Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail

04 Apr 17 - 08:46 PM (#3848663)
Subject: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external H
From: Stilly River Sage

Time again to consider how I am backing up my computer. I currently have an external hard drive where I do a periodic full backup, but I'd really rather have an incremental backup every day or two. I put the external drive out of sight in the off chance that the house is ever burgled again and I have at least that to fall back on.

I have two UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supplies), one for the computer and monitors, and one for the router and modem that live on the top shelf in the hall closet. Out of sight, out of mind. Probably out of view of any burglars.

My house is networked (wired), the computers and the BluRay players all talk to each other, as does my phone. Has anyone put an external hard drive with a UPS and router (plus I have a switch in the closet because there are data ports in most rooms of the house) and backed up computers through the network? I imagine it would take longer that way, but once the initial backup is in place, the incremental ones would be a snap (last full backup when the current external drive was new took a couple of days - I backed up everything.)

My computer has two internal HDD drives, both very large, and a modest sized SSD drive with just the operating system on it. I have an external drive at my desk also plugged into the computer (a now-seven-year-old HP quad core running Win 10).

I tend to leave the computer on much of the time, with it set to go into sleep mode after a couple of hours of inactivity.

I need to pull out the instructions for the UPS in the closet, though that one doesn't talk to the computer like the one in the office itself does. I can run a data line from my office computer, through the wall and attic and down to that other UPS, but it might be confusing to have two connected. My network is through the router and switch.

Does this provide enough information? One of these days I will get a new desktop and plug all of this stuff into it (printer, scanner, USB hub for frequently used cables - phone, camera, mp3, extra mouse and extra keyboard). I have a Canopus card plugged in for converting VHS to digital, and the computer is in the proximity of a stereo system to run cassettes or LPs into it for capture.

Every so often I go through an upgrade, when the computer capacity is a problem or the OS changes, but for now it's okay. Win10 Ultimate is up and running. But that backup - something it's too easy to overlook but important for so many reasons.

Thoughts?

---

04 Apr 17 - 10:38 PM (#3848666)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Bill D

It seems to me that you have as well thought out a system as almost anyone I know. I actually gave up on using a UPS several years ago, and my backups are now just the things most important to me..... my GEDCOM files, my music/video files and my copies of my program installation files..(portable/zip whenever possible). I have several large capacity portable HDS and several good USB thumb drives.

It never dawned on me that one COULD connect a UPS with an external drive, but these days almost anything you can think of has been implemented.

The ONLY thing I'd even offer to someone that careful is a list of incremental backup programs. I use Cobian Backup myself, but it is no longer under development, and I have seen others suggested in the alt.comp.freeware newsgroup.

---

05 Apr 17 - 01:47 AM (#3848677)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Joe Offer

I have a number of external hard drives and a Network Attached Storage device with two hard drives. I do manual backups on occasion, but haven't found an incremental backup software program that I like.

I installed Carbonite at the women's center where I used to work, and I was very pleased with it. It's only $60 a year for unlimited storage for one computer, and you can access your data anywhere.

One of the staff members insisted I had installed the program incorrectly, and she changed the Carbonite settings on all our computers (without consulting me) and texted me to say that she and the board of directors wanted to know why I did not have the backup set up properly. It was indeed working properly. But that's why I quit my IT volunteer job at the women's center after 18 years.

The employee got a virus, and then backed up her infected computer to Carbonite. Nonetheless, Carbonite technicians were able to restore older versions of her data files. And she had the nerve to complain about the files being a week or two old (after she had infected the most recent backup.

But Carbonite worked properly, despite concerted efforts by an idiot to screw it up.

-Joe-

---

05 Apr 17 - 03:22 AM (#3848687)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

A few thoughts:

The best feature I found in Win 10, having upgraded my wife's laptop from Win 7, is its File History incremental backup. She backs up to a 'passport' USB3 drive.

The obvious network backup device is a 'home NAS' box. My son has one made by QNAP. It's a RAID device, so supposedly less subject to data loss than an individual HD, though I would mistrust cheap ones. He stores masses a stuff, including music, on it.

You can also hang drives on a router. I fancied a Turris OSS router a while ago but it was too expensive. But cheap routers are increasingly vulnerable to outside attack, and my new Netgear router is not great in that respect, so I may still get one.

The main complication, IMO, is mitigating the threat posed by ramsomware. Some of that will encrypt every connected drive, including networked drives (or networked shares). For that reason my wife's USB drive is not kept plugged in, which makes the process non-automatic. If you're backing up to a permanently network-connected device you need to investigate how to protect it. I don't know how NAS boxes do that, but if I were buying one I'd certainly want to. And I wouldn't trust anti-malware software alone to do it. One reason I liked the Turris+HD setup was that it would be very unusual, unlikely to be targeted by malware writers, and patchable long-term (unlike Netgear).

I do incremental backups over a wired network connection, but using Linux. It's pretty quick (I use rsync). I considered backing the Win 10 boxes (I have one too) to the same drives but the problem I hit was that my Linux drives are all accessed via NFS and you need Windows 10 Enterprise (IIRC) to use them - which is expensive. I don't know how NAS boxes do it - maybe they include NFS drivers.

Hope some if that helps.

---

05 Apr 17 - 09:58 AM (#3848811)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: punkfolkrocker

Joe - it was petty treacherous women like that why I packed in a lifetime's community voluntary work 15 years ago...

never again..

---

06 Apr 17 - 12:00 AM (#3848956)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

DaveRo, that ransomware threat is a consideration, part of the reason why I thought about putting the backup on the network and not directly on the main desktop. It might be something I'll have to leave in place but disconnect until I want to do an incremental backup. There is an internal backup that is incremental, something that Windows will do and I set up, but that's helpful only to a point.

Norton Ghost stopped being produced several years ago. That's what I used previously. Win10 doesn't support it, though Win7 did. I guess Symantec decided Windows had the backup needs covered.

---

06 Apr 17 - 04:20 AM (#3848997)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

Before the upgrade to Win 10 we used the built-in 'Win 7 backup', which is a non-incremental selective backup. We backed it up to my 'music and backup server' - which was effectively a NAS but was actually a 10-year old Linux desktop. Win 7 backed up to a shared drive. It worked OK; my wife or I ran the backup periodically. We just had to make sure the server was turned on. (Win 7 backup is in Win 10 too btw, but hidden.)

When ransomeware appeared I decided this was too risky. I put a password on the share, and told Win not to remember it or reconnect automatically. To run the backup we had to 'connect network drive', and type in a username and password. This worked - but not well. It often took several attempts to connect and I thought it possible that ransomeware would connect it anyway, that Win would actually store the password somewhere.

With Win 10 I got rid of these Windows shares, both backup and music, as being too vulnerable. For backup I changed to an unpluggable USB drive - much simpler and proof against malware. (Unless the malware sits in wait until it's plugged in...)

So if you want to use a network-connected backup drive and don't want to keep unplugging it, you could try a password. It might work better with an all-windows setup, for example between two Win PCs.

NAS-makers must have thought about ransomeware, I wonder what they do? I bet ransomware-makers have thought about NAS!

As for UPS I've never had one. I see that some NAS boxes can connect to UPS via usb to initiate orderly shutdown. It shouldn't matter if the NAS has RAID and a journalling file system, I would have thought, but I don't really know.

---

06 Apr 17 - 05:11 AM (#3849004)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

Dave, re your NFS question: I don't know specifics about any off the shelf NAS boxes but I wouldn't be surprised if a few use *nix as the underlying OS.

I'm just lousy at backing up and know I ought to improve one day... rsync would be my likely route. .

---

06 Apr 17 - 05:53 AM (#3849013)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

Yes, NAS boxes all run a customised version of Linux. But I assume they normally install software in Windows to handle file access. I expect it'll look like Dropbox's Windows software which handles cloud file access. It might use NFS, which isn't supported in Win 10 Pro, or SMB which is. Win 10 Enterprise, which you need to use NFS, costs $7/month, I think.

NAS boxes are easy to set up and use - to play music, store photos, etc. The question for me is - how do they make it easy to use while making it hard for ransomeware to access? And which of those two objectives will the vendor prioritize? Which will make it sell?

On Linux I used to use BackInTime - which is a UI for rsync. These days I just use rsync in a script; the options are legion but once you get it working it's fine, and super-fast. I wouldn't be surprised if NAS boxes use rsync underneath - in which case they need NFS.

---

06 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM (#3849017)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

Dave I may be thinking on the wrong lines here but samba is pretty stock Linux software for sharing with Windows.

---

06 Apr 17 - 06:37 AM (#3849024)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

Yes, I've used Samba (SMB file access) for years. I used it for Win XP then Win 7 backup - including the password system I described - and I could use it in Win 10 if I had to. But because of the risk of ransomeware - which can encrypt Windows shares - I don't want any permanent Windows shares. (Or not writable ones.)

---

06 Apr 17 - 07:36 PM (#3849160)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Bill D

Acme... there is a program to combat ransomware. I have had it for several months, and it seems to be in current development and had been updated a couple of times. I don't think *I* am in serious danger, and I'm not sure how I'd know if an attempt was made.
So far, nothing has happened either way..*shrug*

https://ransomfree.cybereason.com/

---

06 Apr 17 - 07:49 PM (#3849166)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Joe Offer

Jon sez: I'm just lousy at backing up and know I ought to improve one day

Gee, that's the story of my life, Jon. I try to ensure that clients do backups, but then don't do it myself.

-Joe-

---

06 Apr 17 - 08:33 PM (#3849172)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

Yep it's easier to preach to others Joe..

That said, sad as it may sound, I'm not sure that I have a lot that needs backing up. Some photos for sure but it at least feels a while since I've invested a lot of time in something which in my case could include (OK redundant but) folkinfo code or an Android->Cups printing program I still use. (which as are backed up backed up on DVDs somewhere..)

Probably ought to be more responsible for my parents usage.. I think I do a reasonable job in ensuring they have a pretty stable platform (which reminds me dad is in hospital at the moment and I need to sort his wifi on the laptop out tomorrow - it was PAT tested today ) but plans for backing up often get deferred....

---

07 Apr 17 - 08:50 AM (#3849253)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Vashta Nerada

Bold claims from a free site, Bill D. But it bears looking into.

---

06 May 17 - 10:44 AM (#3853535)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

I'm now considering the possibility of simply putting the external hard drive in a totally out-of-sight place but not on the router or switch. I had thought perhaps a long data wire, but the drive and computer require USB, not data plugs. I suspect a very long USB cable would have it's problems (akin to serial vs parallel for printers -
too long isn't a good idea - running it up through the wall, across the attic floor, and down into the hall closet where the router and second UPS lives). But I could simply run it through the wall into the next room and place this in an inconspicuous spot that is physically only about five feet from the computer. Power and USB can both go through a junction box in the wall that is adjacent to the junction box in the next room. And I'd be able to plug it in to the nearby UPS and unplug the USB so it would only be in use during incremental backup, then disconnected from the system.

---

06 May 17 - 02:15 PM (#3853562)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

But for the moment, I'm moving data off of one almost splitting-at-the-seams drive. A backup of stuff that I have in redundant places that doesn't need to be where it is now.

---

07 May 17 - 11:20 AM (#3853689)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

You're correct, some of those "fixes" can be pretty devastating. Can't live with them, can't live without them.

---

08 May 17 - 03:00 AM (#3853828)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Mr Red

A friend who is in the PC repair and set up business has a VPN located on a network drive, permanently connected to the internet. I assume it is on the same UPS as his modem.

He then uses an encrypted connection (VPN) to it to access his files, emails, and the internet via a browser on it, while away from home & maybe the same internally. He says it is far more secure than any other way to access on phone or tablet (via apps). Being a common interface he only has to remember one system.

My solution to critical files like databases for my various websites is to use the webspace I pay for (unlimited). If anyone wants to dig & access the data it is already there in a far more readable format. They are welcome to my back-end software. If the are clever enough to find it they will still struggle with my spaghetti code.

---

13 May 17 - 03:37 AM (#3854711)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

This WannaCrypt incident illustrates the advantage of disconnecting backup drives, and why I stopped using SMB (shared drives) for backups as I mentioned earlier.

Gory (very) technical details:
74 countries hit by NSA-powered WannaCrypt ransomware backdoor

(There's a patch there for anybody still running XP.)

---

13 May 17 - 04:31 AM (#3854719)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,CJB

A folkie friend and author had his main computer connected up to back up drives. Then he inadvertantly opened a 'financial statement' attached to an email. Seemed OK - he was expecting one from his publisher. But this carried a ransomware payload. Not only were his main files encrypted but ALSO all of his backups on the connected drives - these included scripts for his books and irreplaceable family photos. He lost the lot.

And dont forget that a few years ago soome idiot scammer sent a ransomeware virus around that had a bug in the code. This meant that encrypted files couldn't be decrypted at all. There's no honour amongst thieves.

---

13 May 17 - 05:44 AM (#3854730)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Mr Red

FWIW
1) I have 2 laptops and 2 tower PCs.
2) Only one is on the internet.
3) The back-up HDD is not permanently connected. Neither is the internet. They used to say any PC could be found in an hour. If connected!
4) Some browsers (and favoured apps) with associated passwords are portable versions on a second HDD, with copies on the back-up and also on a memory stick I can use on other machines.
5) favourites with hints to those passwords, email (etc) are in a local HTML file that is my browser's homepage.
6) And with 8 domains I can make a new e-mail address for any registration that is inconsequential or is untried. Simple redirects to my covert address (same on website forms' email addresses).
7) I have certain browsers for certain websites. eg Flash movies (BBC iPlayer etc) on one, another (sans Flash) for general purpose, Chrome for translated pages, & Goggle Earth. There even is a browser from my AV company which purports to be secure and it is picky with websites.
8) Most scam e-mails come in to those disposable e-mail addresses, makes it easier to spot.
9) all this doesn't guarantee protection but it makes it hard for them, and there are so many easier targets. But I stay alert, after all - if this is a game I intend to win. I have a lot to loose.
10) the hard work has paid-off over the last 17 years - so far.
11) I am more likely to loose/corrupt things with finger trouble &/or brain fade. Now why the hell didn't I copy this text to clipboard before the BT (notso) HotSpot disconnected itself?

---

13 May 17 - 11:35 AM (#3854781)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

The article Why Windows must die. For the third time answers a lot of questions about operating systems and security.

I have a local file that is my browsers' homepage also, though I got tired of moving it around to different machines after every tweak, so I host it now via the small amount of space web hosting space my IP made available (I'm grandfathered in, new customers don't get this space). FileZilla quick connect lets me upload my updates easily.

This week was certainly convincing as far as keeping the backup drive disconnected when the backup isn't being updated. I also have different browsers used for different tasks, and I will reconsider using the annoying new Microsoft Edge. Since I have my own homepage as home in that browser, all I needed to do was add a conspicuous link to Google (since Microsoft will only allow Bing to be the default search on that browser).

---

13 May 17 - 01:30 PM (#3854803)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

First test of the new 8TB external drive for backup. It'll take a while because I don't have any USB 3 ports and I have tons of material. I'm not backing up the old incremental backups - they'll stay in place for now, but I'll remove a couple of the older ones if this works as planned. Redundancy is always helpful and memory is cheap. I'll have to remember to plug this new drive in on the appropriate day of the week so incremental backups can take place.

The new drive is stashed behind a stack of VHS players for converting tapes to digital. Those would probably be left behind by a burglar in a hurry, and I have a recent backup on a different external drive that I will keep in another room.

Previous backups have taken forever, possibly because of how I set them up. This time I let Windows pick all of my libraries (I've added to the typical four that Windows comes with) and not the libraries plus checking ever box for each disk. I suspect that parked duplicated data in the backup.

I also should turn off my computer more often instead of just setting it to sleep.

---

13 May 17 - 05:24 PM (#3854866)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

It might be worth getting an expansion card with a USB3 port - if it's a desktop computer. PCI USB3 cards are quite cheap.

---

13 May 17 - 06:23 PM (#3854872)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

The last thing I put into this very crowded box was a SSD to use as the C: drive. Speeded it up considerably! I literally shoved it in between the cables and used a twist tie to stabilize it before I closed the cover. I'd probably have to swap out something I don't use any more, or find a card configured to double up functions.

---

13 May 17 - 11:10 PM (#3854899)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

About nine hours later and the backup is at 25%. It's all of those photos, mostly.

---

14 May 17 - 02:42 AM (#3854905)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

You could get a bigger case - one from a junkshop perhaps. I'm still using this - the case is probably 20 years old and the motherboard two sizes smaller, maybe 10 years old, but it fitted the fixing points and card slots. Room for several drives, and being airy it runs quite cool.

The tricky bit is connecting the case switches - hence the odd wires visible in the picture.

---

14 May 17 - 04:17 AM (#3854918)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Mr Red

A word of caution
all forms of storage - floppies (remember them) HDD, SSD, memory sticks have an MTBF - someone (of this parish) who used external HDDs found out of 10 identical rotating disc HDDs, 2 had failed in some way in 5 years. & they were being used as long term storage not regularly.

I myself had to reload Firefox recently because of what I would assume was a soft error on a rotating HDD. Who knows why, vibration, gamma hits, or even wear.

SSDs are a system on their own. The internal microprocessor is monitoring the threshold of cells and when it gets close to failure swaps out a whole block and calls up reserve memory in its place. Maybe your better memory sticks do it. But as the prime HDD in your system it would get a lot of use - which affects those thresholds.

Nuttin ain't purfect!

---

14 May 17 - 11:33 PM (#3855136)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

Interesting that this evening when I spoke to my son he was in the middle of moving his existing computer contents into a larger case (with a new motherboard and CPU). It's a small world.

---

15 May 17 - 06:27 AM (#3855186)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Mr Red

FWIW - apparently
The current virus had a back-door for the instigator to release the block. The release was as simple as having a domain that existed. It didn't.
The investigator who found this bought the domain and it worked! he said he was a grown man jumping and leaping like a child as soon as he found it had succeeded.

I have not seen much about the mop-up situation - particularly in the UK Health Service, nor how devastating (after Sunday).

---

19 May 17 - 06:45 PM (#3855960)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

A bit OT but I put added a 3TB drive to my "general purpose server/ mythtv frontend" in the living the other day. Main reason is to store pictures from IP cams. It may be a bit ott but dad thinks that 9 token coins disappeared from his collection over the 60 days he was in hospital and there are quite a few people (eg. a carer for an hr each day) that can be around the house these days. I'm not going to back up but hope to be able to look back at recordings should another "disappearance" be suspected.

I'm running the multi platform xeoma btw and am pretty pleased with it. My more natural choice would have been ZoneMinder but I struggled with it's resource usage (seems to be a common problem and one Iv'e also seen levelled at the Windows only Blue Iris - with ZoneMinder, I believe it's often sortable if you have the time and patience) in a past play and have for this opted for a pay for solution for the current 4 cameras.

---

20 May 17 - 01:55 AM (#3855999)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

It's possible to purchase a multi-camera security system with a several Tb hard drive supporting them for a few hundred dollars. I've considered it myself. My next door neighbor put in a fake camera over her front door (it has a blinking red light and looks quite real). What's to say that her fake camera, in view but out of reach of thieves, is going to be less effective than catching images with multiple cameras attached around the outside of the house?

---

20 May 17 - 02:32 AM (#3856003)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

I'd guess as a deterrent, a realistic fake might be as effective...

One of our 4 cameras is outside but I'm not sure if it would be that readily spotted by someone calling at the house (L shaped bungalow). I opted for a more complete view of the front of the property than I'd get from the porch door area. That and I guess ease of fitting - a switch with POE does for the cabling to that one and the one in the living room. (The other 2 are 12v powered and one of them using wi-fi).

---

20 May 17 - 03:17 AM (#3856008)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Mr Red

the way UK law works, you have to have camera visible and not pointing at other peoples' premises. Eg windows.

Just thought but how legal is it to have a fake camera visible and a covert camera covering a similar vista?
It would be one up on the criminal who might try to inhibit a camera, though if they think it is worth their while they are not that bothered with being filmed.

How robust is WiFi? I have seen a case on TV where cars were locked wirelessly but the crims were firing high power to block the transmission. Owners assumed the lock had worked and in the wee small hours the car is open to take whatever.

---

20 May 17 - 04:01 AM (#3856021)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

I wasn't aware of that Mr Red but from what you say, I believe I do comply with UK (where I live) law. It's just you would have to look above the sliding doors that open to the living room rather than the porch to the only generally used entrance. You can see it from the entrance gate but if your eyes were fixed on walking to the porch you might miss it.

---

12 Jul 17 - 08:10 AM (#3865720)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

Oh well it happened yesterday... As the PC, which is connected to a UPS, appears to have shut down correctly, I guess it's just co-incidence but the hdd with our pictures, etc. started acting up after a power cut yesterday. According to fsck, the disk is clean but it looks like the controller is on the way out - lots of lock ups and resets.

Anyway, I moved the disk to a USB caddy and for some reason found it works better (fewer resets, etc.) at USB 2 speeds (the device is USB 3). It took time but I've managed to back the photos and a handful of documents I need up so I guess I've been lucky.

I should have new hdd tomorrow and will think about the other bits the old hdd holds then. A number of CDs are in ogg format which isn't compatible with some devices here, stuff recorded from tv will come round again and some will never be watched, etc. I might be better off starting from scratch with some things.

---

12 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM (#3865723)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: GUEST,Jon

Of course, I suppose the reorganise portion of "start from scratch" could be applied to my pictures too. There are a lot of "duplicates" (make more than one attempt at a shot) and quite a few where, when I look back, I can't work out why I took them or what they were about. Still there is stuff I want to keep (altough (to me) surprisingly few, eg. this one where I still think that's exactly what I wanted to capture. I doubt it but maybe the mishap will trigger a bit of a clear out later in the year...)

---

02 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM (#3874829)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

I'm bringing this back up for the Win 10 context, but it is a different issue. I was looking at the Task Manager this morning when I awoke my computer, curious about the processing noises arising from the tower beside my desk. It turns out that Microsoft Compatibility Telemetry was hard at work.

I found a Windows Insider article that I must presume was largely translated at some point because verbs go out the window as you read further down the piece, but it discusses the collection of personal information that I tried to turn off when I initially set up Win10. Has anyone else here looked into this? I have Win10 Pro, not an enterprise version (that is allowed to turn off the telemetry). Apparently there are some things you can do, but the article is difficult to understand, as you will see if you try to read very far through this thing. From the top, a summary:

If you are new to Windows 10, then you don't know about Microsoft compatibility telemetry. This is a complete guide on How to disable Telemetry and Data Collection in Windows 10. Microsoft has updated Windows 10 with the Comment range of securities and new features. New Windows 10 update comes with the telemetry feature enabled by default that collects all sorts of user activity and sends it to Microsoft. If you are looking for what is Microsoft compatibility telemetry, then this article will assist you.
Microsoft recommends enabling Microsoft compatibility telemetry Windows 10 feature so that they can track all the crash report and other information to improve the user experience. Sometimes due to this dmwappushsvc service, users are facing compatibility telemetry windows 10 high disk usage problems. Using telemetry built into Windows 10, Microsoft trying to improve the features and overall experience of the operating system with the tracking data from compattelrunner.exe Microsoft compatibility telemetry.

---

02 Sep 17 - 01:10 PM (#3874859)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stanron

I was reading through this thread and feeling rather smug about having ditched Windows for Linux several years ago when I realised I hadn't backed up my files for a long time. I back up to an external USB drive which only gets plugged in for this purpose. Files I make on the computer are all saved to one compartmentalised folder. Backup means copying this folder to the USB disk. 16.1 gig, originally estimated at taking 3 hours 23 minutes. Ten minutes later estimated as 3 hours and 30 minutes and now an hour later estimated at 3 hours and two minutes. I've got maybe 100 photos, some .wav files and a few videos. I'm doing it with USB 2, and I think I might have one USB 3 socket on th back of the case. I'll check before doing it again.

---

02 Sep 17 - 02:19 PM (#3874873)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

Stanron wrote: Backup means copying this folder to the USB disk.

Use rsync. Assuming most of the files don't change it'll take minutes not hours. Since this a Win 10 thread, PM me if you want some example commands.

---

02 Sep 17 - 03:23 PM (#3874882)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stanron

I've just checked the Software Manager and I've got rsync installed. I assume it runs in the Terminal. I've found some commands on line but any suggestions from you would be welcome. Only 50 minutes to go.

---

03 Sep 17 - 03:07 AM (#3874922)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: DaveRo

I only fire up my Windows 10 occasionally to test stuff, and have no great interest in its telemetry, but here's my 2 cents' worth.

All serious software needs feedback from real installations to identify and diagnose problems and find out how real people use it. Android certainly does - including the opensource version - and I'm sure iOS does. Firefox does: there is a team collecting and analysing crash date (recently the rollout of v55 was stopped when a spike of crashes were seen) and features are occasionally 'retired' when it's found that so few people use them it's not worth the cost of maintaining them.

The problem is that telemetry - as it's fairly recently become known - is often misrepresented - 'phoning home', 'spying', etc, and the majority of web articles are predicated on the assumption that you want to turn it off. Given that attitude by commentators I have some sympathy with Microsoft - who need this data - making it difficult. There's an analogy somewhere here with vaccination - if a few people disable it it doesn't matter, but if a lot of people do ...

MS need to be more open and positive about what they collect and why. Maybe they're doing this:
Microsoft opens up on Windows telemetry, tells us most of what data it collects
And to stop using phrases like 'improving the user experience'!

So my view is, by all means turn things like this off - I do - but it's not as intrusive and sinister as most web commentators want you to think.

The next major update to Windows 10 is in October, BTW.

---

03 Sep 17 - 10:45 AM (#3874969)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup - Win10, UPS, external HDD
From: Stilly River Sage

Thanks - that is helpful.

---

20 Oct 23 - 11:01 AM (#4184098)
Subject: Tech: Computer backup Win10/11 external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

I'm tagging on this existing thread to ask a question for a friend who recently took his external data drive that he'd used with an ancient Win10 system and started using it with a new Dell Win11 system. I was there to set up the new computer and told him he should move that data into the new one ASAP now that he has an extra drive. On the old computer he kept it on the external drive for the extra space and so he wouldn't have programs and data on the C: drive. Now he has a D: HDD with a SSD C: drive.

It seems that the new computer has stopped recognizing the external drive. And it seems increasingly likely that the external drive may have failed. Several of us discussed this privately in a group thread on Facebook - mapping to the old drive, etc. but in this plug and play world, his drive should be visible.

SO - if we assume at this point that the external drive has failed (a regular Seagate drive, not a bare drive inserted into a drive box), how do get the data out of the drive? I see ads periodically for a device to attach to drives to get their data - do those work? And will we have to disassemble the external drive case to attach a device like that? A local computer business is suggesting they would charge him $2000 to transfer his data. I think we can do better.

I am considering first having him bring the drive over here and attaching it to my old Win10 computer that is no longer online; if I can see the contents I'll transfer them to something else that he can take home and use to move data into the new computer. I give that less than a 50/50 chance of working, but it's worth a try.

Thoughts?

---

20 Oct 23 - 11:01 AM (#4188043)
Subject: Tech: Computer backup Win10/11 external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

I'm tagging on this existing thread to ask a question for a friend who recently took his external data drive that he'd used with an ancient Win10 system and started using it with a new Dell Win11 system. I was there to set up the new computer and told him he should move that data into the new one ASAP now that he has an extra drive. On the old computer he kept it on the external drive for the extra space and so he wouldn't have programs and data on the C: drive. Now he has a D: HDD with a SSD C: drive.

It seems that the new computer has stopped recognizing the external drive. And it seems increasingly likely that the external drive may have failed. Several of us discussed this privately in a group thread on Facebook - mapping to the old drive, etc. but in this plug and play world, his drive should be visible.

SO - if we assume at this point that the external drive has failed (a regular Seagate drive, not a bare drive inserted into a drive box), how do get the data out of the drive? I see ads periodically for a device to attach to drives to get their data - do those work? And will we have to disassemble the external drive case to attach a device like that? A local computer business is suggesting they would charge him $2000 to transfer his data. I think we can do better.

I am considering first having him bring the drive over here and attaching it to my old Win10 computer that is no longer online; if I can see the contents I'll transfer them to something else that he can take home and use to move data into the new computer. I give that less than a 50/50 chance of working, but it's worth a try.

Thoughts?

---

20 Oct 23 - 01:09 PM (#4188039)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

Did it work formerly with the very same computer and OS that now fails to recognize it? If not, it may be an issue of the OS and the file system support.
Trying with a different computer is certainly worth the effort.
I bought an adapter ages ago for about $/€/£40 that connects "raw" HDs of various interfaces to USB; it works, if the HD is intact. If the fault is with the USB adapter in the drive case (– very rare!), this is the remedy. You can ask around if someone in your vicinity owns such a device; the main use case is to save data from old computers.

---

20 Oct 23 - 01:09 PM (#4184100)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

Did it work formerly with the very same computer and OS that now fails to recognize it? If not, it may be an issue of the OS and the file system support.
Trying with a different computer is certainly worth the effort.
I bought an adapter ages ago for about $/€/£40 that connects "raw" HDs of various interfaces to USB; it works, if the HD is intact. If the fault is with the USB adapter in the drive case (– very rare!), this is the remedy. You can ask around if someone in your vicinity owns such a device; the main use case is to save data from old computers.

---

20 Oct 23 - 01:13 PM (#4184103)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

Thank you! It worked for several weeks on the new Win11 OS. File system shouldn't be an issue.

Was your adapter a free standing device, or was it a box to plug the guts of the old hard drive into?

---

20 Oct 23 - 01:13 PM (#4188044)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

Thank you! It worked for several weeks on the new Win11 OS. File system shouldn't be an issue.

Was your adapter a free standing device, or was it a box to plug the guts of the old hard drive into?

---

20 Oct 23 - 01:16 PM (#4188049)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo

I assume this drive is USB. If it doesn't work with your box there's little to lose by opening it up. Inside there's probably a 2½" HDD. I have a couple of those USB to SATA adapters - about $5-10: they work. Buy a USB 3.n where n is as high as possible, for future compatibility. If the drive is bigger you'll have to plug it in to a SATA socket on the mobo and a power supply.

If the drive has failed that's probably the end of it.

---

20 Oct 23 - 01:16 PM (#4184104)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo

I assume this drive is USB. If it doesn't work with your box there's little to lose by opening it up. Inside there's probably a 2½" HDD. I have a couple of those USB to SATA adapters - about $5-10: they work. Buy a USB 3.n where n is as high as possible, for future compatibility. If the drive is bigger you'll have to plug it in to a SATA socket on the mobo and a power supply.

If the drive has failed that's probably the end of it.

---

20 Oct 23 - 02:18 PM (#4184109)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

An adapter is an adapter. USB plug at one end, and SATA etc. on the other one to plug into the "raw" disk. As Dave writes, you have to take the disk out of its "case" – which essentially is another such adapter or converter that might be the cause of the problem.

The idea of trying with another computer is not to be dismissed entirely; miracles did happen in the past.

---

20 Oct 23 - 02:18 PM (#4188040)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

An adapter is an adapter. USB plug at one end, and SATA etc. on the other one to plug into the "raw" disk. As Dave writes, you have to take the disk out of its "case" – which essentially is another such adapter or converter that might be the cause of the problem.

The idea of trying with another computer is not to be dismissed entirely; miracles did happen in the past.

---

20 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM (#4188045)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

I'll look into what other device the drive inside the case can be dropped into - but as you say, we'll try a different computer first. There's no going back to using that device as a drive after this, we just want the data before it is recycled as e-waste.

---

20 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM (#4184111)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

I'll look into what other device the drive inside the case can be dropped into - but as you say, we'll try a different computer first. There's no going back to using that device as a drive after this, we just want the data before it is recycled as e-waste.

---

20 Oct 23 - 08:27 PM (#4184145)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stanron

I've got maybe ten old disk drives from long dead computers. I can access them using USB adapters. 2.5" drives don't need a power supply but 3.5" drives do. I've got both kinds somewhere but it's ages since I used them. Of course if the drive itself is dead the adapter is useless.

---

20 Oct 23 - 08:27 PM (#4188048)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stanron

I've got maybe ten old disk drives from long dead computers. I can access them using USB adapters. 2.5" drives don't need a power supply but 3.5" drives do. I've got both kinds somewhere but it's ages since I used them. Of course if the drive itself is dead the adapter is useless.

---

21 Oct 23 - 03:05 AM (#4188050)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo

Even if it's a 2½" drive you don't of course need a a USB-SATA adapter if you're prepared to poke about inside your computer and find a power plug and you have a spare SATA socket - or borrow these from another drive.

One thing I discovered recently when I updated my RaspberryPi (it's a music player) is that USB adapters usually cannot pass the full range of SATA commands to the drive. I remember reading that SMART commands may not work. So diagnostic software can discover more about a directly-connected drive than a USB-connected one.

OTOH I wouldn't just connect up a random drive inside a Windows machine. What I do is fire up a gparted live disk. If that can see the disk, but says it has no partition table (maybe it's corrupt) then an expert might be able to recover the data.

---

21 Oct 23 - 03:05 AM (#4184152)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo

Even if it's a 2½" drive you don't of course need a a USB-SATA adapter if you're prepared to poke about inside your computer and find a power plug and you have a spare SATA socket - or borrow these from another drive.

One thing I discovered recently when I updated my RaspberryPi (it's a music player) is that USB adapters usually cannot pass the full range of SATA commands to the drive. I remember reading that SMART commands may not work. So diagnostic software can discover more about a directly-connected drive than a USB-connected one.

OTOH I wouldn't just connect up a random drive inside a Windows machine. What I do is fire up a gparted live disk. If that can see the disk, but says it has no partition table (maybe it's corrupt) then an expert might be able to recover the data.

---

21 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM (#4184185)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

As for "a spare SATA socket", I vaguely remember using that ages ago, with a lot of fuss about "master and slave" – that was in an era when "PC" was short for "personal computer". I think I had to replug my boot disk to the other socket of a flimsy "bus", and make sure all the 100 needles or so were pushed tightly and none was bent. Best ask an expert in case you consider it.

---

21 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM (#4188041)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

As for "a spare SATA socket", I vaguely remember using that ages ago, with a lot of fuss about "master and slave" – that was in an era when "PC" was short for "personal computer". I think I had to replug my boot disk to the other socket of a flimsy "bus", and make sure all the 100 needles or so were pushed tightly and none was bent. Best ask an expert in case you consider it.

---

21 Oct 23 - 10:57 AM (#4188042)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

Perhaps I should explain the PC topic: some time ago, some people complained that the notions of "master" and "slave", applied to devices, were racist, so that other names are now used.

A problem with racism is that those who diagnose it in others often reveal their own latent racism ex negativo.

---

21 Oct 23 - 10:57 AM (#4184187)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka

Perhaps I should explain the PC topic: some time ago, some people complained that the notions of "master" and "slave", applied to devices, were racist, so that other names are now used.

A problem with racism is that those who diagnose it in others often reveal their own latent racism ex negativo.

---

21 Oct 23 - 11:09 AM (#4184189)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

Back in the early oughts I had external drives in drive enclosures and have had one or two of those (or other devices) that used SATA or eSATA cables to plug to the motherboard. I still have cables somewhere.

That whole "master and slave" terminology was in other technology as well. Did anyone else drive a standard transmission car or truck with a master and a slave cylinder for the transmission fluid? It was an appalling set of terms even back then.

---

21 Oct 23 - 11:09 AM (#4188046)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

Back in the early oughts I had external drives in drive enclosures and have had one or two of those (or other devices) that used SATA or eSATA cables to plug to the motherboard. I still have cables somewhere.

That whole "master and slave" terminology was in other technology as well. Did anyone else drive a standard transmission car or truck with a master and a slave cylinder for the transmission fluid? It was an appalling set of terms even back then.

---

21 Oct 23 - 11:47 AM (#4188051)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo

I ought to warn that the connectors to a SATA drive are pretty flimsy. It's not so bad if you're using a USB adapter because it's one wide plug, covering both power (7 connectors) and data (15). SATA drive connectors

But the power plug particularly is very easy to break when it's on a too-short cable from the PSU and you can't see what you're doing. I've broken one and it was hard to get it to maintain contact once the plastic bit was missing.

The mobo end is fairly robust. I've seen two types - one just pushes in and the other has a squeeze-lock mechanism.

My 2006 spare desktop recently failed, so I no longer have any of the old IDE ribbon cable drives. They could be difficult to plug together, let alone the master/slave/jumpers malarky, but at least they stayed plugged!

---

21 Oct 23 - 11:47 AM (#4184194)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo

I ought to warn that the connectors to a SATA drive are pretty flimsy. It's not so bad if you're using a USB adapter because it's one wide plug, covering both power (7 connectors) and data (15). SATA drive connectors

But the power plug particularly is very easy to break when it's on a too-short cable from the PSU and you can't see what you're doing. I've broken one and it was hard to get it to maintain contact once the plastic bit was missing.

The mobo end is fairly robust. I've seen two types - one just pushes in and the other has a squeeze-lock mechanism.

My 2006 spare desktop recently failed, so I no longer have any of the old IDE ribbon cable drives. They could be difficult to plug together, let alone the master/slave/jumpers malarky, but at least they stayed plugged!

---

21 Oct 23 - 01:49 PM (#4184201)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

The only reason for setting up the SATA etc system would be transfer the data and then be done with it. I agree - they weren't very stable as far as being bumped, even running through one of the slots on the back of the computer.

The old ribbon cables - I have struggled with those over the years also, but once in place there's usually no problem.

---

21 Oct 23 - 01:49 PM (#4188047)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage

The only reason for setting up the SATA etc system would be transfer the data and then be done with it. I agree - they weren't very stable as far as being bumped, even running through one of the slots on the back of the computer.

The old ribbon cables - I have struggled with those over the years also, but once in place there's usually no problem.

---

27 Oct 23 - 03:32 PM (#4184648)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: robomatic

SRS' advice about getting the data off a suspect storage device ASAP is spot on.

I have quite a few HDs of various sizes and provenances. I was going to post a HD question regarding 'shingle' technology but I'm holding off in order to do something less useful. Give advice.

I usually purchase new drives in pairs and then plug 'em in and let 'em heat up and use them for strictly temporary stuff. Once they've been in use for a couple of weeks I may load them down with stuff I care about.

In one case with some Seagate portables they worked for a few years and then they quit relatively close in time in the same way. This meant to me that the same thing went wrong inside both of them, probably component wise. I could hear the disks spin up, but the computer would not recognize them.

With me, electrical and electronic items are very 'fungible' so if you have two of the same thing, what you do to one if repeated will do the same thing to the other. In this case, both drives were the same age, used for the same thing, treated well and stored the same way.

That's where the situation has stopped. I thought of composing a nice letter to Seagate, because I'm fairly certain it's a known failure to them or somebody like them. But although they may repond out of pride it's clearly beyond warranty.

My advice is not much better: Search the internet for your specific problem with your specific HD.

Yeah, you read this far for not much. More later!

---

27 Oct 23 - 03:32 PM (#4191537)
Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: robomatic

SRS' advice about getting the data off a suspect storage device ASAP is spot on.

I have quite a few HDs of various sizes and provenances. I was going to post a HD question regarding 'shingle' technology but I'm holding off in order to do something less useful. Give advice.

I usually purchase new drives in pairs and then plug 'em in and let 'em heat up and use them for strictly temporary stuff. Once they've been in use for a couple of weeks I may load them down with stuff I care about.

In one case with some Seagate portables they worked for a few years and then they quit relatively close in time in the same way. This meant to me that the same thing went wrong inside both of them, probably component wise. I could hear the disks spin up, but the computer would not recognize them.

With me, electrical and electronic items are very 'fungible' so if you have two of the same thing, what you do to one if repeated will do the same thing to the other. In this case, both drives were the same age, used for the same thing, treated well and stored the same way.

That's where the situation has stopped. I thought of composing a nice letter to Seagate, because I'm fairly certain it's a known failure to them or somebody like them. But although they may repond out of pride it's clearly beyond warranty.

My advice is not much better: Search the internet for your specific problem with your specific HD.

Yeah, you read this far for not much. More later!

---