Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'

24 Feb 16 - 04:38 PM (#3774788)
Subject: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: JFloyd1

My name is Jessica Floyd and I am a PhD student who is researching shanties. I will beginning work on my dissertation this summer. I am in the process of trying to track down information about two shanties, one of which is listed above. I have another thread concerning another song of interest: "The Shaver."

In terms of "The Good Ship Venus," I am interested in learning more about its possible origins or of other possible versions/texts. I have copies of Terry, Hugill, Doerflinger, Colcord, and Harlow; however, I am interested in any other, unexpurgated versions that may be floating around. I am particularly interested in the version taht is similar to "Friggin' in the Riggin'." Has anyone come across this shanty or know anything more about it? I have consulted Immortalia, Vance Randolph, Gershon Legman, The Roud Index, the Horntip collection, the Carpenter Collection, and the Inferno Collection.

Are there any other repositories of unexpurgated shanties that someone might know of that I have not consulted? Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time.

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24 Feb 16 - 05:32 PM (#3774801)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Steve Gardham

Hi Jessica,
What makes you think that 'The Good Ship Venus' was ever used as a shanty? I know of no versions earlier than WW1. You would do well to read Ed Cray's book The Erotic Muse where he describes it as an English song brought over to the States by soldiers returning from WW1. He says Vance Randolph (Ozarks) ascribes it very definitely to the 1890s, which you must have seen. You say you have copies of several shanty books; but it isn't in any of those. Confused!

As for other versions, there must be a thread here with plenty of versions.

For as long as I can remember it has been a staple member of the forces/rugby song repertoire and is in all the usual anthologies. If you have any evidence of its use as a shanty we'd all be very interested.

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24 Feb 16 - 06:18 PM (#3774814)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Joe_F

In all the versions of "The Good Ship Venus" that I know, "Frigging in the rigging" is the beginning of the chorus. In the version at St Andrews University, ca. 1959, it was elaborated to

Frigging in the rigging,
Wanking on the planking,
Buggery in the snuggery --
There's fuck-all else to do.

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24 Feb 16 - 06:24 PM (#3774817)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: JFloyd1

Hi Steve,

I was under the impression that "The Good Ship Venus" is similar or interchangeable with "Friggin' in the Riggin.'" I am away from my materials at the moment; however, when I get back to my office tomorrow and I will check and see which text contains the mention of the alignment of the two songs. In at least one version that I know of, "Friggin' in the Riggin'" is the chorus.

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24 Feb 16 - 06:47 PM (#3774823)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Leadfingers

'Twas on the good ship Venus , My word you should have seen us

The figure head was painted red , and the captains name was Greeners

First verse of the CLEAN Version !

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25 Feb 16 - 12:25 AM (#3774875)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Gibb Sahib

I have never seen "The Good Ship Venus," in any quality source, described as a chanty.

Cray, etc. show that bawdy subject matter appears across the genres of English language song. In my opinion, there is nothing significantly bawdy about chanties as a genre. That is, singers sometimes or often -- depending on one's interpretation -- indulged in creating bawdy lyrics, but this is not a feature that distinctly characterizes chanties.

There are of course a number of distinctly bawdy songs that were enjoyed by sailors as well as by hillbillies in the Ozarks. But those songs don't tend to represent the chanty genre well.

Creators of popular media and some Folk Revival performers, wanting to have some fun and to imagine sailors as exceptionally crude, and to imagine ~all~ sailors' songs to be chanties (I guess the word has a special ring to it?) may have indulged in selectively presenting a few bawdy songs as "typical" of sailors' songs AKA (in their mind) "chanties."

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25 Feb 16 - 11:30 AM (#3774960)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Cool Beans

Typo: That'd be John Mehlberg, not Mahlberg. He's a serious collector of bawdy songs and has posted many times on Mudcat but I forget his nom de Mudcat .

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25 Feb 16 - 01:42 PM (#3774992)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: The Sandman

the good ship venus, uses brighton camp tune, and is a rugby type song, i have never ever heard of it being used as a shanty

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25 Feb 16 - 02:57 PM (#3775007)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Steve Gardham

That's interesting, Dick. All the versions I've ever heard in England go to the 'So early in the morning/In and out the windows' tune. I can't imagine how it would fit in its limerick form to 'Brighton Camp'.

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25 Feb 16 - 03:34 PM (#3775018)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt

I've never heard it sung to any tune, just recited.. and there are plenty of sites giving the words...and I can't imagine it was ever used as a shanty. It's limerick meter would suggest it was never used for something that needed equal length measures. I've always know it a a 'rugby' type song...I must have learned it when at school (which is over sixty years ago!)

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25 Feb 16 - 03:43 PM (#3775019)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: The Sandman

oh it was the good ship, venus,by christ you should have seen us our figurehead a whore in bed, our flag a rampant penis.
i learned the whole song from my dad , its the A music it fits perfectly, all the verse fitted ,it was the only tune i ever heard it to. Its the same bit that fits the second line of waxies dargle," says my old one to my our old wan will you come to the waxies dargle, says your old wan to my old wan i havent got a farthing, and then the rest of the waxie tune, you miss out the first bit of the tune,
i could send you all the words if you want, steve.

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25 Feb 16 - 05:56 PM (#3775040)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Steve Gardham

Dick,
There must be a proper thread for the different versions. It would be best posted there. It probably mentions Brighton Camp on that thread.

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26 Feb 16 - 09:58 AM (#3775162)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: JFloyd1

Hey guys,

Thank you for all of your insights!

One thing that is interesting to me, though, is that the lyrics are very similar to Hugill and Doerflinger's "The Ebenezer." They are not exact, but are close. What are your thoughts?

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26 Feb 16 - 10:04 AM (#3775163)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: JFloyd1

To Gargoyle:

I am having trouble locating John Mehlerg. Would you happen to know an e-mail address?

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26 Feb 16 - 06:38 PM (#3775241)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Steve Gardham

It is possible that the Ebeneezer was a model for Venus, but with no stronger links than 'The first mate's name was ....' we can't put it any stronger. This theme is common in songs going way back 'The next to come in was a ....' The Ebeneezer form and tune has no relationship with Venus.

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26 Feb 16 - 07:11 PM (#3775246)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Lighter

Not only is there no evidence that the song was ever used as a chantey, no multi-stanza versions are known for sure till long after the Age of Sail.

Proving nothing, of course. But my own feeling is that the sustained, grotesque, outrageous humor is more typical of university students than of sailors before the mast. In my experience, at least, working-class humor tends to be much more blunt.

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29 Feb 16 - 11:04 AM (#3775750)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,jonesnudger

If it in anyway helps,there is an excellent recorded version by Loudon Wainwright 111 on the compilation cd's 'Rogue's Gallery - Pirate Ballads, Sea Songs and Chanteys' put together by Johnny Depp and Gore Verbinski in 2006.

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01 May 22 - 02:43 AM (#4140758)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Norman Philip Peacock From around 1966

Date: 28 Mar 22 - 08:44 AM

Twas on the good ship Venus, by gad you should have seen us
the figurehead was a nude in bed sucking a dead mans penis
The captains name was Topper by gad he had a whopper, once round his neck twice round the deck & up his hole for a stopper
The first mates name was Green he invented a wanking machine, on the ninety ninth stroke the fucking thing broke & whipped his balls to cream.
The second mates name was Carter by gad he was a farter, if the wind wouldn't blow the ship wouldn't go so carter the farter would start her

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01 May 22 - 02:43 AM (#4140759)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Georgiansilver

The bosuns name was Kent,
His penis was quite bent.
To save him trouble, he bent it double,
And instead of coming he went.
I believe this is also used as a Limerick.

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01 May 22 - 02:44 AM (#4140760)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Peter

I have never heard that verse as part of GSV. I do know a variant used only as a stand alone limerick.

There was a young plumber from Kent
Whose tool was extremely bent
etc

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01 May 22 - 02:45 AM (#4140761)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST

https://youtu.be/tRotvCVKAe8

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26 Feb 24 - 08:04 AM (#4198030)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Lex

I was here.

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27 Feb 24 - 04:19 PM (#4198146)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Mrrzy

Great version by The Poxy Boggarts.

They do a lot of shanty-esque songs, OP!

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28 Feb 24 - 04:46 AM (#4198204)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps

When I was at University in Cardiff (many many years ago!) the prevalent theory was that all rugby type songs had been written by Dylan Thomas!

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04 Mar 24 - 10:43 AM (#4198497)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: The Sandman

if that was the case would he ever have had time to write anything else?

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04 Mar 24 - 12:22 PM (#4198509)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: meself

I read that Dylan Thomas's barely-literate mother was sorting out his poems, separating the wheat from chaff, after his death - and threw the wrong pile into the fire. Who knows how many potential rugby songs were lost to mankind?

(You might wonder why there weren't swarms of academics, critics, culture vultures, fellow-poets, publishers, collectors, and auctioneers - not to mention debtors - swooping in to grab what Thomas left behind - I know I do ... !)

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04 Mar 24 - 01:27 PM (#4198518)
Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Good Ship Venus'
From: Lighter

T. S. Eliot preserved the words of one or two bawdy songs around 1910. One was "The Jolly Tinker," but neither was "The Good Ship Venus."

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