13 Jan 17 - 03:40 PM (#3832403) Subject: Lyr Req: Song translation from Latin, please From: Stower Are there any Latin speakers who could translate the following, please? It's a Polish 15th century Cracow Academy students' song. I'd like a literal translation in the same format, line by line, so I can then play with the language to bring it to the same rhythm and rhyme scheme in English. Breve regnum erigitur, Sublimatum deprimitur Et depressum elabitur Transmutato tempore. Puerilem miliciam, Perargutam periciam, Regencium industriam, Hanc eduxit in opere. Cracoviensem filium, Fulgentem velut lilium Ac de numero milium Cunctis preferendum. Octo dierum spacium Hoc sustinet solacium, Post hoc regis pallacium Plagis feriendum. Namque regis elleccio Fit studii negleccio Ac desolatur leccio Tota septimana. |
13 Jan 17 - 04:28 PM (#3832414) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Joe Offer Hi, Stower - Gee, it's things like this that remind me how little I know after 6 years of Latin study. I hope you don't mind that I changed the thread title to specify the song we're talking about, so we can make it into a study of the song and not just a translation. It's an interesting song, although what I'm finding about it so far is in Russian and Polish. Here's a YouTube video: Here's another recording, with photos from Krakow's Jagellonian University: |
13 Jan 17 - 04:35 PM (#3832416) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Joe Offer I suppose a good first step would be to go to Google and search for translate latin to english. Then I paste the Latin into the text box that appears, and English magically comes out the other side (more or less - less, in this case). And then I take out my Oxford Latin Desk Dictionary and try to translate the untranslatable - finding that most of the untranslated words are not in my dictionary. And I wonder why Oxford no longer has a really good Latin dictionary, like my old Cassel's was. So, anyhow, I'll put my changes in parentheses over the next few days. I hope others will post their attempts below, and I will add them in parentheses to this work in progress. But now I have other things to do.
So, I'm hoping you catch on to what this is all about: a 14th-century description of the age-old student quandary: to drink, or to study. Even in Poland, it was a problem. |
13 Jan 17 - 06:44 PM (#3832434) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Stower Thanks so much, Joe. I tried Google translation tools, but some words weren't translated, some translated to words I don't think are English, and much of what was left is incomprehensible to me! What you've done above is making more sense of it than I've been able to make till now. Some of it is still a mystery. What are depressed slips? What do the second and third verses mean? The context of the song is reminiscent of the ecclesiastical medieval Feast of Fools. In 15th century Kraków, every year for 7 days from the 15th of October, students took over the running of the university. They elected a student king, who made rules for the week. They missed lectures and indulged in a week-long party. When the week was over, the 'king' was held responsible for all misdeeds and excesses and punished by the university, which doesn't seem like a good deal to me! The story of the manuscript, PL-Wn MS III.8054, previously Krasinski 52, colloquially known as Kras 52, now in the Polish National Library in Warsaw, is quite a tale. Krasiński Library, Warsaw, where it was previously kept, was set alight by the Nazis in 1944. The manuscript only survived because it was stolen by one of the Nazi soldiers. It was only returned to Poland and seen for what it is after it ended up in Munich Library then spotted in 1948 by a Polish scholar who wasn't looking for it but recognised what it was. I look forward to seeing your progress over the next few days, and thank you so much. |
13 Jan 17 - 07:41 PM (#3832442) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Joe Offer I bought the Oxford Latin Desk Dictionary from Amazon last summer, thinking it would be equal to the quality of the Oxford Concise German and Spanish dictionaries that I like so much. Well, the "Desk Dictionary" is more-or-less worthless, so my struggles with it this afternoon inspired me to write a critical review on Amazon, and to order a Cassell's Latin Dictionary (which I hope is like the one I used to have). I'm guessing "depressum elabitur" is going to mean something like "sad feelings are expressed." It's a rather entertaining rhyme scheme, but I think it makes for some fairly obscure Latin. In the first verse, every line but the last ends with a verb in the passive voice, third person singular. This is Polish college student Latin, not Cicero. Oy. -Joe- |
13 Jan 17 - 09:18 PM (#3832452) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: GUEST,.gargoyle The original poster does not supply a tune. IMHO - it appears to be a spoof of "Gaudeamus Igitur". I do not understand Mr Joe how you believe those two youtube misfits are related. Sincerely, Gargoyle What an amazing world God hath wept. |
13 Jan 17 - 09:46 PM (#3832456) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Joe Offer How the two are related, garg? Ahhhhhhh....the words? The melodies are somewhat similar, but the words in both are the same as what's posted above. And yes, I guess you could say it follows along the schoolboy Latin vein of "Gaudeamus Igitur," and all those Ivy League songbooks with Latinized names like "Carmina Princetonienses." -Joe- |
14 Jan 17 - 03:25 AM (#3832472) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Monique Tools for Latin and other languages. |
14 Jan 17 - 04:42 AM (#3832483) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Stower I didn't think to supply a tune, but it is a great one. Here it is. |
14 Jan 17 - 06:59 AM (#3832502) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: FreddyHeadey I wondered if you'd find people to help on a Latin discussion forum like http://latindiscussion.com/forum/forums/latin-to-english-translation.1/ . I don't know if you have to join up though. |
14 Jan 17 - 10:08 AM (#3832535) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Stower Thanks, Freddy. I just joined up and couldn't see how to post, then saw the notice, "You have insufficient privileges to post here." Oh well, it was a nice thought. Monique, thanks for the link to Tools for Latin. I may resort to that eventually. Idioms are difficult to spot for a non-user of a language, so for the time being I'll hold out for someone who knows Latin. |
14 Jan 17 - 08:52 PM (#3832658) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Jack Campin Translation into Polish any good? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opqGxJnjeis |
15 Jan 17 - 03:07 AM (#3832682) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Joe Offer I have a decent Latin dictionary on order, and should be able to do a better translation when it arrives. -Joe- |
15 Jan 17 - 02:28 PM (#3832809) Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur From: Stower Thanks, Jack. I'd have to have it translated from Polish! I'd also have a question about how much liberty the Polish translation has taken, as it scans and has been versified, and some liberties are sometimes necessary in that process. I want to versify myself in English, but from the Latin so that I know I'm working on the Latin only, not also ideas the Polish versifier introduced. Via John Robinson, who does the tablature books for the lute society, I have been in touch with Mathias Rösel, who has very kindly sent me his translation from the Latin, as follows: A shortly lasting kingdom is raised Extolled, it is lowered And depressed, it slips away As time has been changed Boyish / childish soldiery Very witty experience Hard work of leaders That's what it brought up for real A son of Cracow Shining like a lily Even from thousands To be preferred to all In a period of eight days It maintains this comfort After that, the king's palace Must be blown with strokes To wit the king's choice Turns into disregard of study And lecture is left lonely The whole week Joe, this doesn't mean I wouldn't value your view, too, as translation has elements of interpretation. |