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BS: UK General Election

18 Apr 17 - 07:12 AM (#3850977)
Subject: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

Here we go again. Now we have six weeks of campaigning before we have another general election, which is going to centre around Brexit. This is a huge vote and massively important for the UK and beyond.

Please keep discussion civil.

18 Apr 17 - 07:30 AM (#3850980)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

I was thinking will they stop campaigning for the forthoming local elections now? However to tell you the truth there is no local campaigining going on here in Scotland anyway. Certainly not from the Tories. The only leaflets I've got through from them mention no local issues and no local candidates. Only the constitution!

18 Apr 17 - 08:47 AM (#3850994)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Quite interesting.
At least the campaigning will be very limited in timescale.

18 Apr 17 - 08:56 AM (#3850997)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

7 weeks and 2 days.................. thankfully I will be away for most of it.

18 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM (#3850998)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Live bbc news lunch time.... was that May's resignation speech...???

18 Apr 17 - 09:23 AM (#3851000)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

I've nothing against lengthy campaigns - there's more chance the mask will slip and the lies be revealed.

I always try to work out some way in which, win or lose, there's some positive outcome. A Labour victory seems a remote hope, but it's possible to envisage that the focus of an election might stop the squabbling and backstabbing in the Labour camp, and they get together and pull off a 1945 victory, which nobody then believed possible.

A Tory victory, and a big Tory victory, is harder to see in a positive way - but it could at least increase the chances that when the Scots have another vote on independence they will go for it. I think that once it sinks in that the Conservatives have brought about the end of the United Kingdom and "Great Britain" that might bring about a wide revulsion against them on the part of the English voters.

18 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM (#3851003)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

There was a brilliant article in the Irish Times last week describing the Brexit negotiations as a "an exercise in damage limitation".
I wonder if this is part of it
Jim Carroll

18 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM (#3851010)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

i used to love elections when i was a kid. we got a day off school. in fact we were threatened with violence if we came to school by mistake on that day.

since then, i haven't enjoyed them much.

18 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM (#3851014)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

As she has an overall majority, the only conceivable reason for this abject U-turn is that she's running scared of her hard-right backbenchers and is hoping for a bigger majority that will leave her untrammelled. As Labour were doomed to lose the 2020 election in any case, the upside is that she may be in power until 2022 only, not until 2025. Organise!

18 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM (#3851015)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)

Labour have lost my vote by not opposing article 50. I will be voting Lib Dem, if I thought it didn't matter I would vote for Left Unity. But it does, and the Lib Dems are the only English party with a coherent European policy.

18 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM (#3851021)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

until the tories offer them a deal.
10 quid, a giant bag of crisps and Tim Farron as Minister for Bananas...

18 Apr 17 - 12:25 PM (#3851036)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Mr Red

As I remember, when UK referenda were merely mooted, it was said that they made France ungovernable. Not quite here (yet) but the pattern is remarkably reminiscent.
Maybe PM TM is banking on getting in quick, before JC can be shown to be Michael Foot Mk2 and TM knows we are heading for serious heartache over trade, and she needs 5 more years to prove herself & the economy.

Time will tell, let us hope it doesn't shout!

18 Apr 17 - 01:08 PM (#3851039)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

In this area last time, Conservatives won by a few thousand over Labour, then roughly one third of those totals for UKIP and one tenth as many voted Green, then Lib Dem.

So if Labour were to take any significant numbers of seats, this would be one. They are unlikely to, and there isnt a viable tactical option. Oh joy.

18 Apr 17 - 01:20 PM (#3851041)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

I just hope that brexit fails and we stay in the EU!!

18 Apr 17 - 01:22 PM (#3851042)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Gutcher

Strange, here was me thinking we were now on a five year fixed term, with only a defeat for the sitting government allowing any deviation from that legislation.

18 Apr 17 - 01:32 PM (#3851043)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

The election can only proceed if enough MPs agree; it os not a simple majority like most votes. I did wonder if the SNP would try to lever another concession as payment for their support but i think they have calculated the risk is too great as they still cpuld no stop it on their own.

18 Apr 17 - 03:01 PM (#3851054)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

The forthcoming General Election will sort out Tory Brexit rebels and give TM a mandate her opponents accuse her of not having at the moment.

JC and Labour will be shown to be the shambles they undoubtedly are and oddly enough the SNP North of the border will be in for a tougher ride than they think - the SNP might want to squander another £13 million Scotland doesn't have on Indy2 - the bulk of the Scottish electorate want no part of it. As for "Scottish issues" the SNP are going to have to start actually governing Scotland in stead of just sitting back and blaming Westminster s every Scottish Parliament has done since 1998.

18 Apr 17 - 03:11 PM (#3851059)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

I think that may turn out to be a pretty fair summation of whats afoot. But who knows...I've stopped predicting since the referendum. Lots can happen. i don't think its worth arguing about, because its SO unknown.

No one really KNOWS whats going to happen.

18 Apr 17 - 03:44 PM (#3851064)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Absolutely correct, Teribus! She's called this election, in spite of promising not to, and in spite of the fact that she has an overall majority, in order to get a bigger majority so as to sideline her own scumbag rebels. This is not in the country's best interests, it's an abuse, and let's hope that that point is forcefully put across by all the opposition parties so that the electorate see that they are being used. She's weak, she acts with expedience instead of principle and she's a liability to this country.

18 Apr 17 - 05:02 PM (#3851069)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

Another broken promise. Are we surprised? Remember David Cameron promised that even if he lost the referendum he would stay on and carry out its verdict? Everyone know what a Liberal pledge is worth. (Remember, voting for tuition fees to go sky high wasn't just a manifesto pledge, only operative if they won a majority, it was an individual solemn promise by Liberal candidates to vote against any such measure.)

Just about the only person in front bench politics whose word is actually worth anything is Jeremy Corbyn, and he gets crucified and ridiculed for it, because that's not how we play politics in this country. Who knows, there might be more people out there than you'd think who are fed up enough with liars they might actually choose to vote for the only honest man in the game?

18 Apr 17 - 05:10 PM (#3851070)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

my bet is that time she did the trick with the Mars bar when she was having an affair with Michael Gove could lead to her undoing, and the secret liaision with Fred West might count against her with some. otherwise, she's bulletproof.

18 Apr 17 - 05:37 PM (#3851076)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

But that's politics innit!!! It has happened before and it will happen again. Take Harold Wilson for instance in 1966, who won an increased majority in a snap election, but then take bugger Brown who failed to call a snap election in 2007!

18 Apr 17 - 05:51 PM (#3851081)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

The SNP will probably privately be quite happy to go to the polls. Even if unionist parties did win several more seats - which is not a given - it is still likely to be an a ringing endorsement for the SNP with them winning the vast bulk of the seats. The idea that the bulk of Scots don't want another vote doesn't hold up. Most polls have showed it as about 50/50 as to whether there should be another vote or not.

18 Apr 17 - 05:54 PM (#3851082)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

I think that Mrs May is the real deal, she has gravitas and a good political mind.
I said a couple of years a go that she would be the next leader of the Conservative Party.

The most important thing for me at the moment (even more important than Scottish Independence), is extricating this country from the undemocratic shambles that is the EU. Immigration control was the main driver for Brexit and there is no point in remoaners whining about the Free Market etc as Without Free Movement of Labour these things are impossible to obtain.
The Remoaners inside and outside parliament are simply trying to sabotage the referendum result. Mrs May thinks that the only way to shut them up is to obtain a large mandate from the electorate. There are risks involved, risks she did not have to take, she could have pressed on and followed through on the aftermath of winning the section 50 vote.......but I think there may be some skulduggery going on amongst the remoamers and their Blairite fellow travellers in the House of Lords which Mrs May is attempting to head off.

Anyway, this Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa and the Conservative Party for the first time in his life.

18 Apr 17 - 05:58 PM (#3851084)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

One thing's sure. Seven weeks is a long time in politics. And you can't trust polls. That's two things, but I never was much good at maths.

Naturally, no opposition party can say that they don't want an election. They don't though.

18 Apr 17 - 06:26 PM (#3851090)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

In her Downing Street address, May blamed Labour, the LibDems, the SNP and the House of Lords for forcing her hand in calling this election. All completely dishonest bullshit. With regard to the three parties, she has an overall majority and they can't prevail against her. With regard to the Lords there is the Parliament Act, and, ultimately, they can't prevail against her either. Her only fear is her own party. A few hard-right backbench rebels can call the shots and she knows it. A healthier majority will sideline them. That's what this is all about. It's not about brexit and it's not about the mainstream issues that should be to the fore when we talk about how the country should be run, which is what a general election should be all about. She's calling an election in order to try to sort out her own party issues, just as Teribus has correctly suggested. That is just wrong. It's a waste of time, a waste of our money and it's bloody undemocratic. The upside is that it means she'll probably be in power only until 2022, not 2025.

18 Apr 17 - 06:29 PM (#3851091)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron

Steve Shaw wrote: The upside is that it means she'll probably be in power only until 2022, not 2025.
Dream on.

18 Apr 17 - 07:28 PM (#3851105)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

You do surprise me aken...

But I rather doubt that many Scots will be doing that. And in a few years when no one is going to be using the term "Great Britain" as if if was the name of a country rather than an island (which hasn't been the case since 1801), and you're back in the EU, I hope you'll have changed your mind about such things.

18 Apr 17 - 07:48 PM (#3851107)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm not a betting man.. never been in a bookies in my entire life..

but now an election is being called,
who's more likely to get stabbed in the back first by their own party..

May or Corbyn.....????

18 Apr 17 - 08:03 PM (#3851110)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Stanron, as you're a hard-right Tory I'd expect that hubris from you. My view is that Labour would have lost a 2020 election, and that would have put this dissembling bugger into power until 2025. As it is, she'll have to contest an election in 2022, just a couple of years after the brexit disaster has manifested itself to the electorate. That's when she'll hit well-deserved oblivion. Only a prediction, of course. And a kind one. Some would say I've been far too generous in allowing her that long. She is very weak and vacillating and she's in the pocket of her own hard right. She's trying to fix that with this election. It won't work. It never does for Tories. Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory.

18 Apr 17 - 08:33 PM (#3851114)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron

Steve Shaw wrote: Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory.
One could reply with;

Spoken like a typically abusive, dissembling, dishonest, self-deceiving lefty.

But, of course, I'm too polite.

18 Apr 17 - 08:46 PM (#3851118)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

No you're not and never have been. You're a sour, rude fellow of the right. Still, it's all just predictions at this stage. Nighty night. Don't let those Monday-Clubber mates of yours bite.

19 Apr 17 - 02:42 AM (#3851136)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Kampervan

I don't care how 'wounded' JC is, having seen at first hand what TM is doing to the health service, to education and to the disabled, there is no way that I could ever vote for the Tories. Just because JC isn't perfect is no reason to vote for the vicious, divisive policies of the Tories.

19 Apr 17 - 03:18 AM (#3851143)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

"You're a sour, rude fellow of the right"

"Spoken like a typically abusive, dissembling, dishonest, self-deceiving lefty."

"Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory."

Pack it in. Please.

19 Apr 17 - 03:28 AM (#3851145)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Circumstances alter cases Mr McGrath, I change my mind quite often, finding pragmatism can be helpful in viewing the political world.

19 Apr 17 - 03:42 AM (#3851148)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)

Ake, you are not and never have been a socialist. As far back in time as you can read them on this forum, your comments have always has a far right slant. Now you may be a trade unionist. But the unions do not always have a left perspective, think of the US teamsters. Think of the attitudes of the unions in the times of Mosley and Powell. You are no more a socialist that the trade unionists who marched with Mosley.

19 Apr 17 - 03:46 AM (#3851150)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

i agree. don't lets get into bitter abuse of each other.

Jeremy Corbyn isn't being derided for being a decent chap, which we all agree - he is. People distrust him because they don't KNOW where he stands on brexit. plus with someone as nutty and unpredictable in the White House - is this the time to chuck out an independent nuclear deterrent. The Yanks are great people but they have a tendency to leave us high and dry as in 1939 and at the time of Suez. WE can't help the fact that this country has a history and many many enemies. Ignore it at your peril. most people don't - and as with Kinnock and Foot before - this alone will send Corbyn unlamented to the bottom of the ocean. his call and he blew it!

I think Ake is right on this point - a lot of labour voters will vote tory. bad news for the nhs and much else.

as usual i will vote labour with a heavy heart - but that's how it is!

19 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM (#3851153)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Re McGrath's surprise at Ake changing his mind - there has been some folks changing stance. People voted either Yes or No at the last Indy vote but it doesn't mean they are defined by that. It is not always their number one issue. There are a hard core of both Yes and No voters who's minds would never be changed but a lot of folk have a softer view on the debate. That is they are open to change. I've not personally come across anyone here in Kelso who has gone from Yes to No because of the SNP's stance on the EU but they do exist in Scotland and obviously Ake could be one of them. It goes the other way too though. I know two people personally who were both quite avid No voters in the Indy referendum. Both Labour voters and spoke out against the Yes campaign. Both are now openly saying they support independence and one who is an English born lady in her 60s who has been a member of Labour all her adult life is now saying she will vote for the sitting SNP member in the GE. I'm not sure how it will go in Scotland. The three unionist seats are all in the top five at risk seats in Scotland - however I imagine the SNP will maybe be a wee bit short of the 50% of the vote they got last time. I imagine they are still likely to be well over the 40% and maybe over 45%. Most of their seats have pretty solid majorities. So possibly the Tories might pick up several seats - but even having say 5 or 6 out of the 59 Scottish seats would make it hard for Ruth Davidson to back up her claims that everyone is sick of the SNP and no-one in Scotland wants another vote.

19 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM (#3851154)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

I'm sorry, but "in your dreams" isn't a debating point. If you want to police the thread, Stu, start with the sour old bugger who made that remark. As for me, I shrug. It's a thread about a controversial issue, not fluffy bunnies (except that I'm in it and I am one). As for this:

"Typical bloody manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory."

That's my opinion of her and I've given my reasons for saying it. But if it offends you so, I'll rephrase it. Ahem:

"Typical bloomin' manipulating, disreputable, self-serving Tory."

Sorted!

19 Apr 17 - 04:05 AM (#3851157)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

Reasons why May called the election:

1) She has a 20 point lead in the polls.

2) Two dozen tory MPs are under investigation by the CPS over election expenses, and this could force a series of by elections that would deplete her small majority in the commons. This might have been the issue that forced her into a U-turn.

3) Buying time for Brexit; the tories want the mandate for a hard Brexit and free reign over the negotiations without interference from parliament.

4) Labour is an utter shambles and ineffective as an opposition so now's the time to exploit this weakness.

5) Contrary to what May keeps parroting out, the public are far from "coming together" behind her vision of a hard Brexit and she needs to act whilst those against a hard brexet are still unorganised.

6) The LibDems are emerging as the only remain party likely to suggest another referendum to approve the final Brexit deal. Given the 48% need a flag to rally under they could establish both their distance from the tories post-Clegg and their pro-EU credentials. Any momentum they gain in the country would be potentially damaging to the tory hard brexit plans, and so she has to go to the country before the LibDems gather any momentum.

7) At the moment, the non-dom tax-avoiding press barons that won the Brexit vote and last election are still in the ascendancy with their brand of hard right-wing conservatism; they are pushing for a hard brexit and whilst May has their support winning a mandate will be much easier.

19 Apr 17 - 04:07 AM (#3851158)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

"If you want to police the thread, Stu"

I cannot police this thread.

19 Apr 17 - 04:36 AM (#3851163)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains

"She's called this election, in spite of promising not to, and in spite of the fact that she has an overall majority, in order to get a bigger majority so as to sideline her own scumbag rebels."
With labour nothing but a has been party it would be a stupid, incompetent prime minister that did not call a snap election in the present circumstances.
   The aftermath will be the interesting time. With such a short lead time the 20% that can be assed to vote will have to think for themselves instead of taking their orders from whatever daily comic they read.
Not much time to spin and weave fairy stories this time around.
I anticipate more than a few applecarts being upset, with potential surprises in Scotland. It also gives an excuse to kick brexit a little further down the road.

19 Apr 17 - 05:07 AM (#3851174)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

It also gives an excuse to kick brexit a little further down the road.

Not much chance of that. There is a fixed timescale of two years from invoking Article 50.
What it does mean is that the end of the negotiations on Brexit won't take place with a general election looming on the horizon.

19 Apr 17 - 06:26 AM (#3851185)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

With labour nothing but a has been party it would be a stupid, incompetent prime minister that did not call a snap election in the present circumstances

That has-been party has to agree to the election in the first place and if it did not believe there was a chance of regaining some lost ground it would not have done so. I don't do predictions but no politician on any side is stupid. Dishonest and self serving maybe but stupid, no. We are in a situation where one side believes in one outcome and one believes in another. Given the inaccuracy of recent polls, anything could happen!

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 07:08 AM (#3851194)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

It will be interesting to see the chaos of Labour Party Candidate selection if "Puppet Master" McCluskey wins the UNITE leadership election in 10 days time if he does that'll hammer a few more nails in Labour's coffin. Irrespective of how much Carroll, Corbyn and McCluskey desire it this country is NOT going back to the early 1970s no matter how hard they try.

One thing that will come out up in Scotland will be the track record of Scottish Governments since devolution - mainly characterised by their unwillingness to govern - by June 8th the increases in Council Tax will have started to bite and questions will be asked why the Scottish Parliament has not used the powers it has to help solve specifically Scottish problems - "It's all Westminster's fault" - is now no longer acceptable. MSP were elected and they are paid to govern Scotland, high time they started doing that instead of just posing and playing at it.

Brexit is a reality, nothing is stopping it now that Article 50 has been triggered. The reality for an independent Scotland is that that will not happen until 2021 at the earliest meaning that Scotland will not be in a position to become a member of the EU until 2026 to 2031. I think the EU will have gone through a great deal of change in the next 9 to 14 years.

19 Apr 17 - 07:41 AM (#3851197)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

"Brexit is a reality, nothing is stopping it now that Article 50 has been triggered."

Quite, but the issue is now whether we have a hard or soft Brexit. Remember about how the Brexiteers banged on about remaining in the single market like Norway etc? Was this just MORE lies? This is still a choice that we have to make as a country, not a choice for those under the control of "puppet masters" Dacre, Murdoch et al with their own agenda's of hatred and division.

Like it or not, we all have a stake in this, and we all still have a say.

19 Apr 17 - 08:08 AM (#3851202)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Every single reason she's given for calling this election is bogus. The opposition parties can't scupper her because she has an overall majority, and the Lords can't scupper her. Brexit is supposedly signed and sealed way before there's an election "looming." This is all about trying to fix her own right-wing, nothing else. A weak party leader in hock to her own hawks. Puppet masters if you like. She'll need a big majority of mostly complicit softies to overcome them. She may not get it, and she hasn't got the charisma to face them down.

19 Apr 17 - 08:28 AM (#3851204)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Guy Verhofstadt summed it up well when he said that in the future people will see Brexit for what is, "a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, stupidity."

This latest move is just a continuation of that catfight. Hopefully by the end the fat cats will all be hairless, toothless and de-clawed after ripping each other to pieces for so long.

We can but hope.

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 09:08 AM (#3851213)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Guy Verhofstadt summed it up well when he said that in the future people will see Brexit for what is, "a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, stupidity."

Clearly he's summed up his view of it.

As an optimist I trust we will look back on it as having been the means to get ourselves free of European dominance, and regain an ability to trade with the rest of the world, including the Commonwealth, under our own terms.

Of course, I don't have Guy Verhofstadt's crystal ball, so cannot say that that is how we will look back on it. From the wording he seems very clear that his view will definitely come to pass. He's possibly as creditable as all those who were predicting dire results for the UK from the date of the referendum, were we to vote to leave.
We did so vote (by a majority of those voting) and the calamities failed to materialise.

19 Apr 17 - 09:10 AM (#3851215)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

and the calamities failed to materialise.

Nothing has happened toward Brexit yet! It is the old tale of the man who jumped off the roof and was heard to say when passing the 32nd floor 'so far so good'

:D tG

19 Apr 17 - 09:27 AM (#3851222)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes, but the doom merchants were prophesying instant gloom. A massive tax hiking budget to fill some imagined black hole. An instant downturn in production & employment. - These didn't happen.
If you must use such a poor analogy as the man jumping off the roof, then it is "so far so good". But the doom merchants weren't saying he'll kill himself when he hits the ground. They were saying "He'll smash his head open on the parapet before he even gets clear of the roof!"

So far so good. Of course, if a European War kicks off in 2067, someone will say "Oh yes, this was caused by Brexit in 2016. We predicted it at the time."

19 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM (#3851230)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, but the doom merchants were prophesying instant gloom.

Of course some were, just like the Brexiteers were promising to spend what they save in EU fees on the NHS. Lots of lies were told by all sides. It was the most ridiculous, ill advised, uninformed fiasco we have seen in many a year. The whole point being made was that the referendum should never have happened. It was a result of the posh lads from Eton panicking that they may have there noses pushed out of the trough.

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM (#3851233)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

i've heard the calling of this election opportunistic.

you can't help feeling JC and his mates have presented her with the opportunity.

19 Apr 17 - 10:31 AM (#3851234)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

The pound is still trading at 10% below it's pre-referendum price. You may not have noticed increases in the cost of food and fuel but they have increased over and above what was expected.

19 Apr 17 - 10:32 AM (#3851235)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

With labour nothing but a has been party it would be a stupid, incompetent prime minister that did not call a snap election in the present circumstances

Keeping your word counts as stupid and incompetent. Which is I suppose the reason why Jeremy Corbyn is said to be stupid and incompetent.

Wouldn't it be a nice change to have a politician in charge who can be trusted to keep his word? I'd like to see Corbyn put this right at the front of his campaigning. Of course any politician can promise to keep their word, and then go ahead and break that promise when it's convenient. The difference is, Corbyn has a record of being honest to back that up, and the others haven't in the same way. And of course Theresa May, in common with her predecessor, has made firm repeated promises which they have gone directly back on.

19 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM (#3851237)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: MikeL2

Hi Nigel

"

I completely agree with you. I Guess I am an optimist but I do believe Brexit will work out OK for us. Obviously there will be problems and we will have to deal with them.

All this moaning about the PM changing her mind is stupid. Any leader
worth his/her salt would take opportunities as they occur.

I have never voted other than Labour but come June i will vote Conservative.

Cheers

MikeL2

19 Apr 17 - 11:13 AM (#3851239)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

The whole point being made was that the referendum should never have happened. It was a result of the posh lads from Eton panicking that they may have there noses pushed out of the trough.

And there was me thinking that it was because UKIP were gaining in popular vote and the snouts in the trough realised they had to offer a referendum, or a party which would might offer one would start taking more of their seats. (Effectively brought about by popular pressure)

19 Apr 17 - 12:01 PM (#3851248)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Seriously there are more things affecting people's pockets than a modest council tax raise after it being frozen for 9 years!!!

19 Apr 17 - 12:12 PM (#3851250)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Allan, have you ever studied the views of Jim Sillars?
His and mine coincide almost exactly, I am a social conservative, and a socialist politically. David Carter UK obviously does not understand this philosophy.

Back to Independence and Brexit, I am Still very much in favour of Scottish Independence, but think it will be much easier to attain after we (the UK) have extricated ourselves from the EU.
I want to see our people in proper employment not existing in a parasitical lifestyle dependent on cheap foreign labour, which is bad for everyone including the countries that the immigrants hail from.
We need to spend real money on mass retraining schemes in which people will be taught how to perform jobs which are of real value to the Scottish economy.
I would also like to see one years compulsory work experience for all school leavers who were not capable of further education.
A life on derisory benefits must not be an option for our young people.

Independence must mean more than saltire waving, we need to create a completely new society for our new Nation. The little reforms visualised by Sturgeon and the comfortably fat Westminster Scottish MP's will not suffice. A new way of thinking is required for all our citizens.

19 Apr 17 - 12:25 PM (#3851251)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

So Ake, in your little cloud cuckoo land, who is going to gather the lettuce, celery, broccoli etc from the fields. All very much labour intensive and all remarkably badly paid.

Is it going to be all these highly skilled retrained people you suggest.


Just curious you understand.

19 Apr 17 - 12:31 PM (#3851252)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

I am pretty sure we just said the same thing, Nigel. The referendum was a result of the Tories panicking and getting their knickers in twist over the popular view that those damned furriners were taking over our little island. Verhofstadt had the right idea although his words may not have been spot on. Then again his English is a lot better than my Flemish.

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 12:48 PM (#3851254)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

I am a social conservative, and a socialist politically.

This Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa and the Conservative Party

Is it me or does anyone else think that anyone who says they are a socialist yet will vote conservative is either a liar or an idiot?

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 12:51 PM (#3851255)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Raggytash...or course we will require "unskilled labour" a misnomer if ever I saw one.
In this part of Scotland, most work used to be centred round small farming and whole generations grew up learning the skills of horticulture and animal husbandry.

There are plenty of people who would rather perform work to such purpose rather than exist in one of Scotlands drug infested, poverty ridden, soul destroying sinks.

A life on benefits must not be an option and work of any description must be given status and value if it is in the interests of the new economy. As I said before, with Independence must come a new thought process and a sense of worth.

19 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM (#3851257)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Dave, this election will be about Brexit. I know many socialists who want the UK out of the EU.

You seem to confuse "Socialist" with "liberal". You could not be more wrong......tho' I hesitate to call you an idiot.

19 Apr 17 - 01:41 PM (#3851260)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

This Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa...

Of course if you intend to vote for Teresa May (as opposed to Theresa May) that puts a rather different complexion on it. The two ladies exhibit a strikingly different image.

19 Apr 17 - 01:54 PM (#3851264)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)

Ake, if they are socialists they are internationalists. What you are describing are right wing trade unionists.

19 Apr 17 - 02:00 PM (#3851265)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

You seem to confuse "Socialist" with "liberal".

And you, ake, seem to be confusing being a socialist with voting for the complete polar opposite.

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 03:22 PM (#3851279)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

Vacuum-assisted closure is more the topic of discussion in our house, or currently in my wife's hospital room, where I'm currently spending all non sleeping/working time!

May is little more than a "founders' day hat lady", and corbyn is little more than a facebook joke!!! If Labour saw sense and replaced corbyn with Hilary Benn, then I would surely vote labour!!!

19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM (#3851288)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

You could not be more wrong......tho' I hesitate to call you an idiot.


Well Ake - in your case in light of recent your posts, in your case I wouldn't hesitate one whit.

19 Apr 17 - 04:13 PM (#3851292)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

I think Corbyn is fine but the media have done an excellent hatchet job on him. Sadly, half the population seem to believe what the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere tell them so he will face an uphill struggle no matter how good he may be. Too late to do anything now but if he does not improve the parties profile during and after the election it may be curtains for him. I see Starmer being a much better leader than Benn.

DtG

19 Apr 17 - 04:35 PM (#3851295)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

If Corbyn had only said "We are ready to allow you to have an election - but on condition that you agree to take part in a face-to face TV debate with your rivals", I wonder what she'd have done?

She's clearly scared of going into a face-to-face debate, but I can't think how she could have got out of that one. I imagine she'd have said "Of course I am eager to have a debate". Even if she changed her mind the next day, which would be consistent on her part, it would have been embarassing. And in a proper debate Corbyn's strengths and Theresa's weaknesses could have shown up in a way that the knockabout nonsense of PMQs doesn't permit so well. That's why she's running scared of risking such a debate.

It's all right being honest and decent, but a bit of low cunning is also helpful.

19 Apr 17 - 04:38 PM (#3851296)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Don't know what you're getting at Mr McGrath, but sorry for the typo anyway.

19 Apr 17 - 05:04 PM (#3851300)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Brexit is no longer up for debate that debate was won months ago.

All Mrs May needs is to be able to fight without her arms being held by sore "liberals", self serving MPs and most of the contents of "another place"........no not the shithouse, but you're close.

19 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM (#3851302)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains

The reality is that the Prime Minister can call a snap election whenever and for whatever, subject to approval by MPs under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. If it is thought that the ruling party can become more dominant or lance some internal boils by calling an election then this is the route they will follow. It does require supreme confidence in the outcome however. With dodgy dave's referendum fiasco I would say calling an election early could give rise to totally unexpected results. All we need now is for the Prime Minister to resign her seat andd we will know that brexit is doomed.

19 Apr 17 - 05:41 PM (#3851303)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Vote Labour anyway, Bonzo. They will lose this election big time and Jeremy will have to go. There is blood to be shed. I hate to say all that and I desperately want to be wrong.

Akenaton's main confusion is that he thinks his arse is his brain.

19 Apr 17 - 05:49 PM (#3851305)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

Try googling the name, aken.
.......
Remember, there are, as always been the case, only a minority of the population who vote Tory. If those who dislike them vote, and vote intelligently so as to get rid of them, they'll be swept away. It's only our shabby electoral system that gives them a majority in Parliament.

The same goes for Labour - the natural "party" of government in the UK (while it exists) is a left of centre coalition, reflecting the actual wishes of the people.

19 Apr 17 - 06:28 PM (#3851311)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Ake the point for me is self determination. What relationship Scotland then has with the EU is secondary to that and up to Scots voters. I see the logic of people who want to remain in the UK but personally I struggle to see the logic in someone wanting independence but putting their vote for a party which is blocking the Scottish people's right to decide if they want independence or not!!

19 Apr 17 - 07:27 PM (#3851322)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

i come from Lincolnshire. WE used to pick the flowers and vegetables. And no - it wasn't paid very well.A lot of Irish people used to come over in harvest time. Students. and strangely enough badly paid English people.

Strange that you think we are incapable of working in our own fields.

Rather like the hosiery and clothes manufacturing - we were rather good at it. Many people thought there was a massive dropping off in quality in stores like Marks and Spencer after they started manufacturing abroad.

19 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM (#3851330)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

We're not incapable but we may not want to. Ask the farmers.

19 Apr 17 - 08:50 PM (#3851336)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

the thing is Steve.property has always been a lot cheaper in these areas. you probably stand a better chance of owning property picking peas in Lincolnshire than being a primary school teacher in LOndon.

19 Apr 17 - 09:29 PM (#3851340)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

That kind of seasonal harvesting has for centuries been dependant on migrant workers, whether from far corners of Britain or Ireland, or from elsewhere. Modern transport and other factors make it more practical for such people to stick around - after all different crops, typically in different areas, need harvesting at different times of year.

That's not the kind of lifestyle the settled English choose to go in for generally. That's not laziness, it's just not suited to most people's family life. But such migrants aren't in fact generally taking jobs that the locals would be working in. The shortage of those kind of jobs in such areas is down to other factors.

There'll still be a need for just as many immigrants of various sorts when Brexit finally kicks in, and our comfy fall ends on the hard pavement, but a lot of them won't choose to come to this country - that's already being demonstrated in the NUS, with the exodus of tens of thousands of EU nurses, doctors and other staff.

As has been said already, even if Mrs May cons voters into giving her a victory this time, in 2022 the election will be traumatic for her. But that's a big "if" - remember, no one dreamed Churchill would lose, and lose badly, in 1945.

20 Apr 17 - 02:23 AM (#3851350)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

The Brexit vote is the huge spanner in this election. True, ake, the decision to leave has been made, but no party has sorted out even a vision of the relationship afterwards. So the leavers have every reason to vote in the way they think strengthens their view, even if they are traditionally aligned to another party. Equally, the remainers.

So I would not want to assume Mrs May will end up with an increased majority. She might, of course. But she might not.

20 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM (#3851357)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Interesting analysis here - How to vote to beat the Tories

Someone has done their homework. Hope it is useful.

DtG

20 Apr 17 - 03:31 AM (#3851359)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

And a good article here - Think Jeremy Corbyn is a loser? Oh dear, you've been brainwashed…

Enjoy

DtG

20 Apr 17 - 03:50 AM (#3851363)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

"
We're not incapable but we may not want to. Ask the farmers. "

I see the points I have been making have been completely ignored, when will people realise that we may not always depend on getting "what we want".

In the future it is entirely possible that some people will have several different jobs, especially those involved in seasonal industries.

We have been living well beyond our means for decades, time for a reality check.
Regardless of the Independence question, the whole of the UK needs to re-evaluate "work" and status within society.

The days when everything was about money are behind us and that means examining the role that money has afforded a minority of our citizens.
We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed.

20 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM (#3851367)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

"We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed"

Meanwhile the rich get richer.

20 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM (#3851371)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

when will people realise that we may not always depend on getting "what we want"

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address and you have already shown your colours on where you stand on that by stating you will vote Tory. Come out of the 1930s mentality and wake up to the fact that things have moved on since you were a lad. Thankfully.

DtG

20 Apr 17 - 04:20 AM (#3851373)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

'We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed.'

quite right. lets get rid of the sewage system - go back to dumping shit in the streets.

20 Apr 17 - 04:54 AM (#3851377)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address and you have already shown your colours on where you stand on that by stating you will vote Tory. Come out of the 1930s mentality and wake up to the fact that things have moved on since you were a lad. Thankfully.

Unfortunately cloud-cuckoo land.
Complete redistribution of the wealth would make everyone equal (very briefly)but if all jobs paid equally, who would want to be a manager or entrepreneur. There's no increased pay to go with the increased responsibility. Our current society has reached this stage because people strove to "better" themselves. This is the result of centuries of striving. People can still improve their situation by striving, but the politics of envy don't help.

And no, I'm not rich. I'm a government employee, but a realist.

20 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM (#3851379)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Unfortunately cloud-cuckoo land.
Complete redistribution of the wealth would make everyone equal

Who said anything about complete and equal distribution of Wealth, Nigel? Certainly not me. I have long advocated responsible capitalism as part of the way forward. You have set up a straw man to be, quite rightly, knocked down but no one has suggested equal distribution of wealth. Just a fairer share. That can never be achieved by a party that panders to the richest few while ignoring the needs of the rest. If you think it is right that 5% of the people on this planet own 95% of wealth it is you who are living in the land of the cloud cuckoo. Whatever one of those is.

DtG

20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM (#3851382)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Ah, how easy it is to get sucked Into this "politics of envy" thing. Advocating more fairness than we have now is not envy, Nigel. I've had that thrown at me this week for suggesting that fee-paying schools shouldn't exist. As a matter of fact we could quite easily have afforded to send our two to fee-paying schools had we chosen to organise our finances a bit differently. We didn't do so because we wanted them to mix with the whole spectrum of children and learn how to motivate themselves without pushy parents chasing up their big "financial investment" in them (though we could be pretty pushy for other reasons). Your more pay for more responsibility argument falls down badly in two ways. First, a CEO who pays himself a hundred times more than the lady who cleans the toilets in his office suite is not working a hundred times harder. Ah, you say, but his job carries far more responsibility. Really? So, second point, how easy it is to throw around that word "responsibility." I take it that you're referring to responsibility for maintaining the profits so that the shareholders' dividends won't collapse, or responsibility for setting up a business model that pays producers as little as possible but which charges as high a price for the goods as possible. I suppose the Barclay brothers' accountants are extremely highly-paid, as they are responsible for shielding the brothers' massive wealth from the taxman. Well I'm not prepared, and neither should you be, to put that alongside the responsibility that comes with the job of a care home worker who has to attend to the physical and mental wellbeing of old, sick people, often through the night, often involving very unpleasant tasks, or the responsibility that comes with healthcare workers in hospitals who are responsible for ensuring that deadly infections don't spread through the wards. They're pretty low-paid, aren't they? Is that fair, d'you think?

And I don't think anyone here is advocating absolutely equal pay for everyone. That's your Aunt Sally I'm afraid. Even the most ardent socialist accepts the need for incentives for people to better themselves, believe it or not. It's a matter of proportion though, isn't it?

20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM (#3851383)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address
So what position between the above, and equal distribution of wealth do you advocate?

You clearly disagree with the current distribution, but also appear to agree that equal distribution is not viable. Presumably there is some point in the middle that would suit you, but what is it?

This is very much the same position the Conservative Party find themselves in, but they are howled down for knowing that we should leave the EU even though there is no definite aim for exactly where they should position the country in its future relations with the EU.

20 Apr 17 - 05:40 AM (#3851385)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Duplicated some of your points there, Dave. I posted before I read yours. Your straw man is my Aunt Sally, I see! 😂

20 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM (#3851389)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Plenty of Tories around who DON'T know that we should leave the EU, Nigel.

20 Apr 17 - 05:52 AM (#3851391)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, there is some middle ground, Nigel. Unregulated capitalism has been shown to be a disaster as was the communist model of east Europe. As to This is very much the same position the Conservative Party find themselves in I am afraid that has proven to be completely untrue with the present administration. They have shown themselves to be the lapdogs of rich media moguls and powerful corporations over and over again.

I doubt we will get much better after the election and I have fears for the education and health care of my grandchildren. If the wealth was distributed so just a tiny fraction of that 95% of wealth went into education and health care those fears may be allayed.

DtG

20 Apr 17 - 05:57 AM (#3851393)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry - Should make myself clearer. All I am saying is that instead of telling the 95% of us that own 5% of the wealth we should tighten our belts and give up our social care the government should be concentrating on the 5% who can well afford to give up a portion of what they have to maintain a good system. The theory of wealth 'filtering down' just does not work.

D.

20 Apr 17 - 07:53 AM (#3851406)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

And the effect of a CEO is more limited than you might imagine, according to Harvard Business Review

20 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM (#3851413)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

"In the future it is entirely possible that some people will have several different jobs, especially those involved in seasonal industries."

Tell me Ake, will you be one of these people?

20 Apr 17 - 08:43 AM (#3851416)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"but the politics of envy don't help."
Neither does such crass comments as that Nigel
The problem with Tories is they can't see the difference between asking that wealth and privilege be divided fairly (if not equally)
There's nothing fair about this (sorry - you can't blue clickie The Independent)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-divided-decade-the-rich-are-64-richer-than-before-the-recession-while-the-poor-are-57-10097038.html
NOR THIS
THere's nothing "envious about wanrting to put that right, but there's a hell of a lot of smugness in describing wishing to do so "envious"
Somewhat, "ding, ding, I'm on the bus", in my opinionion
Jim Carroll

20 Apr 17 - 09:16 AM (#3851420)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

A ton!

20 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM (#3851421)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Sorry - Should make myself clearer. All I am saying is that instead of telling the 95% of us that own 5% of the wealth we should tighten our belts and give up our social care the government should be concentrating on the 5% who can well afford to give up a portion of what they have to maintain a good system. The theory of wealth 'filtering down' just does not work.
Yes, but there is only so much that can be done. Never mind the top 5%, the top 1% already pay more than 1/4 of the nation's income tax.


As for Jim Carroll's "Ding ding, I'm on the bus". I've already stated that I'm not anywhere near what could be considered 'wealthy'. so his comments can't be meant for me. (I'm part of the '95%' too)
But he does seem to respond (at length) without caring to read what he's responding to.

20 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM (#3851423)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Then just try and imagine how large their income must be ..........

............... poor little darlings.

20 Apr 17 - 09:35 AM (#3851424)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

We must also realise that income tax is a direct taxation.

We are taxed irrespective of our income on all manner of other things, by indirect taxation.

We all need food, part of the cost of that food is the cost of transportation, fuel costs. That fuel is taxed and we as individuals all pay for that cost. If someone earns £100 a week or £10,000 a week we are all taxed the same.

VAT on items is non variable for instance, many other examples could be given.

The taxation system is not entirely fair or equal.

20 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM (#3851425)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

the top 1% already pay more than 1/4 of the nation's income tax.

That really does sum up what I am on about. Just consider how much they have left after paying their taxes. Do you really think and extra few pence on their tax will make a difference to their lives? Will they not be able to afford to buy food or medicine or heat their home? If they are contributing 25% of the total tax revenue, just how much do you think they are earning?

DtG

20 Apr 17 - 09:57 AM (#3851428)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

We all need food, part of the cost of that food is the cost of transportation, fuel costs. That fuel is taxed and we as individuals all pay for that cost. If someone earns £100 a week or £10,000 a week we are all taxed the same.

VAT on items is non variable for instance, many other examples could be given.

Not strictly true, nor accurate.
VAT is not non-variable. It can be (in UK) at rates of 20%, 5%, or Zero%. (Exempt VAT is another matter)
To a great extent VAT replaced purchase tax, or luxury tax. As such basic foodstuffs are zero-rated for VAT, so you don't pay VAT on them. Nor do you pay VAT on the transportation costs on that food.
Luxuries still attract VAT, and one would expect the poorest paid to be spending a higher percentage of their disposable income on necessities, rather than luxuries. So even the impact of VAT will be greater on the 'better off'.

20 Apr 17 - 10:21 AM (#3851430)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Nigel I am aware that most food is not taxed, however the company that produce the food pay tax, they pass on that cost to the consumer, the transportation of that food uses diesel, that diesel is taxed and the cost passed onto the consumer, all the on-costs of producer and distributor, even the shops own costs are passed onto the consumer.etc etc.

VAT is non variable in terms that we ALL pay the same amount for any given item. Simples.

20 Apr 17 - 10:43 AM (#3851431)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

This may need a little simplification.
VAT is 'Value Added Tax'. Each business in the chain accounts for tax on the value they have added to the transaction.
This is done by reclaiming the VAT they have been charged by their suppliers (from HMRC), and paying the VAT that they charge to their customers (to HMRC).
Where the supply they eventually make is zero-rated (basic foodstuffs, children's clothes, books etc.) they have no VAT to pay across to HMRC, but this does not prevent them reclaiming the VAT they have been charged by their suppliers. As such, there is no VAT included in the sale, even in the costs of making that sale.

20 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM (#3851433)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Agreed, but the producer, distributor, shopkeeper all pay other taxes. In order to make a profit, those costs are passed onto the consumer.

20 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM (#3851434)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment
that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops...

Of course... all this means SFA to millionair/investment vintage guitar collectors
like that ex pat Brit spiv git living in Monaco who bought Mick Ronson's Les Paul... 🙄

20 Apr 17 - 11:04 AM (#3851435)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I've already stated that I'm not anywhere near what could be considered 'wealthy'. "
Doesn't matter Nigel - it's become a knee-jerk defence against a glaring social anomaly
Your own position is immaterial - that's what you are defending and that's what I'm criticising
It's not as if we haven't been here a thousand times.
Criticism of inequality is not, and never has been envy politics - it is simply a description of what is increasingly wrong with our society.
Jim Carroll

20 Apr 17 - 11:42 AM (#3851443)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM

Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment
that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops...

How does Brexit affect that?
And why are they VAT free at present?

The only VAT free musical instruments I know of are for students.

20 Apr 17 - 12:53 PM (#3851456)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron

punkfolkrocker wrote: Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments
I had to pay VAT on a guitar I bought in the USA a couple of years ago. Well before Brexit.

20 Apr 17 - 01:16 PM (#3851459)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Backwoodsman

Musical instruments are subject to VAT at Standard Rate - currently 20%. This applies to all instruments except those sold to students under the AIP Scheme. It includes instruments imported from outside the EU.

20 Apr 17 - 01:40 PM (#3851462)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

oops.. it's alright.. I'd only just woke up and wasn't thinking straight... 😳

Of course I was still half asleep and confusing it with additional import duties
which atm aren't an issue with Euro music purchases...

However, USA purchases used to be cost effective even after import duties and UK VAT paid on the total including shipping costs..

But sadly no longer so affordable any more..

Definitely wont be surprised if the same happens with purchases from Europe after brexit...

That'll hurt countless skint UK musicians...???

20 Apr 17 - 02:21 PM (#3851468)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

[just had me dinner]

back 10 / 15 years ago I was buying great bargain guitars from usa when we got about nearly 2 dollars for a quid
and shipping to UK was still reasonably affordable...

so how long after brexit before our EU neighbours get 2 quid for a Euro...??? 😜

20 Apr 17 - 04:14 PM (#3851484)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Backwoodsman

Some years ago, as a survival gift to myself following major surgery (twice), I bought a Martin OM-28 Marquis from a US dealer. I got a few cents over $2 to the £ and, with the 40% (yes, that's FORTY - FOUR-ZERO - PERCENT!) discount US dealers will give, even after adding shipping costs, import duty and VAT, I saved at least £800 compared to UK prices.

Sadly, those days are now gone, thanks to the BrexShit Buffoonery.

20 Apr 17 - 04:17 PM (#3851485)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Backwoodsman

Import duty is only about 4% on instruments, PFR. It's VAT (which is calculated on the value of the instrument plus shipping costs plus import duty! Tax on tax!) that's the killer, IMHO.

20 Apr 17 - 05:32 PM (#3851499)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

"thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops..."

All non business to business sales from one EC member state to another VAT are charged to VAT at the rate applicable in the country of origin.

20 Apr 17 - 06:07 PM (#3851501)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Bearing in mind I actually passed Economics & Accounting A levels.. and OND Business Studies 40 years ago
whilst playing in a hippy punk band...

My grasp of all the complexities of post brexit trades deals, exchange rates, tax, travel visa bureaucracy, etc..

is that skint UK musicians will be even more f@cked than ever before...!!! 😬

21 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM (#3851554)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

The point you are missing about VAT, Nigel, is that low earners spend a much higher percentage of their income on VAT than high earners do. This is what makes a tax on goods and services fair less equitable than a tax on income at source. VAT is the third largest source of income to the government. If they were to do away with it and add an extra few pence to the rate of top earners it would be a much fairer system.

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 05:01 AM (#3851569)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave, I would have thought that low earners would pay a much lower percentage.
The basic costs of living:
Rent/mortgage: Exempt from VAT
Basic foodstuffs: Zero rated
Public transport: Zero rated

The percentage they spend on 'luxuries' (Beer, tobacco etc.) is their own choice. But the basics of life are VAT free.

21 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM (#3851576)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Nigel, If a company employs people they are paid a wage, out of those wages they pay tax. Their wages are paid from the cost of the goods they produce. The consumer buys those commodities and thus pays a share of the tax that the employee pays.

If the company makes a profit they would pay tax (one hopes). Those profits come from the cost of the goods they sell, thus the consumer by purchasing those goods almost pays a share of those taxes too.

The same applies to the distributor and the shopkeeper. Although there is no DIRECT taxation on some goods there is an indirect taxation of almost everything that is bought.

Those on the least income can thus pay proportionally more of their income in tax.

That element of tax is the same no matter what the income of an individual is, rich or poor.

21 Apr 17 - 06:01 AM (#3851580)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

The comment I was responding to was that low earners spend a much higher percentage of their income on VAT than high earners do.

21 Apr 17 - 06:20 AM (#3851584)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

But VAT is only one element in a whole raft of taxes, most of which are unavoidable to the less well off.

In discussing personal taxation one cannot take VAT in isolation.

If anything those who are fortunate enough to have a large income, can with varying degrees of jiggery pokery, legal and illegal, avoid paying taxes that are due.

21 Apr 17 - 06:24 AM (#3851585)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel -

The percentage they spend on 'luxuries' (Beer, tobacco etc.) is their own choice. But the basics of life are VAT free.

Heating is not exempt. Fuel is not exempt. Sanitary towels are not exempt. Need I go on? And please don't tell me you are going to come out with the usual crap about the poor spending all their money on chips and beer!

Let's try a simple example to illustrate why they spend more of their disposable income on VAT and why taxing income at source would be fairer.

10 people

1 earns £1000
9 earn £100

9 pay income tax at 20% = £20 each = £180
1 pays 20% on £100 (£20) and 40% on £900 (£360) = £380

Total revenue to government = £560

All pay a £10 gas bill with 5% VAT = 50p each = £5

Total government revenue including VAT = £565

Disposable income of 1 = £620
Disposable income of other 9 = £80 each

% of disposable income paid on VAT

1= 0.08%
9= 0.625% - Nearly 8 times as much.

Now, let us remove VAT

Same people. Increase top income tax to 45%

9 people have same disposable income.
1 pays 20% on £100 (£20) and 45% on £900 (£405) = £425
His disposable income drops from £620 to £575.

Government income goes from £565 to £605
9 people are happy that their fuel bill has gone down by 50p
The government have more to spend on social care.
1 person pays £45 more tax but still has nearly 8 times more disposable income than the others.

Does this not seem fairer?

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 07:21 AM (#3851593)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave,
That totally ignores Personal Allowances which have been steadily increased over recent years, keeping the really low paid out of paying income tax at all. While being reduced/cancelled for those on really high incomes.

Also the maths is dodgy, as you give them all a cost for 'Gas' but don't use this to reduce their disposable income.

21 Apr 17 - 07:26 AM (#3851594)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

The tax free allowance threshold is the same for everyone irrespective of income Nigel, and as I have to point out there are many ways in which we all pay indirect tax, again irrespective of income.

21 Apr 17 - 07:34 AM (#3851595)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

The tax free allowance threshold is the same for everyone irrespective of income Nigel, and as I have to point out there are many ways in which we all pay indirect tax, again irrespective of income.
I linked to the facts above.
In answer to your comment I'll give an actual quote from that page:
The Personal Allowance goes down by £1 for every £2 of income above the £100,000 limit. It can go down to zero.

21 Apr 17 - 07:44 AM (#3851598)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

I stand corrected Nigel, I just pity the poor little darlings earning so much.

21 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM (#3851600)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

It doesn't ignore anything, Nigel. There is no mention of those other things because they are not required. I have kept it simple to demonstrate that those on lower incomes pay a higher percentage of their disposable incomes in VAT.

Let us make it even simpler.

If my disposable income is £1000 and I pay £10 in VAT on goods and services I have used 1% of my disposable income on VAT.

If I purchase the same things yet have only £100 disposable income I have used 10% of my disposable income on VAT.

It really is quite simple. Now, can you tell me how someone who has more money pays more in VAT on the same goods and services?

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 08:18 AM (#3851603)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

What's the point of whining, that's the way modern capitalism survives......financial aspiration. Until we learn that is unsustainable and dangerous to society , we are up shit creek.

The problem is that nobody really wants the alternative, because we are under the illusion that we are free.......we could all win the game, but unfortunately the dice are heavily loaded.

21 Apr 17 - 08:20 AM (#3851604)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

...but I accept the point about disposable income. It was me using the wrong phrase. It should have been income after tax. But even if we reduce the amount of disposable income by the total gas bill everyone's disposable is reduced by the same amount and the same principle applies.

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 08:59 AM (#3851618)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

"First, a CEO who pays himself a hundred times more than the lady who cleans the toilets in his office suite is not working a hundred times harder. Ah, you say, but his job carries far more responsibility. Really? So, second point, how easy it is to throw around that word "responsibility." I take it that you're referring to responsibility for maintaining the profits so that the shareholders' dividends won't collapse, or responsibility for setting up a business model that pays producers as little as possible but which charges as high a price for the goods as possible." - Shaw

Number of points here:

1: The CEO doesn't pay himself, his salary along with any bonus payment or share options are NOT set by himself, they are offered and negotiated by the Board of Directors and by the shareholders.

The wages and terms of employment "the cleaning lady" (Why should it be a lady?) are set by Company pay scale, Agency rates, Union Agreements.

The "cleaning lady" works set hours, the CEO does not.

The "cleaning lady" is responsible for ensuring that she performs her own duties and responsibilities to the required standard. The CEO is responsible for ensuring that everyone working for the Company performs their duties and responsibilities to the required standard.

2: How about the "responsibility" of ensuring the company stays in business in relation to product, marketing, development and book in order that its employees still have jobs and continued employment.

Nice to see that you still cling like a limpet to your ideological belief in your clichéd stereotypes - obvious that you have never actually worked in any commercial environment.

21 Apr 17 - 09:14 AM (#3851622)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

.. funny that... when I last worked in a suit and tie for prestigious central London Chartered Surveyors..
the partners at the top were a bunch of unscrupulous self important greedy c@nts;
deliberately breaking the law on Nat insurance and terms of employment for all mere mortals below them in the office hierarchy... 🙄

.. at least they got done for it when they suddenly discarded our entire department,
and the benefits agencies discovered what they'd been doing to evade the law....

21 Apr 17 - 09:26 AM (#3851625)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

But those who have more disposable income will, presumably, spend more. It's no use looking at a figure the VAT on the goods they buy (being identical to those bought by someone on a totally different income) as a percentage of their disposable income. As a percentage that figure is meaningless.
For goods which are liable to VAT, they can choose how much of their disposable income they spend, and for everyone buying standard rated goods at the standard rated VAT they are paying 20%.
Those with a higher disposable income will probably spend more than those with a lower disposable income, and that spend is more likely to be on goods which have VAT levied on them (basically 'luxuries'). The poor are more likely to direct their spending toward 'necessities'.

In the circumstances you quote, the percentages you choose are meaningless.

21 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM (#3851629)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Gnome, refactor your model to reflect the reality of the situation with regard to benefits, allowances and taxes where 60% of the taxpayers take out more in benefits and allowances than they pay in tax. That is the situation in the UK at present. According to reports at the moment the break even threshold is £38,000 per year.

Income Tax represents a tiny fraction of HMRC revenue. The constant whine about taxing the rich leads ultimately to capital flight and you end up taking in less than you did before, the measure becomes self defeating.

By the way any time "fair" is mentioned, nobody ever states who decides what "fair" is.

21 Apr 17 - 10:00 AM (#3851637)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Income Tax represents a tiny fraction of HMRC revenue

Is it really Teribus? According to this infographic Income tax and national insurannce made up 51% of government income with non direct taxes beeing 42% and business/other being 7%. Have you anything to challenge that?

I agree that it is difficult to get 'fair' quantified but 5% of the people owning 95% of the wealth does not seem to be very equitable does it?

Nigel - I am still not getting my point across am I? Regardless of who spends what, taxing everyone at the same rate as happens with VAT is, to my mind, not a good thing. You believe it is. I suspect we will never agree.

Cheers

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 10:08 AM (#3851640)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

While there are still tories who believe the 'poor' don't deserve to own any luxuries, even TVs and mobile phones..... 😣

21 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM (#3851642)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel - I am still not getting my point across am I? Regardless of who spends what, taxing everyone at the same rate as happens with VAT is, to my mind, not a good thing. You believe it is. I suspect we will never agree.
But you are advocating increasing income tax for the rich, to reduce VAT on fuel to 0% for everybody. Is that not taxing everyone at the same rate on that commodity?
Would it make a difference to your view if VAT on fuel was reduced to 0% (not an option I believe we have while remaining part of the EC) but an additional levy placed on the power firms, which they would pass on to the public in the form of higher prices all around.

21 Apr 17 - 10:19 AM (#3851644)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Just had a thought - Maybe 'fair' should be that everyone has enough to live rather than just survive? Works for me.

Second thought while I was typing - No need to refactor anything but I will rephrase. If someone with £10 has to buy an item for £1.20 and 20p of that is VAT then they have used 2% of their money on VAT. If someone with £100 buys the same item they have only used 0.2% of theirs. The poorer person has paid 2% in tax while the richer one has only paid 0.2%. It would be much fairer to remove this inequality and simply apply income tax more evenly. I am lucky enough to be well over the mentioned threshold (but well under the one where my allowances reduce I must add!) and I would happily pay an extra 5% on my higher earnings. Maybe others think differently and that is why we constantly get reduction of taxes for the rich and austerity for the poor.

Sigh...

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 10:22 AM (#3851647)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

If the tax rate on fuel was 0% it's not really being taxed is it.

21 Apr 17 - 11:07 AM (#3851663)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Second thought while I was typing - No need to refactor anything but I will rephrase. If someone with £10 has to buy an item for £1.20 and 20p of that is VAT then they have used 2% of their money on VAT. If someone with £100 buys the same item they have only used 0.2% of theirs. The poorer person has paid 2% in tax while the richer one has only paid 0.2%. It would be much fairer to remove this inequality This is NOT a tax inequality. The percentage relates to the cost of the item bought and is 20% of the net price.
The person with the higher income can buy many more of these items than the person on the lower income, but the total number bought will be in relation to their available funds. No matter how many of these items are bought the tax rate (VAT) on them is still going to be 20%.

21 Apr 17 - 11:24 AM (#3851671)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

If the tax rate on fuel was 0% it's not really being taxed is it.
For VAT purposes 0% is considered a rate of VAT. This distinguishes between 'Zero-rated' and 'Exempt' supplies.

And, if we're thinking of motor fuel, it is already liable to 'fuel duty', which, to most people, is just another form of tax.

21 Apr 17 - 11:33 AM (#3851674)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

NIC is paid by both employer and employee and the Treasury has a larger number of income streams than are shown in your infographic.

21 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM (#3851692)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

I am interested in what those extra streams are that make you think that income tax is a 'tiny fraction' of HMRC revenue, Teribus. Can you elaborate?

Nigel. I know what I am on about. You cannot see it. No point continuing.

DtG

21 Apr 17 - 01:44 PM (#3851697)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

"The constant whine about taxing the rich leads ultimately to capital flight and you end up taking in less than you did before, the measure becomes self defeating."

So the rich are holding us to ransom then. Now where have I heard that before...🤔

21 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM (#3851751)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

What would be the problem with abolishing VAT entirely, and relying on increased income tax to replace it?
...................

As for the suggestion that the only reason anyone would want a more responsiblt job is because of getting much higher payment, that just isn't how a lot of people work. Having more say over what goes on, and knowing you can make a difference is rewarding in itself. In any unpaid activity there is no problem in finding people who are eager to take a leading role.   

Determining which of a number of candidates is best equipped for a leading role is nothing to do with who wants the most money.    There is no reason to assume that by reducing the money you would be particularly likely to eliminate the people who are best equipped to do the job.

21 Apr 17 - 08:04 PM (#3851753)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

There wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for those right-wing ideologues who are so desperate to see income tax reduced. You could say the same about council tax, which is just a blunt instrument for increasing the tax take whilst pretending that you're keeping income tax low. Oh yes, council tax, in theory, allows the victim to explore local accountability, but who really cares? The bottom line is how much the government takes off us in overall taxes. That will change hardly at all, but oh, how easily people are taken in...

21 Apr 17 - 09:35 PM (#3851759)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

When I pay my taxes that is to enable public services which I value to have the resources they need, and indeed, to exist at all. Those services are my social wage, which has probably been the most important part of my overall wage.

Talking about governments "how much the government takes off us in taxation" is to stand the true reality on its head. Abolish taxation and most of us would be in poverty. I'd be dead, for a start.

22 Apr 17 - 09:55 AM (#3851864)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

"Taxes are what we pay for civilized society."

            - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

22 Apr 17 - 01:19 PM (#3851876)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

I wasn't railing against tax. Far from it. Just trying to show how we can be hoodwinked.

22 Apr 17 - 02:36 PM (#3851884)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Taxes should be based on cock length...

Most of the worst [if not all] tories are egocentric deluded braggards
so will be bound to lie and exagerate on the self assessment forms...

Hence shifting the tax burden away from those poorest & least able to afford it... 😜

22 Apr 17 - 04:21 PM (#3851899)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Or a graduated land tax. You can't hide the land or put it offshore. Land ownership is at the root of power, yet no-one made the land.

22 Apr 17 - 07:42 PM (#3851916)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

So women wouldn't pay taxes, punk. Might be a little controversial.

22 Apr 17 - 07:58 PM (#3851921)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Dunno, Kevin. These things are more flexible these days.


Ah, Jeez...😳

22 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM (#3851923)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Well.. I admit there are areas of my taxation plan that may require a closer look at
and more of a hands on approach to get a better feel of the essentials.... 🙄

23 Apr 17 - 11:27 AM (#3852013)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

"Or a graduated land tax. You can't hide the land or put it offshore. Land ownership is at the root of power, yet no-one made the land."

Aha, EP Thompson had something to say about that I think!

23 Apr 17 - 01:42 PM (#3852029)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains

I think few would fault taxation if based purely on ability to pay.
Sadly this is not the case. The wealthy can avail themselves of any number of legal procedures to reduce their tax liability. Those on average or low incomes have no such opportunities. Also council tax is not based on ability to pay, it is based upon the value of the property that one resides in. This is even more unfair than the hated poll tax.

23 Apr 17 - 04:18 PM (#3852050)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

I don't believe that it would not be possible to get rid of the loopholes, and criminalise attempts to find new ones, if the will was there.

I'd trust a government led by Jeremy Corbyn to have the will to do that. I'd guarantee that a government led by Theresa May will ensure that plenty of loopholes remain available, and more were opened up to make up for any that were closed, for cosmetic reasons.

24 Apr 17 - 06:36 AM (#3852119)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

We need our own breed of English penguins.

Real Emperor Penguins - the size of real Emporers.

Significantly - none of the parties have mentioned it as being in their manifesto

24 Apr 17 - 06:47 AM (#3852122)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, UKIP have just pledged to ban the burka so I can't see them agreeing to the penguin demand. They look too menacing in their black suits. If they could be forced to wear t-shirts stretched over their beer bellies, SS tattoos and union jack shorts you may be on a winner.

:D tG

24 Apr 17 - 06:58 AM (#3852123)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: MikeL2

Hi

Only 2 certain things in life are death & taxes.

cheers

MikeL2

24 Apr 17 - 07:51 AM (#3852130)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: bobad

So Dave should we take it from your underhanded attempt to make an association with a ban on burkas to the SS that you will not be visiting France, Belgium or the Netherlands any time soon?

24 Apr 17 - 08:55 AM (#3852139)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

As I read Dave's post, the association was UKIP with the SS, not a ban on burkas with the SS.

24 Apr 17 - 09:07 AM (#3852140)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

To be honest it was much more a dig at the type of Brit who chooses to sport SS tattoos, wear Union Jack shorts and support UKIP than anything else. Not that there is anyone like that on here of course...

But, if truth be known, I could not really give a shit about how poobad chooses to misinterpret my post. It is pretty par for the course.

DtG

24 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM (#3852144)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: bobad

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle!

24 Apr 17 - 09:37 AM (#3852146)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Doesn't seem to be able to speak English either but, again, no real surprise there.

Wibble, wibble, wibble?

:D tG

24 Apr 17 - 09:59 AM (#3852155)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"ban on burkas to the SS that you will not be visiting France"
If yesterday's election results are anything to go by, France is rapidly heading for my list of no-go areas alongside Turkey and Israel or any State that adopts an officially racist policy
Wonder if Bobad, who constantly screams at "lefties" cares to comment on the possible election of rightist Marine LePen to the post of President
So far, he has declined to respond to Trump's appointment of an antisemite to his inner-circle, or promotion of one of the most hated racist and antisemitic broadcasters, on American television, ANNE COULTER by one of his mates on this forum.
It seems antisemitism is ok with some people as long as it doesn't frighten the Israeli horses
Jim Carroll

24 Apr 17 - 11:40 AM (#3852173)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Didn't you bother to read your own link Jim.....Ann Coulter is pro Israel and refreshingly outspoken.......I think the Palestinian problem is hugely complicated. Most of the complications seem to have been set up by the corrupt Palestinian leadership who have no wish to see a settlement of the issue.

24 Apr 17 - 12:22 PM (#3852176)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

They certainly don't want to see any more settlements. I'm with them on that.

Marine Le Penne vs Emmanuel Macaroni, eh? Is this a first-pasta-the-post election?



I'll get me coat...

24 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM (#3852184)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Didn't you bother to read your own link Jim.....Ann Coulter is pro Israel and refreshingly outspoken..."
I did indeed, and I make a point of not believing all I read - I judge her on what she says, not what others say about her
Your refusal to respond to challenges of what she says in a pretty clar indication that you should do the same
Anne Coulter is a racist, fascist bigot - David Duke praised her as being as near to his own views as you could get.
I have long given up expecting an honest response from you but thanks for another excuse to put up yet more of your heroine's BON MOTS   
Can I borrow your copy of Mein Kampf sometime?
Jim Carroll

24 Apr 17 - 01:24 PM (#3852191)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

No reason to assume someone isn't antisemitic because they are pro-Israel.

24 Apr 17 - 01:40 PM (#3852192)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Vashta Nerada

Ann Coulter - a refreshing breeze - coming directly from the outhouse. The bogs. The loo. Capiche?

24 Apr 17 - 01:59 PM (#3852197)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

Ann Coulter is pro Israel and refreshingly outspoken

Ann Coulter is an ignorant, loud-mouthed bigoted piece of dirt and a waste of space on the surface of the planet.

You surely have a strange choice of heroes/heroines, Ake.

24 Apr 17 - 04:57 PM (#3852225)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

I think she's VERY funny...and cuts like a knife!

You "liberals" sure don't like to hear what's going on in the real world   :0)

It's happening all around you and you still live in a time warp somewhere between the sixties and the nineties.

I was watching a piece on TV this afternoon, apparently Bernie is the most popular politician in the US......and he's out on the stump drumming up support for the Democrats.....:0)
The bastards tried to do him in during the election, he rolled over and now tries to promote them to American youth.

Give me fuckin' strength.....how dim are US "liberals"

24 Apr 17 - 05:42 PM (#3852233)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

trust Dave to imply penguins are closet racists

24 Apr 17 - 06:14 PM (#3852243)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

what's going on in the real world

That's "the real world of alternative facts", yes?

And Tailgunner Joe McCarthy was a real laugh riot, too.

24 Apr 17 - 06:43 PM (#3852250)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Time to drop it, Al.

24 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM (#3852258)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

The enemy of my enemies is not my friend. I think aken has slipped up on that one. "Liberals" can be foolish, but fascists are poison

24 Apr 17 - 09:57 PM (#3852267)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

the election is a two horse race. probably one, if truth be told.

i thought the penguins were a pleasant distraction. obviously not distracting enough.

25 Apr 17 - 02:44 AM (#3852286)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

I Agree Mr McGrath, but "liberals" can also be fascists?

25 Apr 17 - 03:09 AM (#3852288)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I Agree Mr McGrath, but "liberals" can also be fascists?"
Utter nonsense - the terms are contradictory
Your use of the dictionary is agenda driven.
Definition
"liberal
ˈlɪb(ə)r(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
"liberal views towards divorce"
2.
(of education) concerned with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
"the provision of liberal adult education"
synonyms:        wide-ranging, broad-based, general, humanistic
"the provision of liberal adult education"
noun
1.
a person of liberal views.
"a concern among liberals about the relation of the citizen to the state""

Fascism
ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms:        authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.
"this is yet another example of health fascism in action"

You have ben asked to define this ridiculous statement in the past - you refuse and will continue to do so

It is totally the invention of extreme right wingers like Anne Coulter and yourself
Jim Carroll

25 Apr 17 - 05:28 AM (#3852303)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

trust Dave to imply penguins are closet racists

On which planet did that happen?

:D tG

25 Apr 17 - 07:19 AM (#3852317)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

'They look too menacing in their black suits. If they could be forced to wear t-shirts stretched over their beer bellies, SS tattoos and union jack shorts you may be on a winner.'

you virtually accused penguins of goose stepping!
as if an English penguin would that ill bred...

25 Apr 17 - 07:27 AM (#3852320)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

A classic book I read when I was young - 'Penguin Island' by Anatole France
Always meant to look for it again and see if I enjoy it as much as I did
Jim Carroll

25 Apr 17 - 07:28 AM (#3852321)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

There's the penguin that owned a bank ................


The Northern Rock ...Hopper

25 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM (#3852323)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Well Jim, one common example of "liberal fascism" is to categorise anyone who questions the policy of allowing unregulated immigration into one's country as "racism".

You have a whole portfolio of such categorisations which you aim at anyone who dares to contradict your views, or the views of the "liberal" media.

Sometime it does people like you good to be reminded that there are millions, socialist and conservative, who will not accept unreasonable bullshit......because it is deemed politically correct by corrupt politicians or a slavish immoral media.

25 Apr 17 - 07:59 AM (#3852326)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

I thought bread made birds ill anyway. Why does it matter if they are English?

:D tG

25 Apr 17 - 08:07 AM (#3852328)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

I might be inadvertently veering too much for comfort towards UKIP thinking..

But somehow I imagine a defensive line of English Penguins guarding the south east coast against foreign invasion..

Like Dad's Army... 😎

25 Apr 17 - 08:36 AM (#3852339)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

when we have a british penguin we can re-design it along more sensible lines. they need to be bigger...possibly 6ft tall. more versatile in their diet. and good conversationalists. probably labour voters...but not heavy drinkers.

25 Apr 17 - 09:51 AM (#3852355)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

With wheels

25 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM (#3852359)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

I think we're getting into the realms of fantasy there Raggytash...

25 Apr 17 - 10:13 AM (#3852360)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

And stabilisers, to stop us going off the rails!

25 Apr 17 - 01:35 PM (#3852388)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

I think that may be nuns on roller skates.

:D tG

25 Apr 17 - 04:54 PM (#3852414)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

In our area there is an epidemic of "self-congratula-tory syndrome"!!!!!

25 Apr 17 - 05:37 PM (#3852422)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

its a terrible thing that some people are chattering mindlessly about a trivial matter such as the election results, whilst all the time the English Penguin Problem remains unresolved like a ticking time bomb - threatening to undermine the ecosystem of western europe.

25 Apr 17 - 06:11 PM (#3852430)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Tory penguins hog all the best buckets of fish...!!! 😡

26 Apr 17 - 06:00 AM (#3852493)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

its funny how you never see wild seals balancing balls on their nose - just for fun.

26 Apr 17 - 06:05 AM (#3852494)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Do the penguins pinch all the balls?

26 Apr 17 - 06:28 AM (#3852499)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

I speak as I find - I've never had my balls pinched by a penguin.

26 Apr 17 - 10:56 AM (#3852534)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Of course we all know why polar bears don't eat penguins don't we?

D.

26 Apr 17 - 11:14 AM (#3852541)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

All together now ......... because ........

26 Apr 17 - 11:28 AM (#3852544)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

.. drum roll....

26 Apr 17 - 12:10 PM (#3852551)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

they prefer chocolate digestives...?

26 Apr 17 - 04:03 PM (#3852578)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

Actually labels can mean anything in context. The "Liberal Democratic Party of Russia" (Либерально-Демократическая Партия России – Liberal'no-Demokraticheskaya Partiya Ross) is essentially Fascist. The Liberal Party in Australia is essentially their version of the Conservative Party.

27 Apr 17 - 03:19 AM (#3852649)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Absolutely correct Mr McGrath, but "liberalism" is a state of mind, not a Party policy.

27 Apr 17 - 03:23 AM (#3852650)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

See the "liberals" of Berkley uphold the 1st Amendment in relation to Ann Coulter's speech on immigration and conservative values.

27 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM (#3852651)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Or use violence to oppose freedom of speech on the campus.

27 Apr 17 - 03:51 AM (#3852658)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Dave tell them about the Polar Bears and Penguins, it's got to be more entertaining than trying to figure out an explanation of "liberalism" what "liberalism" may mean.

27 Apr 17 - 04:15 AM (#3852661)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Or use violence to oppose freedom of speech on the campus."
Violence is an inevitable, and sometimes welcome response to fascism
If the world had opposed German "freedomn of speech" before they did, WW2 need not have happened
We have laws preventing he Anne Coulters of this world on this side of the pond - are they suppressors of freedom of speech
If you are not a fascist, why do you insist on defending their 'freedom of speech'
""liberalism" is a state of mind, not a Party policy."
And you still refuse to share your personal definition of it.
Insanity gone mad
Jim Carroll

27 Apr 17 - 04:19 AM (#3852663)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

Getting back to the election: i know thwy are always vacuous but do the slogans sound even more lacking in coherence than usual to you? Do anyone think "strong and stable leadership" is inherently a good thing? Might it not be better to ask if it is leading you where you want to go? But no, lets hammer away saying S+SL at every opportunity. Wanting what is best for Britain? Obviously everyone does. Now explain how you deal with cases where the interests of the British citizens and the British businesses are not aligned, which is largely the stuff of the social chapter.

27 Apr 17 - 04:53 AM (#3852669)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

"Now explain how you deal with cases where the interests of the British citizens and the British businesses are not aligned,"

You change the economic system of course, but that is not going to happen any time soon so the one we have must be made to work as well as possible and that means an end to cheap foreign labour, training for our young people, a life on benefits no longer an option compulsory work experience for all school leavers, a new tax system which is seen to be fair, encouraging wealth creation without penalising the very poorest in society, more social housing, more essential services under public control, an end to "Globalisation"......

MOST OF THESE THINGS CANNOT BE PUT INTO PRACICE WHILE WE REMAIN IN THE EU....... Leave immediately!

27 Apr 17 - 04:56 AM (#3852672)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

The social chapter is not worth the paper it is written on if nobody has a f*****g job!

27 Apr 17 - 04:59 AM (#3852673)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

In case it has escaped your attention Akenaton we are leaving the EU.

27 Apr 17 - 05:18 AM (#3852676)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

My comment was meant to be somewhat rhetorical: that's the question I want to see politicians answering. We have our views of course and we should express them but in the end it is the politicians who will decide so it them we need to hear. Instead we have the soundbites and have to guess their action.

Let's take a case like the EU agreed compensation rate for delayed flights. If a passenger is delayed by more than a certain number of hours they can get £600 compensation (as I did recently, which is why I can talk about this example); a similar flight I had in Asia was delated for days with no compensation.

Now that is a scheme that definitely helps consumers who are affected, at a very nominal cost to all the other consumers who are not delayed. However, if a company like BA is cutting out meals on flighta of up to 12 hours to save costs I am sure they would prefer out of the scheme.

So you have a wide range of options but broadly you can boil these down to protect consumers or benefit the business. And I would like some indicarion of the next governments attitudes.

This is of course minutiae in the scheme of things but the overall tradeoffs between citizens-consumers-businesses needs some guiding principles. Instead it is hidden behind the meaningless "Better for Britain" slogan.

27 Apr 17 - 05:29 AM (#3852682)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

More unanswered quesytions Ake - your cowardly refusal to put your money where your extremist mouth is, is beginning to pall
SOMETHING ELSE NOT TO RESPOND TO
And this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/immigration-to-britain-has-not-increased-unemployment-or-reduced-wages-study-finds-10075047.html
(can't blue clicky)
Keep you silence coming - it underlines you agenda-driven dishonesty
Jim Carroll

27 Apr 17 - 07:08 AM (#3852697)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

'In case it has escaped your attention Akenaton we are leaving the EU.'

not really if Corbyn wins. he wants all EU citizens rights in the UK protected and to access the single market.more like brex-back in than brexit!
apparently that's why the fisher folk of Scotland are thinking of voting tory. Whether the tories will break the habit of a lifetime and keep a promise remains to be seen. right now the tories are the only party promising to tell the Spanish factory ships to bugger off.

still no clear policy statements about the penguins...

27 Apr 17 - 07:50 AM (#3852701)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

..they can't get the wrappers off!

I wouldn't worry about ake. He is going to demolish the capitalist system by voting Tory.

Come to think of it, that is a much better joke than mine

:D tG

27 Apr 17 - 08:17 AM (#3852705)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 07:50 AM

..they can't get the wrappers off!
I think I heard that in infant school.
Definitely by the time I left Junior school it had been pointed out that the real reason was that they are indigenous to opposite ends of the earth.

(From Wiki): Penguins are a group of aquatic, flightless birds. They live almost exclusively in the Southern Hemisphere, with only one species, the Galapagos penguin, found north of the equator

27 Apr 17 - 08:27 AM (#3852707)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

"cases where the interests of the British citizens and the British businesses are not aligned"

Interests of the British businesses if harmed affect the British citizens who work for them. British Airways got a mention. They employ over 39,000 people. How many of them do you want put out of work in order that you receive £600 for a delay?

It is the airline, or some form of insurance paid for by the airline that pays out the compensation so where does this nominal cost to all other unaffected consumers come into it at present? As a potential cost to the airline that means compensation burden has to be factored into the price of every ticket sold leading to an increase in price. Is that in the interests of the individual?

27 Apr 17 - 08:40 AM (#3852711)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

How many BA staff do I want to put put of work for my compensation? None, obviously. But how many will I put out of work by choosing to fly with an EU airline rather than BA when I have the choice?

But please note I said consumers. Many of these are themselves business representatives whose work is jeorpardised if they do not get the the meetings on time. What the compensation does in practice is alter the price point where it is more economic to cancel or continue the flight. And that affects not only BA but all the business folk they are carrying at the time.

But you miss the main point. Europe has one model. Asia has a different model, which is basically let everyone book and make plans then cancel the flight without compensation if it would not be cost effective for the airline - and to hell with any other business impaced. BOTH models work, in their own way. The point is there is a choice and would like some way of predicting what the future will be.

27 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM (#3852714)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

..anyway.. in my proposed manifesto...

All air flight journeys will be phased out and replaced by cycling..

A network of intercontinental trans oceanic cycle paths will reinvigorate the construction industry.

Annual holiday leave will need to be extended by months or years depending on the planned holiday route.

A Vote for the 2 Wheels and Buckets of Sweat Party will stimulate the Britain's arse muscles... ✔


Remember, save water - share a bath with a penguin...

27 Apr 17 - 08:47 AM (#3852715)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: RTim

Vote Labour - Kick out the Tories!!!

Tim Radford

27 Apr 17 - 09:00 AM (#3852718)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

Remember not to shower with a polar bear

27 Apr 17 - 09:23 AM (#3852724)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Vote Labour - Kick out the Tories!!!"
Gladly Tim, but ony if they stop fpresenting a watered down Tory programme
Otherwise, what's the point - the Tories do Toryism better
'Support Corbyn's socialist policies', seems a better slogan
Has anybody examined Mayfly's proposed 'make the retired pay' pension changes yet - creepy
Voluntary euthanasia next
HORSE'S MOUTH CONFIRMATION
Jim Carroll

27 Apr 17 - 12:20 PM (#3852740)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Definitely by the time I left Junior school it had been pointed out that the real reason was that they are indigenous to opposite ends of the earth.

Errr, that is the whole point, Nigel. Everyone is tempted to say because they are at different poles but then...

Oh, never mind. ake's joke is still better.

Go on then Raggy, I'll go for it.

Why not?

Better be worth it or the joke police may visit

:D tG

27 Apr 17 - 12:33 PM (#3852743)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Jim, I have a rather taxing life to attend to, I do not have the time or inclination to continually refute your wild theories on my political and social positions.
Basically I do not give a flying fuck what you think of me, you know nothing about me and your opinions are so wide of the mark as to be completely inconsequential.

Don't think for a minute that my failure to engage in any of your diatribes signifies anything other than the fact that I have more important things to do than chew the fat with a conspiracy theorist.

27 Apr 17 - 01:43 PM (#3852752)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I do not have the time or inclination to continually refute your wild theories"
More dishonesty Ake
How long does it take to give a definition?
The truth is you are totally unable or unwilling to back up your unbelievably reactionary and inhuman statements
If you have more important things to do, go and do them - if you don't have the time to participate in debate on a debating forum - don't
Another thing to ignore
Not so long ago I made a somewhat tasteless joke about assassinating Trump - your reaction (as someone with no time on your hands) was to scream for the moderators and demand that such statements should not be allowed
Now here you are defending the rights of one of America's most toxically extreme political commentators to "free speech" after it has been pointed out that she proposed that Trump's "liberal" opponents should be poisoned.
Why is my right to free speech less important than hers - do I have to start sleeping with the Klan before I can say how I feel about Trump - or is it the old Orwellian thing about some animals being more equal than others ?
Jim Carroll

27 Apr 17 - 07:15 PM (#3852819)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

So how do you like Katie Hopkins, aken? Closest we've got to Ann Coulter in the UK.

27 Apr 17 - 10:12 PM (#3852831)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

Please KEEP her in the UK, Kevin. Coulter's more than we need over here.

28 Apr 17 - 04:02 AM (#3852858)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

There were some quite good comments on Qiestion Time last night but the best was a remark early on from an audience member that he had bet his wife a few pounds the Tory representative would say "stablr and secure" and "coalition of chaos" the first time he was given an opportunity to speak. Sure enough, he won his bet.

All elections are serious: the decisions taken affect people lives for years. This time it is even more critical than usual. It is unacceptable to have the whole things driven by empty slogans.


So i propose we buy air horns and give them a blast every time any party just trots out its slogans. I want a serious discussion and if that's what it takes to point the party is not thinking, we should do it.

28 Apr 17 - 05:03 AM (#3852861)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Good morning Mr McGrath, Miss Hopkins seems to be trying to duplicate Miss Coulter, but without quite so much cruel wit.

I thought someone as "droll" as yourself would appreciate Miss Coulter?    :0)

28 Apr 17 - 06:52 AM (#3852868)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I thought someone as "droll" as yourself would appreciate Miss Coulter?"
Mac isn't a fascist
Jim Carroll

28 Apr 17 - 08:20 AM (#3852871)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

It's all right Jim, I was talking about wit and irony, something that you obviously have no understanding of.

28 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM (#3852874)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

That's the thing about penguins.

You can be an Emperor without having imperialist ambitions
You won't find a penguin calling himself Il Duce , or goose stepping.
No snappy newsbyte catchphrases like 'coalescence of codfish' 'an ignominy of igloos', 'a chaos of kayaks'....a blizzard of Blairites'...simply wouldn't happen

28 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM (#3852876)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

" A blight of Blairites" mair like! :0(

28 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM (#3852883)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"It's all right Jim, I was talking about wit and irony,"
She's a fascist half wit not the serious journalist you first claimed her to be
Her with is about on the level of Tommy Tiernan or Bernard Manning

This is "funny"??
"LITTLE ROCK, Ark. – Conservative commentator Ann Coulter, speaking at a traditionally black college, joked that Justice John Paul Stevens should be poisoned."

or this
JEWS NEED TO BE PERFECTED
After a 2009 appearance on Donny Deutsch's show "The Big Idea," Coulter suffered a public backlash when she remarked that Jews would be "perfected" once they became Christians. Not only did Deutsch, a Jew, tell Coulter that he found her remark offensive, Jewish groups accused her of anti-Semitism. "Ms. Coulter's assertion that Jews are somehow religiously imperfect smacks of the most odious anti-Jewish sentiment," said American Jewish Committee President Richard Sideman.

"OUR BLACKS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS"
During an appearance on "The Sean Hannity Show" in 2011, Coulter discussed then Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain. She criticized liberals for overlooking Cain's strengths because "all they see is a conservative black man," she said. "That's why our blacks are so much better than their blacks. To become a black Republican you don't just roll into it. You're not going with the flow. You have fought against probably your family members, probably your neighbors, you have thought everything out and that's why we have very impressive blacks in our party."

Coulter's repeated use of the possessive "our" raised eyebrows. Her phrasing seemed to indicate that blacks were property of some sort rather than unique individuals. Neither the Democratic Party nor the GOP owns African Americans, after all.

IMMIGRATION IS AKIN TO GENOCIDE
In a 2007 column called "Bush's America: Roach Motel," Coulter essentially likened immigration into the United States to white genocide.

She did so while criticizing George W. Bush's amnesty plan for immigrants.

"The Census Bureau recently estimated that whites already account for less than two-thirds of the population and will be a minority by 2050," Coulter states. "…One may assume the new majority will not be such compassionate overlords as the white majority has been. If this sort of drastic change were legally imposed on any group other than white Americans, it would be called genocide. Yet whites are called racists merely for mentioning the fact that current immigration law is intentionally designed to reduce their percentage in the population."

Remind me again about what you said about my joking about Trump being assassinated

She is a nasty, unoriginal racist and you are no different wit your "cuthroat Muslims"
Jim Carroll

28 Apr 17 - 09:39 AM (#3852885)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

Cruel "wit", Ake? Surely you meant to type "witlessness".

29 Apr 17 - 03:32 AM (#3852971)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

As part of your Nationwide search for Fascists Jim, perhaps you would like to pronounce on the treatment of the Isle of Wight MP Andrew Turner who was set up for a media witch hunt over his personal views on homosexuality and forced to withdraw his candidacy.
The guy was asked directly on his views on a "Gay Pride" proposal and answered that he did not agree with promotion as he personally viewed homosexuality as "wrong" and "dangerous"

Very many people view homosexuality as wrong, the Christian and Islamic religions for example.   Anyone who has examined the health figures for male homosexuals would see the practice as extremely dangerous.......Fascism is alive and well amongst the "liberal" left it seems.   
Link

29 Apr 17 - 03:59 AM (#3852973)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

What's in your closet Ake?

29 Apr 17 - 04:36 AM (#3852976)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"As part of your Nationwide search for Fascists Jim"
Sorry - don't get your point and I don't suppose you have the bottle to enlighten me
The feller is obviously just an intolerant twat as you are, but what has fascism got to do with it.
Anybody who claims a natural state of being or many millions of people, now fully accepted under law, is obviously not fit to take responsible office - he is, as you re a "queer-basher" without the bottle to go bashing, so he uses his position in society to do the job for him
You are a fascist because of your support for dictators and mass murderers
You are a Racist because of your mass hatred of foreigners and their culture
You are an intolerant bigot because of your refusal to accept a normal state of being in a significant percentage of human beings on this planet
Different states of mind - different designations to identify those states of mind - go buy a dictionary instead of hiding behind your own gobbledegook
Homosexuality is a natural fact and it is evil to persecute people because of their sexuality, whoever does so.
You single out Muslims, carefully forgetting the attitude of large sections of the Christian Church who would condemn millions of their followers to eternal hell fire and damnation for exactly the same thing
It was well within our lifetimes that homosexuality was a crime in Britain - they didn't start to decriminalise it until 1967 - one of our great war heroes, Alan Turin, was chemically castrated for not conforming to your narrow-minded set of ethics   
And you link confirms you have no intention of changing your view -
What do you propose to do about hetroos with sexually transmitted diseases - euthanase them out of harms way?
How about those carrying genetic defects - compulsory sterelisation?
THE WORLD HAS BEEN HERE BEFORE
You are one sick, spooky individual - and you dare question my sanity!!
Jim Carroll

29 Apr 17 - 04:53 AM (#3852979)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

A simple question Ake - no response forthcoming, no doubt
What is your 'final solution' to homosexuality?
Jim Carroll

29 Apr 17 - 09:01 AM (#3852996)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

"Very many people view homosexuality as wrong, the Christian and Islamic religions for example."

.. yes.. the irrational domineering views of religions have been tolerated and abided by saner reasonable humanity
for far too long... 😣 😜

29 Apr 17 - 09:17 AM (#3852997)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

You are all missing the point, Mr Turners views are not illegal millions of people share them. Denying the right of free speech is Fascist.

29 Apr 17 - 09:27 AM (#3852999)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Mr Turner is a Christian, the Christian Church quite legally defines homosexuality as "wrong".....I think the promotion of homosexuality, as in "Gay Pride" demonstrations, is wrong on health and societal grounds.
We are both entitled to our views, views that are shared by many millions of people.......to deny that entitlement is Fascist.

Additionally, by reading the link and listening to the young woman who was interviewed on BBC radio this morning, it is evident that the whole incident was set up by activists.

Mr Turner either had to renounce his principles or be hung for them....Fascism.

29 Apr 17 - 09:28 AM (#3853000)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash

29 Apr 17 - 09:31 AM (#3853001)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

... and countless millions of people used to be convinced the world was flat
and ships could drop of the edges if they sailed too close...

Millions of people today believe silicon fake tits are more attractive and desirable than real natural breasts..

.. go figure...?????? 🙄

29 Apr 17 - 09:33 AM (#3853002)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

Well, for those who are more interested such things, the EU guidelines have just been agreed and signed off as their united stance, in less than a minute. I find them remarkably clear and to the point, unlike the UK White Paper setting out the guidelines on our side, which is, in my view, full of 'Barnum' statements which mean whatever you happen to wish them to do.

29 Apr 17 - 09:38 AM (#3853003)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

To tell you the truth Ake..

there are so many contentious issues that i personally couldn't give a monkey's
about getting worked up and stubborn over...

I have gracefully accepted the doctrine of benign indifference...

..unless other people's firms convictions are so unjustifiable and ridiculous / dangerous
I can't resist the urge to point it out assertively via the traditional medium of piss taking... 😜

29 Apr 17 - 10:01 AM (#3853008)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

"countless millions of people used to be convinced the world was flat" - MYTH - a modern misconception since the 6th century BC the Greeks knew and could prove conclusively that the Earth was spherical NOT flat.

29 Apr 17 - 10:04 AM (#3853009)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Yeah... so clever clogs...

what about all the countless millions before the 6th Century BC.. ??? 🙄

29 Apr 17 - 10:10 AM (#3853010)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

.. unless you are saying that progressions in human intellect and ideas can positively disprove previously deeply believed myths and fallacies..???


ahem.. cough... religious intolerance.. cultural prejudices... ???

fair do's then Teri... 😎

29 Apr 17 - 10:20 AM (#3853014)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

I was discussing this a few days ago. It is more subtle and interesting than that. As far as we can tell, Every society that sails is aware the earth is curved, so they knew the earth was not flat probably as far back as awareness of surroundings goes. By the 6thBC it was not simply a matter of "knowing the earth was round" it had been measured. But there is an easily overlooked quirk in this. They knew for certain the earth was not flat. But they essentially just assumed it was spherical because it was a common shape. As an interesting thought experiment can you propose an experiment which you as an individual could carry out (ie not relying on satellite images etc) whereby you could demonstrate the earth was round rather than any other curved shape like a grape or dimpled like a golfball or a conic section. It is obvious because of mountaons that the earth is not a mathematical sphere so we also have to decide when we call 'more or less round' just 'round'.





And then we can talk about elections.

29 Apr 17 - 10:21 AM (#3853015)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron

punkfolkrocker wrote: Yeah... so clever clogs...

what about all the countless millions before the 6th Century BC.. ??? 🙄

At some point before the 6th C BC there was less than one million humans on the planet. Diminishing returns. Also any one who goes off shore in a boat knows the surface of the earth is curved. Stuff comes over the horizon.

29 Apr 17 - 10:28 AM (#3853016)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Yeah.. elections.. Tough one..

"The Progressive Penguins Party".. or "The Reflatten the World and turn it into a Jigsaw Party"...??? 🤔

29 Apr 17 - 10:32 AM (#3853017)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

oh.. I just noticed the typo.. I actually meant

"Quite a few people actually believed countless millions of people used to be convinced the world was flat"


bah.. smug arse pedants... [bet most of them vote tory...???] 😜

29 Apr 17 - 10:43 AM (#3853018)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Btw.. I live in a part of the UK mired in tory safe seats...

Round here discussions about the election are futile and depressing...

All we can do is observe the vile tory propaganda machine
perniciously at work in the nation's sound bite mass media...

THe only option is a pained decision to perhaps vote tactically again for those treacherous Liberals... 😠

29 Apr 17 - 11:05 AM (#3853020)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

Am i a smug arsed pedant? I will fetch a mirror.. *smile* or ask a friend? "Bit of odd request but can you see a sort of smile in there?" Maybe I won't bother.

The tory question is easier. I'm a Labour supporter by inclination and a current member. I have voted for other parties sometimes because we vote for candidates not parties. Occasionally one of The Other Side is   superior in some way, especially if they have some specific interest. Even though Labour has not announced its candidate in this constituency yet that is unlikely to be a problem as my current (Tory) MP was outed as 'the laziest mp' in Feb of this year by the Independent. He basically juat shrugged.

I do not, and never have, knowingly voted for a penguin.

29 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM (#3853022)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

... though perhaps I should add that on the current showing there could be a lot of parrots in the chamber after June

29 Apr 17 - 11:13 AM (#3853023)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Mr Turner is a Christian,"
I assume that's supposed to be a recommendation
The church is an archaic reactionary body which is rapidly being reduced to what it should always have been - a spiritual guide consulted voluntarily
The Christina church in England is a standing joke - it's what they put down on the form when you tell them you are an atheist
It's blood-soaked history makes Islamic extremism look positively liberal
"the Christian Church quite legally defines homosexuality as "wrong"..
The Christian church has no standing in Law - it has no right to decalre anything "evil" - particularly a perfectly natural state of being.
Try telling the generations of kids whose lives were ruined by being raped aand abused - sexually and physically, by clerics who were supposing to teach them right from wrong - that the church's pronouncements on sex makes any sense.
The same Christian church not only tolerated and facilitated the rape of children, but the Vatican still keeps the details of those centuries of rape closely guarded so their crimes will never be known.
Saying homosexuality is wrong is like demanding punishment for writing with your "wrong" hand
"Mr Turners views are not illegal
Not yet they're not, but hopefully it's not too long before society pronounces "gender hatred" as much a crime as race hatred
Are you for real?
Come back Ian Paisley -all is forgiven!!
This is Jurassic Park writ large
Un- fucking - believable!!
Bring back the ducking stool, I say
Jim Carroll

29 Apr 17 - 11:23 AM (#3853024)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

And they would be? Certainly not of any relevance.

29 Apr 17 - 11:35 AM (#3853026)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

the Christian Church quite legally defines homosexuality as "wrong"

Depending what you mean by wrong defining homosexuality as such could well be in breech of both equality and hate speech laws. So the Christian church or anyone else are probably not acting legally if that is what they are really saying. I suspect ake has his facts wrong, his knickers in a twist or a mixture of both. But WTF this has to do with homosexuality, apart from ake's preoccupation with anal sex, is beyond me.

DtG

29 Apr 17 - 11:36 AM (#3853027)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

What this THREAD has to do with homosexuality is what I should have put.

Mea culpa

D.

29 Apr 17 - 12:21 PM (#3853031)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

I've just had a great idea whilst sat on the bog...

Howsabout a new 21st Century electoral system whereby our individual vote
is no longer confined to the territorial boundaries of our home address constituency...???

Where we can vote online and transfer our vote
to a marginal seat where our favoured party might stand a fair chance of winning..
where every extra vote really would count...!!!

Might shake things up a bit...

Of course, that will never happen.. but we can still dream positive things whilst sat on the crapper..

My mum has voted labour every election for getting on 60 years, and afaik sadly never seen a single win round here in deepest darkest Toryshire..

..even she is wondering whether to bother this time now she's 85...

29 Apr 17 - 12:38 PM (#3853032)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

..actually more than 60 years...

She was even a member of some kind of labour youth activist group when she was a teenager
in the town here she's lived in ever since the war...

So if anyone knows anything about futile struggle against the entrenched tories.. that's my old mum.. 😍

29 Apr 17 - 12:47 PM (#3853033)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

There are lots of ways the voting system could be improved. Back in the days of the alternative vote campaign I pointed to all and sundry that it enabled the Tories to put up a pro and anti EU candidate in the same constituency, the vote would NOT be split because at most one would be eliminated in any round and all votes would go to the other. Solved: the Tories long term EU internal conflict, no need for a referendum and if the people wanted to leave the EU the ordinary election mechanism would arrange it; if not it wouldn't. And nothing hanging on dodgy promises - or no more than a normal election anyway.

Still, it meant the centre didn't keep control of the power (pause for suppressed laughter) so the 'against' campaign decided to go with "it's all too complicated". The 'for' compaign was so incoherent I am not sure what message they were trying for. And so we end up here....

29 Apr 17 - 12:56 PM (#3853034)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Especially for Nigel Parsons -

Poorest pay higher taxes than richest, new figures show

This section confirms exactly what I have been trying to tell you!

Council tax and VAT were found to hit the poorest households particularly hard. Low earners pay an average of seven per cent of their income in council tax while the wealthiest households pay just 1.5 per cent.

A similar trend applies to VAT, on which the poor pay 12.5 per cent of their income while the rich pay five per cent.


See - Not just me :-)

DtG

29 Apr 17 - 05:04 PM (#3853047)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

its mot a sin to vote for transexual penguins....however the   predjudice remains....

29 Apr 17 - 07:14 PM (#3853053)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

The repeated use of the expression "strong and stable government" in this election is interesting. In fact it's chilling.

That was the very phrase used in the same repeated way in the rise of fascism, as cited in numerous accounts of that period.

"Mussolini and Fascism promised a strong stable government and an end to the political fighting."

It's also noteworthy that in Mussolini's rhetoric at least there was often far more venom against "liberals" than against Communists - "I know the Communists. I know them because some of them are my children…". "Tomorrow, Fascists and communists, both persecuted by the police, may arrive at an agreement, sinking their differences until the time comes to share the spoils. I realise that though there are no political affinities between us, there are plenty of intellectual affinities."

29 Apr 17 - 10:11 PM (#3853061)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

still you can't ban the use of strong and stable - unfair to horses.

30 Apr 17 - 01:21 AM (#3853065)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

When viewing what the alternative that the likes of Corbyn would cobble together as a "government", I see nothing wrong with the Conservatives persistence in promoting themselves as the only party that can deliver a strong and stable government - nothing sinister in that at all, they are merely stating the truth. Let's face it in almost two years Corbyn hasn't even been able to put together an effective "opposition".

30 Apr 17 - 02:45 AM (#3853068)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"The repeated use of the expression "strong and stable government" in this election is interesting. In fact it's chilling."
Couple this with the rise of the extreme right in Europe and America and you realise we're heading for a new Ice-Age, Brexit being the first floe to move.
Corbyn probably doesn't stand a chance as things are, but there is little value in Labour victory if all we end up with is more of the same.
The system is broken and needs fixing - if it isn't, it's back to political barbarism - the right will have succeeded where Hitler failed and this time they will have the Muslims instead of the Jews as a scapegoat.
"Mussolini and Fascism promised a strong stable government and an end to the political fighting."
Don't think they'll even be able to promise that the trains will run on time, this time
Jim Carroll

30 Apr 17 - 03:36 AM (#3853069)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

An excellent post Mr McGrath, one which deserves a thread all of its own.

My only reservation is that shifting quotations into different timeframes often be obstructive to debate.

30 Apr 17 - 03:44 AM (#3853070)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

If we really want to change...or even try to "fix" the system it is imperative that we remove ourselves from the system's biggest and most undemocratic club.

Mrs May seems to be the only politician determined to do that, the rest are simply jockeying for scraps of political power, to serve their own agendas.

30 Apr 17 - 03:57 AM (#3853072)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

You don't really know that ake.
After all she was pro Remain in the referendum.
You'd be crazy to trust a politician for what they're saying this week.

30 Apr 17 - 04:01 AM (#3853073)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"If we really want to change...or even try to "fix" the system it is imperative that we remove ourselves from the system's biggest and most undemocratic club."
Britain is now incapable of standing on its own two feet
It has no industry to become self sufficient so Brexit was merely a change of who we would have to rely on.
The decision was taken on a natio/racist myth that foreigners were taking our jobs - the immediate effects were a rapid increase in racists incidents.
Like Ukip - it was a one objective programme.
The oldest ploy of a failing administration is to find a scapegoat - immigrants, and Jews have become favourites.
Get us at each other's throats and they can contiue feathering their own nests without interference.
"Mrs May" is a wannabe Thatcher without the charisma
Jim Carroll

30 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM (#3853077)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

There are at least two things wrong with the "strong and stable government". Firstly, as McGrath pointed out, being a strong government may or may not be a good thing for its citizens and the long term future of the country. Every one of us can name at least three strong and stable governments we would want nothing whatsoever to do with. Strength is not a good thing in itself, it is all about what you do with that strength. We may find out when the manifestos are issued, or we may not.

Secondly, when any phrase is used as an alternative to thinking it is extremely dangerous. Blairism was full of such things, and I don't think you will find any defenders of Blair on this forum. We are entering a long period where careful thought is crucial. Many are focusing on the next two years; I would say the 5 years afterwards are probably more important, as we go through the regulations brought under UK law by the Repeal Act and decide which to keep, to modify and to scrap. As my little discussion with Teribus shows, it is dreadfully easy to scrap a regulation because you can see an industry would be better off without it, without being aware that in doing so you inflict a much greater harm on other businesses. We cannot afford to make those kind of mistakes.

So let's try a little thought experiment. May has been absolutely clear that in the case of the EU 'a bad deal for Britain is worse than no deal' and that she will walk away if the deal is bad. Ok, we will take her at her word. She would like a deal with the US. Will she say the same - walk away from a US deal if the terms are not good enough. If she won't say, have no doubt Trump will smell weakness and push. Trump, whatever else he is, is a highly experienced dealmaker and well used to getting his own way. Does anyone at all believe May can force Trump to do anything he is not prepared to do already?

So let's instead assume May is 'strong and stable' enough to walk away because she does not believe the deal in in the UK interests. Great, we have no EU trade deal and no US trade deal. Now everyone else in the world smells our desperation.

As a certain well known figure would put it: Bad!

30 Apr 17 - 04:42 AM (#3853079)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

What a choice eh...???
More of the same shite tory government..
or an unelectable weakened labour opposition that has been mercilessly undermined, destabilised and marginalised
by persistent poisonous right wing propaganda...

..and that's not forgetting the contribution of the selfish Scots Nationalists victory
virtually guaranteeing a perpetual tory domination of our tiny islands...

30 Apr 17 - 05:04 AM (#3853080)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Let's just get this election over with and out the way, struggle through the brexit debacle, say bye bye to Scotland if we must,
then look forward to the next general election;
by which time labour might have regrouped, got some semblance of unity
and demonstrable winning sense of purpose... ???????

30 Apr 17 - 05:16 AM (#3853081)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

a wannabe Thatcher...?
wannabe Blair...?

At least those people understood the first rule of the game, which is to get elected.

wanna win three elections...that's a hell of a smear. You could never accuse JC of that. he wants to be a 'principled opposition'...I think you told us that was the aim last week, jim.

30 Apr 17 - 06:03 AM (#3853085)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I think you told us that was the aim last week, jim."
Never mentioned 'opposition' Al
Being there in the present set-up only benefits career politicians
No party is worth anything unless it fights on an alternative to what is happening - sitting on their thumbs and waiting for the next election only perpetuates the system
Unless Corbyn, or whoever, fights on a genuinely alternative policy, they may as well concentrate their energies on reforming the party and getting rid of the dross.
That is the ticket on which Corbyn won the leadership - now he has to make his policies realities.
Today's parliament is little more than an exclusive club - as one of the Ealing comedy characters once said, "it was either that or the church".
I'm rapidly coming around to teh old Anarchist slogan, "Don't vote for any of them - it only encourages them".
Do you really think another Blair, Brown or Wilson - elected or not - will make the slightest difference to the rest of us??
Jim

30 Apr 17 - 06:52 AM (#3853092)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Teribus, what evidence have you got that the Tories will be "strong and stable?" In the last two years they have endured a referendum result that they neither remotely expected nor remotely wanted, having been forced into the vote by their fear of a racist party and their own right wing, they have lost their leader in consequence, replaced him with a remainer who has immediately changed her spots, totally screwed up the last budget in the clumsiest possible way and cynically inflicted an opportunist election on us only two years into the parliament in spite of being the architects of a fixed-term parliament system only a few short years ago. On top of all that they are presiding over the disintegration of the NHS, have devastated school budgets and are utterly clueless about what to do about a care system that's rapidly going to hell in a handcart. Oh yes, plenty of signs of strength, stability and dependability there!

30 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM (#3853098)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Interesting. Dr Andrew Watt, a retired doctor from Glasgow, is of the opinion that Section 2 of the European Union Act 2011 (a UK law) requires a second referendum on brexit once any deal has been agreed. He's put the matter to Theresa May and will likely start legal action if she responds adversely within the next couple of weeks. I read it in the Indy so google it as I can't do links.

30 Apr 17 - 08:57 AM (#3853102)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

it makes a lot of difference.
i guess you just have to be in the right places to see the difference.

my wife became disabled out of the blue when she was 26.
the tories do people down at the bottom of society. the labour party - less so.

even when they spend money on a public service - the tories find some way of looting the system, and diverting money away from the frontline - in this way they take care of their backers. fund holding gp's and the national curriculum in schools were great examples of this.

most of my life i have voted for thoroughly decent men... Foot, KInnock, Brown...and now Corbyn. and only Wilson and Blair have had the venality to embrace the realities of the English political system and make it work for the poor people.

that's why i feel nothing but contempt for the forces within the labour party that go on about blairite scum. they are intent on abandoning the poor to the tender mercies of the tories - just for the satisfaction of playing mr. nice guy - offering largesse to everyone in the firm belief that none of their cheques will be cashed, none of their promises held to account.

The present tory policies are some of the most noxious right crap ever to be offered to the electorate. However they have an ace in the hole. A presentable leader.

30 Apr 17 - 09:07 AM (#3853103)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

It isn't so much that there's a section of Labour lamenting "Blairite scum." It's more the problem of those so-called Blairites briefing against Corbyn, refusing to support him or serve in the shadow cabinet and perpetuating a lethal rift in the party. They know the election is probably lost and they want him gone. That's a rotten tactic. They are not playing to win.

30 Apr 17 - 09:35 AM (#3853105)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

I think, given the events of the last year or so, it would be unwise to say anyone is unelectable. The general public does not like being ordered around and it seems me that there is very strong back - pedalling on the use of the 'strong and stable' slogan. Andrew Marr challenged her on how robotic it makes everyone sound and forced her to defend it. I strongly suspect it won't appear on campaign literature that has still to be printed.

Being miles behind in the polls isnt great, but a gradual narrowing could be an exciting story to tell and an occasional two or three point jump even more so.

Chicken counting before they have hatched is not wise. But you shouldnt assume they are dead either.

30 Apr 17 - 10:19 AM (#3853106)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

Mrs May seems to be the only politician determined to ["fix" the system]

Just like Trump, right? Please.

30 Apr 17 - 10:30 AM (#3853108)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Until Brexit is achieved, strong and stable is what is required.
It is my opinion that at some point we will be forced to walk away and construct new trade deals on a world stage. The sooner the better! pussyfooting around trying to pick the pieces we want will never be allowed by a cartel who are desperate to save their money trough.

Flooding our country with impoverished people to prop up our economy is immoral. We need a new start, a new value system with less emphasis on financial aspiration.

30 Apr 17 - 10:35 AM (#3853109)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

give it a rest Ake - you have no more idea of what Brexit will mean than anyone else - and seeing as a tory is bringing it in, watch your arses!

30 Apr 17 - 10:37 AM (#3853110)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

Good article , in my opinion, on whether strong ans stable is desirable and what it means. Your views may vary.

30 Apr 17 - 10:50 AM (#3853111)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

Another blow to Brexit has been Trumps intention to put Europe before the U.K. as far as trade deals
One of the claimed benefits of a Trump victory was that Britain would benefit rather than Europe - not going to happen.
Strong and stable in the present situation means, as always, that the less well off will have to bera the brunt to keep the better off in the manner to which they have become accustoms
More pie in the sky, in other words
I've never come accross a "socialist" who puts in so much time and effort into defending the wealthy
Jim Carroll

30 Apr 17 - 11:06 AM (#3853113)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)

May beginning to unravel on Marr's programme. Like a good little establishment soldier he tried his best to cover for her. But I hope that people will be beginning to see through her. "Strong and Stable", thats going to come back to bite her on the backside.

30 Apr 17 - 11:07 AM (#3853114)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Mr Putin almost singlehandedly has given the Russian people back a pride in their country.

After the capitulation of the Soviet Union Russia had become a bad joke. Now President Putin is one of the most popular leaders ever in Russia.

30 Apr 17 - 11:18 AM (#3853115)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

Strong and stable like

Being in Europe is the best thing
Oh, hang on...

I am not going to call a general election
Oh, hang on...

:D tG

30 Apr 17 - 12:15 PM (#3853122)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

There is not a scrap of evidence that the Tories deserve the accolade "strong and stable."

30 Apr 17 - 01:03 PM (#3853126)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Well, Teribus, what evidence have you got that the Tories will be "strong and stable?"

After the mess left by the last UK Labour government they have taken an economy that was heading down the pan and transformed it into one of the best performing economies in the western world, despite all the "doom'n'gloom" predictions during the recent EU referendum.

"In the last two years they have endured a referendum result that they neither remotely expected nor remotely wanted, having been forced into the vote by their fear of a racist party and their own right wing"

In the last three years they've had to endure two referendums of immense importance and impact on the United Kingdom (Scottish Independence Referendum and the EU Referendum). The former they agreed to on request by the political party governing Scotland - the answer given by the electorate of Scotland was that they wished to remain as part of the United Kingdom, the SNP, the party governing Scotland declared at the time that this was a "once in a generation" referendum but within days of them not getting the result they sought changed their minds on that (Gnome please take note, leaders of all political parties change their minds as and when they deem it necessary). Situation is now that polls strongly indicate that any second Indy Ref in Scotland would result in an even bigger NO vote and that only 1 in 4 want a second Indy Ref. Unfortunately this paints Sturgeon into a corner as she has put the matter before the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood and they voted for a second Indy Ref that they now have to deliver or lose an enormous amount of credibility.

The other referendum on membership of the EU was actually promised the electorate of the UK by Gordon Brown in response to sovereign powers being handed over to Brussels and the EU Commission under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty. Didn't come to anything as at least three other EU member states rucked up by voting against it (The French in May 2005, the Dutch in June 2005 and the Irish in June 2008) so the EU Commission in cahoots with the likes of Brown fudged by renaming the Treaty and massaged it into existence via technicalities in 2009. In the 2010 election the Conservatives promised a referendum on EU Membership in their election manifesto, this promise foundered when the Conservatives failed to win an outright majority and had to form a coalition with the Liberal-Democrats who insisted that the EU referendum promise be dropped. There was quite rightly an outcry against this, but the bullet had to be bitten as anything was better than a Labour Government and everyone realised this. In 2015 the promise to hold a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU was in the Conservative Party election manifesto and as they won an overall majority the election promise was honoured and the EU referendum originally promised by Gordon Brown was delivered to the electorate of the UK - no forcing about it. The result of this referendum and the judgement of the electorate of the UK was to LEAVE the EU.

"they have lost their leader in consequence, replaced him with a remainer who has immediately changed her spots"

As the leader of the Government and also leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron had no other alternative apart from resignation when the electorate of the UK voted to leave the EU. The Conservative Party then elected a new leader and made a far better job of it than did the Labour Party in their 2015 leadership election. Irrespective of being a "Remainer" May was considered to be the best leader to carry things forward internationally and domestically by her Party and she honoured the wishes of the electorate to leave the EU by triggering Article 50, which she has successfully done.

totally screwed up the last budget in the clumsiest possible way and cynically inflicted an opportunist election on us only two years into the parliament in spite of being the architects of a fixed-term parliament system only a few short years ago.

Faced with emboldened rebels in her own Party and as you say a "screwed up budget" (Hammond's fault), along with jibes from the SNP at Westminster that she (May) had no personal endorsement or mandate to lead anything May exercised her right to call a General Election and got the backing of Parliament to do so. She did this at a time when all opposition parties are in total chaos - not bad judgement on her part then? Plus all the boxes ticked if the Conservatives win on 9th June, which all those in the know reckon they will:

1 - The tory rebels silenced
2 - The opportunity to sort the budget shambles out by next autumn
3 - "Wee Nippy" up in Edinburgh silenced

On the other stuff?

The NHS has always been "disintegrating", I've never known a time that it wasn't irrespective of how much money or resources are thrown at it. The care system is and has to be part and parcel of this in conjunction with the citizens of this country who believe it or not do have responsibilities to themselves and to their families.

Same goes for education although I think the present government are on the right track.

Oh yes, there are plenty of signs of strength, stability in the vital areas that matter for the country as a whole and just think it could be one hell of a lot worse if we had Corbyn and Labour in charge we'd have been knocking on the door of the IMF months ago. Just off-hand I cannot think of a single Labour policy that has been run out that has the endorsement of the Party as a whole - at the moment they cannot even agree on the usual empty rhetoric.

30 Apr 17 - 01:23 PM (#3853129)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

Another blow to Brexit has been Trumps intention to put Europe before the U.K. as far as trade deals.

Now wait just a durn minute, pardner! I thought that's what the Brexit Crusaders blamed OBAMA for and thus favored Trump???

30 Apr 17 - 01:52 PM (#3853134)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome

and just think it could be one hell of a lot worse if we had Corbyn and Labour in charge

I thought you didn't do speculation, Teribus.

:D tG

30 Apr 17 - 02:02 PM (#3853137)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

I should like to remind you of what you are very keen on reminding me about, that we have had a Tory government for just two years. Also, SHE appointed Hammond, and Cameron resigned despite promising that he would stay on even if he lost the referendum, having also vacuously promised to trigger Article 50 the very next day. The Tories andLibDems were the architects of the fixed-term parliament setup which has now been demolished on tbe slightest of opportunist grounds. Your post is a list of excuses. She has called this election so that she'll get, she hopes, a big enough majority of toadies to see off her own right wing. It's all about the Tories and nothing about the best interests of this country. By the way, Labour did a lot of things wrong apropos of the NHS, failing to get to grips with its top-heavy bureaucracy and allowing in creeping privatisation for example, but when they left power there was no massive crisis in A&E departments, no bed-blocking and very little failure to meet 18-week waiting times. By their fruits shall we know them, old chap, but please don't let the facts get in your way on this fine spring day.

30 Apr 17 - 02:41 PM (#3853140)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Three Hundred

30 Apr 17 - 03:03 PM (#3853142)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I thought that's what the Brexit Crusaders blamed OBAMA for and thus favored Trump?"
Go read the latest developments
"if you miss me at the back of the - queue"
When Obama was in charge Britain was still part of Europe
"Now President Putin is one of the most popular leaders ever in Russia."
The most popular leader in Rusdsia was Stalin - by miles
Both were/are POLITICAL THUGS
Hitler was pretty popular
You judge leaders by their records, not their popularity
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll

30 Apr 17 - 03:45 PM (#3853145)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

isn't it just being realistic Steve - we can't carry on like this indefinitely?

unless you believe Corbyn can win.

its a bit the ads for the superman movie - you'll believe a man can fly...

30 Apr 17 - 05:54 PM (#3853160)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Ehmmmm No Shaw my post is not a list of excuses - it largely represents in chronological order a series of facts as opposed to the imagined reasons contained in your rather vapid contribution.

30 Apr 17 - 05:56 PM (#3853161)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jack Campin

This could be important if it turns out to have substance:

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/04/30/theresa-may-under-investigation-re-brexit-profits/

30 Apr 17 - 06:50 PM (#3853165)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Then produce facts to contradict what I've said, Teribus. Sarky comments are easy. Evidence is a whole nother issue.

30 Apr 17 - 07:48 PM (#3853171)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

..and that's not forgetting the contribution of the selfish Scots Nationalists victory
virtually guaranteeing a perpetual tory domination of our tiny islands...

I can see the risk that it could risk a perpetual Tory domination of Southern Britain, but hardly of "our tiny islands" taken as a whole. Scottish independence would initiallu be likely to involve permanent rule on the basis of a relatively small proportion of votes, but I doubt if that would be accepted permanently by the Southern British public. I think it likely that a Scottish secession would trigger bitter anger among many towards the English party seen as primarily responsible for bringing this about, and demands for constitutional reform.

01 May 17 - 11:30 AM (#3853251)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

take the penguins out and it soon gets very boring....

01 May 17 - 12:20 PM (#3853260)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Taking a penguin out can get very boring...

all they want to do is go to sushi restaurants...

05 May 17 - 03:02 AM (#3853367)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

....and they talk a lot of waddle!

06 May 17 - 04:13 AM (#3853485)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

It is absurd to suggest that people voting SNP in Scotland are somehow selfish and to blame for the Tory Party ruling in the UK! When was the last time the election results in Scotland made one iota of difference as to who had a majority in the UK parliament? I suspect it must be at least approaching a half century anyway! Surely the rest of the UK are quite adult and fully capable of choosing their government or voting system?

A post up thread also suggests that "the Scottish gvt" gave a commitment that there would not be another referendum for at least a generation. Despite that being oft repeated it is not actually true.

Salmond as First Minister often used the phrase "once in a generation, perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity" when campaigning for a Yes vote. Saying you may not get this chance again is clearly not the same as promising that you won't ask the question again.

On the Andrew Marr show prior to the referendum Marr pressed Salmond as to if that was a commitment! To which Salmond said it was only his 'personal view' that these opportunities don't come along that often. Vote Yes now or you won't get another chance for a while is not a firm commitment to not ask the question again - it is simply a better campaign tactic than saying "never mind if you vote No now you can change your mind in a year or two".

Likewise Sturgeon as deputy leader during the campaign used the same phrase - but when pressed she included the caveat that though it was her belief that there wouldn't be another vote for a while it did not bind future parliaments or generations. Remember people did tend to think that a No vote would seriously dent the SNP. The two leaders probably did think that if they lost then they wouldn't even have the opportunity to ask the question again at least for a while. No-one predicted that on the back of a No vote the popularity of the SNP would increase and that Labour would plummet in Scotland.

When she became leader the Scottish Tories continually pressed Sturgeon as to under what conditions there could be another vote - so in the 2016 election manifesto the SNP laid it out in black and white and it was repeated often. They would only look at another vote if there was a clear and consistent support for independence in the polls (though not in the manifesto Sturgeon had mentioned a figure of perhaps about 60% support) - or if there was a significant material change to Scotland's position within the UK and the example they gave was if Scotland is dragged out of the EU against the will of the Scottish electorate. Now various people on here may not like, or may not agree with that, but the facts are that the Scottish people gave the SNP a massive mandate in that election. So bringing forth the vote at Holyrood was them keeping an electoral promise.

There was no official government commitment not to have another vote - but there was an actual official commitment by the party in their manifesto to have another vote should certain circumstances arise.

06 May 17 - 05:41 AM (#3853493)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

That's quite true Allan, but I still think that the Party have boxed themselves into a corner by supporting continued membership of an EU which appears to be hanging on an increasingly shoogly peg.

As a nationalist, I feel that it would be better to throw our weight behind Mrs May and try to achieve the best outcome possible for the UK. The pragmatic course of action would be to set up the new trading regime as a member of the UK leaving the Independence issue till a later date when temperatures had cooled or perhaps when the EU itself had disintegrated?

06 May 17 - 05:51 AM (#3853495)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

Leaving the EU is proving an Almighty Fuck-up all round Ake - for everybody
It is now down to damage limitation
Jim Carroll

06 May 17 - 05:54 AM (#3853496)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Everyone is different Ake but sorry I've never voted Tory and that is not likely to change - even though my better half is a Tory voter and even works for them!

06 May 17 - 07:13 AM (#3853503)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Keith A of Hertford

The EU and many in UK want it to be a fuck up.
No reason why it should be.

06 May 17 - 08:16 AM (#3853512)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

Why do you say many people want it to fail? I expect it to, but there is no way I want it to. And the reasons why I think it will fail are well known to all and sundry; we mainly differ in how likely we think the various outcomes are and in the long and short terms effects. But please, do not confuse expections of problwms with a desire to see them.

06 May 17 - 08:45 AM (#3853515)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"No reason why it should be."
Not "should be" Keith - it is
Go look at the rise in racism
Go look at the instability of teh economy
Go look at the problems with Scotland threatening to break up the U.K.
Go look at the massive border problems that have emerged with the border in Northern Ireland
You look at the fact that even Trump has turned his back on Britain and is favouring trade with Europe
Go look at the problems Brits living in Euorpe are facing - especially considering Mayfly's farting around about Europeans living in Britain
It's a mess Keith and both politicians and businessmen are having to come to terms with that fact
One giant, xenophobically-based fuck-up by a minority of the British people who allowed themselves to believe that a country without manufacturing industries could "stand on their own feet" and long as you got rid of the foreigners.
A classic ploy by a system on the skids - blame fsomeone else
Jim Carroll

06 May 17 - 08:48 AM (#3853516)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

"It is absurd to suggest that people voting SNP in Scotland are somehow selfish and to blame for the Tory Party ruling in the UK!"

errrrmmm... not a Scots Nationalist SNP voter by any chance, are you...??? 😜

06 May 17 - 09:06 AM (#3853517)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: bobad

The big question is who does Putin want as PM.

06 May 17 - 09:13 AM (#3853518)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

"liberal" ideology has no connection to the creation of a healthy economy. It is my view that the "remoaners" are by and large driven by such an ideology.....in short they are a fucking menace to themselves an the rest of society.   I have never voted Conservative, but I feel these are very important times for all the countries which comprise the UK. we need to think seriously about the long term effects of using cheap immigrant labour to support our economy instead of investing in our own people.....the time when condemning them to a life on benefits was an option is long past and the next generation will not suffer in silence......perhaps Mr Powell's words would have come back to haunt us all had it not been for the saving grace of The democratic Brexit vote.

Getting back and I MEAN back to the "liberals" who write here like Jim and Co, I am reminded of the famous quote from Miss Ann Coulter.

"If "liberals" were prevented from ever again calling Republicans/conservatives "Dumb", they would be robbed of half their arguments. To be sure they would still have, Racist, Fascist, Homophobe, Ugly and a few other highly nuanced arguments in the quiver...... but the loss of "Dumb" would almost cripple them" :0)

06 May 17 - 09:47 AM (#3853521)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"I have never voted Conservative"
Too left wing, no doubt
Your failure to respond to any of the points is proof enough that you have no answer to them and your consistent 'Ann Coulter' definition of "liberal" places you where you are on the extremist spectrum
Britain can never become self supporting without a manufacturing industry, and all the drowned refugee children in the world won't make that any less a fact.
I'm not in any shape or form a "Liberal" in anything other than my humanist outlook on life.
You on the otehr hand.... well, youv'e already referred to your hatred of homosexuals.
Nothing humanist about that one
Jim Carroll

06 May 17 - 10:21 AM (#3853525)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Yeagh of course I am PFR but honestly the Scots only sent one Tory MP to Westminster. What party the other 58 are makes no difference to the Tory majority as they are all opposition MPs. Likewise all of the Blair/Brown governments had a clear majority of seats in English constituencies. The idea that Labour can't win without Scottish seats is wrong as proved by historical results - and the idea that the English can't be trusted to govern themselves without the help of Scots members is surely daft and a tad insulting to the English public.

06 May 17 - 10:31 AM (#3853530)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

Now that Abbott has proved just what everybody already knew already, that she is a complete idiot, perhaps she might take the hint - but she won't I'm sure!

06 May 17 - 10:38 AM (#3853533)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Allan - tories forever depend and thrive on 'divide and rule' - as simple as that...

A fragmented divisive opposition is forever f@cked - as simple as that...

Scotland has done the tories dirty work of clearing out Labour..
So how long before the tories seize the opportunity to eventually clear out the SNP...???

..what, the pernicious process has already started with that nice young charismatic Ruth Elizabeth Davidson...????? 🙄

06 May 17 - 10:48 AM (#3853536)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.

I am reminded of the famous quote from Miss Ann Coulter.

And regarding Ann Coulter, I am reminded of:

"All this was inspired by the principle — which is quite true within itself— that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods."

                        — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X

06 May 17 - 10:50 AM (#3853538)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Again though do the arithmetic it made no difference to the Tory majority whether the SNP had their 56 Scottish seats or whether Labour had them. As for the clearing out the SNP. Don't believe the hype the SNP actually improved their local election results from last time. They are now the biggest party in all of Scotland's cities and they have more seats in real terms and as a percentage of the total seats than they had last time. Despite what the BBC site is claiming. The Tory gains have come from former Labour voters!

06 May 17 - 11:00 AM (#3853540)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
You to Ake, well, youv'e already referred to your hatred of homosexuals.

Actually he never has.
Again you make false claims about what people have said and never give an actual quote.

Jim, you may think that Bexit is already fucked up but most of the electorate do not.
Do you have access to information that the country does not?

06 May 17 - 11:12 AM (#3853541)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Allan - but it's not just seats and numbers - it's not that simplistic...

Factor in all the constant persistent anti labour rhetoric from Scots & Welsh Nationalists over the last decade,
add that to all the other usual non stop right wing anti labour propaganda bloating in the Nation's media, social internet, and bar room chatter...

..ideological warfare at it's text-book primest example...

Tories are very winningly self satisfied at reaping the harvest of floating voting easily swayed demographics of the UK electorate...

06 May 17 - 11:21 AM (#3853543)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Actually he never has. "
Read what he wrote Keith
"Racist, Fascist, Homophobe, "
Now - let's have an apology - stupid little man!
"but most of the electorate do not"
The majority of "the electorate did not vote for Berexit - a large slice of them didn't bother to vote so claiming "most" if made-up rubbish.
Brexirt was squeezed through on the narrowest of margins and until people get a chance for a second vote we'll never know how that vote will stand the test of time.
Do you have any information the est of us do not have?
Elections don't make up for a fucked up economy, a divided nation and all the other things on my list that you refuse to respond to,
It got through on Xenophobic hatred and the party who put in the most effort to get it through self-destructed almost immediately - probably the only good thing to have come out of the whole farrago (bearing Nigel the Nutter in mind, not a bad word in the circumstances)
If you haven't anything intelligent to say, perhaps you have a brighter relative to post for you!
Jim Carroll

06 May 17 - 12:14 PM (#3853553)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

Hmmm I'm not sure there has been a constant persistant anti-Labour rhetoric from the SNP. Most of their rhetoric is aimed at the Tory Party. Yes there has been some but probably not as bad as the Scottish Labour anti SNP rhetoric. The Labour party in Scotland simply hates the SNP for various things but mostly for being popular and taking their place. Actually the Nats openly said at the last UK election that they would work with the UK Labour Party on matters where they agreed. It was Labour who rebuffed that idea.

06 May 17 - 06:47 PM (#3853587)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow

The SNP have replaced Labour in Scotland. So long as the United Kingdom lasts, that's an Anti-Tory bloc in Westminster as solid as Scottish Labour ever were, and rather more to the left of the Labour MPs they replaced, and well to the left of the anti-Corbyn clique who have been plotting on the backbench during this Parliament.
......
Still a chance in this election, if the majority of people who don't trust the Tories can be panicked into realizing the only thing to do in this election is go out and vote for whatever candidate in their constituency is best placed to beat the Tory. Even if that's a Liberal. Or of course SNP or Plaid Cymru.

06 May 17 - 09:14 PM (#3853603)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

errrrrrrm... but diverse fragmented regional 'Anti-Tory blocs' do not make a coherent unified opposition capable of forming an effective functional government.....??? 🤔


..in some ways I feel like a small child having to remind grown ups that despite being so very clever they have lost sight of the obvious...

07 May 17 - 02:13 AM (#3853612)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Well said PFR. The EU negotiations are much too important for us to start playing childish games.

07 May 17 - 02:47 AM (#3853613)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"The SNP have replaced Labour in Scotland"
A similar thing has happened in Ireland
In order to maintain some hold as part of a coalition, Labour moved further to the right, became indistinguishable from the two major parties - and self-destructed, losing masses of traditional voters.
Everything it has gained down the decades disappeared overnight.
The proportional representation system allowed smaller parties to step into the breech with genuinely alternative policies on immediate issues, but the long term gains were made by Sinn Fein, who are now a major contender
Labour continues to shoot itself in the foot by trying to put water charges protesters in jail - belt-and-braces suicide.
The right wing establishment of the British Labour Party needs to learn the lessons and allow for new/old policies to produce a genuine alternative policy
" The EU negotiations are much too important for us to start playing childish games."
You mean like the one May has played by accusing Europe of trying to influence the British election?
That was Party polickng in the extreme - utterly ruthless.
Jim Carroll

07 May 17 - 03:42 AM (#3853617)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

Brexit too important for party games? Yes it is. Unfortunately that is the only way any party can think of it. I was chatting to someone a while ago about patriotism since this os often claimed as well. I claimed that when an action benefits both your self interest and the country it could be done through patriotism or self interest and there is no way to tell. You may even delude yourself. In an Occams razor sort of way, the concrete self interest is probably a more ppwerful force than the abstract patriotism.   So to be a cleaely patriotic act your self interest and the countries interests must be opposed and you must act against ypur self interest to the benefit of the country. That is why a soldier can be patriotic as being killed or severely wounded is not on their personal interest. You could defend higher taxes on the grounds of patriotism if you are personally worse off but think it is right thing to do; you cannot defend a change that lowers taxes for you in that way.

So all that chat is leading up to this: politician, name me something you are striving for in Britain's interests that is opposed to your individual and party interest. If you can't you cannot demonstrate you have any stronger motivation than self interest.

07 May 17 - 04:23 AM (#3853621)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn

We're just going to have to disagree on that PFR as obviously we don't see the things the same way on this. For me Labour have no God given right to be the party of choice of the centre left or the left. There are other valid choices. Likewise I don't see why it is assumed to be a good thing that one party have a dominance in parliament based on what is always a minority of the vote. Maybe here in Scotland we are just a wee bit more used to the ideas of parties working together on issues despite the deep divisions. The previous SNP administration had an overall majority - but that was very unusual as the system was kind of designed to avoid majorities. The first SNP administration - and the current one - did not have a majority. Both administrations have worked without formal coalitions too. There is no reason why either a formal coalition at Westmister or just parties working together on an issue to issue basis need be an inferior gvt to one with a clear majority. I mean I was not a fan of the Tory/Lib Dem coalition gvt but I think they were preferable to this Tory majority gvt.

07 May 17 - 04:32 AM (#3853622)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Brexit is no longer a choice "D", the path forward will be determined by the negotiations. We need to be united and strong, we shall be opposed by a cabal of unelected thugs who will stop at nothing to protect their self serving interests. Dreaming and whining from within will only strengthen them.
I have no doubt we will have to leave without a "deal", but that has positives as well as negatives, a chance from some real debate on the future society we want in the UK or the individual nations which comprise the UK.

07 May 17 - 04:42 AM (#3853626)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

A long time ago now I heard Robin Cook saying a problem with our system is that it yo-yos on policy. Party A enforces a policy because it can, then on the next change of government tbey work flat out to dismantle A in favour of B. Nezt change of government B is phased out in favour of A. Or more likely some variation A*. The result is an utter mess. And, he said, he was sick of that idea of a strong government. A truly strong government is one where changes stay implemented, and by and large that is because they have been worked out by cross party agreement in some form. Strong majorities reduce the need for such agreements and in the long term can therefore end up achieving less of perminance.

07 May 17 - 04:45 AM (#3853627)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

perhaps YOU couldn't distinguish between the tories and Blairite type Labour government JIm - but people dependent on the health service sure as hell could, and can.

i know i've said this before, and i hope you won't be offended - but believe me when you are dealing with these realities every day - my god - you notice a difference between labour and conservative healthcare.

07 May 17 - 04:46 AM (#3853628)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

We differ on the nature of the separation, ake. To me, saying Brexit is agreed is like saying a piece of cloth is red. It is absolutely correct at one level. But there are a heck of a lot of alternatives reds.

07 May 17 - 05:11 AM (#3853631)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

"my god - you notice a difference between labour and conservative healthcare"

which is why we choose to pay for private medical insurance and I still work at nearly 71 to pay for it, which enabled immediate emergency treatment for my wife 4 weeks ago for dangerously infected leg ulcers. Thankfully sepsis was prevented!

07 May 17 - 06:01 AM (#3853636)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Sorry "D" but the leaders of the cartel will never relinquish insistence on "Freedom of movement" and without some control on immigration from the EU our society will continue to disintegrate, youth training will never be properly addressed, housing will be a pipe dream for our poorest young folks infrastructure and public services will continue to decay.

Impasse!!.......forward with Theresa, ......for one night only. :0)

07 May 17 - 06:19 AM (#3853637)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

"our society will continue to disintegrate, youth training will never be properly addressed, housing will be a pipe dream for our poorest young folks infrastructure and public services will continue to decay."

The decline in our services, infrastructure and the inequalities present in our society are not the fault of the EU or immigrants, but the result of government policy, in this case austerity. A vote for the tories, the ultimate establishment party is a vote in favour of pursuing the polices of the last seven years, not least of which is the continued running down of the NHS and the welfare state, the greatest political achievement ever and directly born of out of the desire to alleviate the suffering of ordinary people following the horrors of war; our families literally fought and died so our politicians could do what's best for the people; that seems like a pipe dream these days, and there are no politicians of the stature of Bevan et al, certainly not in the tory party.

Our hope lies in our youth, that they (who were overwhelmingly pro-EU and thankfully an outward-looking bunch) will vote and curb the disaster that these old white establishment men are visiting on them. Labour could win if they mobilise and vote ion enough numbers; they at least have the wit to see past the personalities and consider the policies.

07 May 17 - 06:33 AM (#3853639)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Keith A of Hertford

Read what he wrote Keith

I thought I had.
If he said that, QUOTE HIM!

If you haven't anything intelligent to say, perhaps you have a brighter relative to post for you!

Not nice Jim.
I am not saying that you are wrong, just that most of the electorate do not agree with you, and I refer to now not to the referendum result.

Once again you think you know more about life here than people who live here.

07 May 17 - 06:44 AM (#3853641)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

get real - 'youth' by and large couldn't be fucked to vote.
those that were asked hadn't read any of the arguments about brexit and seemed to think they wouldn't be allowed to go abroad. 'outward looking' - most of them can't find the off switch on their x-box.

if your great hope for the future is those gormless bastards, we really are up shit creek. and if the gang of abusive 'neil characters' Corbyn has recruited to the labour party is your great vision forget it - no one young or old is going to vote for it.

only poor bloody labour voters like me. wake up! everyone else has buggered off and left the theatre!

07 May 17 - 07:18 AM (#3853643)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"If he said that, QUOTE HIM!"
I did Keith - here 'tis again if you had prooblem the first time
"Racist, Fascist, Homophobe, "
Now kindly fuck off - this is the last time Im responding to your repetitive idiocy, it's naused up threads for far too long
"Not nice Jim."
See above
Jim Carroll

07 May 17 - 07:57 AM (#3853644)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"get real - 'youth' by and large couldn't be fucked to vote."
You need to "get real" Al
As things
s stand at present, it doesn't matter whether Labour win votes or not - unless they seriously change their policies to present a real alternative rather than tow sides of the same coin, it doesn't matter who is in power
Blair probably did more damage to the Labour party than any other leader - he formalised the long-term sell-out and then went on to commit war crimes in Britain's name
What is happening internally in the Labour Party is a struggle between the 'sellers-outers' and those see the need for genuine change.
I have no idea if Corbyn is the one to bring about those changes, but if it's going to be done, it's going to take time to repair the damage.
Without change, we may as well let the politicians get on with it and look elsewhere to defend ourselves from the crumbling situation
Europe is merely a stop-gap - a combination of countries attempting st stave of the worst excesses of a predatory system prowling around for fresh victims as a group - Greece was an example of how it is quite likely to turn on its own if the situation demands.
Within the E.U., we at least have a say in its running - outside, we have nothing
Jim Carroll

07 May 17 - 08:17 AM (#3853648)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

I have just spent 90 minutes with my eldest offsprint discussing the history of Algeria since 1830 to present day and to some extent how that affects France's current attitudes. The EU free movement of people arises much from theories of economics than individual rights and, founding principle or not, I would not assume "clarifications" could not be agreed. It is also evident that the overwhelming vote in favour of the Greek government stood for nothing when dealing with the Greek financial crisis. So I see no obvious reason why an overwhelming win for the Conservatives helps in the EU negotiations, though it makes life much easier for the government to get its domestic agenda through. (I was interested in Teribus' three advantages for May in winning big, and two were about silencing opponents, with his first point within her own party.) But what does seem obvious is that opening a discussion by declaring those who you are negotiating with are untrustworthy is not likely to be in your own best interests.

07 May 17 - 08:17 AM (#3853649)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim dear, he was being ironic.
He was not admitting to being a fascist and a racist and a homophobe!

07 May 17 - 08:44 AM (#3853653)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Thanks Keith, but don't waste your time trying to educate pork.
Jim is a desperate character in every sense of the word.
Most people here are smart enough to understand irony and to have formed opinions on other members over the years. I have never had any pm's from member alleging that I hate homosexuals, or people of other races.....personal hatred is not on my itinerary, but I will argue vociferously on ideas and behaviours which are negative politically or socially.

Jim fits rather neatly into Miss Coulter's definition of "liberal" :0)

An Ideologue with no coherent ideas.

07 May 17 - 09:31 AM (#3853670)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

'Blair probably did more damage to the Labour party than any other leader '

he got elected three times and it would have been four times if the left wing wing fuckwits hadn't tipped him the black spot. rather like Theresa May in the tory party - a face that the public like is a very strong card in your hand.

The wars would have happened anyway. And the opposition would been up the yanks jaxi, like a rat up a drain pipe - as well you know. Blair was just trying to keep out of the trouble Wilson got into when he told the Yanks to piss off over Vietnam.

Labour looked electable all the time Blair was in charge and its been downhill all the way ever since.
Brown, Ed Bollocks, and now Complete Bollocks...

07 May 17 - 10:04 AM (#3853674)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim dear, he was being ironic."
He isn't intelligent enough - and we all know he doesn't possess a dictionary
Doesn't matter anyway - having missed it twice, you challenged me to quote it - which is what I did
It's a little silly to claim something that is an essential part of somebody's public persona as "ironic" - he's made his views on 'Gay plaguers" quite plain here many times
"Jim fits rather neatly into Miss Coulter's definition of "liberal"
Another Klan approved quote- keep 'em coming Ake - you're building yourself quite a C>V> - she fits nicely between Breivik and Yellow Stars for refugees
"he got elected three times and it would have been four times "
Remind me how many times Thatcher was elected Al - and she was a self-declared fascist.
The wars may have happened anyway - but Blair made us part of them
Jim Carroll

07 May 17 - 10:53 AM (#3853682)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Please explain something Jim, how does writing "Racist Fascist Homophobe" in the context of a quotation make me any of these things?

I fear you are becoming more confused. Some time ago, I recommended time away from these pages to regain some of your lost equilibrium; the interruption to posting for all members over the last week appears to have had the opposite effect?
I hope you are not dabbing elsewhere Jim? Moonlighting on left wing websites pretending to be a proper socialist? Naughty!!

07 May 17 - 11:53 AM (#3853701)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Racist Fascist Homophobe""
I didn't say it did - not to Keith anyway
He challenged my claiming you had already referred to is, suggesting I was lying - I merely pointed our where you had, proving he was an idiot
You make no bones about being any of those things, but that's well known enough not to have to be arsed arguing it here
Give my love to "Miss Coulter", if you're not too busy!!
Jim Carroll

07 May 17 - 12:01 PM (#3853703)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

By the way
"pretending to be a proper socialist?"
I once asked you your views on some of the major aspects of "being a socialist, public ownership" and the right to a voice in the workplace - you refused to respond other than to claim that the British people would never accept socialism.
So much for your understanding of the term
If I ever need to know about 'National Socialism' I I'll know who to ask.
A soclialst who supports Assad, Trump, Mayfly, Andreas Breivik and forcing refugees to wear badges of identification - Charlie Marx would have loved you!!!
Jim Carroll

07 May 17 - 02:01 PM (#3853726)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Jim, I would explain Ann Coulter's quote to you, but other members would probably think that I was trying to embarrass you.
It was a piece of gentle (for her) irony.....I don't understand your interpretation of that post.

07 May 17 - 02:12 PM (#3853731)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs

So who'll take a punt at the Conservative majority in the next government? I would guess that it will be in the region of 180!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

07 May 17 - 02:16 PM (#3853733)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Charlie Marx??? Luxembourgian Communist Charles Marx? Or were you somehow attempting to refer to Karl Marx? What a grasp of detail Jim - you really are priceless!!

08 May 17 - 06:39 AM (#3853860)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Keith A of Hertford

There is little to be unpopular in Labour's new policies.
If they continue to be unpopular despite that, why?


Stephen Kinnock recently said Labour had moved toward the "hard left" and was out of touch with the electorate.
Is that the problem?

08 May 17 - 07:13 AM (#3853870)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

i think the basic problem is Jeremy Corbyn.

People don't like him. He's not what I'd call hard left.

No one will take on the bankers. FRance has just elected one.

THey don't like his promises of generosity - which always seems to end up in the wrong hands.

they're not sure about his unilateralism, which seems to be based on his sensibility rather political reality.

they don't like his dress sense - sort of Rick's bar in Casablanca.
THey don't like his beard.
i think theres only me voting for him, and i'm not that keen.

08 May 17 - 07:19 AM (#3853872)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"He's not what I'd call hard left."
Don't know what newspapers your read Al
He may not be "hard" enough - here's hoping that's a passing phase, but the bum-wipe press are treating him like a fart at Mass - that's good enough for me
Jim Carroll

08 May 17 - 07:57 AM (#3853882)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"you really are priceless!!"
Then you'll have to start saving the pennies
ALWAYS the IDIOT
Jim Carroll

09 May 17 - 05:17 AM (#3854031)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Congratulations another pointless link Jim.

So who was this Charlie Marx then Jim.

09 May 17 - 09:43 AM (#3854066)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

Stephen Kinnock recently said Labour had moved toward the "hard left" and was out of touch with the electorate.
Is that the problem?

"Hard Left"? Once you've taken all the soft options that's all you've got ;-)

09 May 17 - 10:10 AM (#3854069)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"So who was this Charlie Marx then Jom."
Piss of Teribus - if you can't work out that Charlie is a diminutive of Charles which is derived from the German Karl you really shouldn't be here
It was a flippant comment which you appear to be attempting to make Capital (pun intended) from (get somebody to explain it to you)
It is none of your business anyway - my remark was addressed to your goosestepping mate not to you - wrong goose-stepper.
Were no never told that morons should be seen and not heard?
I really have managed to get up your nose big-time, haven't I?
Jim Carroll

09 May 17 - 11:15 AM (#3854078)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

Grammar School Bullies...

Once upon a time in the long past era of the 11 plus...

It was given that any kid selected for Grammar was supposed to have at least a minimum level of intelligence
above that of the average population...

But it seemed the typical Grammar School bully was at the lower spectrum of that elite percentage..
Bully boy was so full of his own sense of superiority
that he seemed completely oblivious to how thick he was compared to his geekier class mate victims..

Bullies were generally slow on the uptake and easy to take the subtle piss out of with irony.
It was a kind of russian roulette to see how far you could get with sarcasm before they twigged and got physical.
My gang had a pet bully.
He couldn't make his mind up if he wanted to join and be our friend, or just habitually beat us up..

He'd bound across the playground like a big soppy dog to greet us with a knee to the groin and a crap joke he got off last night's telly.
Then join us for a chat until he got distracted by a weaker victim passing nearby...

Wouldn't be surprised if he grew up to be a tory party official..

Dunno why.. but that's what Teribus just reminded me of...??? 🙄

09 May 17 - 11:51 AM (#3854085)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Naw pfr your Grammar School Bully was more of your left wing militant Labour Derek Hatton type ("Hatton attended the Liverpool Institute for Boys from 1959 to 1964. His subsequent academic success was limited." You seem to have described him to a "T")

As to Jim's rather poor explanation. I would think that if you gave as the answer to a question such as who wrote "Das Kapital" the name Charles, or Charlie Marx you'd be laughed out of the building.

Never mind pfr keep up with your sarcasm (It has after all always been recognised as being the poorest form of wit).

09 May 17 - 11:57 AM (#3854087)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

"Never mind pfr keep up with your sarcasm. It has after all always been recognised as being the poorest form of wit"

yes... mostly by unimaginative dullards, lacking a single creative original amusing idea in their entire lives... 😜

09 May 17 - 12:12 PM (#3854089)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"As to Jom's rather poor explanation."
Yup - really did get under your skin
Take your thrashings like an adult
"you'd be laughed out of the building."
Only by those with a sense of humour
Stupid boy!!
Nothing more about those Traveller "dynasties" yet, I presume......
Jim Carroll

09 May 17 - 12:48 PM (#3854094)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Don't know about you pfr but I would hardly describe Oscar Wilde as being an "unimaginative dullard", completely lacking a single creative, original amusing idea ......😜😜😜😜😜😜.

Jim I barely give you a thought. You are a proven liar and a hypocrite in addition to being probably the most intolerant, biased and bigoted person on this forum. Your idiotic posts are so full of errors and display glaring gaps in your understanding and knowledge of the topic being discussed that they aren't worth reading. The only way you can muster an argument is to "make-up-shit", and claim people have said things that they most certainly have not.

09 May 17 - 01:13 PM (#3854098)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

nah... cheeky Oscar was being really sarcastic...

it's all the dull wits who followed on after thinking they are clever merely by repeating literary quotes by rote,
that I'm having a good chuckle at... 🤣

09 May 17 - 01:22 PM (#3854102)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

2You are a proven liar and a hypocrite in addition to being probably the most intolerant, biased and bigoted person on this forum."
You say the nicest things - pity you never live up to your compliments with actual evidence
I think the last tie you made an effort was to produce a list of disagreements which, extraordinarily, you appear to regard as "lies" - megalomania gone wild
You could try again, but I won't hold my breath
Nor will I do so awaiting proof of your racist smears of the Travelling community - and you accuse me of inventing things!!!
As you say "priceless"
Jim Carroll

09 May 17 - 01:36 PM (#3854107)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

It would appear that you are easily pleased and amused pfr.

09 May 17 - 01:59 PM (#3854111)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

"It would appear that you are easily pleased and amused pfr."

Teri - depends on the mood, and the quality of the social company / antagonists...

It's better to at least try to smile.
Certainly if we are doomed to a generation of tory domination... 😣

No point becoming an old closed minded misery if I can possibly avoid it...

09 May 17 - 02:21 PM (#3854115)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

well not long now!

09 May 17 - 03:45 PM (#3854127)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Always found that after "years of Tory domination" the country has been in far better shape economically than after "years of Labour domination" that have usually left the country on the bones of it's arse.

09 May 17 - 05:36 PM (#3854138)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

nah... labour builds the nation up again for the tories to come along and asset strip it..

errrrmmm.. that's why the tories allow labour to win every decade or so... 😉

09 May 17 - 05:54 PM (#3854139)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron

There weren't many assets left after the last Labour Government. Remember the "no money left" note?

09 May 17 - 06:30 PM (#3854144)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

"There weren't many assets left after the last Labour Government. Remember the "no money left" note?"

Hah.. bet that pissed off the tory vultures waiting to pounce on the spoils after labour were beat out of government...

.. all the crooked international banker cronies had already scarpered off with the loot
and left everyone else [labour & tory] to pick up the pieces... 😜

09 May 17 - 06:37 PM (#3854147)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stanron

After a leverage inflated bubble bursts there aren't that many assets left. It was mostly imaginary money that just ceased to exist.

09 May 17 - 06:52 PM (#3854151)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

"After a leverage inflated bubble bursts there aren't that many assets left. It was mostly imaginary money that just ceased to exist."

yeah... but profit greedy tories are bound to sniff out even the last remaining stale crumbs to privatise... 🙄

10 May 17 - 06:38 AM (#3854209)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: The Sandman

Interesting tactic of corbynd to attemt to divert the lection away from brexit, clever ploy

10 May 17 - 08:59 AM (#3854220)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker

yeah.. shame on that potty old beardy godless lefty trouble maker for distracting away from brexit,
the only issue in heaven and on earth that exists and matters for god fearing patriotic englishmen
and their good lady wives, and bulldogs..... 😡

10 May 17 - 10:58 AM (#3854238)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton

Ha ha.....you remoamers thought it was the end of the world!   I like Mr Corbyn and his socialist ideas though they are a bit wishy washy for me.
The problem is the mass of the Parliamentary party who want him out and a nice "liberal" installed in his place.....someone like Ummuna, Johnstone, even (god help us) Mr Blair. These people are always screaming that there is not a realistic opposition to the Tories....but they are no opposition at all, except at election time, they are worse than the Tories, spending all the money, never coming up with an original idea, promoting the EU and mass immigration.

Useless! I hope Mrs May gives them a good kicking and the Party is forced to split.

11 May 17 - 01:54 AM (#3854369)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

See Labour's draft manifesto is being panned for its attempt to turn back time - Corbyn may yet succeed in his dream of rehabilitating Trotsky yet. One thing he isn't going to do is win the election in June.

11 May 17 - 03:08 AM (#3854372)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Corbyn may yet succeed in his dream of rehabilitating Trotsky "
Rhetorical garbage and a spectacular display of ignorance of politicis in anty shape or form.
Where has Corbyn ever proposed ever proposed the theory of 'Permanent Revolution' or suggested the taking and holding of power by armed struggle, or anything resembling the ideas of Trotsky
You have a nasty dose of the 'Norman Tebbits'.
If anything, Corbyn is proposing a return to the principles and ideas that brought about the Labour party - they resemble the ideas of Michael Foot, or those introduced by the post war Labour Government which rebuilt Britain following W.W.2. - a fair policy which gave us social housing, a decent medical service, an industry that was run for the people of Britain rather than the enrichment of the few - and a voice in the workplace - oll eroded and eventually destroyed by fascists like Thatcher.
Head-cases like you seem happy to go with what has been acheived by here and her jackbooters - a rapidly increasing inequality - no industry and an uncertain economy
Trostkyism my arse
Right-wing politicking in the extreme
Don't suppose you'd like to point oout any specific examples of "Trotskyism" in the Labour manisfesto
No?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

11 May 17 - 03:21 AM (#3854375)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Corbyn & Trotsky

11 May 17 - 03:29 AM (#3854379)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 10 May 17 - 08:59 AM

yeah.. shame on that potty old beardy godless lefty trouble maker for distracting away from brexit,
the only issue in heaven and on earth that exists and matters for god fearing patriotic englishmen
and their good lady wives, and bulldogs..... 😡

Yes, the problem is that until UKIP forced the issue both the 'main' parties (and the Lib Dems)concentrated on 'all the other issues' even though many of them could not be properly dealt with while we didn't have the power to deal, ultimately, with the problems.
Brexit is a one-off matter. Once dealt with, as the priority it is, the UK government of the day will be free to go back to dealing with everything else, without having its hands bound by the EC.

11 May 17 - 03:47 AM (#3854384)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Corbyn & Trotsky"
Having the=achievements of revolutionaries is not suggesting their policies are suitable for Britain, any more than recognising the achievements of our historical figurs is a suggestion that we accept their ideas
I asked what particular aspects of Trotsky's policies, Corbyn is suggesting - not whether he should be admired.
From your link
"The injustices that scar society today are not those of 1945: want, squalor, idleness, disease and ignorance. And they have changed since I first entered parliament in 1983.
"Today, what is holding people back above all are inequality, neglect, insecurity, prejudice and discrimination."
Key policies announced so far:
Promote economic and social justice
Force companies with more than 21 staff to publish information about pay, hours and grade of every job
Kickstart the Brexit process by triggering Article 50 straight away
Against renewal of Trident

Trotskyism?
In my arse Troskyinm!!
You are a rather dim stereotype
Jim Carroll

11 May 17 - 03:53 AM (#3854386)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

easy to say that- but they both had a beard..

11 May 17 - 06:01 AM (#3854400)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains

Mr Shaw your excuse for not making links is repetitive. So for you a personal guide.
1) copy the URL of the article of interest e.g.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4493596/Labour-s-manifesto-Britain-1970s.html
2)open up "make a link(blue clicky)"
3)In the top line paste your copied URL in the box labelled "Link URL"
and hit the "create link" button and the link is created.
4)Now comes the cunning bit. Copy the second line down in it's entirety.
as
11 May 17 - 06:06 AM (#3854401)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains

4)Now comes the cunning bit. Copy the second line down in it's entirety.
as
11 May 17 - 06:11 AM (#3854403)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains

4)Now comes the cunning bit. Copy the second line down in it's entirety.

5)Paste this into your post NOT the test this link blue clicky line.

6)when opened up subsequently a link/blue clicky is created,

Do not. do not. do not copy the third line blue clicky when creating the link.

This should enable you create a blue clicky link. Good Luck


IF a kind forum fairy could delete my middle post it would be appreciated. Apparently to post an example of the "link URL" line craters the remaining post.

11 May 17 - 06:13 AM (#3854404)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

"I asked what particular aspects of Trotsky's policies, Corbyn is suggesting"

Never suggested that Corbyn WAS suggesting adoption of Trotsky's policies - I accused Corbyn of wishing to turn back time. For some idiotic reason he seeks to return the UK to the shambolic chaos of the 1970s where Trades Union bosses dictated to our elected government. Another pet "hobby-horse" of Corbyn's is that he wishes to internationally rehabilitate the reputation of Leon Trotsky.

11 May 17 - 06:44 AM (#3854410)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Never suggested that Corbyn WAS suggesting adoption of Trotsky's policies"
Then Trotsy is no more than a red herring in this discussion
His name crops up enough in realtion to the Labour party
Your rest is a stupidly distorted account of the time when Trades Unions (which are for more democratically organised and answerable to their membership that any political body is) were acting on behalf of their members in response to politicians and economic undermining of the rights and living standards of their members
There were two sides to what happened in the seventies - right wing clowns like you never regard that working people might actually have an opinion worth considering in those events.
Thatchers's mob came to power on the slogan "Labour isn't working" and added a million or so to the dole queues
The "shambles of the seventies" was followed by the systematic of dismantling of British industry, destruction of communities around those industries and the creation of a two-nation Britain sharply divided into those with jobs and a future and those without.
You shower of bollocks carefully ignore the current situation which is, if Britain is ever to be independent, it has to return to the pre-Thatcher era and start from scratch in giving Britain an industrial base - and that has to include giving working people a voice in their own lives.
As it is, all Britain can decide today is who to be dependent on
"pet "hobby-horse""
Total load of shite
It is a "pet" nothing; he mentioned it in passing and as never taken it any further - (or maybe he is holding secret classes in Trotskyism that we don't know about"
This really is stereotyping garbage.
Anyone serious about politics learns from past achievements and mistakes - whether you are a socialist, a Marxist, a supporter of the present system or whatever
Politicians go tho the past for their inspiration - Thatcher's inspiration was J M Keynes (a contemporary of Trotsky)
If you have an argument put it and stop spouting propagandist rhetoric
Jim Carroll

11 May 17 - 07:05 AM (#3854411)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons

You shower of bollocks carefully ignore the current situation which is, if Britain is ever to be independent, it has to return to the pre-Thatcher era and start from scratch in giving Britain an industrial base - and that has to include giving working people a voice in their own lives.

Lovely bit of rhetoric (Not!)

Sounds like the typical, "If you want to get to there, I wouldn't start from here!"

We are where we are. We shouldn't need to dismantle everything done over the last 30 years (by governments of both main parties) in order to be able to move forwards.

11 May 17 - 07:40 AM (#3854426)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

"Trades Unions (which are for more democratically organised and answerable to their membership that any political body is)"

Ludicrous statement - Just take a look at how many of UNITE's 1.5 million members voted in the last leadership election and the one before that - Round about 10% turnout.

Coal:
Since 1947 something like 955 pits have been closed by the time Thatcher became Prime Minister 767 mines of the 955 had already been closed.
Thatcher closed 115, Harold Wilson had closed 253

Steel:
In 1947 when the industry was nationalised there were 96 steel firms in the UK.
By 1970 BSC consists of only 21 plants
By 1980 BSC has only 5 sites. The year started with a 13 week strike.

The industries you talk about Jim were already in terminal decline long before Thatcher came along. Fact of the matter now is that we cannot produce coal economically and today nobody wants to buy it. We cannot make steel economically as we simply cannot compete with China. If Corbyn wishes to resurrect these industries then we will be onto a hiding to nothing in situation that can only result in costly failure - Labour's stock in trade.

11 May 17 - 08:57 AM (#3854442)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll

"Coal:"
Doesn't matter who did it - when Thatcehr came we had a mining industry
When she left - we didn't
"Steel:"
You out line the gradual rundown o the steel industry by various governments - Thatcher administerd the death blow
The strike (the first in half a century)
The workers believed they were entitled to a pay rise - they asked for 20& - the bosses offered %6
A commission of enquiry decided %16 was reasonable
Workers do not go on strike unmless they are forced to
Taking strikes out of context is meaningless
HERE'S THE CONTEXT FOR YOU
Once again you are blaming workers for standing up for their needs and nort being prepared to shoulder the responsibility for a fucked up economy
As far as democracy goes - I have no say in what my MP does once he/she is elected - I could go to a union meeting and vote on any major decision
Show me where that is in the constitution!
The industries were in decline because of lacjk of investment and opposition to them by various governments who accepted the profit ethic as being more important than long term stability and the welfare of employees.
Thatcher wielded her knife because she was able to and she left much of Britain an economic and industrial wasteland
Jim Carroll

11 May 17 - 09:51 AM (#3854449)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu

"I have no say in what my MP does once he/she is elected"

Ours is positively dismissive, a patch of fog, sheep, ex-banker climbing the ladder to his ministerial post. He's so right-wing as to be indistinguishable from a kipper, and he latches himself onto all sorts of causes whilst not actually offering any meaningful support. He was photographed smiling at a local collection for a food bank, which just about tells you everything you need to know about him.

I call him Westminster's representative in the constituency, the very opposite of what a constituency politician should be.

11 May 17 - 01:20 PM (#3854472)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: The Sandman

"Thatcher wielded her knife because she was able to and she left much of Britain an economic and industrial wasteland"
Correct,
Blair then continued it in fact, domestic policy he was a thatcherite, and foreign policy apart from ireland an arse licker of the USA.
Corbyn,is a politician with principles, unlike Blair who was a THATCHERITE PRETENDING TO BE LABOUR.

11 May 17 - 04:38 PM (#3854494)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

What is correct Sandman was that in 1979 Thatcher took over a Britain considered by many in the world to be on it's last legs. A country where the electorate were sick to the back teeth of Trades Union interference and Labour incompetence. In the course of the three Parliaments she served as Prime Minister she turned that situation around so much so that in 1997 when Tony Blair won the first of his three elections no incoming government had ever been handed an exchequer or economy in a better state. Thirteen years later in 2010 Labour under the guiding hands of Blair and Brown had squandered the lot.

Now we have Corbyn attempting to turn the clock back with tired, old, disproven ideas that come attached with costs that Labour cannot quantify.

11 May 17 - 04:54 PM (#3854495)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: The Sandman

The usual pack of nonsense from teribus, no one considered the uk to be on its last legs they were just pissed off with a dustmans strike.
Thatcher did not turn anything around and further more she was corrupt.

11 May 17 - 05:19 PM (#3854496)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

"Costs Labour cannot quantify"

We may have an opinion but all we know so far is that the way the policies are to be paid for has not been leaked; the text of the manifesto has been leaked but if i was producing it the text would ne in Word or equivalent and the costs in Excel or similar. There is no inherent reason that people who had access to the one would also have a copy of the other.

So when it comes to costs all we can say at the moment is "not proven". We have been promised costs in the full manifesto in a few days. It is silly to argue about costs until then.

11 May 17 - 06:40 PM (#3854508)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Well,Teribus, in 2010, after 13 years of Labour, we had a health service in pretty good nick. Everyone was being seen by a consultant within 18 weeks. All gone. Cancer patients were all being treated well within the 62-day time scale. All gone. The A&E waiting time was always met. All gone. Apropos of costings, we were told by Osborne, friend of the City, the non-doms and the tax-avoiders, that the deficit would be banished by 2015. We were "all in it together." Not a bloody chance. A pipe-dream and a massive lie. There is no end to this deficit. Don't give me all that shit about Labour's costings. The Tories' "costings" have been diabolical, and the people who suffer most are those public sector workers who have been getting next to no pay rises for a decade, the nurses who have to use food banks and the disabled who have had their benefits devastated.

12 May 17 - 03:23 AM (#3854560)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus

Shaw - you obviously read a different 2010 report on the status of the NHS than I did.

DMcG - Corporation Tax seems to be Labour's answer to every question related to costs. That and tax those earning £80,000 more (Valid point made on last night's "Question Time" by a member of the audience in Edinburgh - That will not cover it by a long shot, to raise what is required she pointed out that the line for more stringent taxes has to be set much lower at around the £30,000 per year mark - The lady was right, ask Francois Hollande how effective his swingeing tax hikes were in remedying France's problems)

Sandman - So 1979 "just pissed off with a dustmans strike"

Back in 1979 people had to wait six months to get a telephone, were banned from taking more than £50 abroad and were at the mercy of union leaders for jobs. Hospital porters decided if you could be admitted to hospital for operations and Liverpool Corporation were considering burial at sea to solve the problem of the dead piling up in mortuaries awaiting burial.

The economy was crippled by rampant inflation, punitive taxes and a 98pc levy on investment income that crushed entrepreneurial initiative. In 1977, Britain had to accept a handout from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), like Greece or Cyprus today.

The Government owned the telephones and railways, but also British Airways, Thomas Cook and Pickfords. Each was paralysed by inefficiency and bureaucracy, "customer service" was a little-known skill. A once proud industrial base was crumbling with low productivity, over-manning and a reputation for poor quality goods.

A total of 29m working days were lost to strikes in 1979, compared with 2m in 1990. Power cuts were standard and industries were limited to a three-day working week to conserve energy. The candle was almost a unit of currency.

Throughout the 1970s successive governments wrung their hands and pursued policies of conciliation with the unions, which basically meant capitulation. The demands from increasingly militant leaders grew; more money, more pay or paralysis.

The decline had started long before. Harold Wilson, the Labour prime minister, closed 253 coal mines. Lady Thatcher closed 115. Despite the claim Lady Thatcher abandoned "rust-bucket industries", Britain's manufacturing production rose 7.5pc during her premiership.

At the start, Thatcher's economic policies pushed Britain into a painful period of adjustment. In Thatcher's first two years GDP shrank 3.5pc and unemployment rose by a million. Her government attacked hyperinflation with blisteringly high interest rates, raised from 12pc to 14pc in 1979 and then to 17pc in 1980. Manufacturing was hard hit and the recession at the beginning of the 1980s was the worst since the Great Depression.

Yet her firm stance, radical action and strong leadership led to marked improvements. Howe's first Budget in 1979, the top rate of income tax was cut from 83pc to 60pc (it was later cut to 40pc in 1988) and the basic rate was cut from 33pc to 30pc. The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets, to 29 percent in the 1986 budget, 27 percent in 1987 and to 25 percent in 1988. Subsequent governments reduced the basic rate further, to the present level of 20 percent in 2007. Tell me Sandman would you cheer a basic rate hike on income tax of 15% to get back to your beloved 1979 level, if so you might well be on your own.

The moves sent an unmistakable pro-business, pro-aspiration message. Thatcher's mantra was that businesses created wealth, not governments and the privatisation of state-owned industries was one of her most lasting legacies.

State ownership of businesses, in Britain and abroad, had been the dominant practice since 1945. A sell-off was originally planned as a cash raid for the Treasury, but by the time Lady Thatcher left office, it had snowballed into a philosophy that swept across the world.

Between 1984 and 1991, 33 major companies were privatised in what the old guard, such as Harold MacMillan, called "selling off the family silver". Associated British Ports, British Airports Authority, British Airways, British Gas, British Steel, British Telecom, 17 electricity companies and 10 water and sewerage companies left public ownership.

According to the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS), the state companies went from costing the Treasury an average of £300m each a year in subsidies to contributing between £3.3bn and £5.8bn a year in corporation tax from 1987 onwards.

British Steel needed £1bn of Treasury support in 1980 on a turnover of £3bn, earning itself a place in the Guinness Book of Records for inefficiency. Soon after privatisation it was profitable and contributing £200m a year in taxes.

British Telecom had a £300m cash injection in 1980; in 1995 it paid £1.1bn to the Exchequer.

The consumer also benefited. By 1995, domestic gas prices fell 25pc and commercial gas costs were 50pc lower. Telecoms charges fell by 40pc and airport charges dropped 10pc.

Anyone wishing to return to the chaos of the 1970s can only be described as a complete and utter f**king idiot.

12 May 17 - 04:31 AM (#3854568)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

well.....

theres a grain of truth there. many of those shortcomings we had as a country got a lot of publicity.

however i was a teacher at the time, and none of the kids left school and were unemployed who didn't want to be.
there were no beggars on the street.
there were virtually no hard drugs on the street, and i was working in the inner ring of brum.

okay ...you didn't have to wait for a phone, but we lost stuff as well, because the tories didn't believe there was such a thing as society.

12 May 17 - 05:26 AM (#3854576)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw

Well maybe the report I read was the real one. Those things were in place in 21010, just as I said. Those are the things that matter to people who become in need of health care. Sure, the NHS was, and still is, a top-heavy and clumsy bureaucracy. But it was broadly delivering what people wanted and needed, and now it isn't.

12 May 17 - 12:21 PM (#3854633)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG

DMcG - Corporation Tax seems to be Labour's answer to every question related to costs. That and tax those earning £80,000 more (Valid point made on last night's "Question Time" by a member of the audience in Edinburgh - That will not cover it by a long shot, to raise what is required she pointed out that the line for more stringent taxes has to be set much lower at around the £30,000 per year mark - The lady was right, ask Francois Hollande how effective his swingeing tax hikes were in remedying France's problems) I watched Question Time as well. My point applies there as well as here. It is only a few days until we have the statements how things will be paid for. Once we have that written down and cross referenced we will be able to check for ourselves what is paying for what. Until then it is idle speculation. (And yes, I know the Labour rep had been at the meeting authorising the manifesto.) But actually, I dont set that much store by the details in any parties manifesto. Partly because we know "Events, dear boy" can change all the promises. So the tone and vision is at least as important as the detail. It is also because politicians insist people voted for the entire manifesto commitments whereas in practise any individual vote only partially supports the manifesto. The dilemma was well illustrated on question time by the woman who agreed with almost all Labour's manifesto but wanted independence for Scotland. She feared a vote for Labour would be treated as a vote against independence. SNP would answer her independence wishes, but not the rest. It is the same for all of us, more or less. A 100% support of your preferred party's stance is rare.

It is also important to see virtually every commentator has agreed that for the first time for many years voters are being offered very distinct views. That is how a democracy should be, whichever side you are inclined towards.

12 May 17 - 01:46 PM (#3854649)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle

oh by the way did you hear my Jeremy Corbyn song?


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/jeremy-corbyn-song

10 Jun 17 - 10:24 AM (#3860054)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Gutcher

A bit ironic that the Labour party in Scotland, due to their pathological hatred of the SNP, by voting Conservative in areas where they did not fancy their own chances should have deprived Mr Corbyn of a good opportunity of forming a minority government.

In these parts we have a saying that it"s a bad bird that files its own nest, Mrs May certainly made a right erse of this campaign and faces further issues of unintended consequences by the application of EVEL in the House.

10 Jun 17 - 10:44 PM (#3860188)
Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Pete from seven stars link

A touching and mildly amusing tribute Al !