabins. That might be helping.

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24 Oct 15 - 10:36 AM (#3746353)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Charmion

Steve Shaw, in any comparison of influenza and Q fever, I have to say, Irishly, that of the two I'd rather have neither.

In 2011, Himself and I went to the Aran Islands for a week in late September. I already had bronchitis, thanks to the cold I picked up on the overseas flight, but I was recovering nicely until the foggy day when we decided to take a nice long hike through the fields. Inis Mor has more ponies and cattle than it has people, all of them busily dunging the garden-sized plots of land that cover the island, and I imagine that as I strode over the landscape, sucking in great gulps of fresh air, I was getting a thick aerosol of agricultural effluvia along with it.

Within 24 hours, I was so sick I could barely breathe, and by the end of the week I had lost my voice (it did not return for months) and was counting the hours until we could get back to Dublin and doctors who make house calls. It was well past Christmas before I could consider myself recovered. Hiking in the country rather lost its appeal after that.

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24 Oct 15 - 01:03 PM (#3746382)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dorothy Parshall

Charmion mentions the cause of my recent move to a part of Ontario without crops. The wonderful news that the use of pesticides has increased 27% in Quebec puts a brighter light on my move! I am afraid to go outdoors in crop country and have an air cleaner running full tilt in living space.

Re flu shots: I may have had one in the distant past - as in 50 years ago. The slightest sign of anything of that ilk and I am on vitamin C and Pau d'Arco. Certainly not adding any toxic chemicals to my compromised immune system. My health consultant notes that people with environmental sensitivity never "get anything. They are just sick all the time." That is the way it is. At 78, I seem to be healthier than most of my younger friends but it is a constant avoidance issue - avoiding all the toxins possible.

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24 Oct 15 - 05:01 PM (#3746416)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: MartinRyan

First flu shot ever this week... awaiting developments - or non-developments.

Regards

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24 Oct 15 - 05:58 PM (#3746426)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

... and I am on vitamin C and Pau d'Arco.

Neither of which will provide any actual benefit, but if you think they do, where's the harm?

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24 Oct 15 - 06:03 PM (#3746430)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Janie

During cold and flu season I get a bit OCD about hand washing, not letting others use my pens and pencils, and wiping doorknobs, keyboards and phone sets at work with disinfectant wipes regularly. After two bouts of pneumonia secondary to influenza I haven't missed getting a flu shot in 20+ years.

I also have had the PPSV23 pneumonia vaccine and plan on getting the PPSV13 vaccine the day I turn 65 and my insurance will cover it. Sooner if I have some extra cash that I don't spend on birdseed:>) Am also going to get the shingles vaccine this year.

I attribute getting fewer colds in the past several years to a combination of better hygiene practices on my part, more of my colleagues staying home when they have respiratory illness than used to occur, and having lived long enough and had enough cold viruses over 60+ years to have resulted in immunity to the more common in circulation.

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25 Oct 15 - 04:52 PM (#3746618)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

I find that avoiding touching my face helps a LOT.

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25 Oct 15 - 07:41 PM (#3746623)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

Janie maybe goes a little overboard but has the right of it as far as hand washing goes. I recall a talk by the preeminent professor emeritus of Microbiology and Immunology, Dr. Julian Davies, wherein he asserted that the single most effective act you can engage in to prolong your life is washing your hands. I take his advice.

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25 Oct 15 - 08:21 PM (#3746625)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jeri

Influenza is spread by aerosolized droplets, direct contact with droplets, and sticking your contaminated fingers up your nose... seriously! Don't pick your nose.

Colds are transmitted by inhaling some infected person's mucous when they cough or sneeze or touch a surface that has the cold virus on it, then sticking your fingers in your nose or eye. I'd guess I've had a ton of colds because I had an itchy eye. If you think about it, you wash your hands, and then touch the knob on the sink, the door to get out of the loo, some surface such as a desk, counter, phone, or anything, and your hands are re-contaminated. I personally believe keeping your hands away from your face is probably the most effect thing you can do to prevent colds, but frequent hand washing is good. Plus, it prevents transmission of a lot of other things.

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25 Oct 15 - 09:32 PM (#3746632)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

Neither of which will provide any actual benefit, but if you think they do, where's the harm?

A number of studies have shown that people who take dietary supplements tend to have worse health outcomes than people who don't. In general supplements aren't inherently dangerous (although a recent study showed that they are responsible for some 23,000 hospitalizations a year), so what is going on?

It may be due to something called the "licensing effect." This is illustrated by a study in which some subjects were told they were being given a placebo, and actually were, while others were told they were taking a vitamin supplement but were also given a placebo. As reported, "Those who thought they had consumed a vitamin pill consistently chose less healthy options.When testing out a pedometer on one of two routes, they were more likely to take the shorter one. At lunch, they preferred the all-you-can-eat buffet to the healthy organic option. In psychological tests, they expressed a greater desire for "hedonic activities" like casual sex, sunbathing and excessive drinking."

Apparently the people who thought they were taking a vitamin believed, probably subconsciously, that they were being protected and engaged in more risky behaviour. In an other trial, shoppers in a supermarket who loaded up on kale were more likely to pick up ice cream or beer. It seems the perception of doing something healthy results in a "license" to engage in unhealthy behaviour.

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26 Oct 15 - 07:06 AM (#3746650)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Steve Shaw

I hadn't come across the term "self-licensing" before. I see it is sometimes applied to people's energy use. Buying more energy-efficient washing machines or boilers simply "licenses" you to do more washing or turn up the heat in the house. On a public scale I've always thought that the sight of wind turbines and fields full of solar panels merely encourages people to feel good about wasting energy instead of changing the mindset to embracing energy conservation.

It would be good if you could give us a link or two to those trials you mention.

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26 Oct 15 - 08:36 AM (#3746655)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST

Ironic Effects of Dietary Supplementation
Illusory Invulnerability Created by Taking Dietary Supplements Licenses Health-Risk Behaviors

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02 Nov 15 - 11:05 AM (#3748138)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Tattie Bogle

Had to cancel our flu jab appointments on Saturday. Why? Because we both have picked up something upper respiratory - influenza or rhinovirus, not sure. But the other half has had us up changing bed sheets at silly o'clock on several nights because they are so drenched with sweat. Exhausted!

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02 Nov 15 - 07:51 PM (#3748216)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Thompson

Few articles in the English papers said that if you're taking statins the flu vaccine doesn't necessarily work reliably.

The doc tells me not to have it if my body's currently fighting an infection, so I'll often end up getting it shortly after a run of antibiotics, since my sinuses are the Passchendale of sinus infections.

There's a vaccine for pneumonia now too; lasts lots of years, and apparently protects against something like 1/3 of pneumonia infections. Here in Ireland they're recommending it when you're auld and grey and full of fleas.

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03 Nov 15 - 02:50 AM (#3748243)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Dave the Gnome

Had the pneumonia jab some years back. They tell me I never need to have another. They tell my wife, who has had pneumonia twice, that she cannot get one because she is not at risk. :-( Weird.

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03 Nov 15 - 06:01 AM (#3748273)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: JHW

'yeh i sing in old peoples homes'

I sing in old peoples folk clubs. Had my jab an hour ago

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03 Nov 15 - 10:45 AM (#3748324)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

I've not read any of this thread - but thanks for the reminder...

i've just booked my old mum's flu jab for next week...

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03 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM (#3748325)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jack Campin

Can anybody find a link to a COMPLETE list of the ingredients in the pneumonia jab?

Probably more use to me than the flu one and I don't know what if any adjuvants are in it.

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03 Nov 15 - 12:23 PM (#3748353)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Tattie Bogle

From the prescribing info that goes with Pneumovax 23:

PNEUMOVAX 23 (Pneumococcal Vaccine Polyvalent) is a sterile, liquid vaccine consisting of a mixture of purified capsular polysaccharides from Streptococcus pneumoniae types (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6B, 7F, 8, 9N, 9V, 10A, 11A, 12F, 14, 15B, 17F, 18C, 19F, 19A, 20, 22F, 23F, and 33F).
PNEUMOVAX 23 is a clear, colorless solution. Each 0.5-mL dose of vaccine contains 25 micrograms of each polysaccharide type in isotonic saline solution containing 0.25% phenol as a preservative. The vaccine is used directly as supplied. No dilution or reconstitution is necessary.

Hope you're much the wiser, Jack!
It is a one-off for over-65s: in fact. if it is accidentally given a second time, there is a high chance of an adverse reaction. All I got from my one-off was a sore arm for a day or two.
D t G: I don't understand that advice either: even if they know that your wife's pneumonia was due to pneumococcus, there are many strains of it (as you see, 23 in the vaccine!) as well as other bacteria and viruses that cause pneumonia. I'd go back and ask again!

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03 Nov 15 - 04:18 PM (#3748384)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: The Sandman

No.I agree with Megan L.

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03 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM (#3748397)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

.I agree with Megan L.

Are you referring to the part about being irresponsible & likely giving the flu to others?

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04 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM (#3748469)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: The Sandman

From: Megan L - PM
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:25 AM

I don't see the point in the jab if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die, if I get better then there is nothing to worry about and if I die I wont be around to worry so why bother."
that is what i agree wth,   greg f.
greg, has it occurred too you, that you are probably the way you are as a result of all that lovely mercury you get with your jab, god knows what mercury does to gnomes.

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04 Nov 15 - 08:56 AM (#3748494)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Greg F.

all that lovely mercury

Ah, another thimerosal hysteric. By all means, believe whatever nonsense you wish.

So you DO agree that the responsible thing to do is to get vaccinated so you don't become a disease vector?

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04 Nov 15 - 09:57 AM (#3748507)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Jack Campin

Thanks Tattie Bogle. That makes it as near to an organic, whole-grain, appellation-controlée vaccine as you could get (apart from the phenol which I think I can live with). I'll ask my doctor about it.

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05 Nov 15 - 03:49 AM (#3748640)
Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab?
From: Mr Red

Few articles in the English papers said that if you're taking statins the flu vaccine doesn't necessarily work reliably.

something is going on, see - TED.com video of the 1918 'flu pandemic - you have to advance to the Q&A part and the lady is asked "if statins give you any respite?". Her reply was a definite "maybe". Her remarks were definitely about cholesterol but she admitted they just don't know why. In truth she was very definite about a lot and very frank about what "they just don't know". She paints a pretty dire picture about the readiness of governments. Russia has the largest stocks of Tamiflu (per person) and Tamiflu is unlikely to be effective on any strain the evolves in future.

Larry Brilliant is just as pessimistic and he has the only solution "early detection, early response" - and he has the proof.

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