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06 Feb 17 - 04:30 AM (#3837024) Subject: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,Andy C Can anyone help with a translation of the medieval German song 'Winter wie ist nun dein kraft'. My schoolboy German can get the gist of it, but there are sill quite a few holes. I guess that Early German changed as much as early English. |
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06 Feb 17 - 03:16 PM (#3837146) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: michaelr If you post the text, I'll be happy to help with the translation. |
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06 Feb 17 - 03:19 PM (#3837149) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: leeneia the lyrics can be seen at this rather dodgy site: http://www.lyricsmania.com/winder_wie_ist_nun_dein_kraft_lyrics_des_teufels_lockv%C3%B6gel.html Why does the URL say "not secure"? I've never seen that before. I don't understand the lyrics either. |
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06 Feb 17 - 05:54 PM (#3837173) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: Joe Offer I got the lyrics from what looks to be a German version of the Website leeneia found. I'm guessing Leeneia is using Google Chrome. This month, Google started giving warnings on Websites (like Mudcat) that don't have certain security features. Apparently, this song was recorded by a group called "Des Teufels Lockvogel" (the devil's decoy bird) WINDER WIE IST NUN DEIN KRAFT Winder wie ist nun dein kraft Worden gar unsinnighaft Seyt der mayen seinen schaft Auf der hat verstochen Vor dem walden auf dem plan Sicht man volkumlichen stan Liechte plümlein wolgethan Der han ich gesprochen Gar besunder durch ein wunder Solches kunder ich vernahm Man und frauen ir sult schauen In den auen ohne scham Wie des liechten mayen schar Stet beglait in purpur far Junge maidt das nemet war Bleibet unversprochen Wie sie tanzen und auch swanzen Mit ir glanzen swibelswanzen Da die klinget so sie springet Und auch singent vor zu tanzen Claget nicht den winter kalt Ir solt sein an freuden bald Freut euch beide jungk und alt Gein dem süeßen mayen Torst ich vor der frauen mein Ich wollt mit auch frölich sein Nun zwingt mich ein andre pein Daß ich nicht mag gerayen Von des weise ich nu greise Der mir leyse sleichet nach Unverporgen alle morgen In den sorgen ich vermach Meiner frauen die ist her Ich will daß sie mein emper Zwar ich dien ir nimmer mer Es get an ein zwayen Mehr songtexte: http://www.songtextemania.com/winder_wie_ist_nun_dein_kraft_songtext_des_teufels_lockvogel.html Alle Infos über Des Teufels+Lockvogel: http://www.musictory.de/musik/ Here's a recording: |
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06 Feb 17 - 09:54 PM (#3837219) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: keberoxu This period of music history is well outside any area of expertise to which I might presume. Others, however, have studied it and published about it. There appear to be lots of German-language publications. Online I encountered one study by co-authors Ulrich Müller and Ingrid Bennewitz, "auf deutsch," dating from 2007. My search engine results pulled up their book, because this song is in it. Within the book's pages, they compare two different sources and print the variants side by side. One of the medieval source poets is identified as Neidhart von Reuenthal, a name I have never seen before. |
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06 Feb 17 - 10:11 PM (#3837220) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,keberoxu If this YouTube link works, it will take you to an audio recording of a duo, actually singing the above song. "Winther wie is nu dei kraft" |
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07 Feb 17 - 06:03 AM (#3837265) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,Andy C Thanks to everyone that answered. I have the Early German lyrics, I was wondering if anyone could help with a translation either into Modern German or English. I know that its a bit of a long shot but thanks anyway. |
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07 Feb 17 - 09:08 AM (#3837305) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: Jack Campin I have an old CD entirely of Neidhart's work (can't find a reference to it on the web). If it's one of his, it's quite likely it will have been included and there will be a translation on the sleeve notes; I'll look when I get home tonight. |
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07 Feb 17 - 10:33 AM (#3837330) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: leeneia Thanks for the info about Chrome, Joe. However, the "not secure" warning does not appear on Mudcat even now, as I'm typing this. Jack, I look forward to your translation. |
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07 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM (#3837333) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: Jack Campin Lyrics sites have always been among the dodgiest on the web for spreading malware. I'd take Google at their word. |
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07 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM (#3837334) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: leeneia I've listened three times to the YouTube that Joe linked. There are serious differences between the lyrics printed here and what is being sung. The YouTube has far fewer verses. |
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07 Feb 17 - 11:30 AM (#3837352) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: DaveRo Chrome's new warning mainly applies to insecure pages (http not https) that have a password field - that's one which shows asterisks when you type. |
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07 Feb 17 - 12:54 PM (#3837370) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,Grishka Folk groups will folk-process any lyrics, that's their job. Thus, the lyrics above are quite a bit off what Neidhart wrote (or may have written). Since the poem is featured in the well-known and well-researched "Codex Manesse", translations and commentary abound - in print. My quick Googling did not yield an authoritative result on the web, but more patience may be rewarded. As you correctly assumed, Middle High German is almost as distant from modern German as Middle English is form modern English. Singers nowadays tend to compromise, and so do the lyrics above. OK for performing, but not for scholarly treatment. For example, I suspect that "unsinnighaft" is quite nonsensical and thus a misunderstanding, but then I do not know the correct word, which may well make even less sense to modern ears. |
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07 Feb 17 - 01:03 PM (#3837372) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST I can't find the entire translation online for some reason; but a singable English translation exists, and has been published with the music. All I know is that it begins with the phrase "Winter, gone is all your power." Grishka, since you mentioned the example: Ulrich Müller and Ingrid Bennewitz, with their two versions copied out from medieval sources, print the word "unsighaft" rather than "unsinnighaft." With my smattering of German, I am speculating that "Sieg" is the modified word, "unsieg-haft." So, Winter's power has become "gar unsieg-haft," quite ... un fight worthy? The gist of the song, AndyC, seems to be that Spring is coming, and Winter is losing its grip. |
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07 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM (#3837381) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,Grishka Yes, Guest, "unsighaft" makes more sense: non-victorious. My shameless (- totally uninformed, probably unsinnighaft -) guess about the gist is: "Now that spring has come, we should be shameless. My lady does not want me, so I may as well get me a second one". For more accuracy, we had best rely on one of the many existing books about Manesse (cf. also Neidhart). |
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07 Feb 17 - 02:25 PM (#3837383) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,keberoxu I'm surprised! Where is everybody! Just some rough and random opinions: Verse 1 Winter, how is now your strength Become quite un-victorious, since May took up your lance and broke it in half over you! I'm going to leave Verse 2 alone. Verse 3, at least the final two lines, describes how a man and a woman may, erm, go sight-seeing in the spring meadows without shame. (fa la la la la la la laaaaaa....) Verse 4 praises the hosts of May clothed in purple, and suggest to the young maidens that they remain "unspoken-for," in other words, don't be too hasty to limit yourself to one fellow. Verse 6 "claget nicht den winter kalt" says that no longer need we complain about winter's cold, rather we should now, be we young or old, rejoice in sweet Maytime. and that's as far as I will venture. |
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07 Feb 17 - 07:39 PM (#3837437) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: Jack Campin I can't find the CD I thought I had. Maybe it was actually an LP, in which case it'll take some digging. Here is the version in John Horton's "A Book of Early Music". Winder wie is nu dein kraft Winter, now your end is near; worden gar unsigehaft you are stricken dumb with fear set der maye seinen schafft since bold May with his strong spear auff die hat zustochen. surely has defeated you. Vor den wälden auff der plan By the woods and all around sucht man volkumlichen stan on the trees and on the ground liechte plümblein wolgethan countless blossoms can be found; der han ich geprochen joyfully I pluck them. Gar besunder durch ein wunder solches kunder ich vernahm. In the spring is everything refurbishing for all to see. Man und frauen ir sult schawen in den awen one scham Man and maid, be not afraid as through the glade you wander free. Wie des lichten mayen schar When these flowers with colours gay stet beclait in purpurfar stand in glorious array Jungen maidt, das menet war, Girls, take warning while you may; bleibet unversprochen let no man deceive you. |
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07 Feb 17 - 08:44 PM (#3837452) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: michaelr I found a different version from a band called Schelmisch here. This looks more like Mittelhochdeutsch to me than the text posted above. I then consulted Gerhard Koebler's Mittelhochdeutsches Woerterbuch to look up the words. I make no claim to have got it right, but it makes some sense. Winder wie ist nû dîn kraft Winter, how is now your power Worden gar unsigehaft Become quite non-victorious Sît der meie sînen schaft Since May its shaft Hat ûf dir verstochen Has plunged into you Vor den welden ûf dem plân Before the forest on the field Siht man wunneclîchen stân One sees happily standing Liehtiu bluemel wolgetan Bright small flowers pleasant Der hân ich gebrochen I have broken (plucked) one Gar besunder durch ein wunder Quite exceptionally by a miracle Solchez kunder ich vernam Such news I heard Man und vrouwen, ir sult schouwen Men and women, you must see In den ouwen âne scham In the meadows without shame Wie des liehten meien schar How the bright May's crowd Stât bekleit in purper var Stands clothed in purple color Jungen meid des nemet war Young maid ovserving this Belîbet unversprochen Remains unpromised (not spoken for) Klaget niht den winter kalt Mourn not the winter cold Ir sult sîn an vröuden balt You shall be joyous soon Vröut iuch, beide junc und alt Rejoice, both young and old Gein dem süezen meien For the sweet May Torstè ich vor der vrouwen mîn I dared before my woman Mit iu wollt ich vrolich sîn With her I would be joyful Nû twinget mich ein ander Pîn Now another pain forces me Daz ich nîht mac greien That I don't like to dance In der wîse ich nû grise In this way I now grow old Also lîse sliche ich nâch And so quietly I creep after Unverborgen alle morgen Obviously every morning In den sorgen ich versmâh In the troubles I abhor Mîner vrouwen, diust so her: Of my woman, tears at me Sie spricht, ich tuo it leit und ser She says, I do it sadly and sorely Zwâr ich dien ir niemer mèr; Surely I'll serve her nevermore Ez get an ein zweien There will be a split |
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08 Feb 17 - 04:48 AM (#3837487) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST,Grishka Well done, Michael! "Teufels Lockvogel" use a different pick of verses; obviously the original poem is much longer. Who finds the complete lyrics in their original wording? I think (without any authority) that "Jungen meid des nemet war Belîbet unversprochen" may mean "Girls, observe this: Remain unbetrothed" - imperative mood. For "Klaget niht den winter kalt", I would guess either "Don't complain about the cold winter" or "Don't blame the cold winter". Also, the sense of the last verse could do with some clarification. "She says, I do it sadly and sorely" sounds a bit, ehem ... According to that dictionary, "it" can mean "something" (like Dutch "iets"), thus the phrase may mean "She tells me I'm doing something that insults her". |
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08 Feb 17 - 09:02 AM (#3837537) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: leeneia Thanks, keberoxu and michaelr. That's interesting. |
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10 Feb 17 - 02:21 AM (#3837906) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Winter wie ist nun dein kraft From: GUEST Thanks again to everybody. Loads of info here for me to delve into. I have been playing the tune for a number of years and thought it was time that I investigated the lyrics, but kept hitting brick walls. Andy C |
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17 May 18 - 02:50 PM (#3925285) Subject: RE: ADD: (Winter) Winder wie ist nun dein Kraft From: Stower I'd be very grateful if someone can give a translation of the third of fourth verses - michaelr? Grishka? anyone? A web trawl and a search in every book on Neidhart I can lay my hands on yields nothing. Laisen wir des maien pot Ich pin meiner frawen spott Nú muß sie auch gesegen gott Ich wil von ir keren. Wem lies ich denn mein gelt? Ich will auf das Marichfelt Da die ganczen gendt enczelt Die wil ich nu leren. Wie sie tanczen Und auch swanczen Mit ir glanczen Swibelswanczen Da die klingent So sie springent Vor zu tancze So sweben ode (?odc ?odo) kragen empor Und achten niemancz umb ein har Zwar sie geben nichcz empfor Lúment als die pern. Ir gogelweis der ist so vil Wenn sie haben gempelspil Mit den fússen zu dem zil Kúnnen sie wol schocken Auf den zehen siffelns hin Nach dem newen hofsin - das ist gar mein ungewin – Mit iren laiden locken. Wie sie wencken Und auch lencken Und verschrencken Tanczens tritt So ist mein gedencken Wie ichs möcht krencken Und geschrencken In, damit Ir freud wird kranck Dornach stet mir mein gedanck So ist springen und ir spanck Gar gleich den pöcken. |
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17 May 18 - 02:52 PM (#3925286) Subject: RE: ADD: (Winter) Winder wie ist nun dein Kraft From: Stower I copied and pasted the words above and see that some of the accents have disappeared. I hope it is understandable without. |