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06 Dec 99 - 02:32 PM (#145542) Subject: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Rana Hi, I was just listening to Martin Simpson's latest CD "Bootleg USA" which has his live version of Anne Lister's "Icarus". This is a song that I love and it is one that has become Martin Simpson's in a manner of speaking. When we were fortunate to have Anne Lister at the Flying Cloud Folk Club as part of the Toronto North American Folk Alliance Club Crawl, Anne said that she had to put a new tune to Icarus as to try and reclaim it. So the question - in your opinion out there, what other artists have made somebody elses work their own, and of course, which song? Cheers Rana |
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06 Dec 99 - 02:48 PM (#145549) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Paul S Elvis Presley made a career out of singing songs by Carl Perkins or Eddie Cochran. As a matter of fact, did he write any of his own songs? I once heard an old version of Hound Dog by Junior Wells. I'm not sure who wrote that one. Paul |
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06 Dec 99 - 02:58 PM (#145555) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Áine Paul S., In re Elvis, I recently heard a radio interview with one of his many biographers, and he said that Elvis was given credit for writing a song that he performed, but in actuality, he never composed anything. -- Áine |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:01 PM (#145558) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: McGrath of Harlow I can't imagine Icarus as "belonging" to anyone but Anne Lister. The way she sings it defines it for me.
There are two things here - a great song may be written by someone who is not a great performer. It can then be sung by somone who is better able to put it across, and become identified as "belonging" to them. Or it may be written by someone whio puts it over well, but it then gets taken up and identified qwith someone more famous. And in that case I wouldn't see it is "belonging" to then latter.
Vin Garbutt does a great job with a song called "Man of the Earth. Bernie Cairns, who did write it, also does a great job when he sings it - but he's not as well known. So many people assume Vin Garbutt write it.
I don't like the idea that songs "belong" to any performer. "Fairytale of New York" sounded like noone else could sing it but Shane McGowan (with Kirsty MacColl) - then Christy Brown sang it, and you saw a whole different set of meanings. (And the great thing with Christy Brown is that he seems able to make songs his in a way that does not stop other people making them theirs, and now it seems everyone feels free to sing Fairtytale.) |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:02 PM (#145559) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: marcelloblues Probably Hound Dog was written by Leiber-Stoller, but I'm not sure. I have been given for sure that it was sung for the first time by Big Mama Thornton. Someday Baby, written and recorded in the 20's by Sleepy John Adam Estes (Hammie Nixon on hca), became in the golden years of Chicago Blues, Trouble No More, by Muddy Waters. Cheers |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:07 PM (#145564) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: bunkerhill Hound Dog was Willie Mae "Big Mama" Thornton's. It pains me to hear "The Dutchman" introduced as Steve Goodman's rather than Michael Smith's. Ditto for "Everybody's Talking," a Fred Neil song often credited to Harry Nilson. Elvis's tunes were borrowed from everywhere -- barbershop song "Aura Lee" becomes "Love Me Tender." "Plaisir d'Amour" becomes "Fools Rush In." |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:12 PM (#145567) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Mbo Actually, "Plaisir D'Amour" became "I Can't Help Falling in Love With You." And don't forget "'O Sole Mio" becomes "It's Now or Never." --Mbo |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:13 PM (#145569) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Paul S Another example of what you mentioned, McGrath OH, is J.J. Cale. He has written some absolutely fantastic songs, but nobody knows who in hell he is. This is the man who wrote After Midnight, Cocaine, Call Me The Breeze, and many other songs that have made other people famous. In every case, I prefer the way he sings it, but he's never made it big as a performer. In an interview I once read with J.J., he said that he hates to leave his cottage in the mountains of whatever state it is that he lives in. He would rather let the likes of Eric Clapton play the big stadiums, and just pay him the royalties. I imagine that I could live quite comfortably on the royalties from After Midnight Paul |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:14 PM (#145571) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Midchuck The most famous is probably Mr. Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky, which was Elvis' first big hit and which he (Elvis) changed from waltz time to straight time. The story is that Mr. Monroe was asked how he felt about it, everyone thinking that he'd be outraged, and that all he said was, "Those were powerful royalties. Powerful." Also: Haggard and Jones on Willie's "Yesterday's Wine." (I say that's folk music, that's who says it's folk music.) Emmylou on Townes Van Zant's Poncho and Lefty. Mangsen, Hills, and Herdman on Nancy White's Daughters of Feminists... And anyone other than Dylan who ever sang any Dylan song. |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:43 PM (#145586) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Rana Hi McGrath OH, I agree with your comments about "belonging". I haven't heard Anne do her original version, only her reworked one. It was recalling her comment that prompted my question. And Paul, I was fortunate to see J.J. Cale in Vancouver years ago. Cheers Rana |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:47 PM (#145590) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Paul S Damn, Rana! I'd give my left nut to see J.J. Cale ... and that's my favourite one. Paul |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:54 PM (#145593) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: InOBU Christy Moore known for - Pierce Turners Wicklow Hills, a totally different song as Pierce who wrote it, sings it. I keep meeting people who think of WIcklow Hills as a Christy Moore songe, Christy is great, but it is a PIERCE TURNER SONG!!! Ive know Pierce since about 1981, a few weeks ago, in his last concert in NYC for this millenium, he was leaping about, the way he does, and lept backwards right off the stage landing on my sweetie Genie. Well, shows Peice has good sence, His band mates tell me they never saw him do that before, and if you are going to flatten a lawyer - of all people, during a gig, isnt it best to flatten one who you know, so you dont get sued? No permanent damage, and my wife is back in court defending the working class All the best Larry |
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06 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM (#145597) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: sophocleese Aretha Franklin in a sense made Respect her song. Otis Redding said something sbout not being able to sing it after she did because of her powerful rendition. |
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06 Dec 99 - 04:03 PM (#145603) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Dale Rose Actually Aura Lee is far older than the barbershop era, it dates from the time of the War Between The States ~~ Words by W.W. Fosdick, Music by George R. Poulton, 1861.
Virtually no one credits Ervin Rouse with writing Orange Blossom Special in 1939. (I have read that Chubby Wise claims to have cowritten the song with Rouse) The Orange Blossom Special was the first "streamliner" in Florida, by the way, in 1938.
Any number of songs presumed to have been written by The Carter Family date much further back.
And speaking of Bill Monroe, he did NOT write Footprints In The Snow, though it certainly is forever identified with him. It is actually quite a bit older, though I can't give you any more detail than that at the moment. I have a recording by Bernice Coleman & the West Virginia Ramblers, c. 1930. |
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06 Dec 99 - 05:48 PM (#145647) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Susanne (skw) McGrath, I thought 'Man of the Earth' was written by Bernie Parry (not well known, as you rightly say ...) Also, there is the amusing story Allan Taylor tells about his 'It's Good To See You': It still is, as far as I know! - Susanne |
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06 Dec 99 - 05:49 PM (#145648) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Susanne (skw) That should have been 'intro Tonder Folk Festival' - greatest festival in the world! |
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06 Dec 99 - 07:04 PM (#145696) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Barry Finn Nina Simone wrote "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" only to have it know as an Animal's song, which she expressed her displeasure about. I also caught Big Mama Thornton at the Boston Tea Party maybe mid 60's & she ranted & raved about that theiving no credit giving Mr. Presley. Barry |
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06 Dec 99 - 07:13 PM (#145701) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Liz the Squeak The BBC once claimed that 'World turned upside down' was a traditional song. They showed a film of people working in a paddy field, singing this song, and said it was a traditional song. The real author who is still alive and after 2 pints of cider I cannot recall who, tried to claim it as his, but the BBC refused to acknowledge him, so he never got his royalty for them broadcasting it at prime time.... LTS |
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06 Dec 99 - 07:20 PM (#145705) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: marcelloblues How many songs performed very well by great artists and groups (such as led zeppelin) where "given" from the audience to this or that.... Easy listeners would attribute a column of our history such THE HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN to the great performers they get in contact with, but this doesn't matter, for me. I find very unfair the behaviour of great, really great artists, who "stole" the music or the lyrics or both, not even for money, I really don't know why... A cover is somehow a tribute, if you spend a few words about the author, tellin' the love'n'respect you feel you wanna give him. Cheers |
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06 Dec 99 - 07:45 PM (#145722) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Jeri LTS - Leon Rosselson wrote The World Turned Upside Down. |
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06 Dec 99 - 07:50 PM (#145726) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Amos Before the mass media made good songs such a remunerative commodity, it didn't much matter; the transfer from mouth to ear was a human process, and everyone in the chain had equal rights to make a new song in the telling of it. One small example is the Irish song -- whatever its name -- which tells of an old man "rocking the cradle of a child not his own", the price of being married to a headstrong and much younger girl. The refrain goes "...Aiee, aieeooo, me laddie, lie easy Sure my misfortune is none of your own. But it's weary I am, with weepin' and mournin' And rocking the cradle of a child not my own." But the tune is identical to the Western American song which invokes little dogies to git along, saying "Whooppeee, ti yo, git along, lil dogies...it's yore misfortune and none of my own..." Place the two side by side and it's pretty clear that the latter was drumeed up by some young buck who followed the railroad and the cows West, but was raised on the older Irish ballad. Good thing it wasn't copyrighted. eh? A. |
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06 Dec 99 - 07:53 PM (#145727) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Liz the Squeak Jeri, thanks, I knew it was some morbid bugger.... LTS |
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06 Dec 99 - 08:12 PM (#145739) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: McGrath of Harlow Bernie Parry of course. It's late at night. My mind slipped a cog. Is there a Bernie Cairns out there? The name sounds plausible somehow.
I remember the first time I met Bernie Parry in a singaround at Whitby (or somewhere). "Everyone thinks Vin Garbuitt wrote this, but I did" he said, and launched into a powerful Man of the Earth. He was thinking about his father when he wrote it, he said.
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06 Dec 99 - 08:46 PM (#145752) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Bluesy Johnny Winter doing Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited, Jimi Hendrix doing Bob's All Along The Watchtower. And I've always liked J.J. Cale's feel, prefer his versions to any covers I've heard. |
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06 Dec 99 - 08:47 PM (#145753) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Bluesy Johnny Winter doing Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited, Jimi Hendrix doing Bob's All Along The Watchtower. And I've always liked J.J. Cale's feel, prefer his versions to any covers I've heard. |
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06 Dec 99 - 09:03 PM (#145766) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Bugsy George Thorogood doing Elmore James songs. I will always rememeber,when I was a music rep for an Independent record comany several years ago, offering a "best of" Elmore James to a young buyer in a record shop. She scanned the track list and said. "These are all George Thorogood songs. Sorry we don't carry cover versions in this store." She wasn't very happy when I told her that not only were they Elmore James' songs but that the "cover versions" were Thorogoods, in my opinion a man who not only recorded so much James music but also spent a lot of energy copying his style. Cheers bugsy |
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06 Dec 99 - 09:12 PM (#145772) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Mbo It seem more and more Celtic artist today are covering Dougie MacLean's "Ready For The Storm" for some reason. There's Deanta, Kathy Mattea, and Jennifer Licko (a local)... It's the Dougster's song, and no one sings it like him! I think it's a really good song, but I can't understand why so many people are covering it. It's not that thematically important, like "Rocky Top" or "I Can't Stop Loving You." I also wonder why it has make the crossover from a male to a female perspective? --Mbo |
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06 Dec 99 - 11:08 PM (#145826) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: ddw Several "stolen" songs spring to mind. Arthur 'Big Boy' Cruddup used to rail about how Elvis stole That's All Right Mama from him and he never saw a dime out of it. The Elmore James/George Thorogood post reminded me that James himself took over Dust My Broom to the point a lot of people don't know it's a Robert Johnson tune. A lot of people (including some I've seen in print) think the Irish Rovers wrote Shel Silverstein's The Unicorn. And most recently I got a John Cephas/Phil Wiggins CD which credits Weeping Willow to Wiggins; never mentions Blind Boy Fuller. The C/W version uses some slightly different chords (major instead of minor), but it's definitely the same song. david |
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06 Dec 99 - 11:43 PM (#145845) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Áine Amos -- the Irish song you were speaking of is in the DT as ROCKIN' THE CRADLE. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Áine |
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07 Dec 99 - 12:13 PM (#146025) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Ritchie Forster There are lots of songs that come to mind that people think are by whoever they hear singing them at the time especially when the performers themselves are accomplished writers. A good song sounds good by anybody...Tom Waits singing his own is a fine example of this... I remember the first time I heard 'it's all over now' by the Stones and then the Valentinos and eventually Bobby Womack all diferent, all great versions. Just wait until one of the new 'boy' bands cotton on to all this fine musical heritage. One of my foibles is collecting different versions of songs and I usually find that the original, by the writer is the best..As for Vin Garbutt, I really enjoy seeing him and look forward to him singing'Man of the Earth',which incidently I posted the lyrics once onto a thread in Mudcat because I wanted everyone to share the sentiments of such a fine song, however Vin always points out that it was written by Bernie Parry who as yet I've never heard. Does Bernie sing any of Vins'? the Big Man |
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08 Dec 99 - 12:22 AM (#146397) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Pete Peterson I remember after Peter Paul and Mary covered If I had a Hammer, going to a Pete Seeger concert and hearing him say "you may have heard this song a little bit differently recently, but THIS is the way I wrote it!" (This has got to be mid-60s, would guess 1965 and a Philadelphia Folk Festival??) I think that one fixes on the first recording of a song that one hears-- and the first recording of Hammer that I heard was Pete on "Love Songs for Friends and Foes", old Folkways record from late 50s. And nobody else's recording is as good. At least that's the way it works for me. |
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08 Dec 99 - 03:28 AM (#146431) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Steve Parkes I recall that Phil Ochs introduced 'There but for fortune' as being 'written for me by Joan Baez!'. Al Jolson always insisted on his name being included with the writers' on his recordings, because the performance was part of the creative process. In Jolson's case, I don't think you could argue with that. There are two issues here: on the one hand, there are songwriter/singers who write and perform their own stuff; on the other, there are those who don't write their own stuff, but perform others'. Nothing wrong either way. But there's also a distinction between a creative performer and a mere reproducer of songs. Steve |
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08 Dec 99 - 05:53 AM (#146442) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Roger the skiffler ...the sad thing is that often the audience for the commercially successful cover versions never hear the original. The Rolling Stones version of "Baby please don't go" is a pale imitation of Fred McDowell's version, Elvis' "Hound Dog" lyrics make less sense than Mama Thornton's original (and I know Leiber & Stoller copyrighted it, but I think she claimed authorship) and Clapton's covers lack the raw emotion of the originals, though his tribute versions might lead fans back to the masters. The kazoo on his "San Francisco Bay blues" isn't up to the Lone Cat's (and did Clapton ever tap dance while playing guitar and harmonica as Jesse Fuller did?). Good old Lonnie Donegan had the UK commercial success with his simplified versions I was brought up on but always paid tribute to his mentors: Leadbelly, Broonzy,and Lonnie Johnson, even if "Donegan" is usually added to the author credits on the records! RtS ("the straight an' nat'ral blue") |
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08 Dec 99 - 07:12 AM (#146451) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Mudjack Ramblin' Jack Elliot covered Dylan's "Don't Think Twice" so well, Dylan bequethed him the song. He sings it like he wrote it. Kate Wolf covered "Some Kind of Love" by John Stewart and when folks sing along to it I keep hearing them singing the Chorus, Everyone's searching for some kind of love instaed of "looking" for as John wrote. Kate gave more to the song's recognition than John ever has. Mudjack |
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08 Dec 99 - 09:16 AM (#146501) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Bullfrog The Elvis "songwriting" deal was a Colonel Tom Parker-inspired scam: if you were an up-and-coming songwriter and wanted Elvis to record your song you had to cut him in for a share of the royalties. I remember writing indignantly to the Guardian a few years back when they had a column called Centipede which claimed to elect the century's "best" in any given category. They made the nonsensical claim that Elvis was the century's best pop music composer! They even credited him with Hound Dog, which was a Lieber/Stoller composition with no co-write credit because they were successful enough not to need it. As for writers reclaiming their own songs, I've been enjoying Dan Penn "covering" his own songs --- classics like Do Right Man, Dark End Of The Street and I'm Your Puppet. |
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08 Dec 99 - 09:53 AM (#146517) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Willie-O Hey, hey, hey. Come on now. The writer's rendition of a song isn't always the best, although you might expect it to have the right context. That's why some people are known as songwriters, and others as singers. (OK it's the evil capitalists in the music biz that control everything we listen to, but just bear with me for a moment...) But for whatever reason, and it's not just filthy lucre, a particular version of a song becomes the definitive standard, against which you just plain don't want to be measured. So if you're going to do the song anyway, do it differently, because you won't do, you know, "Four Strong Winds" any better than Ian and Sylvia, "Bobby McGee" better than Janis, etc, while imitating their style. I read once that in the early 70's when "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" was a brand new song, it was introduced to North American audiences by Archie Fisher, who got such a tremendous response when he played it at Mariposa, that he immediately dropped it from his repertoire, cause he didn't want to become "a slave to another man's song." Quote unquote. Other things you can get enslaved to by audience response include novelty songs and playing the hammered dulcimer. Proceed with caution. Bill |
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08 Dec 99 - 11:40 AM (#146560) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Parthenon When hearing Roberta Flack singing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face", few people realise that it was written by Ewan McColl |
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08 Dec 99 - 11:45 AM (#146562) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Dale Rose Just a few thoughts here and there
Bobby McGee was written by Kris Kristofferson and Fred Foster and as noted by Bill, defined for most by the Janis Joplin version, but for whatever reason, my favorite version is that of Gordon Lightfoot, 1970. When I hear it in my head, it is always Gordon and that slappin' time clappin'. I know I heard his version first, as hers was not released until 1971.
Walk Right In is very much associated in most people's minds with the version by The Rooftop Singers in 1963, though with the advent of reissues, first on lp and later on CD, many have come to know and love the original version by Gus Cannon's Jugstompers from 1930.
To use a local example, certain songs which are done at the Ozark Folk Center seem to be fair game for anyone, while other songs are so closely identified with a certain individual or group that they are rarely if ever done by anyone else. When a particular group left the area a few years ago, several of "their" songs showed up in the repertoires of other groups within the next year! After a particularly nice rendition of Frankie and Johnny by a talented young singer, the MC (who was also backing her up on guitar) jokingly said, "Remind us never to do that one again!", meaning the group he normally plays with. |
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09 Dec 99 - 11:18 AM (#147102) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: Wolfgang Ive assumed wrongly for many years that Universal Soldier was a Donovan song. Wolfgang |
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10 Dec 99 - 01:32 AM (#147437) Subject: RE: Songs that have become another's 'own' From: emily rain right on, bill. i have a friend who plays "bobby mcgee" in his own way at the local jam session, and i can always hear at least two or three janis wannabes in the audience singing along... i wish they would stop. my friend does it so nicely. many years ago i wrote a song that i sorta liked but mostly didn't, so i didn't perform it very often or enthusiastically. then i heard some friends perform it totally differently, and it was like the song was reborn through them. even though it was never a hit with my audiences, it sure was with theirs, and suddenly i liked it too! i was grateful to them for having seen what i didn't see. and wouldn't it have been sad if they played it in exactly the same, boring way i did? |