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19 Oct 17 - 08:54 PM (#3883392) Subject: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Jack Campin The thread this should have gone to has been closed. So here's a new one. Mexican paedophile rapist priest with HIV gets protection from the Church hierarchy: https://www.theindigenousamericans.com/2017/10/19/pedophile-priest-hiv-raped-30-children-forgiven-church-2/ |
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20 Oct 17 - 01:49 AM (#3883409) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Joe Offer I haven't seen anything from official channels in the Catholic Church, but the right-wing Catholic tabloids are saying that this particular priest doesn't exist. Maybe your tabloids and the Catholic tabloids can duke it out in the boxing ring, Jack. https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/does-the-mexican-priest-who-allegedly-abused-minors-even-exist-95510 The link is from the Catholic News Agency, which is owned by EWTN, the right-wing Catholic television network. Neither organization is owned by the Catholic Church. But Jack's story does have a ring of inaccuracy to it. The "trial" described does not follow usual practices of a church trial. Church courts handle ecclesiastical proceedings and don't deal with criminal charges. But some priests have had HIV and some have raped children. Nobody denies that. -Joe- |
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20 Oct 17 - 02:53 AM (#3883415) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: ollaimh "but some priests have had HIV and some have raped children. nobody denies that" and some catholcis not only rationalize and do nothing effective to defend the weak, they actually defend those who are the world's worst worst abusers of the weak and defnceless, such as ss officers who fake their medical licence and die in their beds after a career of genocide. the gnostic dualists were right. the god most christians worship is a devil. |
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20 Oct 17 - 03:42 AM (#3883421) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Various studies have shown that Catholic priests and homosexuals, are less prone to paedophilia than the public in general. This issue has been done to death and is usually subjected to extreme "moderation"......pull the plug when you leave. |
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20 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM (#3883425) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash Which studies are they Akenaton, perhaps you could provide links so we can all be enlightened. I'll not hold my breath if you don't mind. |
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20 Oct 17 - 04:17 AM (#3883426) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Nigel Parsons So, to quote the link: The priest Jose Ataulfo Garcia was acquitted of any crime by the Archdiocese Primada de Mexico after confessing to have sexually abused dozens of girls in the indigenous community of Oaxaca, reports the platform 'Anonymous' of Mexico. So an online news agency "The Indigenous American" of which I have never heard, re-posts 'news' being quoted from an 'Anonymous' website platform, and the opening post immediately gives it credence. Do some posters just trawl the web for the worst information they can find only to re-post it here as if it is a major (verified) news story? |
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20 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM (#3883436) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Teribus I believe that the studies Ake is referring to Raggy were the ones mentioned on the other thread which showed that 0.9% of all such crimes reported were committed by Roman Catholic Clergy - have a trawl through the previous closed thread for the details. |
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20 Oct 17 - 05:21 AM (#3883437) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash You may be correct, however unless Akenaton indicates which specific "studies" he is referring to, we won't know. Like I said I'll not hold my breath. |
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20 Oct 17 - 05:50 AM (#3883446) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton I'm busy, just off the roof, Google it if you are really interested. We even get tea breaks these days....:0) |
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20 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM (#3883448) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Teribus Well Raggy you have been pointed in the right direction too find out. Whether you do or not is entirely up to you. IIRC the studies referred to where introduced to counter what both olliamh and Jim Carroll stated in much the same words, i.e. - "those who are the world's worst worst abusers of the weak and defenceless" although I think Carroll's version was far more specific. From a point of view of reason and logic the section of humanity responsible for only 0.9% of all such reported crimes and abuses hardly amounts to them being singled out as the worse offenders in the world. |
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20 Oct 17 - 05:58 AM (#3883453) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton The facts of the matter are that most of these crimes were perpetrated against post pubescent teenage youths, making them not paedophilia, but simple sexual abuse. You may wish to bring the sexual orientation of those who committed the offenses into the discussion, but the facts are clear. |
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20 Oct 17 - 06:05 AM (#3883455) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Joe Offer You split hairs very well, Ake - but either way, it's a criminal offense that deserves prosecution. It does not fall within the boundaries of what society considers to be permissible sexual conduct, so it's a crime. |
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20 Oct 17 - 06:12 AM (#3883461) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Quite agree Joe and should be prosecuted, but Campin was trying to link the actions of a madman to the very real problems within the priesthood. Devious bugger as well a lying toad. |
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20 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM (#3883465) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Jack Campin The problems identified in that article weren't within the priesthood but within the hierarchy above them. It doesn't matter much if a priest is a psychopathic pervert. It matters a lot if his management tolerates it. |
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20 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM (#3883469) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash I could perhaps find reports into the subject but Akenaton states "Various studies have shown that Catholic priests and homosexuals, are less prone to paedophilia than the public in general" I wish to peruse the same "studies" he is referring to, not one's I find which may contradict his. Shouldn't be too difficult to post links to these "studies" Again I'll not hold my breath. |
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20 Oct 17 - 07:13 AM (#3883471) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Teribus Best not Raggy, just as I never, ever expect any form of substantiation for some of the baseless claims, allegations and accusations you and your pals come out with. Now how about another plug for ..... who was it again? Better still another recipe, or advice as to where to get a good pint. |
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20 Oct 17 - 07:44 AM (#3883481) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash I don't know why you are even getting involved T as my request was to Akenaton. Perhaps you should ............ go away. |
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20 Oct 17 - 08:20 AM (#3883485) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Dave the Gnome Without waiting for the source of ake's claims, which we know will never arise, we can quite easily work out the figures do not add up. Ake says "Catholic priests and homosexuals, are less prone to paedophilia than the public in general." and Teribus tries to back this up with "0.9% of all such crimes reported were committed by Roman Catholic Clergy". A very quick check revealed that out of a world population of 7 billion, the number of Catholic priests is a little over 400,000. This leaves us with the fact that Roman catholic priests comprise around 0.005% of the population. If indeed 0.9% of all such crimes are committed by them there is a massive over representation. DtG |
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20 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM (#3883491) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Nigel Parsons From: Dave the Gnome - PM Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:20 AM Without waiting for the source of ake's claims, which we know will never arise, we can quite easily work out the figures do not add up. Ake says "Catholic priests and homosexuals, are less prone to paedophilia than the public in general." and Teribus tries to back this up with "0.9% of all such crimes reported were committed by Roman Catholic Clergy". A very quick check revealed that out of a world population of 7 billion, the number of Catholic priests is a little over 400,000. This leaves us with the fact that Roman catholic priests comprise around 0.005% of the population. If indeed 0.9% of all such crimes are committed by them there is a massive over representation. The two claims are not mutually exclusive. Firstly the one deals with 'reported' crimes. So is not necessarily representative of the overall figure. Secondly, one offender may be responsible for very many offences, thus further skewing any comparison of the figures. |
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20 Oct 17 - 08:40 AM (#3883494) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Dave the Gnome Agreed, Nigel, but .005% of the population committing nearly 1% of the crimes takes a hell of a lot of skewing. Works out that 1 person would have to commit 20000 crimes to come close to the figure. We can only work on reported crimes as the figure for non reported ones can only be an estimate. DtG |
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20 Oct 17 - 08:43 AM (#3883497) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Nigel Parsons Yes, but under the basis that offences by priests, or by celebrities, are more likely to be reported (if that is the case) then that could cause a much greater distortion of the figures. |
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20 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM (#3883498) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Dave the Gnome I do not believe the distortion would be as massive as it seems but I take the point. There is no way of determining what level of distortion there is so I cannot allow for it but as I said 0.005% of the population committing almost 1% of the crimes is an over representation 20000 to 1. DtG |
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20 Oct 17 - 09:24 AM (#3883510) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: olddude Just shoot em, problem solved, next question |
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20 Oct 17 - 09:26 AM (#3883511) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash Ah ........ the good old American way! |
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20 Oct 17 - 10:27 AM (#3883528) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Another tea break. The problem as DMcG often says is "in the phraseology." Paedophilia and Abuse of Minors are often conflated, in the Priest abuse scandals, there were almost no attacks on infants or pre pubescent children and one of the studies done, it may have been the John Jay report, stated that the rates of real paedophilia amongst priests was on a par or slightly less than in the general public. This is from memory and I would need to check back to name the sources, however I cannot be arsed doing so, therefore you will have to verify it for yourselves. Certainly Dave the gnome seems to be correct in stating that the rates of sexual assault on minors in general is hugely over represented amongst male homosexuals/Catholic priests. |
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20 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM (#3883538) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Regarding Mr Campin's defence of his OP, all that needs to be said is that the man needs to be quietly put out of his misery. That's the priest, not Mr Campin of course! |
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20 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM (#3883543) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash "This is from memory and I would need to check back to name the sources, however I cannot be arsed doing so, therefore you will have to verify it for yourselves" This translates as I made it up and I'm not going to make a fool of myself by showing sources that do not support my assertion. |
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20 Oct 17 - 11:05 AM (#3883546) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Iains How about a bit of balance? Orthodox Jewish abuse Islamic Abuse Abuse is everywhere and often within the family https://www.ispcc.ie/advice/advice/protecting-children-from-sexual-abuse-in-the-family/8930 |
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20 Oct 17 - 11:08 AM (#3883548) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash Quite right Iains, if you recall I asked for my previous thread to be renamed for precisely this reason. |
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20 Oct 17 - 11:42 AM (#3883554) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Teribus There are 7 billion juveniles in the world Gnome? Somehow don't think so. A "massive over representation" of what? Your figures are totally meaningless. Something like 1.9 billion of the world's population are children - not all children are abused. Figure for the reported cases of abuse of children in the world amount to what? (Top 11 countries collective number amounts to 139,200 cases of child abuse - top nation is Australia) 414,000 Catholic Clergy in the world - not all are child abusers by one hell of a long shot. |
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20 Oct 17 - 11:44 AM (#3883555) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Teribus |
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20 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM (#3883565) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Greg F. 11:44 post your best in a long while, T. |
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20 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM (#3883566) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Dave the Gnome Teribus - Children are victims, not offenders. The whole point is that you say that .9% of such offences are commited by clergy. Yet in real terms the clergy only represent .005% of the population. But I am sure you knew that and were just being disingenuous. Tou do make a valid pint though - I should not be comparing the number of priests with the total population - Just the adult population which is, what, 5 billion? Still means that clergy only comprise .008 of the population and have a massive over representation of child abusers. Ake Dave the gnome seems to be correct in stating that the rates of sexual assault on minors in general is hugely over represented amongst male homosexuals/Catholic priests. I said an over representation within the clergy. I did not once mention homosexuals. That was you. DtG |
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20 Oct 17 - 11:16 PM (#3883630) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Joe Offer Of course, I'm still left wondering why Jack had to bring this up all over again, especially when the example he uses is of dubious veracity and not from a very credible source. I guess Jack just likes to talk about dirty old men priests.... It IS a serious subject that warrants study and serious discussion, but I see neither taking place here. "Evidence-based discussion" is a novel concept we might want to experiment with some day. -Joe Offer- |
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21 Oct 17 - 07:43 AM (#3883682) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: robomatic This appears to be fomentation by fake news. Trump would be proud. Unless the OP can further document this I recommend it be blanked out completely. This simply contributes to an unfortunate climate of fear and hate which lowers the standards of discussion on all sides. |
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21 Oct 17 - 11:13 AM (#3883717) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash I'm disappointed Akenaton, I was hoping so much you would provide links to your "surveys" Mind you, I didn't hold my breath, just as well really. |
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21 Oct 17 - 05:15 PM (#3883765) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Joe Offer I hope I don't get killed for saying this. Read this carefully, folks, before you subject me to tar and feathers. I can agree with Akenaton - to a point. True pedophilia is an adult having sexual contact with prepubescents, of the same or opposite sex as the offender. There is something especially awful about this. Good thing that it doesn't happen very often. For an adult to have sexual contact with postpubescents, of the same or opposite sex as the offender, is a diffent matter. This is what Ake has told us time and time again, and I agree with him completely to this point. Now, the far more common offense is for adults, mostly men, to have sexual contact with young males or females who have reached puberty, but are not of an age where they are able to give full content - if they give consent at all. In the 2004 John Jay Report [The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States], the victims of sexual abuse by priests are usually boys, by a ratio of 4 to 1. But here is where Ake and I part. Ake wants to blame this on the high incidence of homosexuality among Catholic priests; and then this leads Ake into his cockamamie mislogic that ends in his condemnation of homosexual marriage. In our diocese, the most recent problems have been between Mexican-born priests in their thirties, and girls who are about the age of 15. Some of these girls have had mad crushes on the priests, and the priests (who may be sexually immature themselves) have taken advantage of those crushes. The marriage of consenting adults (of the same or opposite sex) is something very different from occasional sex between an older person and a youth. For a man of 35 to have sex with a boy of 15, is not normal homosexuality. For a man of 35 to have sex with a girl of 15, is not normal heterosexuality, although society seems to place stiffer judgment on sex between adult males and minor males. Where Akenaton is wrong, is in implying that the crime of homosexual adults having sex with youths, is some sort of proof that all homosexuality is wrong and harmful. And then he uses it as what he considers to be proof that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. That's where I disagree with him. -Joe- |
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21 Oct 17 - 06:17 PM (#3883774) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Joe, who am I to say homosexuality is "wrong"/ I suppose it has been with us since time immoral, but there is a mass of evidence which proves that it is "harmful" and my view is that it should not be promoted, as it is today, as "just another lifestyle". When I started getting involved in these discussions, the epidemic of STD amongst male homosexuals was running at under 20% of new infections of HIV and Syphilis, which in itself is a gross over representation, as male homosexuals make up only 1% of the population Now, new infections of these diseases are running at between 70 and 80%. This is an extremely serious problem and one which is not being dealt with because "liberals" declare that any targeted programme of testing and contact tracing would be discriminatory in nature. What skewed logic that is!! Some say that "promiscuity is the problem, not homosexuality", but this argument simply does not stack up, as sections of the heterosexual community are perfectly capable of behaving promiscuously, yet infection rates amongst heterosexuals are miniscule and nowhere near epidemic proportions. However, there is a little ray of hope on the horizon, as UK health authorities are at last suggesting that NHS patients should be asked to declare their sexual orientation when attending their GPs on routine visits ...I believe that this was first mooted by some activist groups and is probably a precursor to compulsory testing and contact tracing, should members of "At risk groups"{MSM) refuse the offer of tests for HIV or Syphilis. Its all very well to spout of about individual rights on this forum, but thousands of mainly young people are having their lives affected by a serious epidemic, stopping which transcends individual rights. |
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21 Oct 17 - 08:29 PM (#3883795) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Joe Offer Yep, Ake, we still disagree. It's very clear to me that it's promiscuity that spreads sexually-transmitted diseases (STDs). If we allow homosexual marriage (and fidelity therewith) to become "normal," that should do a lot to curb the spread of STDs. Acceptance of homosexual relationships and marriage as normal is a big step, but I think that change will bring the stability and marital fidelity and mutual responsibility that (usually, not always) comes with marriage. -Joe- |
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22 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM (#3883817) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Sorry Joe, but although I respect your views which reflect your basically good nature and optimistic faith, I would point out that homosexual "marriage" has completely re-written the rule book regarding monogamy within marriage, due to the lack of the stabilising factor of family structure. This is what lies behind the Catholic Church's opposition to the subject and also the incongruity of continuing to employ homosexuals in the priesthood. Rather than go through the whole scenario again, here is an excellent view on the issue, which advances many points of view. "Gay Marriage" |
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22 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM (#3883820) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Raggytash Still no "reports" then Akenaton |
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22 Oct 17 - 09:26 AM (#3883847) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Greg F. Here ya go, Ake - a woman after your own heart: Georgia politician Betty Price asks if people with HIV can be quarantined; Wife of ex-health secretary Tom Price seeks to ?curtail the spread? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/21/wife-health-secretary-tom-price-betty-hiv-quarantine |
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22 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM (#3883858) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton If you take the time to read the last part of the very large thread which I linked to Greg, you will discover MY views on testing and contact tracing, I was saying four years ago what the health authorities are only starting to think about now....I cannot speak for others regarding "quarantine", but it did work very successfully in Cuba when the long term effects of the condition were unknown. For quarantine to have a beneficial effect, it has to be implemented early in any epidemic.....things have now reached a critical stage. |
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22 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM (#3883864) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: akenaton Joe, Pederasty and homosexuality have been linked for thousands of years......Pederasty |
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22 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM (#3883868) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Greg F. Still no "reports" or "mass of evidence" forthcoming Ake. I wonder why.... or not. |
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22 Oct 17 - 06:38 PM (#3883916) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Jack Campin Looking through what's been written on this, it looks like we don't yet have any confirmation from "Anonymous Mexico"'s claim - but we have even less for the rebuttals. (The fact that the Daily Mail picked it up is neither here nor there - they're just a poison-pen letter delivery service). I'm willing to give the Indigenous Americans' bulletin credit for having its heart in the right place, even if they didn't do enough fact checking to really nail the Mexican church on this one. Given what happens to people who challenge established power structures in Mexico (the Church has a much larger body count on its conscience than all the drug gangs put together) it might be a while before anything definite is established. |
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22 Oct 17 - 07:12 PM (#3883926) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: robomatic Sounds like a word-around for: "Sorry I posted this b***-s*** article but since it got a dialogue going it sorta justified itself." |
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22 Oct 17 - 07:58 PM (#3883933) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Jack Campin Given the way Mexican politics operates, you don't go identifiably public with an accusation like that if you expect to go on living. So it better be taken seriously. I possibly wouldn't have posted it in the same way if I hadn't found that the obvious thread to put it in had been gratuitously renamed to protect the guilty and then closed. |
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22 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM (#3883942) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Joe Offer Well, no, Jack, the facts are wrong. Church courts don't do criminal trials. There can be a church trial to determine whether a priest should be removed from the priesthood ("defrocked"), and people got all huffy when the Catholic Church failed to defrock offender priests. The church considers ordination to be forever, and was not in the practice of "defrocking" unless there was a flaw in the ordination. The usual practice was to have a trial to remove "faculties" - the permission a priest must have to function as a priest, without denying the fact that the man had been ordained. Rome eventually gave into to pressure and did begin to do trials to remove priests from the priesthood. I don't think this was a good thing to do because it muddied the waters, simply to satisfy those who did not understand the significance of removal of faculties. -Joe- |
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23 Oct 17 - 01:08 AM (#3883955) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: olddude Dear jack, what an Asshole.. The end I guess you have nothing better to do or maybe you can't help yourself |
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23 Oct 17 - 03:11 AM (#3883962) Subject: RE: BS: Rapist Catholic Priests From: Nigel Parsons From: Jack Campin - PM Date: 22 Oct 17 - 06:38 PM Looking through what's been written on this, it looks like we don't yet have any confirmation from "Anonymous Mexico"'s claim - but we have even less for the rebuttals. (The fact that the Daily Mail picked it up is neither here nor there - they're just a poison-pen letter delivery service). Perhaps the lack of 'rebuttals' is because it is a non-story to start with. It is difficult to rebut a totally made up story. |