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Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)

30 Jun 16 - 01:13 PM (#3798464)
Subject: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: keberoxu

Douglas Hyde's Abhráin Diadha Cúige Connacht / The Religious Songs of Connacht, volume I, pp. 130 - 137, is the reference work from which I will open this thread. That said:

This particular sean-nós has an elevated status within traditional Irish song. True, for listeners outside of this genre, it may be all but unknown. But within the outer circle, if you will, this lyric has gotten a great deal of attention. The song is in more than one published collection; at least one doctoral dissertation (Angela Bourke a/k/a/ Angela Partridge) has been published with the Gaelic song as its title, as well as its subject; several generations of Irish musicians have now recorded performances of the song. In short, a strong argument can be made for giving this song a thread of its own.

It is also a fact that "Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire," sometimes with variations in the spelling, already has a presence in existing Mudcat Forum threads. So there is a question of duplication.

If members and moderators feel that strongly about it, then...well, I will leave it to them what action to take. My only motivation is to start a consideration of this song with the version that is published in the 1906 collection edited by Douglas Hyde. Other versions, and the collectors or singers who document them, are welcome with open arms here.

30 Jun 16 - 01:39 PM (#3798466)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: keberoxu

Douglas Hyde's lyric will be posted, not the way it is sung with the refrain --
"Ochón agus ochón ó"

but in couplet form, without the "curfa," for the sake of brevity.

Bhí Iúdás 'na aice agus rug sé greim láim
'Ma'seadh a Iúdáis bhradaigh creud do rinne mo ghrádh ort'

    Judas was near Him, and he took a hold of His hand
    'Musha O vile Judas what did my love do to you'

Ni dhearnaidh sé ariamh dada ar leanbh ná páirte
Agus níor chuir sé fearg ariamh ar a mháthair

    He never did anything to child or infant
    And He never put anger on His mother

Stróiceadar an bhráigh leó an lá sin ó n'a láthair
'A Pheadair na n'abstal an bhfacaidh tu mo ghrádh geal'

    They took him into captivity that day
    'Peter of the apostles, did you see my bright love'

'Ma'seadh! a mhaighdean chonnairch mé ar ball é
Agus bhí sé gabhtha go cruardh i lár a námhad'

    'Musha! o Virgin I did see him just now
    And he was caught firmly in the midst of his enemies'

Thógadar suas ar a nguailnidh go h-árd í
Agus bhuaileadar síos ar chlochaibh na sráide í

    They lifted her up high upon their shoulders
    And they smote her down upon the stones of the street

'Buailidh mé féin agus ná bain le mo mháthair'
'Buailfimid thu féin a's marbhóchamaoid do mháthair'

    'Beat myself but do not touch my mother'
    'We shall beat you and we shall slaughter your mother'

'Cia an bhean í sin 'nár ndiaigh ann san bhfásach'
'Go deimin má tá bean ar bith ann 'sí mo mháthair'

    'What woman is that after us'
    'Indeed if there is any woman in it, it is my mother'

Nuair chualaidh an mhaighdean an ceileadhradh cráidhte
Thug sí léim thar an ngárda agus léim go crann na páise

    When the Virgin heard the sorrowful notes
    She gave a leap past the guard, and the second leap to the tree of the passion

'Cia h-é an fear breágh sin ar chrann na páise'
'An é nach n-aithnigheann tu do mhac a mháthair'

    'Who is that fine man on the tree of the passion'
    'Is it that you do not recognize your Son, O mother'

'A Eóin, feuch, fágaim ort cúram mo mháthar
Congbhaigh uaim í go gcríochnóchaidh mé an pháis seó'

    'O John, see, I leave to thee the care of My mother
    Keep her from me until I finish this passion'

'An é sin mo leanbh a d'iomchar mé trí páithe
No an é sin an leanbh d'oileadh i n-ucht Mháire'

    'Is that my child that I carried for three quarters of a year
    Or is that the child that was reared in the bosom of Mary'

Chaitheadar anuas é 'na spólaibh geárrtha
'Sin chugaibh anois é agus caoinigidh bhur sáith air'

    They let fall his lacerated body
    'There he is for you now, and keen over him'

'Glaodh ar na tri Mhuire go gcaoinfimid ár ngrádh geal'
''Tá do chuid mná-caointe le breith fós a mháthair'

    'Call the three Marys until we keen our bright love'
    'The women who will keen me are yet to be born, O Mother'

30 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM (#3798469)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Both Jim Carrol and myself posted version to one of your threads in the past week or two.

A version sung by Joe John Mac Con Iomaire

Another one by Iarla Ó Lionard

30 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM (#3798475)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: GUEST,Modette

You don't understand anything about sean-nós, do you keberoxu? Do you actually know what the term means?

Why is it important for you to seek focus on the publications of a member of the British Ascendancy, Hyde? What point are you really trying to make?

30 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM (#3798485)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: keberoxu

If you want to know more about the original poster, then you may click below the music threads on the Triage thread in the BS section.

If, of course.

(Maiseadh=ma-is-eadh='MUSHA', if--then. Live and learn, folks.)

30 Jun 16 - 05:20 PM (#3798499)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: keberoxu

You can also look up the "Deirdre Ni Fhloinn" thread if you want more about me in a musical context. If, that is.

30 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM (#3798502)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: Felipa

Keberoxu, if you must start a new thread (I dont know how long the previous Caoineadh na dTrí Mhuire threads are), you could at least provide a link to one or more previous threads.

Modette, I think that is a really unfair comment re Dubhghlas de hIde and Keberoxu's interest in his collections of Irish song. Without people like him collecting folklore and language of the people, much of our heritage would have been lost. And you can find similar examples among folklorists in other countries. In the context of Ireland, there were people from the ascendancy who were actively involved in campaigning for Irish independence. Also in the context of the sectarian divisions in Ireland, I would rather point out that Protestants like de Ide were active in promoting the Irish language. He was at one time president of the Gaelic League, and later on Uachtaran (President) of the republic of Ireland.

01 Jul 16 - 01:04 AM (#3798539)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: Stilly River Sage

"Modette" is deleted as often as his/her posts are allowed to stay. If no one had responded yet this one would have vanished. He's a piece of work who seems to mostly inhabit the edges just to poke sharp sticks in the eyes of members and moderators alike. Pay him no mind.

01 Jul 16 - 09:21 AM (#3798584)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: leeneia

Good for you, Felipa and Acme.

15 Jul 16 - 02:52 PM (#3800440)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: Joe Offer

Felipa, I don't see any previous threads on "Caoineadh na dTrí Mhuire." If you know of any, let me know and I'll combine or crosslink them.

There are some lyrics and some information on the song on the thread titled Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer. Here are a couple versions from that thread.

Thread #69073   Message #3795495
Posted By: Jim Carroll
14-Jun-16 - 05:09 AM
Thread Name: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer
Subject: RE: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer

Original in Irish

A Pheadair, a Aspail,
An bhfaca tú mo ghrá geal?
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
Chonaic mé ar ball é,
Gá chéasadh ag an ngarda.
Óchón agus óchón-ó!

Cé hé an fear breá sin
Ar Chrann na Páise?
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
An é n-aithníonn tú do Mhac,
A Mháthrín?
Óchón agus óchón-ó!

An é sin an Maicín
A hoileadh in ucht Mháire?
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
An é sin an Maicín
A rugadh insan stábla?
Óchón agus óchón-ó!

An é sin an Maicín
A d'iompair mé trí ráithe?
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
A Mhicín mhúirneach,
Tá do bhéal 's do shróinín gearrtha,
Óchón agus óchón-ó!

Cuireadh tairní maola
trína chosa 's trína lámha,
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
Cuireadh an tsleá
Trína bhrollach álainn.
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
Óchón agus óchón-ó!
English translation

Peter, Apostle,
Have you seen my bright love?
Alas, and alas-o!
I saw not long ago
Surrounded by his enemies.
Alas, and alas-o!

Who is that good man
Upon the Passion Tree?
Alas, and alas-o!
It is your son, Mother,
Don't you recognise me?
Alas, and alas-o!

Is that the wee son
That was nourished at Mary's breast?
Alas, and alas-o!
Is that the son
That was born to me in the stable?
Alas, and alas-o!

Is that the son
I carried for three quarters?
Alas, and alas-o!
Darling little son,
Your mouth and your nose are cut,
Alas, and alas-o!

Blunt nails were pushed through
His feet and his hands.
Ochón agus ochón-ó!
And a spear pierced
Through his beautiful chest.
Alas, and alas-o!
Alas, and alas-o!

Jim Carroll

Thread #69073   Message #3795499
Posted By: GUEST,Peter Laban
14-Jun-16 - 05:32 AM
Thread Name: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer
Subject: RE: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer

I seem to have a version with some extra verses here. I don't remember where it came from. I used it when teaching the air on the pipes.

The ochons are left out after the first verse, for brevity.

Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire

A Pheadair a aspail an bhfaca tu mo ghrá bhan
Ochón is ochón ó
Chonaic me ar bar é is é dhá chéasadh in airde
ochón is ochón ó

Cé hé an fear breá sin ar chrann na páise
An é nach n-aithníonn tu do mhac a mháithrín

An é sin an maicín a diompair me trí ráithe
No an é sin an maicín a rugadh in san stábla

An é sin an maicin a hoileadh in ucht mhaire
A mhicín mhuirneach tá do bhéal is do chróinín geartha

Agus crocadh suas í ar ghuaillní arda
Agus cathadh anuas í ar leacrachai na sráide

O buailigi mé féin ach na bainí le mo mhaithrin
O maróidh muid thu féin agus buailfidh muid do mháithrín

Agus cuireadh táirni maola thrína chosa 's thrína lámha
Agus cuireadh an tsleá thrina bhrollach álainn

Gabhaigí a dhá mhuire go gcaoinfidh muid mo ghrá geal
Céard tá le caoineadh a'inn, muna gcaoinfidh muid a chnámha

Ó éist a mháithair agus ná bí cráite
Ta mná mo chaointe le breith fós a mháithrín

Is a bhean atá ag gol de bharr mo bháise
Beidh na ceadta inniu i ngairdin phárrthais

07 Aug 16 - 04:55 PM (#3804069)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Muire (sean-nos)
From: keberoxu

Another day, another mis-spelled song title. Par for the course when it's me doing the posting.

The Three Marys are of course "Mhuire." I was careless when posting the OP, copying from the Hyde-edited anthology; the Gaelic print in the anthology follows the convention of a dot above any given consonant, which indicates that the consonant is followed by an aitch. Unless you know what the dots are there for, the name on the page looks like "Muire" but of course it isn't.

Actually, looking up the printed sources and the numerous recordings, some disagreement over the title itself surfaces. Joe Heaney, it is stated, used a different title for this particular song, and if I read his commentary right, he learned it orally, not from a printed book.

An earlier recording than Heaney, or for that matter Ní Ghuairim, is the 1938 recording for HMV by Máire Ní Scolaí but, as Jim Carroll has kindly pointed out on the thread about the latter singer, she was not a sean-nós artist as such, but a concert performer whose repertoire included arrangements of traditional material. This recording, originally a '78 single, is of a concert-hall arrangement for voice with the accompaniment, imitating a harp, for a piano; in which regard the performance sounds that much more European-classical than traditional. I don't see an arranger credited on the label; the pianist is Duncan Morrison, but that doesn't mean he wrote it down himself. From my experience with classical songs with piano, it seems safe to presume that the pianist is playing, not by ear, but from a written or printed piece of sheet music on the piano's music stand: this is the convention in classical art song, that even if the pianist knows the music by heart, that music score is up there on the piano in performance. In that the performance convention differs from solo classical pianists, who centuries ago had the score in front of them in performance, but over time decided to perform from memory instead.

Anyhow, back to the title. The song title, as identified in the thread title (mis-spelling and all), appears in the Hyde edition and on Ní Scolaí's recording; I don't know, but the connection could be a direct one, as in, whoever wrote Ní Scolaí's arrangement might have been working directly from the Hyde version. In any event, a precedent was set, and more recent recorded performances seem to agree on the "Tri Mhuire" title.

07 Aug 16 - 05:13 PM (#3804074)
Subject: RE: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire
From: Felipa

Caoineadh na dTrí Mhuire

21 Apr 19 - 06:15 AM (#3988450)
Subject: RE: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire)
From: Felipa

reviving this song thread for Easter; really I should have done this on Friday.
What a distressing image of a woman seeing her child suffer! But still a beautiful lament.

best known recordings of this Caoineadh are by men
Seosamh O hEanaí
Cóír Chúil Aodh

though you could argue that it is a woman's song
Nóirín Ní Riain

(links to youtube recordings; there are a few recordings by other artists on the site as well. And Peter Laban provided two links to recordings earlier on in this discussion. I haven't checked whether the links are still working.)
re Muire/Mhuire, as noted by Keberoxu; Mh has a w sound. The alteration of the name Muire happens because it is preceded by a number, Trí (three). Trí itself is lenited because of the genitive, this is the keen "of the" (na d)Marys.

21 Apr 19 - 08:08 PM (#3988511)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: leeneia

I've read two or three translations of this and it's hard to see how three Marys come into it. There is just one, the mother of Jesus.

I suspect somebody got confused by the ballad called 'The Four Maries.'

21 Apr 19 - 08:21 PM (#3988512)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: GUEST,keberoxu

I hope that somebody who is more Gospel-literate than I,
will come up with the quotes,
but this is indeed from scripture.

It is from the Passion, but I don't know
which Apostle/ Gospel book it comes from.
That particular book of the Gospel
asserts that Mary the mother of Salome,
and Mary out of whom Jesus had cast seven devils,
were with the mother Mary at Calvary,
keeping vigil by the cross.

For obvious reasons Mary the Virgin Mother does most of the talking
amongst the women,
but there is a verse at the very very end --

two women speak to each other.
What shall we do with his body?
the other replies,
But we don't even have his bones.

22 Apr 19 - 01:45 AM (#3988520)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)

'Peter Laban provided two links to recordings earlier on in this discussion. I haven't checked whether the links are still working'

The youtube videos I linked to before were removed. But the same clips were posted elsewhere so here you go:

Joe John Mac Con Iomaire

Iarla Ó Lionáird

The website dedicated to Joe Heaney gives a full text and some background here

From that site:

'The song is best understood as a conversation between a number of participants including Peter, Jesus, the Blessed Virgin, and the Roman soldiers. This device advances the story with the greatest possible economy, allowing us to focus on the emotional intensity of each moment, from the viciousness of the soldiers to the disbelief and distress of Mary and finally to the quiet stoicism of Jesus, offering comfort to his distraught mother.'

22 Apr 19 - 01:47 AM (#3988522)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

I forgot to mention the version as sung by Sorcha Ní Ghuairim uses a different tune. If memory serves. Like all her singing, it's lovely.

22 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM (#3988544)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

And here it is :

Caoineadh Na dTrí Mhuire · Sorcha Ní Ghuairim

22 Apr 19 - 09:49 AM (#3988553)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos)

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen ~ John 19:25?