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30 Jun 16 - 01:13 PM (#3798464) Subject: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: keberoxu Douglas Hyde's Abhráin Diadha Cúige Connacht / The Religious Songs of Connacht, volume I, pp. 130 - 137, is the reference work from which I will open this thread. That said: This particular sean-nós has an elevated status within traditional Irish song. True, for listeners outside of this genre, it may be all but unknown. But within the outer circle, if you will, this lyric has gotten a great deal of attention. The song is in more than one published collection; at least one doctoral dissertation (Angela Bourke a/k/a/ Angela Partridge) has been published with the Gaelic song as its title, as well as its subject; several generations of Irish musicians have now recorded performances of the song. In short, a strong argument can be made for giving this song a thread of its own. It is also a fact that "Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire," sometimes with variations in the spelling, already has a presence in existing Mudcat Forum threads. So there is a question of duplication. If members and moderators feel that strongly about it, then...well, I will leave it to them what action to take. My only motivation is to start a consideration of this song with the version that is published in the 1906 collection edited by Douglas Hyde. Other versions, and the collectors or singers who document them, are welcome with open arms here. |
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30 Jun 16 - 01:39 PM (#3798466) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: keberoxu Douglas Hyde's lyric will be posted, not the way it is sung with the refrain -- "Ochón agus ochón ó" but in couplet form, without the "curfa," for the sake of brevity. Bhí Iúdás 'na aice agus rug sé greim láim 'Ma'seadh a Iúdáis bhradaigh creud do rinne mo ghrádh ort' Judas was near Him, and he took a hold of His hand 'Musha O vile Judas what did my love do to you' Ni dhearnaidh sé ariamh dada ar leanbh ná páirte Agus níor chuir sé fearg ariamh ar a mháthair He never did anything to child or infant And He never put anger on His mother Stróiceadar an bhráigh leó an lá sin ó n'a láthair 'A Pheadair na n'abstal an bhfacaidh tu mo ghrádh geal' They took him into captivity that day 'Peter of the apostles, did you see my bright love' 'Ma'seadh! a mhaighdean chonnairch mé ar ball é Agus bhí sé gabhtha go cruardh i lár a námhad' 'Musha! o Virgin I did see him just now And he was caught firmly in the midst of his enemies' Thógadar suas ar a nguailnidh go h-árd í Agus bhuaileadar síos ar chlochaibh na sráide í They lifted her up high upon their shoulders And they smote her down upon the stones of the street 'Buailidh mé féin agus ná bain le mo mháthair' 'Buailfimid thu féin a's marbhóchamaoid do mháthair' 'Beat myself but do not touch my mother' 'We shall beat you and we shall slaughter your mother' 'Cia an bhean í sin 'nár ndiaigh ann san bhfásach' 'Go deimin má tá bean ar bith ann 'sí mo mháthair' 'What woman is that after us' 'Indeed if there is any woman in it, it is my mother' Nuair chualaidh an mhaighdean an ceileadhradh cráidhte Thug sí léim thar an ngárda agus léim go crann na páise When the Virgin heard the sorrowful notes She gave a leap past the guard, and the second leap to the tree of the passion 'Cia h-é an fear breágh sin ar chrann na páise' 'An é nach n-aithnigheann tu do mhac a mháthair' 'Who is that fine man on the tree of the passion' 'Is it that you do not recognize your Son, O mother' 'A Eóin, feuch, fágaim ort cúram mo mháthar Congbhaigh uaim í go gcríochnóchaidh mé an pháis seó' 'O John, see, I leave to thee the care of My mother Keep her from me until I finish this passion' 'An é sin mo leanbh a d'iomchar mé trí páithe No an é sin an leanbh d'oileadh i n-ucht Mháire' 'Is that my child that I carried for three quarters of a year Or is that the child that was reared in the bosom of Mary' Chaitheadar anuas é 'na spólaibh geárrtha 'Sin chugaibh anois é agus caoinigidh bhur sáith air' They let fall his lacerated body 'There he is for you now, and keen over him' 'Glaodh ar na tri Mhuire go gcaoinfimid ár ngrádh geal' ''Tá do chuid mná-caointe le breith fós a mháthair' 'Call the three Marys until we keen our bright love' 'The women who will keen me are yet to be born, O Mother' |
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30 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM (#3798469) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Both Jim Carrol and myself posted version to one of your threads in the past week or two. A version sung by Joe John Mac Con Iomaire Another one by Iarla Ó Lionard |
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30 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM (#3798475) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST,Modette You don't understand anything about sean-nós, do you keberoxu? Do you actually know what the term means? Why is it important for you to seek focus on the publications of a member of the British Ascendancy, Hyde? What point are you really trying to make? |
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30 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM (#3798485) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: keberoxu If...then. If you want to know more about the original poster, then you may click below the music threads on the Triage thread in the BS section. If, of course. (Maiseadh=ma-is-eadh='MUSHA', if--then. Live and learn, folks.) |
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30 Jun 16 - 05:20 PM (#3798499) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: keberoxu You can also look up the "Deirdre Ni Fhloinn" thread if you want more about me in a musical context. If, that is. |
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30 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM (#3798502) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: Felipa Keberoxu, if you must start a new thread (I dont know how long the previous Caoineadh na dTrí Mhuire threads are), you could at least provide a link to one or more previous threads. Modette, I think that is a really unfair comment re Dubhghlas de hIde and Keberoxu's interest in his collections of Irish song. Without people like him collecting folklore and language of the people, much of our heritage would have been lost. And you can find similar examples among folklorists in other countries. In the context of Ireland, there were people from the ascendancy who were actively involved in campaigning for Irish independence. Also in the context of the sectarian divisions in Ireland, I would rather point out that Protestants like de Ide were active in promoting the Irish language. He was at one time president of the Gaelic League, and later on Uachtaran (President) of the republic of Ireland. |
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01 Jul 16 - 01:04 AM (#3798539) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: Stilly River Sage "Modette" is deleted as often as his/her posts are allowed to stay. If no one had responded yet this one would have vanished. He's a piece of work who seems to mostly inhabit the edges just to poke sharp sticks in the eyes of members and moderators alike. Pay him no mind. |
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01 Jul 16 - 09:21 AM (#3798584) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: leeneia Good for you, Felipa and Acme. |
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15 Jul 16 - 02:52 PM (#3800440) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: Joe Offer Felipa, I don't see any previous threads on "Caoineadh na dTrà Mhuire." If you know of any, let me know and I'll combine or crosslink them. There are some lyrics and some information on the song on the thread titled Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer. Here are a couple versions from that thread. Thread #69073 Message #3795495 Posted By: Jim Carroll 14-Jun-16 - 05:09 AM Thread Name: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer Subject: RE: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer
Original in Irish Thread #69073 Message #3795499 Posted By: GUEST,Peter Laban 14-Jun-16 - 05:32 AM Thread Name: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer Subject: RE: Maire Ni Scolai (1909 - 1985) traditional singer
I seem to have a version with some extra verses here. I don't remember where it came from. I used it when teaching the air on the pipes. |
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07 Aug 16 - 04:55 PM (#3804069) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na Tri Muire (sean-nos) From: keberoxu Another day, another mis-spelled song title. Par for the course when it's me doing the posting. The Three Marys are of course "Mhuire." I was careless when posting the OP, copying from the Hyde-edited anthology; the Gaelic print in the anthology follows the convention of a dot above any given consonant, which indicates that the consonant is followed by an aitch. Unless you know what the dots are there for, the name on the page looks like "Muire" but of course it isn't. Actually, looking up the printed sources and the numerous recordings, some disagreement over the title itself surfaces. Joe Heaney, it is stated, used a different title for this particular song, and if I read his commentary right, he learned it orally, not from a printed book. An earlier recording than Heaney, or for that matter Ní Ghuairim, is the 1938 recording for HMV by Máire Ní Scolaí but, as Jim Carroll has kindly pointed out on the thread about the latter singer, she was not a sean-nós artist as such, but a concert performer whose repertoire included arrangements of traditional material. This recording, originally a '78 single, is of a concert-hall arrangement for voice with the accompaniment, imitating a harp, for a piano; in which regard the performance sounds that much more European-classical than traditional. I don't see an arranger credited on the label; the pianist is Duncan Morrison, but that doesn't mean he wrote it down himself. From my experience with classical songs with piano, it seems safe to presume that the pianist is playing, not by ear, but from a written or printed piece of sheet music on the piano's music stand: this is the convention in classical art song, that even if the pianist knows the music by heart, that music score is up there on the piano in performance. In that the performance convention differs from solo classical pianists, who centuries ago had the score in front of them in performance, but over time decided to perform from memory instead. Anyhow, back to the title. The song title, as identified in the thread title (mis-spelling and all), appears in the Hyde edition and on Ní Scolaí's recording; I don't know, but the connection could be a direct one, as in, whoever wrote Ní Scolaí's arrangement might have been working directly from the Hyde version. In any event, a precedent was set, and more recent recorded performances seem to agree on the "Tri Mhuire" title. |
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07 Aug 16 - 05:13 PM (#3804074) Subject: RE: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire From: Felipa Caoineadh na dTrí Mhuire |
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21 Apr 19 - 06:15 AM (#3988450) Subject: RE: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire) From: Felipa reviving this song thread for Easter; really I should have done this on Friday. What a distressing image of a woman seeing her child suffer! But still a beautiful lament. best known recordings of this Caoineadh are by men Seosamh O hEanaí Cóír Chúil Aodh though you could argue that it is a woman's song Nóirín Ní Riain (links to youtube recordings; there are a few recordings by other artists on the site as well. And Peter Laban provided two links to recordings earlier on in this discussion. I haven't checked whether the links are still working.) ----- re Muire/Mhuire, as noted by Keberoxu; Mh has a w sound. The alteration of the name Muire happens because it is preceded by a number, Trí (three). Trí itself is lenited because of the genitive, this is the keen "of the" (na d)Marys. |
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21 Apr 19 - 08:08 PM (#3988511) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: leeneia I've read two or three translations of this and it's hard to see how three Marys come into it. There is just one, the mother of Jesus. I suspect somebody got confused by the ballad called 'The Four Maries.' |
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21 Apr 19 - 08:21 PM (#3988512) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST,keberoxu I hope that somebody who is more Gospel-literate than I, will come up with the quotes, but this is indeed from scripture. It is from the Passion, but I don't know which Apostle/ Gospel book it comes from. That particular book of the Gospel asserts that Mary the mother of Salome, and Mary out of whom Jesus had cast seven devils, were with the mother Mary at Calvary, keeping vigil by the cross. For obvious reasons Mary the Virgin Mother does most of the talking amongst the women, but there is a verse at the very very end -- two women speak to each other. What shall we do with his body? the other replies, But we don't even have his bones. |
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22 Apr 19 - 01:45 AM (#3988520) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST 'Peter Laban provided two links to recordings earlier on in this discussion. I haven't checked whether the links are still working' The youtube videos I linked to before were removed. But the same clips were posted elsewhere so here you go: Joe John Mac Con Iomaire Iarla Ó Lionáird The website dedicated to Joe Heaney gives a full text and some background here From that site: 'The song is best understood as a conversation between a number of participants including Peter, Jesus, the Blessed Virgin, and the Roman soldiers. This device advances the story with the greatest possible economy, allowing us to focus on the emotional intensity of each moment, from the viciousness of the soldiers to the disbelief and distress of Mary and finally to the quiet stoicism of Jesus, offering comfort to his distraught mother.' |
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22 Apr 19 - 01:47 AM (#3988522) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST,Peter Laban I forgot to mention the version as sung by Sorcha Ní Ghuairim uses a different tune. If memory serves. Like all her singing, it's lovely. |
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22 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM (#3988544) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST,Peter Laban And here it is : Caoineadh Na dTrí Mhuire · Sorcha Ní Ghuairim |
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22 Apr 19 - 09:49 AM (#3988553) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire (sean-nos) From: GUEST Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen ~ John 19:25? |
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02 Apr 21 - 12:37 PM (#4100419) Subject: Lyr Add: Caoineadh na Páise From: Felipa Refreshing this thread as we approach "Good Friday". John Joe Mac Con Iomaire https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xdjiz There is already a link above for Joe Heaney (Seosamh Ó hÉanaí), but I give a couple more here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLBLmjovIrY (lyrics posted in comments) https://www.joeheaney.org/en/caoineadh-na-dtri-muire-1/ "Angela Partridge, recording the song in 1975 from a near neighbour of Joe’s in Aird Thoir, Máire a’ Ghabha (Máire Bean Uí Cheannabháin), describes how the singer broke down in tears in the middle of the song and was unable to continue, saying ‘Tá mé goite chomh fada ansin is tá mé in ann… mar léifidh tú scéal ar ‘chuile mháthair, mar nach mbeidh ‘chuile mháthair mar sin lena mac féin? Gortaíonn Caoineadh na Páise mé an-mhór.’ (I’ve gone as far as I can… for you know it’s the story of every mother, for wouldn’t every mother be like that with her own son? Caoineadh na Páise really hurts me.)" Although /caoineadh na dTrí Mhuire was known in Joe Heaney's district as Caoineadh na Páise (Keen/Lament of the Passion), he also had another song by that title. Amhrán na Páise - song of the passion - recording, chat and lyrics at https://www.joeheaney.org/en/amhran-na-paise/ and song on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6aYN3_cFqs&t=17s ‘S é Íosa an Fíréan, Dia dílis don Athair Ó, is é a rinne ár gceannacht ón daoirse; Nuair a d’fhulaing sé an Pháis agus bás ar an gcroich Ag tabhairt sásaimh sna peacaí seo a níonns muid. Tá an t-arán seo déanta i d’fhianaise, a Pheadair, A Pheadair, caithidh an t-arán seo; [An] té chaithfeas an t-arán seo, caithfidh sé mise, Idir fheoil, anam is diachta. Is aililiú leá is aililiú, ailiú is aililiú Má maslaíthear ár gcolainn ní baolach dár n-anam Ná séanaigí m’ainmse choíche. Tá an fíon seo déanta i d’fhianaise, a Pheadair, A Pheadair, ólaidh an fíon seo; [An] té ólfas an fíon seo, ólfaidh sé an fhuil A bhí ag tíocht ‘na braonta as mo thaobhsa. Curfá [chorus] Siúlaigí amach sa ngairdín, a Pheadair, Tá uaigneas mór ar mo chroí-se; ‘S é meáchan na bpeacaí is ciontach le m’uaigneas Is fairigí uair liom an oíche seo. Éirígí suas a tromluí a gcodladh Ní fada uaim saighdiúir mo dhaoirse Rinne sibh faillí fanacht ‘na maidin ‘S ní bhfuair [gur] chaith sibh an oíche seo. Curfá Tá sé ráite i dtairgearacht Mhaitiú Leis an magadh a fuair Íosa Gur éirigh an coileach a bhí ag fiuchadh sa bpota, Chuaigh ar an mbord is lig glao as. Curfá, Tháinig na trí Muire ar maidin Dé Domhnaigh Go leigheasfaidís cneácha Íosa. Chuartaíodar an tuamba thart timpeall go gasta, Ní bhfuaireadar amharc ar Íosa. Tháinig an t-aingeal anuas as na Flaithis Is d’ardaigh an leac ina bhfianaise Bhí leac ar an tuamba, ní thógfadh céad pearsa í, Ach thóg an t-aingeal a bhí naofa í. Curfá Joe Heaney said: "It tells you about the Garden of Gethsemane. It tells you about the making of bread and wine, the making of communion and wine at the Last Supper. It tells you about how Christ told St Peter he’d deny him three times before the cock crew. And Peter of course said he wouldn’t. They said they’d watch with him in the Garden, and they all fell asleep. And Peter was visiting a house – Thursday, Holy Thursday they call it – and a girl came up to him and asked him, ‘do you know that man they was chasing tonight, to crucify him?’ And Peter said, ‘I never saw him in me life.’ And she asked him again, and he said ‘I don’t know that man.’ He was afraid for himself, nature being what it is. And the third time she asked him, he denied it, and the cock crew – and Peter ran out the door crying. "Now, after the burial of Christ, you know, the Three Marys – Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and John, and [the] Blessed Virgin – came to the tomb on Easter Sunday morning to put something on the wounds of Christ, you know, to leave something under the stone to cure, to help the wounds heal. And they found the tombstone thrown aside. And the Roman soldiers knocked down – They’re looking up at the sky. They couldn’t see anything. And they said they’d never believe he’d risen from the dead. They said some people came and stole it. And somebody else said, ‘There’s nobody could lift that tombstone – not while ye were around here watching.’ And they said, ‘until the chicken that’s boiling in the pot gets up on the table and flaps its wings, we’ll never believe he rose from the dead.’* And they went into the house next door, and the pot was boiling on the fire, and the chicken jumped out of the pot up on the table and started flapping its wing. And St Thomas said, ‘I’ll never believe,’ he said, ‘until I can put my fingers through the holes in his hands and feet.’ And two days after, he [Christ] met Thomas, you know, and he said to Thomas, ‘Thomas, put your fingers through my hand. I feel sorry for your lack of faith,’ [he] said [to] St Thomas." *I quite like the resurrection of the cockerel: Leis an magadh a fuair Íosa Gur éirigh an coileach a bhí ag fiuchadh sa bpota, Chuaigh ar an mbord is lig glao as. - with the mocking that Jesus got, the cock who was boiling in the pot rose up, went on the table, and crowed I don't see lines about putting fingers through the holes in Jesus' hand. The final verses given here say that the three Marys came on Sunday but found the tomb empty. The angel came from heaven and lifted the tombstone. A hundred people couldn't lifet it, but the holy angel did. |
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03 Apr 21 - 06:26 PM (#4100652) Subject: Re: Caoineadh na Páise & Amhrán na Páise From: Felipa Caoineadh na Páise (Keen/Lament of the Passion) is another name for Caoineadh na dTrí Muire. Amhrán na Páise (Song of the Passion) is the title of the other song, added in my immediately previous message, the words of which are not a lament as such. Páis (genitive form Páise) in Irish has a specific meaning, unlike the broader or multiple meanings of the word "passion" in English. |