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15 May 17 - 06:04 PM (#3855309) Subject: BS: Ian Brady From: selby At long last the child killer Ian Brady has died the media are publishing obituary sent to him. The "gentleman refused to give details where his last victim lies and played the system for years. IMHO the bastard should have been executed years ago let's hope he'll exists and he suffers whilst he rots there |
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15 May 17 - 06:21 PM (#3855312) Subject: RE: BS: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Joe Offer There's a Wikipedia article on the Moors Murders, which took place 1963-1965. I never know how to respond to such things, but somehow I don't think execution is a just or effective response. -Joe- |
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15 May 17 - 06:24 PM (#3855314) Subject: RE: Obit: Ian Brady. Aged 79 From: GUEST,keberoxu suffer little children? |
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15 May 17 - 06:26 PM (#3855315) Subject: RE: Obit: Ian Brady. Aged 79 From: Steve Shaw Good riddance. |
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15 May 17 - 06:27 PM (#3855316) Subject: RE: BS: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw I agree with Joe. Though my reaction is good riddance. |
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15 May 17 - 07:04 PM (#3855324) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou 'Despite his mistakes in life...' He tortured a ten year-old little girl and recorded her terrified, anguished pleadings for her mother for his later sexual pleasure. Then he slit her throat. The recordings were played to a shocked jury at his trial. I wouldn't use the word 'mistakes' to describe his actions... The families of his victims are still serving their life-sentences of grief and horror. |
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15 May 17 - 07:11 PM (#3855325) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: alex s David O'Donnell, I think you made a typo. RIH Rot In Hell "Mistakes in life"!!! Are you crazy?? Just read the foul deeds this monster did. If you can without vomiting. Keith's mum died without knowing where he was buried because that sick bastard wouldn't tell. Stick your sanctimonious crap where the sun don't shine. |
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15 May 17 - 10:15 PM (#3855347) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Rapparee I can't say that I'm sorry he's gone. |
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15 May 17 - 10:25 PM (#3855348) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Richard Atkins No more cost to the tax payer then :>) |
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16 May 17 - 03:01 AM (#3855363) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton In cases of child torture and murder, the perpetrators have crossed the line in acceptable human behaviour. The death sentence should be retained for such crimes whether the perpetrators are of sound mind or not. Redemption would be impossible in the circumstances. |
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16 May 17 - 04:28 AM (#3855369) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw Good job you're not in charge, then. |
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16 May 17 - 05:26 AM (#3855376) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton What did keeping Brady alive accomplish? I suppose the greed of the media and the prurience of the public may have suffered! |
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16 May 17 - 05:42 AM (#3855379) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Iains As some of the offenses occurred when Britain still had capital punishment he should have been hanged. |
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16 May 17 - 05:54 AM (#3855380) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: DMcG The death penalty is a complex issue and I accept there are good arguments on both sides. I also accept that with or without the death penalty innocents can be killed. Nevertheless, even in cases like this I find myself opposed to it. |
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16 May 17 - 06:28 AM (#3855382) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle we are a better society for having gun control and not having the death sentence. deriving sensual satisfaction from violence and murder is best left to criminals like Brady. you can dress it up with quests for individual freedom, closure for victims, and justice. but that's what it is - sensual pleasure derived from the desecration of human flesh. Warden Howe of Sing Sing put his finger on it in his famous book about his years as a prison governor. its a human weakness - we are all prey to. we all find ourselves reading about executions and murders for enjoyment. sensual excitement...Warden Howe says he was besieged by people who had all sorts of wonderful reasons to enjoy the thrill of the execution chamber. And he imagined a live broadcast from there would have been compulsive listening for the entire nation. know your weakness, and shun it. |
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16 May 17 - 07:20 AM (#3855387) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw "The death penalty is a complex issue and I accept there are good arguments on both sides." I don't. |
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16 May 17 - 07:43 AM (#3855393) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jack Campin Theresa May must be pissed off. It would take the Queen dying to improve her electoral odds. No distraction value in Brady. |
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16 May 17 - 07:51 AM (#3855396) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Stu He suffered far more by being kept alive than he would have by being killed by the state. He didn't deserve mercy, but killing him lowers the state to his level, and our society should be better than that. The death penalty is revenge, not punishment. The world's a better place without him for sure. Good riddance. |
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16 May 17 - 07:55 AM (#3855398) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle the polls all say she is going to win anyway...still what do they know. |
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16 May 17 - 08:03 AM (#3855400) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou I'm not in favour of the death penalty. It is, as you say Stu, revenge. The main thing is to keep such evil and dangerous people safely incarcerated in a very secure place so they can't commit any more offences. Apparently, after serving many years in solitary confinement in various UK prisons, Brady managed to convince psychiatrists that he actually was insane, and after being diagnosed as a psychopath, was moved to Ashworth (high-security hospital for the criminally insane). After he decided he didn't like it there much, he admitted he had merely pretended to be insane, and begged to be sent to a Scottish prison so he could go on hunger strike and end his life. But the authorities refused to reconsider his diagnosis. The death penalty in UK was abolished just months before his sentencing. |
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16 May 17 - 08:25 AM (#3855406) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton It's not a matter of revenge at all people who commit such crimes have no place in human society. Keeping Brady alive served no useful purpose and the money could have been better spent. How many millions did it cost to keep Mr Brady? |
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16 May 17 - 08:32 AM (#3855408) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw Not as many millions as it does to keep hundreds of thousands of people with advanced dementia alive. You really are clueless, aren't you? |
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16 May 17 - 09:11 AM (#3855411) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Raggytash If the idea was to punish Brady for his appalling crimes then prison was a far greater punishment. If we as a nation condemn murder we cannot then execute people in the name of the state, if we do we condone murder. |
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16 May 17 - 10:08 AM (#3855415) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Rapparee You condone homicide, the killing of someone. Murder is a legal construct. |
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16 May 17 - 10:21 AM (#3855416) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Allan Conn I agree that if you against the death penalty in principle, like I am, then you are against it full stop. You can't put a monetary cost on things and someone would have been in that cell being looked after by those prison officers if he wasn't. As I understand he longed to die and in his later years seemingly begged to be allowed to be transferred from hospital to prison so he could die. So real life imprisonment wasn't a soft option for him anyway! |
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16 May 17 - 10:39 AM (#3855418) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw I can't bring myself to even begin to argue on that territory. Capital punishment simply can simply never be justified. |
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16 May 17 - 10:53 AM (#3855420) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Raggytash Raparee, you can paint it any colour you like, it is still murder, the taking of a life. In the case of the state a premeditated murder. |
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16 May 17 - 11:14 AM (#3855422) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: theleveller "What did keeping Brady alive accomplish?" A number of things, actually. While he was alive there was always a chance that he might disclose where Keith was buried. He spent his life in circumstances that can hardly have been easy, so his punishment was ongoing. It did not reduce our legal system and, by default, our society, to the role of judicial murderers. |
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16 May 17 - 11:51 AM (#3855424) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: leeneia I've noticed that people who advocate the death sentence never seem to think about the effect it has on those who have to carry it out. |
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16 May 17 - 12:56 PM (#3855434) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: DMcG I do mot support the death penalty, leeneia, but this book will give some insight, I expect. I am quite comfortable for Steve and others to think there are no good arguments in favour: it may just be a difference in terminology. I think that the arguments in favour of the death penalty need to be thought about seriously because it is a serious subject. Having thought about them I find them lacking and in the end they do not persuade me. Similarly the arguments opposed to the death penalty deserve to be treates seriously by those in favour of it, again because it is a serious subject that deserves being treated seriously. There is a lot of heat on other threads about evidence. For this question you need to be thinking what you want to achieve and then see what the evidence is. I did a short adult education course on the topic a decade or so ago and as far as I understand it the evidence is compatible with my opposition to the death penalty. |
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16 May 17 - 01:29 PM (#3855443) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Mr Red I was struggling with the concept of what we should have done with him and maybe The death penalty is revenge, not punishment. rings a few bells But he worked the system and must have got pleasure from that. And he was kept away from the other inmates. Witness what happened to Sutcliff when he encountered other prisoners. Not sure Brady was much punished, he could have been but any hint of ad hoc retribution would have been big news. The death penalty is revenge, that's for sure. It also is a Darwinian tactic. And I am sure very expensive with 10 years of appeals and incarceration. Opponents love to quote statistics (which make it true?) that it is not a deterrent. It is, but at what percentage? Life ain't binary! Myra Hindley yearned for freedom and tried to get a bit. She was punished, but also worked a few systems of her own, like being a gay lover in prison! Not binary either! |
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16 May 17 - 03:45 PM (#3855459) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler When some psycho has such an extreme mind set who knows what they see as a punishment. Society's judgement is not going to matter to them. It is reported that he had expressed a wish to die for many years but was basically kept from harm. |
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16 May 17 - 04:02 PM (#3855462) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton For most people who commit such crimes, I am sure death must be a welcome release....just imagine living such a horror. Keeping them alive is the real "revenge"...... cruel torment. As I have said already certain types of crime are beyond the pale, society should make sure that these people are removed permanently. What has the cost of dementia treatment to do with this issue Steve? "You really are clueless, aren't you?" ....there is no analogy. |
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16 May 17 - 04:29 PM (#3855469) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou Well I don't myself believe that Brady was living a horror inside prison. Firstly, he appeared to have no remorse, but on the contrary enjoyed controlling the Police and the Press by half-hinting he would tell where he'd buried Keith, then deciding not to say after all. He wrote to many journalists and had visits from various people. Secondly, 'lifers' in prison are allowed to have a huge number of items in their cells, including books, music systems, TV, hobby and craft materials, musical instruments, a computer and so on. I know this as I've visited an inmate in HMP Parkhurst, (a Category A prison) and the Officers told me it made searching cells very difficult having so much 'stuff' to wade through. There are also various classes and education opportunities, art and creative writing, a gym and sometimes even a swimming pool. Clean bedding is provided weekly, and all laundry is catered for. Food is adequate (tasted daily by the Governor) and there is always a Chaplain, Imam and Rabbi for spiritual counsel and worship. I wouldn't call any of this horrific. The only punishment it offers is one's lack of liberty. I wouldn't want them hung up by their toes and flogged daily, but prison life in UK isn't all that terrible. |
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16 May 17 - 04:47 PM (#3855475) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle what pisses me off is that they're devoting hours of tv time to him theres an hour long programme on channel 5 tonight. Derek Brimstone died the other week. A seminal character on the English folk scene. All the 70's folk comedians - Jasper Carrot, Billy Connolly, Mike Harding, Fred WEdlock - all claimed Derek as an influence> He made thousands and thousands of people laugh. Influenced hundreds of guitar and banjo players. was unstinting in his encouragement and help for young musicians. taught us hundreds of folksongs - everything from American folk blues to the Copper family. on top of that he was a beloved friend, a gentle husband and much loved father. what fuckwit is it decides that Brady gets an hours TV devoted to his life and achievements? |
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16 May 17 - 04:52 PM (#3855477) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou I expect it's because people are rather thrilled by the macabre details of his appalling murders. They can't get enough of it, and it is a bit sick. It'll be a nine days' wonder, then we can all forget about him. (Except the poor relatives and families of his young victims of course. They have to carry on living daily with the horror of it all.) |
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16 May 17 - 07:37 PM (#3855492) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: robomatic I don't see what is so wrong with taking revenge (through the justice system). The justice system was established so that the state could take over from personal acts of revenge and so eliminate private wars such as the feud between the Hatfields and Mccoys. I remember studying the Oresteia in college and admiring the idea that the law was ordained by Athena in order to solve intractable human problems like the cycle of retribution. I understand the reluctance of many who mistrust that anyone, even society as a whole, should have the power to ordain 'death' as a punishment. On the other hand, any organized set of laws or principles is bound to generate its counter-ethos. There are so-called human beings whose actions seem to pre-destine them to a dark end. Someone's gonna die, and if they are not stopped, they will take someone else's life. And if imprisoned, they will take someone's life in prison. A society reluctant to face this is likely to guarantee that the problem persists. This seems to be the current trend in Europe and the U.K. and most of the U.S. I only hope that when the pendulum swings back, it be moderate and not excessive. My understanding of the Biblical "eye-for-an-eye" and "life-for-a-life" was not that it maintain a culture of violence, but that it establish a limit to that violence." |
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16 May 17 - 10:08 PM (#3855508) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle the problem is, it doesn't limit violence. it lends it a proscenium arch. there was nothing the IRA would have loved more than to see the brit government execute one of its members during the 1970's. nothing THatcher would have liked better heroes and villain of thousand crappy rebel ballads. money rolling in from every bar from brum to boston, mass. heroic status assured on all sides. as Churchill said, grass grows over a battlefield, but not a scaffold. on your own shore - who was Timothy McVeigh, Sacco and Vanzetti? who were all the others? Star status assured!! as for pendulums - it would be hard to imagine how much further it could swing to the right from the position of HUntsville's factory line of death. Capital punishment teaches nothing except that if humans don't fit into our society -its alright to kill them, the story is the same from Jesus to Ted Bundy. sociologists have pointed out for years that most of our criminals come from poverty. in the USA - you have nearly a third of your people living in poverty, and they have access to every kind of instrument of murder available. i understand -its easier to blame the poor than to sort out your problems - but stop dressing it up in sophistry and fine words. Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition. |
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17 May 17 - 02:26 AM (#3855525) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton " Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition." Very well put Al, but the rest of your post is apples and oranges I'm afraid. Monsters like Brady must not be confused with political ideologists, his treatment has nothing to do with issues like the overthrow of the political system. People who commit crimes such as those of Brady are the embodiment of evil, and should have no place in society. |
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17 May 17 - 03:10 AM (#3855527) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Mr Red decides that Brady gets an hours TV devoted to his life and achievements? Well it does serve as a warning for the public to be alert. These days, with mobile phones/cameras it is so much easier. And there was a lorry driver who witnessed what (from his description) was the pair probably carrying things to bury on the moor. Apparently he was not believed because the police said Brady didn't drive! On the basis he didn't have a licence for cars. They had a car. Let us hope policing has improved. What didn't come out in the documentary was unsolved disappearances and the timings with Brady/Hindley's known crimes. They hinted at gaps and how such criminals usually operate - ie get bolder and more frequent. Not names but at least timings would have been instructive - instead of the repetitions. |
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17 May 17 - 03:41 AM (#3855530) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou You're right about the poor policing Mr Red. My husband had the documentary on TV last night, and I caught the bit where one of the searchers on the moors found one of the bodies in a shallow grave. He'd noticed a stick poking out of a slight depression, and went to investigate. His superior officer told him to leave it, as it was probably only a dead sheep. He replied that, if so, the sheep was wearing clothes. It sounded to me as if, understandably, they were fed up with tramping around in the cold over such a huge terrain. But it was rather cavalier of the officer to have that attitude. They were, after all, searching for people's dead children. |
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17 May 17 - 04:26 AM (#3855537) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw A brilliant post, Al. I salute you, sir. |
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17 May 17 - 04:36 AM (#3855539) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Teribus Apparently as reported in the press the cost of keeping Brady amounted to £8 million. |
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17 May 17 - 06:32 AM (#3855551) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: DMcG Such figures are always less clear than they first appear. Does this represent the incremental cost of detaining Brady or the total costs of everything associated with him? For example does it include the total salary of his psychiatric team or only that fraction of time associated with treating him, since they presumably also did other things. How is the cost of the building in which he was housed treated? Are people claiming the wing would not have been built if he did not exist? I am not saying the £8m is right or wrong, but it is good idea not to just take it at face value. |
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17 May 17 - 06:45 AM (#3855553) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Stu "People who commit crimes such as those of Brady are the embodiment of evil, and should have no place in society." Agree, but in prison they are out of society (or should be if the prison is run properly, and why I don't agree prisoners should get the vote). Killing people isn't the answer, and there are no winners in capital punishment. It demeans us and causes terrible suffering for a lot of other innocent people who are involved through no fault of their own. Brady was a piece of shit, he played the likes of Lord Longford like a fiddle and whatever hell he's in now, he fully deserves it. Killing him though? Not an answer in any civilised society. |
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17 May 17 - 08:25 AM (#3855560) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle 'Monsters like Brady must not be confused with political ideologists, his treatment has nothing to do with issues like the overthrow of the political system.' do you really think the parents of children killed in the MacDonalds in WArrington, or those of children killed outside the FBI offices Oklahoma gave a damn how committed the bombers were to their political position? |
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17 May 17 - 09:52 AM (#3855571) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jack Campin Executing people has always been a very expensive business. In Scotland, local jurisdictions used to try capital cases, but they kicked the responsibility upstairs to central government as soon as they got the chance - the bills were crippling. (I think the last one paid for by local government was around 1800). And Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England, let alone the present-day US. |
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17 May 17 - 12:40 PM (#3855583) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton There is a subtle difference Al. |
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17 May 17 - 01:31 PM (#3855595) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle too bleeding subtle for me... |
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17 May 17 - 01:56 PM (#3855600) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou Jack, I believe ALbert Pierrepoint (Chief Executioner for Great Britain) carried out most of the Scottish death sentences in the 20th Century. Even he eventually decided that the death penalty was not the answer, and resigned his position. His autobiography is extremely interesting but completely chilling in its descriptions of the actual procedure. It shows exactly why taking a person's life in cold blood on behalf of the State is an appalling act, no matter what their crime. For what it's worth, my opinion is that Brady was a psychopath, incapable of empathetic feeling. He killed because it was 'interesting' and, like many psychopaths, he enjoyed the control it gave him. As long as he was safely contained for the rest of his life, he no longer represented a danger to the public. It is expensive to keep people in prison, but cold-bloodedly snuffing out a criminal's life makes one no better than a psychopath in my view. |
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17 May 17 - 04:37 PM (#3855617) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton I'm sure any of he child victim's parents would have been quite happy to administer an injection. Let's not shed any tears for the executioner. |
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17 May 17 - 04:42 PM (#3855619) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton Would you call parents like those, psychopaths? |
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18 May 17 - 03:11 AM (#3855654) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Mr Red Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England sounds like a proto-statistic to me. Let us see if we can enlighten. Scotland is less populous - try %. Scotland had a ternary murder law. "Unproven". Before the repeal of capital punishment there was a lot of debate about how "murder" was defined and collected. And the "manslaughter" charge was used more often in the run-up. A sure fire bona fide statistical fact (as in artifact). Statistics depend on the question you ask. And the answer you choose to elicit therefrom. I am not in favour of the death penalty BTW. But I did smile at the (then) comment: "imprison them and indoctrinate them until they fully understand the import of their misdemeanour. Then kill them" |
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18 May 17 - 05:13 AM (#3855669) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle Not psychopaths of course. But would you be in a balanced state of mind? |
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18 May 17 - 05:21 AM (#3855671) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: banjoman Thought about all of this for a while, and although I am against capital punishment, I can understand how people with opposing views may feel about this monster. However, if there is something after death, and I believe that there is, then he will be facing the ultimate judgement. |
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18 May 17 - 09:51 AM (#3855697) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Stu "I'm sure any of he child victim's parents would have been quite happy to administer an injection." Naturally they would (almost people would), but that would be revenge. We have a legal system to stop revenge being taken by individuals and let us as a society punish those who transgress our laws. "Let's not shed any tears for the executioner." Difficult to understand this comment, as it seems to indicate a complete lack of empathy and compassion. Executioners and their teams suffer; no human can go through the process of taking the life of another without leaving deep and lasting emotional scars. |
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18 May 17 - 10:19 AM (#3855698) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: SPB-Cooperator Use of the death penalty would have brought society down to Brady's level. |
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18 May 17 - 11:21 AM (#3855710) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: robomatic I think it is pretentious to maintain that we are at some 'other' level. A system of laws is one of the great achievements of civilization, BUT it creates a sub-system (gaming the system with such techniques as corruption of officials and jury tampering) designed to circumvent those very laws and will make severe inroads on the original system. There has to be a way to self-correct. Watching the watchers. |
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18 May 17 - 12:15 PM (#3855714) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton I am against the death penalty in principle, but the reason this penalty was abandoned seems to have been the possibility of rehabilitation into society of even those who commit a capital offence. In Brady's case and the others who torture and murder our children rehabilitation is out of the question. The crimes are so heinous as to make these people forever outside human society. These sorts of crimes are a "crossing of the Rubicon", between normal human behaviour with all its flaws and sheer evil. Keeping Brady and his kind alive serves no purpose whatsoever. |
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18 May 17 - 12:37 PM (#3855718) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jack Campin Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England sounds like a proto-statistic to me. Let us see if we can enlighten. Scotland is less populous - try %. Don't be a patronizing twat. You knew I meant exactly that. It was so obvious there was absolutely no need for me to spell it out. The number of executions per head in Scotland was never anywhere near as high as it was in England. The difference is well over an order of magnitude, particularly in the late 18th century. Bad news for execution broadsheet writers because there was so little to write about. (That's how I came to find that out). Scotland had a ternary murder law. "Unproven". Irrelevant. There can't have been as many as 10 "unproven" verdicts in murder trials ever. |
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18 May 17 - 01:33 PM (#3855725) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou I've always wondered if those who commit heinous crimes aren't actually very ill and mentally abnormal. No totally sane person would do such things. Many (though not all) have had appallingly abusive childhoods or lived in severely dysfunctional families. Some may have neurological problems of the brain and so on. I don't think one can say a person deserves to die if this is the case. Since it's terribly difficult to know either way, one can't take the risk of administering the death penalty simply because one feels vengeful. As to the effect on the executioner, I can only refer again to Pierrepoint's autobiography. I've read it many times, attempting to understand the man, his motives and his mindset. He seems to have been almost 'psychopathic' himself in that he sincerely believed he had a 'vocation' to dispatch the condemned 'as humanely as possible', and while doing his job correctly, he never appeared to have considered what a hugely unacceptable thing he was doing, snuffing out more than 400 people's lives in cold blood on the end of his rope. He comes across as self-important and rather pleased with himself, which I find chilling. To me, he was as much a murderer as his 'victims'. |
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18 May 17 - 06:01 PM (#3855762) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Raggytash I too have read Pierreponts book, chilling is indeed a good word to describe it. However I think he was trying to exonerate himself by saying he didn't believe in capital punishment. Too little and far too late. |
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18 May 17 - 06:37 PM (#3855771) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw Harry Allen, the hangman who hanged James Hanratty, among many others, was the landlord of the Junction Inn at Besses. My mum never fails to remind me every time I take her to Marks and Sparks Simply Food in Prestwich. The pub isn't there any more, and there's a big Tesco near there now on the former site of Prestwich lunatic asylum. People round there still say "Eee, yer bloody drivin' me mad. I'll bloody end up in Prestwich at this rate..." |
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18 May 17 - 09:54 PM (#3855802) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: robomatic Big Al: I liked your contribution so much that I'd like to skeletonize if for my response: the problem is, it doesn't limit violence. it lends it a proscenium arch. I looked up 'proscenium arch' and concluded you were saying that the Biblical injunction regarding an 'eye for an eye' and a 'life for life' was more recommendation than limitation. You may be right, but one of the great points of quoting Scripture is you can select what you mean and I mean the latter! I personally think there are cases where punishment cannot be proportionate, such as the case with animal cruelty, serial murder, murder-for-hire, arson, Orson Welles' character in 'The Third Man' diluting medicine, but in general you don't execute people for petty crimes, you consider backgrounds, physical and mental factors, motivations, etc. there was nothing the IRA would have loved more than to see the brit government execute one of its members during the 1970's. nothing THatcher would have liked better heroes and villain of thousand crappy rebel ballads. money rolling in from every bar from brum to boston, mass. heroic status assured on all sides. I don't know if this is really true. Bob Dylan made a hero out of Hurricane while he was quite alive and probably indirectly aided in his getting freed. as Churchill said, grass grows over a battlefield, but not a scaffold. I don't get the point. A better point is that no one forgets where the hatchet is buried. on your own shore - who was Timothy McVeigh, Sacco and Vanzetti? who were all the others? Star status assured!! I think Timothy McVeigh got what he deserved, the case against Sacco and Vanzetti would not pass muster in this day and age, and a significant number of young Americans have no idea who those people are. as for pendulums - it would be hard to imagine how much further it could swing to the right from the position of HUntsville's factory line of death. Really. We have a clown for a President right now. Impeach him and you'll find the guy next in line will be politically proficient. You have no idea. Capital punishment teaches nothing except that if humans don't fit into our society -its alright to kill them, the story is the same from Jesus to Ted Bundy. That is an exaggeration, but considering the continuum of human thought and behavior, it makes sense that at the extremes there will be people who practise mayhem and murder not as a last resort, but as an opening act.. sociologists have pointed out for years that most of our criminals come from poverty. in the USA - you have nearly a third of your people living in poverty, and they have access to every kind of instrument of murder available. Let's go back to Ted Bundy; he is at very least an exception to your argument of 'social disease'. I am not suggesting that we go back to the institutionalizing of Jean Valjean, but definitely the evisceration of Jack the Ripper. i understand -its easier to blame the poor than to sort out your problems - but stop dressing it up in sophistry and fine words. I deny that I've done either. Some of my kinfolk came out of urban ghettos that had a lot of old fashioned swiping off apple carts and gang activity that was neighborhood related, but nothing like the drug-related kill over a pair of running shoes of the present day. Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition. Well stated, but who would have missed him if he'd been executed and gone lo these many years. I have a friend who is smarter than me (which does not require genius). He is against the death penalty but he is a gun owner and would defend his wife and family to the point of shooting to kill. He just doesn't want the State to have that power. "How do you reconcile the fact that you're willing to take a life but you don't want the State to do it?" I ask him. "Easy," he replies, "I'm a hypocrite!" |
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18 May 17 - 10:36 PM (#3855807) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle i'm sorry. i wasn't trying to be cryptic. i'm not sure my thoughts are anything except the ramblings of an old man - i am flattered that you think they are worth analysis. Thank you Robomatic. Can i send you my album in appreciation? pm me your address. the proscenium arch is the arch over the stage in an old fashioned theatre. What i was trying to say was that the intention of capital punishment was to theatricalise it. i think this was the intention of public execution - to provide a grisly spectacle to show other people that being a wrongdoer wasn't a great career choice. and the only problem with this is that getting the starring role in multi million pound production does have a certain allure. that starring role...i remember McVeigh.. i don't remember the his co defendants, i don't know the names of any of his victims. that's what i was getting at. that's what CP has conferred upon him. |
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18 May 17 - 11:01 PM (#3855809) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: robomatic Big Al: Thank you right back atya. I love the threads where folks can eloquently express their disagreements. I wouldn't apologize for anything you said. I believe a little effort on my part spent in understanding a point is a good investment. |
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19 May 17 - 02:12 AM (#3855824) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton Perhaps a new beginning for the forum? Well said Robomatic. |
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19 May 17 - 06:51 AM (#3855867) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Iains I find it difficult to reconcile the views here that are largely against capital punishment with the fact that our armed forces are expected to inflict wholesale murder on civilian populations in places like Syria without even a UN mandate to give a perceived legitimacy. What is the greater crime? to hang a guilty man or blow innocent civilians to pieces with the excuse of collateral damage or deliberately targeting Syrian troops in the pursuit of an illegal war. Does the wearing of a uniform grant exemtion from crime? Is it legal for a state to pursue a war without UN sanction.? Are certain US presidents and UK prime ministers nothing less that so far untouchable war crimminals? The deaths on their hands are in the thousands, Brady's many orders of magnitude less. |
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19 May 17 - 08:58 AM (#3855891) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle War is different! A Shakespeare said, Cry havoc! And let slip th dogs of war... War is the state of ultimate violence and savagery. The enemy that must be downed and subdued and forced to surrender totally - whatever the cost, whatever the level of behaviour and violence one must descend to. Simply whatever! moreover if you're not prepared to do exactly that - don't go to war. its not fair on the guys who fight and put their lives on the line for you. don't do it - just because the armaments manufacturers have paid for your election campaign and you owe them one. a civilised society is the opposite to war. that's us trying to get it right. |
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19 May 17 - 11:13 AM (#3855910) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jack Campin Meanwhile, it seems nobody wants to be home to Brady's ashes. If it was up to me I'd fly-tip them over the new statue of Thatcher in London. Or mix them into a shipment of burger meat heading for McDonalds. |
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19 May 17 - 11:28 AM (#3855911) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Iains Big Al, I can concede war is different in some circumstances, Waging undeclared, unauthorised wars across the globe to satisfy unknown agendas and without a UN mandate is simply illegal and no different to any other form of murder. The crimminals should be held accountable, or does the mythical war on terror allow for any response including ignoring the Geneva Convention on war prisoners rights eg waterboarding and extraordinary rendition of prisoners to more primitive regimes for interrogation and keeping them captive on prison ships. Perhaps it is time politicians were made accountable for their actions and required to clear minefields and defuse ieds by way of punishment. |
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19 May 17 - 12:54 PM (#3855926) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou It seems his ashes will NOT be scattered on Saddleworth Moor. (The cheeky sod. How arrogant to imagine anyone would have allowed that!) and Glasgow have categorically stated they won't be letting them be deposited anywhere near Glasgow. The crematorium managers of wherever his remains are dealt with will have to organise something. Suggestions... Lavatory? Municipal refuse tip? |
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19 May 17 - 02:33 PM (#3855938) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Teribus "Waging undeclared, unauthorised wars across the globe to satisfy unknown agendas and without a UN mandate is simply illegal and no different to any other form of murder." - Iains So Al-Qaeda's war is illegal. The Jihad on the part of ISIS is illegal. Both are "undeclared, unauthorised wars across the globe to satisfy unknown agendas" that are being waged and as such those participating have to be challenged and countered whenever and wherever by every means at our disposal. On the subject of minefields and IEDs - Russia should have been made to pay the costs of clearing the 15 million mines they spread across Afghanistan. Same for Cuba in Angola and Argentina on the Falkland Islands. |
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19 May 17 - 03:11 PM (#3855941) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: robomatic I think one of the points of the creditable Michael Kitchen series "Foyle's War" (set in England during WWII) is that, with blood flowing in red rivers across the Channel, yet individual deaths in England must be researched and the culprit found under law. And I can't hold back on the quote, (I've heard attributed to Stalin, but don't know for sure) "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". Regarding ashes. There is a gentleman in The States going from ballpark to ballpark and flushing the ashes of his pal, a onetime plumber. If it can be done for a good man, why not a bad man? The only difference is motive. |
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19 May 17 - 03:55 PM (#3855947) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw You forgot Israel in Lebanon, Teribus. |
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19 May 17 - 04:45 PM (#3855954) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Iains Teribus: Al quaeda and Isis are hardly unknown agendas. I believe they call it a fight against the enemies of Islam( I do not believe Jihad is entirely the correct term) You are also very selective in your choice of minefields, how many were spread during the first Gulf War, and how many from WW2 still pose a threat. Why stop at minefields? A far greater long term threat is posed by depleted uranium. The western Alliance has problems recognising the problem, let alone being prepared to clean up their mess that poses a genetic problem for generations. http://www.wise-uranium.org/dhap992.html |
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19 May 17 - 08:40 PM (#3855977) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "Russia should have been made to pay the costs of clearing the 15 million mines they spread across Afghanistan. " Selective as usual Teriibus "Some 288 million cluster munitions and about 75 million unexploded bombs were left across Laos after the war ended. From 1996–2009, more than 1 million items of UXO were destroyed, freeing up 23,000 hectares of land. Between 1999 and 2008, there were 2,184 casualties (including 834 deaths) from UXO incidents" "In the aftermath of the 2006 war between Israel and Lebanon, it is estimated that southern Lebanon is littered with one million undetonated cluster bombs" Peacetime pollution According to US Environmental Protection Agency documents released in late 2002, UXO at 16,000 domestic inactive military ranges within the United States pose an "imminent and substantial" public health risk and could require the largest environmental cleanup ever, at a cost of at least US$14 billion. Some individual ranges cover 500 square miles (1,300 km2), and, taken together, the ranges comprise an area the size of Florida. "On Joint Base Cape Cod (JBCC) on Cape Cod, Massachusetts, decades of artillery training have contaminated the only drinking water for thousands of surrounding residents. A costly UXO recovery effort is under way." "UXO on US military bases has caused problems for transferring and restoring Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) land. The Environmental Protection Agency's efforts to commercialize former munitions testing grounds are complicated by UXO, making investments and development risky.[citation needed] UXO cleanup in the US involves over 10 million acres (40,000 km2) of land and 1,400 different sites. Estimated cleanup costs are tens of billions of dollars. It costs roughly $1,000 to demolish a UXO on site. Other costs include surveying and mapping, removing vegetation from the site, transportation, and personnel to manually detect UXOs with metal detectors. Searching for UXOs is tedious work and often 100 holes are dug to every 1 UXO found. Other methods of finding UXOs include digital geophysics detection with land and airborne systems" It seems that it's OK to pollute the planet with unexplored bombs and mines if you've got "God on your side" Why do you rabid righties insist on making these discussions a soapbox for your rabid-right politics? Nice to se the hang 'em and flog em brigade are still around so long after hanging was found to be an act of barbarism. Wonder if Ireland's problems would have been solved if they'd hanged the Guildford four or The Birmingham Six when they'd been found "guilty" of evil crimes. As sick as Brady's crimes were, they didn't come anywhere near the State sponsored ritual murder that debased humanity for as long as it did. It was primitive barbarism when it was practiced and it remains that when it is sill advocated No human being or human society should ever again give itself the right to deliberately take life in the way that it once did - that is true evil Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 02:59 AM (#3856005) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Teribus "how many were spread during the first Gulf War" 2,592 FASCAM landmines laid in one small specific area as a defensive measure during the battle of Khafji "TF Shepherd requested the FASCAM minefield be laid at grid QS63056235. Batteries Q, R, and S each fire 16 rounds of RAAM [Remote Anti-Armor Mine] long duration and 4 rounds of ADAMs [Area Denial Artillery Munition3] long duration." 1,314 Gator munitions (Aerial sowed minefield cluster bombs) deployed during Desert Storm. An average Gator minefield covers an area approximately 200 x 650 meters.23 This is predicated on the delivery of 6 Gator dispensers, each containing 72 AT and 22 AP mines, by 1 Gator sortie. For planning purposes, two Gator sorties are considered sufficient to fix or block a typical adversary battalion, depending on the orientation of the minefield to the target battalion's axis of movement. In the Gulf War, Gator munitions were used primarily to interdict, that is, prevent or hinder enemy use of an area or route for supply, communications, or movement. Areas subjected to these strikes were plotted and advancing Coalition Forces were instructed to avoid those areas. As those areas were by-passed EOD units were responsible for marking them for future clearance. To put this into perspective there were 210,000 unguided aerial munitions dropped on Iraq during the first Gulf War. You are right Jom I did not mention the US in Laos as the US in Laos are paying for the clean up - the Russians in Afghanistan, the Cubans in Angola and the Argentines in the Falklands are NOT. |
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20 May 17 - 03:38 AM (#3856014) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "You are right Jim I did not mention the US in Laos as the US in Laos are paying for the clean up " You are right in saying you didn't mention it - you have yet to mention that it took thirty years to begin to get round to it and it took nearly another twenty for America in the shape of President Obama to recognised the HUMAN CARNAGE which was the consequence of that butchery. You have yet to mention the horrific results of military testing and maneuvering that has left so much of America a minefield - literally. Much easier to concentrate your energies elsewhere. Jom" Still as insecure of your arguments as ever I see - nice to know my arguments are still giving you cause for alarm - keep it up - life wouldn't be anywhere near as entertaining if you tried treating those who disagreed with you as equals!! Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 04:02 AM (#3856022) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Teribus Tell me Jom do you EVER critically read what you write before posting? Now on the Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam thing - you came out with this in your latest: "you have yet to mention that it took thirty years to begin to get round to it" Now could that possibly have been due the regimes, and the attitudes of those regimes towards the USA, that were in place in those countries during those years? Never the less the US are paying for the clean up the others I mentioned are not and never will. On live fire range clearance as quoted in your own post that originally mentioned the problem the US Government are paying for that and programmes are in place to clear those areas. Tell me Jom do you think that the US Government are the only ones that have live fire ranges on their territory? What about Russia? Where was it that they did their atmospheric nuclear testing? Where did they test fire their weapons (Cluster bombs and DU munitions)? What information do you have on their clean up efforts? Or are you, yourself being a little selective in your condemnation. On the Russians do you know what they are doing about the 34 nuclear reactors from ships and submarines that they just beached and abandoned in the Kara Sea instead of disposing of them safely and responsibly? |
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20 May 17 - 04:25 AM (#3856024) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "Now could that possibly have been due the regimes, and the attitudes of those regimes towards the USA, " So you have to kowtow to mass-murdering states before they offer reparation for their mass murder This inhuman garbage should never have been dropped on people in the first place, no matter what political shade they were and it should never have been left there to blow the limbs of civilians, whoever was in charge It was an act of groos inhumanity by a so called "civilised" regime in the first place and it leaves little room to condemn other political systems when that is the manner in which so called "civilised" nations behave towards Third World peoples These wars were simple political butchery to suit western interests in the first place as are the oil wars that are still happening And guess who profits from the manufacture of this filth - right first time "Western democracies" And no there's a new kid on the block "Israeli manufactured weapon systems have been allegedly sold to many regimes with controversial human rights records (e.g. Guatemala during the Guatemala Civil War,[14][15] South Africa during Apartheid, El Salvador during the Salvadoran Civil War, Iran during the reign of the Shah, Ethiopia during the Ethiopian Civil War and more recently South Sudan during the South Sudanese Civil War)." "Tell me Jom do you think that the US Government are the only ones that have live fire ranges on their territory?" So ****** what? Does that excuse leaving live ammunition around for people to lose limbs from? It will be interesting to see if your Donald Duck puts in a programme to clear the filth up - can't see that happening - can you? Two "Joms" in that one Your insecurity appears to be intensifying as you paint yourself into a tighter corner Keep it up. Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 06:31 AM (#3856042) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Teribus Jim Carroll - PM Date: 20 May 17 - 04:25 AM "Now could that possibly have been due the regimes, and the attitudes of those regimes towards the USA, " So you have to kowtow to mass-murdering states before they offer reparation for their mass murder Always full scale deflection with you Jom isn't it, that and opening your trap and just letting a uninterrupted flow of complete and utter bullshit flow out. Let's take this bit of nonsense: "So you have to kowtow to mass-murdering states before they offer reparation for their mass murder" If you wish to clear up the mess then you require masses of co-operation, nothing whatsoever to do with kowtowing you imbecile. Now what could possibly get in the way of establishing the required co-operation? The ideology of the governments concerned perhaps. I also that that the problem posed concerned unexploded munitions so strictly speaking up until the moment the explode they will have killed nobody - I would have thought that anyone would have both recognised realised that difference - you couldn't because you are in spittle-flecked rant mode. |
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20 May 17 - 06:50 AM (#3856045) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "that and opening your trap and just letting a uninterrupted flow of complete and utter bullshit flow out." Always avoiding answering oints by insulting " The ideology of the governments concerned perhaps. " Did they offer reperation - no they didn't Would reperation ever have been refused - no it wouldn't - the victims would have welcomed assistance As I said - this garbage should never have been showered down on Thisrd World peasants in the first place and those who did so are, as far as I am concerned the worst of the worst. It was the West's opposition to the ideologies of the people trying to lead their own lives in these countries that inspired the invasions by the U.S. in the first place. Your defence of this is the same as your defence of Israeli terorrissm - fall into line or we'll bomb the shit out of you - Vietnam, Laos - Cambodia and earlier Egypt, Ghana, South America and other parts of the former empires - anywhere that wouldn't toe the line. How far are you prepared to go to defend this shite? How was it you described carcinogenic Agent Orange - crop spray? You are one sicko - as are all your kind Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 07:03 AM (#3856046) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: bobad Israeli terorrissm [sic] To sickos like you self defense is terrorism only when it's Jews defending themselves. |
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20 May 17 - 07:44 AM (#3856054) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "To sickos like you self defense is terrorism only when it's Jews defending themselves." To sickos like you the Jews are resposible for the war crimes of the Israeli regime You are the only one to have accused the Jews of anything Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 10:01 AM (#3856077) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll Back to the subject in hand - Capital Punishment We have in our collection, a smallish and extremely readable book on the subject which I would make compulsory to the teaching of twentieth century British history; it is entitled 'The Fatal Gallows Tree" by John Dean Potter It lays out a thumbnail history o capital punishment, with all its barbarities and finished up with a descrpton of the fight to have it abolished. It doesn't dwell on its horrors, but it doesn't have to - the barbaric practice needed no embelishment The last chapter remains one of the finest condemnations of the practice and its ending Then came the third case. At 9 p.m. on Easter Sunday in 1955 a night club hostess, Ruth Ellis, shot her lover, racing-car driver, David Blakely, outside the Magdala public house in South Hill Park, Hampstead. She was a silly good-time girl who killed Blakely in a jealous frenzy because he had jilted her. She fired four shots and later told her legal advisers that, as she had killed the man she loved, she wanted to die and join him. They obviously hoped that in court she would make the perfect cxcuse—her mind was a blank and the last thing she remembered was picking up the revolver. That would have extricated her from the fatal situation of deliberate murder by firing more than one shot. This she did not do. In court she made it obvious that her intention was to kill. She presumably said this deliberately to court the gallows. Unfortunately 48 hours before she was due to be hanged with the gallows looming, she became hysterical and changed her story. Frantic appeals were made to the Home Secretary, Gwilym Lloyd George, to reprieve her. He was not the most humane or imaginative of men and saw no reason to let her live. She was hanged by Albert Pierrepoint at Holloway Prison on 13 June 1955. At the formal inquest after her execution the pathologist Keith Simpson said, 'There was a strong odour of brandy surrounding the body.' The Coroner, Mr H. Milner Heime, asked the Governor of Holloway, Dr Charity Taylor, if it were usual to give a little brandy to the condemned before execution. She replied, Ί don't know.' Later the Home Office admitted it could be given at the dis¬cretion of the medical officer. The formal verdict was returned that the 'execution was expeditiously and humanely carried out'. Fine, blanketing words. But what dreadful Edith Thompson- type scene lay behind the last-minute administering of brandy to the unhappy woman ? An even more gruesome footnote came in a letter to The Lancet on 20 August 1955 which said the execution of Ruth Ellis 'represented the total degradation of a human being'. Five weeks after her execution, Dr I. H. Milner of London, N.7 wrote: "Ruth Ellis a few weeks before had had a miscarriage. Because of depression and desire to die she actually assisted towards her own liquidation. Her murder was tantamount to suicide—while the balance of her mind was disturbed. It was disturbed because of a severe psychological trauma suffered by an acutely unstable woman after a recent miscarriage. In almost any other country in the world she would have been shown sympathy and under¬standing. It is the custom to do so in this country when a mother is involved in the death of an infant." One strange piece of information which the doctor gave as part of her degradation was that 'the condemned woman on the morning of execution was made to change into canvas under¬clothing'. (This practice was common with the execution of women as it was a regular occurrence for women's insides to drop out as their bodies jerked to a halt at the end of the noose) Three centuries had elapsed but nothing much had changed since Ann Greene was revived from the gallows in 1650 after being hanged for having a stillborn baby. But hysterical, im¬moral Ruth Ellis served her pitiful purpose. She was the last woman to be hanged in England. No one could face such a scene again. There is no doubt that these three hangings which should never have taken place were the death blow to the traditionalists. A climate of opinion was building up, like the one over a century before which swept away hanging for theft of a few shillings. Yet the opposition remained the same, unchanged in 150 years. In 1956 when a motion for abolition was put forward, the House of Lords voted against it by a big majority—238 to 95. The New Statesman wrote savagely: "From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt,' the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution. It took nearly another 10 years to get the Bill passed. While the last Bill for abolition was placed before the House of Com¬mons hanging was suspended—and never renewed." The last two men to be hanged in England stepped simul¬taneously on to two different gallows. On 13 August 1964, 21- year-old Peter Anthony Allen was hanged at Walton Jail, Liver¬pool, while at the same time 24-year-old Gynne Owen Evans was executed at Strangeways Jail in Manchester. Both had been found guilty of the capital murder of 53-year-old John West, who had been found dead in his home in Kings Avenue, Seaton, Cumberland. It was a brutal squalid killing in the course of a robbery. It had no significance except, like the Waltham Blacks in an earlier context, it made a footnote in history. Someone had to be the last person to be hanged—and on that August morning it was those two young thugs. Thus, almost anti-climatically, ended the most grisly chapter in English history. The anti-hanging motion put forward by Sydney Silverman, M.P., was backed by politicians of both parties and houses. One of its leading supporters was the Lord Chancellor, Lord Gardiner, who refused a judgeship because he would not impose the death penalty. The House of Lords, much to most people's surprise, passed it with a majority of 100 votes. After a thousand years the story of English hanging had come to an end. It had gone the way of boiling, branding, beheading and the burning of witches. At last civilization had triumphed." Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 10:09 AM (#3856079) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Raggytash Just an observation, what on earth have the last few posts got to do with Brady. Beautiful sunny day again here on the West coast of Galway |
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20 May 17 - 12:53 PM (#3856107) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll I didn't raise the issue of Capital punishment Raggy - I think it was Ake, closely followed by Iains Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 01:14 PM (#3856111) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou I think when one is considering the Moors Murders, it's only natural that the question of the death penalty will be raised. The crimes were so abhorrent that many, many people in UK (and elsewhere!) have expressed their opinion that it would have been better to execute the perpetrators rather than let them live the remainder of their lives in prison at the State's expense. And of course, the natural consequence of these thoughts is, "What DO we do with such people?" Regarding Pierrepoint, I have his book in front of me at this moment, and I quote from the Preface:_ "I do not now believe that any one of the hundreds of executions I carried out has in any way acted as a deterrent against future murder. Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge." |
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20 May 17 - 01:28 PM (#3856117) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton Sen, one is advocating that the death penalty would be any kind of deterrent to people like Brady. My point is that they should be disposed of, removed from society for having committed heinous crimes against very young children. I believe there is such a thing as evil and people like Brady are the embodiment of it. Such evil people do not respond to deterrent or rehabilitation, they are influenced only by their diseased minds and a need to harm the innocent. |
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20 May 17 - 02:40 PM (#3856126) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "My point is that they should be disposed of, removed from society " Then you are no different from Brady If it is evil to kill, it is evil to kill You can't pick and mix this one. Like homosexuality, society has now come to terms with that fact As usual, you continue you blunder your way through your self-planted primeval forests "Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge." Absolutely - the most honest statement that man ever made It's not as if we have a justice system that can guarantee delivering the right verdict - you could ask Tim Evans if they hadn't hanged him Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 03:39 PM (#3856140) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton You miss the point Jim, I am against capital punishment in principle, but people like Brady are very special cases. Everyone including the perpetrators of such horrors would benefit from the demise of these evil people. Your post is a ragbag of clichés and fallacies, it does not make any sense in this context |
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20 May 17 - 04:25 PM (#3856154) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle How would ANYONE benefit? He'd be dead. We'd have done something wrong. Our children would have seen us do something bad and think its okay to kill, instead of seeing us be revolted by the idea. I suppose Albert Pierrepoint's successor would have made a few quid, but they usually need people down at Tesco to collect the trollies - he could do that instead. Think Ake! As my Uncle Harold from St Helens, used to say, 'Think on'. |
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20 May 17 - 08:01 PM (#3856200) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "You miss the point Jim, I am against capital punishment in principle, but people like Brady are very special cases" I don't miss your point at all Ake Nobody is a special case or everybody is a special case What's the difference between what Brady did and what the Yanks did to children in Vietnam or wherever they dropped their filth - or the systematic slaughter of civilians in Gaza, or those who dropped the bombs on two towns in Japan and caused generations of deformed children, or on Dresden? The fact that they did it from a distance doesn't make any of the victims any less dead What makes Brady a special case - the children killed by pushing buttons died just as horribly? I have no doubt you will put up an argument for not punishing state sponsored deaths just as you are putting up an argument for State sponsored ritual killings. Do you suggest that those who sent Evans or all of those who died innocent of any crime should be punished for sending an innocent man to his death, How about the policemen who rammed Blair Peach's head into the corner of a brick wall and smashed his skull open How about the Anders Breivik who slaughtered all those young peope yet who you claimed was aaying something worth listening to? And what about all those "liberals" or disease carrying homosexuals you are constantly ranting about... surely there's room fro them on your "£special case" list? If all life is sacrosanct taking a life is an act of evil, whoever has done what At least in the States they don't make any pretence of what capital punishment is about - revenge, pure and simple That's why they let the relatives of the victims sit and watch the execution. That debases us all as human beings and as a society What makes me laugh in all of this is those who scream th loudest for blood are the ones who are supposed to believe in the sanctity of and respect for human life - the Christian who preach brotherly love but spout hatred and retribution for anybody different Your not out of that particular closet yet, bit it's only a matter o ime... The only possible advatage of your blood lust would be that it would probably have an impact on the unemployment figures - we'd need a hell of a lot of hangmen if people like you got to select those they thought fit to be executed. If I ever got round to making a "special cases" I can think of a few on this forum who would be near the top - but I really am not that sort of girl, so rest easy As usual, you creep stealthily around all the points I put up without addressing them honestly - just stopping to throw stones from a safe distance in your usual heroic and thoughtful way Must be too busy again, eh? Socialist my arseum Jim Carroll |
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20 May 17 - 08:19 PM (#3856206) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Steve Shaw Beside the point, I know, but cheers, Jim, for mentioning my old mucker Blair. Whenever I read some of the benighted nonsense peddled here by our agenda-laden friends, I think of Blair, the sweetest and funniest man you could ever wish to meet, a bloke of rock-solid principle who really understood human nature, as tough as old boots and supremely eloquent despite his awful stammer, who stood up for the disadvantaged regardless of colour, creed or come-froms. He liked a pint or three down Burdett Road after the union meetings too! . |
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21 May 17 - 01:16 AM (#3856226) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Backwoodsman "My point is that they should be disposed of, removed from society for having committed heinous crimes against very young children." He was - he was incarcerated in a prison and, later, in a high-security hospital, with no possibility of ever being released. Now he's dead. Job done, without the obscenity of state-sponsored ritual murder staining all our hands. |
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21 May 17 - 05:07 AM (#3856256) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton An interesting link HERE |
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21 May 17 - 06:51 AM (#3856278) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou akenaton, that's an extremely interesting link, and deals with all sides of the question very fairly. Thank you for posting that. |
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21 May 17 - 07:02 AM (#3856281) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "An interesting link " What's interesting about it? The reintroduction of capital punishment is not under debate and will never be accepted again. The article appears to be based on a prurious interest in the subject; it reaches no conclusion and the alternatives give nothing to persuade one way or the other. You might just as well open a site on dog fighting or bear baiting - or maybe something a little MORE ENTERTAINING !!! It might be 'convenient' for society to end a life, but that's not how society which claims to be "civilised" works Taking a life it was once considered so wrong that it was once acceptable to take another life in recompense; contradictory logic. Thankfully, those contradictions have now been resolved - hopefully forever Jim Carroll |
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21 May 17 - 07:07 AM (#3856282) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou The fact it doesn't try to persuade one way or another is why I liked it Jim. |
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21 May 17 - 07:26 AM (#3856284) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton Thank you Sen....Oh that others here valued unbiased information. |
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21 May 17 - 07:35 AM (#3856288) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Backwoodsman I've read it, or something similar, before. And I've seen videos of executions. All served to persuade me of the obscene, barbaric nature of ritual state-sponsored ritual murder, and that no civilised nation should have any truck with it. |
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21 May 17 - 08:02 AM (#3856292) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: akenaton I see your point BWM, but there are always two sides(sometimes more than two sides) in a debate. I have watched a family member lapse into a living death through dementia accompanied by severe arthritic disability. The result was beyond description. Euthanasia would have been a blessed relief, but would have resulted in criminal charges. There is no doubt that in the future such actions to relieve pain and suffering will be brought forward, but is there any difference between physical pain and the psychological suffering of people like Brady who have to live with what they have done. If they are genuinely unaffected by their crimes they do not deserve a place in any sort of society, they are worse than the beasts which we slaughter daily....without a thought. |
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21 May 17 - 09:16 AM (#3856302) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Pete from seven stars link I think you got it right robomatic , on the OT eye for an eye . It was intended to be limiting vengeance. Though I do not favour capital punishment myself , neither could I say there was any injustice in executing a murderer convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt. But neither do I think anyone is beyond redemption either . But it always strikes me strange that a society that daily takes innocent human life , should agonise so much about taking the life of a murderer . |
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21 May 17 - 09:23 AM (#3856305) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Greg F. You going on about blastulas again, pete? |
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21 May 17 - 12:56 PM (#3856350) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "But it always strikes me strange that a society that daily takes innocent human life , should agonise so much about taking the life of a murderer ." We are not "society" we are discussing what society allows and doesn't allow I have never met anybody who would willingly take human life - I believe even soldiers who went to war found it abhorrent but were persuaded that it was necessary, or, more likely, were given no choice in the matter. This sums it up for me: The Man He Killed BY Thomas Hardy "Had he and I but met By some old ancient inn, We should have sat us down to wet Right many a nipperkin! "But ranged as infantry, And staring face to face, I shot at him as he at me, And killed him in his place. "I shot him dead because — Because he was my foe, Just so: my foe of course he was; That's clear enough; although "He thought he'd 'list, perhaps, Off-hand like — just as I — as out of work — had sold his traps — No other reason why. "Yes; quaint and curious war is! You shoot a fellow down You'd treat if met where any bar is, Or help to half-a-crown." We are constantly being blamed for the actions of our "betters" - man is naturally warlike, or violent, or acquisitive...... Don't believe a word of it Some are certainly, but there's usually a reason why they are what they are. In my experience people are usually kind or tolerant or humane unless they have been placed in a position where that is not possible. In my opinion, even the mobs that scream for blood at something like the Moors Murders would run a mile if you handed them a rope or a syringe and tell them to get on with it. they scream as they do as long as there's someone there who will allow them not to be involved in the actual dirty deed in any way Some time ago I became involved in a fierce argument on this forum with a number off people as to whether the underage killers of Jamie Bulger should have been executed - one somewhat eccentric lady was extremely insistent that they should have been The argument turned to the actual mechanics of execution and I related the story of Ruth Ellis having to wear canvas drawers because of the tendency of women's' insides falling out during the drop Your woman went ballistic because I had raised such an issue and shortly rode off into the sunset. That is gross hypocrisy as far as I am concerned - never demand something should happen if you are not prepared to do it yourself (with training, of course) It often makes my smile when I wonder how many of those screaming for blood would stay the course if the state introduced 'topping service' as they do jury service - not many, I suspect, and those that that did would be every bit as dangerous as the customer they they were prepared to top and in need of some sort of restraint themselves. People just aren't naturally like that - not the ones I've met anyway Jim Carroll |
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22 May 17 - 04:20 AM (#3856467) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford Jim, do female parachutists all wear "canvas drawers?" |
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22 May 17 - 05:11 AM (#3856479) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle they haven't got a noose round their neck. the damage to the nervous system loosens all the muscles down there. everything drops out. with men, its shit. with women its the internal organs ... |
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22 May 17 - 07:13 AM (#3856510) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford Defecation and urination can result from all methods of execution, and often accompany death anyway. The expulsion of female organs I am sure is a myth. |
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22 May 17 - 08:07 AM (#3856520) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "The expulsion of female organs I am sure is a myth." I've given a documented statement on this Do you have any proof that it is inaccurate or ids this just another of your denials? Jim Carroll |
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22 May 17 - 09:07 AM (#3856530) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou One of the many things I found totally repugnant about Pierrepoint's book were the accounts of the Prison Doctor verifying that death had occurred, shoving his stethoscope against the unfortunate victim's chest in the chamber under the execution floor. I understand that a doctor is present during American executions too. Surely a doctor is betraying his entire vocation by agreeing to play any part in this barbarism? |
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22 May 17 - 09:15 AM (#3856532) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "Surely a doctor is betraying his entire vocation by agreeing to play any part in this barbarism?" Is this not true of a priest as well When my father was a prisoner in Spain he and his fellow prisoners were subjected to 'mock executions' throughout the time he was there They were taken out irregularly, administered the last rites and placed before a firing squad, which would go through the motions of an execution then fall about laughing and walk away, leaving the young men standing there The priest would join in the jollity I only found that out last year - it explains why my father couldn't talk about his experiences for years afterward - he remained totally silent for a full year on his return to England Jim Carroll |
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22 May 17 - 09:26 AM (#3856534) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou Good grief Jim, that's truly appalling. Your poor father. Man's inhumanity to Man seems to know no bounds. |
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22 May 17 - 12:11 PM (#3856564) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Nigel Parsons "The expulsion of female organs I am sure is a myth." I've given a documented statement on this Do you have any proof that it is inaccurate or ids this just another of your denials? Jim Carroll I'm not really sure that quoting what you yourself have stated in an earlier thread actually counts as "a documented statement". However, in fairness, there is information here about the use of 'calico' padded knickers. (close to canvas I suppose) following a massive release of blood in the hanging of Edith Thompson. (taken from the Daily Mail 28 Oct 2009) |
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22 May 17 - 12:29 PM (#3856568) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle well if keith says its a myth i suppose its no big deal hanging women. like Ake was saying its probably quite beneficial for them. terrific idea really! probably one of their best. really its a testimony to their incredible insight and the depth of their understanding and humane approach to life's dilemmas. |
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22 May 17 - 12:54 PM (#3856577) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "(taken from the Daily Mail 28 Oct 2009)" My information came from one of our books - a history of capital punishment, 'The Fatal Gallows Tree', published in 1965 - I've already quoted bits from it. Doesn't matter if it appeared in the bible or Old Moore's Almanac - Keith would deny it because it doesn't suit his agenda He's like that Jim Carroll |
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22 May 17 - 04:15 PM (#3856591) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Backwoodsman I'm pretty certain that Pierrepoint describes the effects of hanging on females in his book - it's a long time since I read it, maybe Eliza could confirm? I'm almost certain that it's where I first heard of the expulsion of internal organs, and of the practice of using canvas pants to retain what came out. Doesn't sound like an urban myth to me, nor should it to KAoH - after all, AP was one of the top 'experts' in his field. One more example of the revolting barbarity of capital punishment. There is no justification. |
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22 May 17 - 04:34 PM (#3856596) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou Pierrepoint describes the dispatch of Irma Grese, Elisabeth Volkenrath and Juana Bormann, Belsen death camp 'officers', all of whom did not flinch. He later states in his book, "At the execution of Ruth Ellis no untoward incident happened which in any way appalled me or anyone else..." Towards the end of his 'career' he was asked to report to a Commission who were evaluating the Death Penalty, and he reluctantly did so. He was asked, among many other questions, if there was anything particularly difficult or unpleasant in the execution of a woman. He replied, "No, I think a woman is braver than a man, and I have seen more executions than anybody living." |
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22 May 17 - 04:39 PM (#3856598) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou There is no reference to special knickers or loss of internal organs, blood or anything else when describing the execution of any woman in his long list of victims. He does actually mention female prison warders being excused the last moments on the scaffold. They were replaced by male officers after the condemned had reached the drop. How thoughtful!! Re-reading parts of his book only serves to emphasise to me just how dreadful and barbaric executions are. |
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23 May 17 - 03:16 AM (#3856656) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Backwoodsman Thanks Eliza, I must have read it elsewhere, perhaps in the linked article which I've seen previously. |
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23 May 17 - 03:37 AM (#3856658) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou I too seem to remember another book (a library book, I get through dozens!) which dealt with the history of the death penalty. I was interested in the Lollards, but this particular tome travelled through the ages. I seem to remember it said that when a woman was hanged, she was made to wear some kind of 'modesty garment' so people couldn't see anything indecent as she hung in the air. Sometimes they tied a cord around her legs at the bottom, over her dress. Macabre that the thousand of spectators could have been fazed by the sight of a woman's legs etc but didn't mind in the least watching her death struggles as she strangled slowly on the end of a rope (it wasn't swift). Between the two gateposts at Norwich Castle, many hangings were carried out. The crowds were phenomenal; there was music and broadsheet vendors, and food for sale. A regular day out for all the family! |
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23 May 17 - 04:47 AM (#3856671) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Teribus Centuries ago public executions were arranged as demonstrations of the power of the law and the dreadful consequences of flouting the law. No "police force", no formal procedures governing investigations so unless the perpetrators were caught red-handed or were positively identified in the execution of their crime - they normally got away with it. Only 10% of the death sentences ever handed down were ever carried out according to the historical notes appended to Bernard Cornwell's book "Gallows Thief", in which he explains the term to be "hanged without mercy". The old form of hanging still practiced today in Islamic countries is slow hanging where you are hoisted up, or the platform is removed from under you and you are left suspended - in these cases you are slowly strangled by your own body weight - the lighter you (Women & children) the longer your death agony. Under English Law the Judge could grant or withhold "Mercy" which was a dead weight that could be attached to the victim's ankles to speed the process up. Sometime in the 1700s Slow hanging was replaced with first a short drop, then later by the long drop where on release of the trap the neck is snapped and death is instantaneous. I have heard that in hanging the bowels and bladder evacuate - I have never, ever heard of anyone's intestines falling out - anyone who has had to field clean a deer will know how somethings insides are held in place and the work it takes to remove them. |
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23 May 17 - 04:52 AM (#3856673) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford I am strongly anti capital punishment, but for solid and rational reasons. Stories like that just weaken the anti case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Medical_effects http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/hanging http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/Hanging_myths.pdf http://www.academia.edu/3003781/Post-Mortem_Appearances_in_Hanging_and_the_Cardinal_Sign_in_Ante-Mortem_Hanging_to_Ascertain_Hanging_as_the_Cause_of_Death |
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23 May 17 - 07:51 AM (#3856713) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "anyone who has had to field clean a deer " Are we discussing hanging deer/ Must have missed that one "Stories like that just weaken the anti case." Only if you choose to ignore them or dismiss them How on earth can such descriptions weaken the case. There have been very little detailed descriptions of the actual effects of of hanging - it wouldn't have been good for the image. Even today, those who support its return do not like to talk about it (out of sight-out of mind) and they would run a mile if they were required to carry out the act themselves Jim Carroll |
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23 May 17 - 12:16 PM (#3856760) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford Jim, your story was just a hoary old myth. Read all those scholarly articles I provided on the physiological effects of hanging. No mention of it. You have provided and unauthenticated anecdote from some book. You have failed to make a case. It is a myth. |
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23 May 17 - 01:17 PM (#3856771) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle oh yeh i bet every hanging attracts huge numbers of scholars. I bet Tyburn Tree was packed out like the Oxford Union. |
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23 May 17 - 01:35 PM (#3856777) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "Jim, your story was just a hoary old myth." Prove it Keith - the fact that nobody mentioned something that is not often talked about in public is immaterial For someone who claims not to support capital punishment, you seem to put an enormous amount of effort into defending it - a bit like your "non-support" for Ukip Quite franky, I'be become totally bored with hit-'n-run comments by people like you why claim one thing then prove the opposite Your return to "scholarly articles" - as with your "real historians" is pathetic Your "scholarly articles amount to one Wiki (scholarly???) article by an anonymous contributor, on from Dr Dinesh Rao (who?) who deals mainly with strangulation, not execution and devotes half a dozen lines to the subject of judicial handing, which he/she touches on superficially, one anonymous article which deals with execution by strangulation in foreign countries and doesn't mention the methods used by British hangmen with their technique of planning to break the neck rather than strangle their victims - the main cause of expulsion of bodily matter and innards – and last but not least – one from "Academia" which it totally inaccessible, which is obvios as you have been unable to access it and have just grabbed a handy looking title Your phantom "experts and historians" ride again You are not evening to pretend that these people are experts I have no intention of nausing up another thread by responding to your attention-seeking idiocy If you have anything positive to offer – feel free If not – please don't tell me something about what I have always been aware of Go and find some real "experts" if you feel you have a case Jim Carroll |
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23 May 17 - 02:51 PM (#3856792) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll Said I wasn't going to bother, but this is the actual quote I referred to - again!!! "convicts -- especially women -- in England, condemned women were compelled to don heavy canvass slacks at time of execution. The "long drop" has the force to kill instantly, but also to caused rectal and vaginal prolapse -- the tearing out of internal organs and discharge through lower orifices. The "short drop" was another story. Known to slowly strangle the victim rather than cause instant death." Now will you leave me alone Keith - please Jim Carroll |
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24 May 17 - 04:40 AM (#3856902) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford Jim and Al, I gave you scientific studies on the effects of hanging on all parts of the body. They are very detailed including some very unpleasant descriptions. Can you find any such report that lists what you claim? Come back when you can. |
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24 May 17 - 04:57 AM (#3856909) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "You gave no "study" You gave links to variably qualified or otherwise statements which in no way proved your "myth" claim" - one was unopenable "Can you find any such report that lists what you claim?" I've just given you one which specifically refers to the effects I was already aware of? Can you give a report which contradicts that statement No? Thought not Have you any explanation of why women were forced to wear canvas draws? Don't bother to come back with more denials bo----ring Jim Carroll |
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24 May 17 - 05:00 AM (#3856912) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford You gave links to variably qualified or otherwise statements which in no way proved your "myth" claim" - one was unopenable Rubbish. They were all scientific papers. I will sort the bad link. |
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24 May 17 - 05:00 AM (#3856913) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Dave the Gnome What I find interesting on this thread is that no one has mentioned Brady's nationality or religion. Is that only worth mentioning if the murderers are like the recent Manchester bomber? Both are child killers yet one is mad and the other is a terrorist. How does that work then? DtG |
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24 May 17 - 05:02 AM (#3856915) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Keith A of Hertford All four links work fine. |
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24 May 17 - 06:01 AM (#3856923) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle well i suppose both of them are a bit bonkers. however they both had logical reasons for what they did. sexual satisfaction and social alienation. i suppose they both had the alienation factor. i suppose both of them had a doctrine they subscribed to. its difficult to see what turned Brady onto sadism. no doubt something in his background made him damaged goods' however in the case of the muslims. i think its a bit disingenouous of Jim to keep going on as though we all hate muslims. when I first went to teach in Brum - I had no idea of what a muslim was. i taught there eight happy years taught loads of all kinds of kids, never had any problem with any of them - probably less than with any other racial group. I remember most of the kids parents hated General Zia and several said he was an uneducated man and had sympathy for Bhutto. the time i realised something was going wrong in the mosques was several years later when i was supply teaching in Derby. Virtually all the muslim children (from 11 years upward) said they wanted to kill Salman Rushdie at the time of the Satanic Verses business. there are people using the mosque to disseminate bad ideas to the young. It needs sorting. Only they can do it. Its buggerall to do with the Arab Spring. this is a domestic problem, and its a problem only the muslim population can sort out. for some reason various alienated people in our society - many of them from a racially English white background are getting their angst pandered to in the mosques. every community has its problems. that's one of theirs. JIm - you're doing 'em no favours keep going on that people who drew attention to the grooming business and this business of malcontents calling themselves terrorists, are racist bigots. they've got their problems - we've got ours. denying their problems gives legitimacy to the racists. |
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24 May 17 - 07:58 AM (#3856936) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Jim Carroll "however in the case of the muslims. i think its a bit disingenuous of Jim to keep going on as though we all hate muslims." Where have I ever said that Al - I certainly have never said it I respond to hatred of Muslims as and when it comes up I think that some statements that have been made can lead to a general hatred of Muslims - some of of them are intended to, but there are only a tiny handful of genuine Islamophobes on this forum - they stick out like the buboes they are Yes - every community does have its problems and YOU ARE doing them no favours by staying silent and passing by on the other side I've come to be very fond of your efforts as a peacemaker, but being lice to one another isn't what these forums should be about It would make them very boring, apart from anything else Jim Carroll |
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24 May 17 - 08:07 AM (#3856938) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Senoufou I tend to agree with you Al. We're all naturally aghast at the evil actions, but it isn't all that common to go one further and ask ourselves "WHY did they do it?" And there will always be a reason. Either a certain mental mindset, abuse, alienation, indoctrination and so on. If they hadn't suffered from one or more of these things, they presumably wouldn't have done what they did. On a tiny level, I've dealt with some extremely disturbed and badly-behaved pupils, (whom the Head always sent to me to keep the lid on. Thanks so much Mr H!) And while being firm and insisting the behaviour stopped, I usually found the child had a valid reason for their non-conformity. Their home life was awful, they were struggling with social relationships and had no friends, they were not quite normal in their mental health and so on. I'm NOT trying to make excuses for evil. But it's far more complex than just condemning people out of hand and executing them. The more understanding we gain of their motives and mindsets, the more chance we have of combating wickedness and preventing future atrocities. |
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24 May 17 - 08:46 AM (#3856949) Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady From: Big Al Whittle the thing is - its our problem. Us - the people who don't throw bombs and murder children like Brady did for sexual satisfaction. I've got more in common with JIm and Ake - than i have with the bloke who does this nasty stuff. WE're not going to come up with anything useful if we don't start from the get go with the assumption that we are all nearer the light than Ian Brady, and which ever bastard turned him into a monster. |