Dodgy Artistic Licence?

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Dodgy Artistic Licence?

23 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM (#3884102)
Subject: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

?Vincent Black Lightning 1952? is one of Richard Thompson?s most beloved songs but the only trouble with the song?s title is that the Vincent company did not make a 1952 model.
Is that ?artistic licence? a case of sloopy reseach or just a case of Richard liking the sound ?1952? and it giving him more rhyming options?
And take Mark Knopfler?s ?Sailing To Philadelphia?. In the song Mark has Charlie Mason ( as in the Mason-Dixon Line ) described as a ?Geordie Lad? when in fact he came from Durham. Again, is this dodgy artistic licence.
And, would the songwriters from the 20s/30s/40s have been so ?imprecise.
Of course, that breed of song lyricists were very precise in certain areas, and they demanded ?perfect rhymes?, but come the rock era all that disappeared.
Dylan, for example, rhymes ?man? and ?sand? in the first verse of ?Blowin? in the Wind? and he has been called the greatest lyric writer of the rock era.
However, those old songwriters did come up with some dodgy lyrics. For example, in ?Winter Wonderland? ( 1934 ) the use of the word ?conspire", as in the line ?later on we?ll conspire, as we dream by the fire?, is a poor choice of word and always makes me cringe.

23 Oct 17 - 12:12 PM (#3884103)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Wow! Most of the speech marks have become question marks.
How did that happen?

23 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM (#3884107)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Dave the Gnome

The Black Lightning was a Vincent-HRD motorcycle first built in September 1948 at the Vincent works in Great North Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, UK, and produced from 1948 to 1952. At the time the Black Lightning was the fastest production motorcycle in the world.

Taken from this wiki page.

Mark Knopfler was born in Glasgow but raised in Newcastle so I think we can forgive his claiming other famous people as Geordies :-)

Perfect rhymes? One that always tickles me is by a master wordsmith and says

I left my cap in a public-house, my boots in the public road,
And Lord knows where, and I don't care, my belt and my tunic goed

I'll let you look up where it comes from :-)

DtG

23 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM (#3884108)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Dave the Gnome

In answer to your last question - iPad by any chance?

D.

23 Oct 17 - 12:23 PM (#3884109)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

"Dodgy Artistic Licence"... what ID do you need to provide to apply for one...???

23 Oct 17 - 01:47 PM (#3884122)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,nickp

Although I understand the VBL didn't have keys for James to give Molly...

24 Oct 17 - 03:15 AM (#3884192)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Joe Offer

Darn. I always liked "later on we'll conspire / as we dream by the fire." It conjures up thoughts of romantic, perhaps dangerous or maybe illicit adventures.

-Joe-

24 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM (#3884193)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,LynnH

Rather dodgy artistic licence making a fine story than possibly boring pedantry.............
Where can apply for a DAL?

Lynn

24 Oct 17 - 03:50 AM (#3884195)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: FreddyHeadey

I love dodgy rhyme when it is flagged as dodgy for me.

last month we had this in a song
,............ galoshes,
...............poshest.

24 Oct 17 - 03:53 AM (#3884196)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel

Tunesmith probably shouldn't look at any of Chris Difford's lyrics, clearly - try "Up The Junction", for starters.

Though I wonder... I remember many decades ago being shown how Louis MacNiece's "Bagpipe Music" was deliberately made up of bad/false rhymes (Blavatsky/Taxi etc) as a specific effect (like the dissonance of bagpipes) - perhaps Difford was doing the same.

24 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM (#3884197)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Stu

I've had my artistic licence revoked.

24 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM (#3884209)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Mr Red

later on we'll conspire, as we dream by the fire

Merriom Webster - Rhyming of conspire IMNSHO there is only one rhyme that comes close in meaning and desire doesn't convey the sentiments needed. I find conspire to be not only fitting, but very very clever in saying more than that number of words would normally. It makes you remember it, so in that context it worked on the OP'er!

What about Carole King's "Call out my Name, you know wherever I am" - she could have said aim it is technically and emotionally apt, but would it be as powerful? The song is not sharp edged, precise - it is just there for you!

One man's (or manette) dodgy is another song-writers assonance. It softens the flow. Cole Porter had a different method, enjambment. He usually made the rhyme perfect, but put it before the end of the line (or meaning/pause for breath).

If the song hangs together it is art. If the rest of the song is clunky - OK - it is naff.
Ballad of Bonnie & Clyde (sung by Georgie Fame) Dewlap bag should have been Burlap bag and the songwriters realised after the record was released. People wrote in! But they needed a bag for the story and assumed that the mental picture they knew to be correct was actually not the right word. It was a good song, certainly a good singer singing it.

24 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM (#3884326)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Well, I have to disagree that "conspire" has any merit in the context of the song.
Here's a dictionary definition; "make secret plans jointly to commit an unlawful or harmful act".
What we have here, I believe, is the fact that everyone grows up hearing that song EVERY Christmas.
It has become part of our Christmas experience. We are comfortable with the lyrics. ALL the lyrics.
But, just imagine if that the song was written today as part of a songwriting class assignment.
Would we be surprised if the person grading the effort returned the lyrics and had drew attention to the fact that the word "conspire" is not appropriate in the context of the rest of the song.

Is it possible that the lyricist "settled" on a poor choice of word.
The couple in the song are making plans while they sit by the fire. But, of course, the word plans appears in the next line and, of course, wouldn't rhyme with fire.
No, I think "conspire" was a very poor choice, and I bet the lyricist wasn't happy with it neither!

24 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM (#3884329)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Mr Red

Well! We all have our opinion, but If I had written the song, I would consider the royalties and those willing to sing it professionally were sufficient critique.

24 Oct 17 - 02:00 PM (#3884331)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Mr Red

Well! We all have our opinion, but If I had written the song, I would consider the royalties and those willing to sing it professionally were sufficient critique.

24 Oct 17 - 02:03 PM (#3884333)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Jackaroodave

"No, I think "conspire" was a very poor choice, and I bet the lyricist wasn't happy with it neither"

I guess the better-fitting "perspire" didn't occur to them.

24 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM (#3884339)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

expire...???

24 Oct 17 - 03:25 PM (#3884347)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

Later on, we'll perspire,
As we BLEEP by the fire...

24 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM (#3884351)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

Thesaurus.com give a string of synonyms for conspire, several of which at least muddy Tunesmith's argument; one that I find interesting in this case is "get in bed with".

24 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM (#3884358)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

frogprince said,
"Thesaurus.com give a string of synonyms for conspire, several of which at least muddy Tunesmith's argument"

I don't think so.

For example, " To Plan" can be a synonym for "To Conspire " as in, for example, The terrorists planned/conspired to blow up the building.

But, in the song the couple are planning their future, by the fire, and conspire doesn't fit.

Would you be happy, for example if the couple in the song talked about "conspiring to get married?",

24 Oct 17 - 05:07 PM (#3884363)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: DaveRo

Songs and poetry would be greatly impoverished if authors had to stick to conventional (i.e, dictionary) definitions. 'Conspire' is fine: the 'con' is the important bit. The nub of conspiracy is confidentiality, not illegality.

24 Oct 17 - 06:34 PM (#3884370)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Jackaroodave

I always heard "conspire" as a witty hyperbole on the part of the speaker: it's just we two with our secrets on the one hand, and the cold world outside on the other--deliberately underscoring the fireside coziness and the light-hearted semi-nonsense throughout the song. (Parson Brown can "do the job when he's in town?"But he IS in town: He's right there, you just built him.) Of course when faced with an apparent anomaly, listeners try to make it fit, but I confess it never struck me as the least inappropriate.

24 Oct 17 - 09:48 PM (#3884400)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: meself

I vote for 'conspire'. It's imaginative and appropriate.

As for Parson Brown - no, he's NOT in town - he's out in a 'meadow', outside of town, of course!

24 Oct 17 - 11:46 PM (#3884409)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Jackaroodave

"As for Parson Brown - no, he's NOT in town - he's out in a 'meadow',???outside of town, of course!"

OK, fair enough. We built snowmen in the front yard, where we had a nearby supply of coal, carrots, and top hats.

25 Oct 17 - 02:32 AM (#3884414)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Well, I'm not convinced, and I still think it's a case of listeners growing up hearing a word and never stopping to consider if it is appropriate.
Also, writers have to be careful when reaching for a ' different' word instead of using an obvious one.
For example, when Richard Thompson says, "Don't renege on our love' , instead of, for example, " Don't give up on our love", we care a case of a writer trying to avoid an obvious word but ending up with an " unnatural" sound phrase.

25 Oct 17 - 03:12 AM (#3884422)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: DaveRo

"Don't renege on our love' doesn't mean the same as " Don't give up on our love". Why do you assume he doesn't mean what he wrote?

25 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM (#3884427)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Mr Red

dictionary.com - 2. combine, concur, cooperate. how apt do you want it? Plus a little hint on the side of something more racy or adventurous.
And very telling they say: Can be confused "connive", "conspire". So they think the conniving interpretation is a stretch too far.
But we forget, we make the cardinal sin of Folkdom. We judge by the mores of OUR time. Words morph, meaning & connotations move. The song was written in a different era.

Thesaurus.com

25 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM (#3884470)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Context is everything! Just because certain words can be used as a synonym, doesn't mean they are always interchangeable.
I gave the dictionary definition of "conspire" in an earlier post, and it doesn't fit the context of the song.

25 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM (#3884474)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

DaveRo, well, I think it does!
And, can you imagine anyone saying to their partner," Don't renege on our marriage/love/relationship?"
For example, how often in the history of human relationships has that word been used in that context?
It sounds, like I said, a desperate attempt at avoiding the usual phrases.
But, that only works if the replacement words sounds natural.

25 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM (#3884493)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: DaveRo

'Renege' - break an agreement. The song goes:

Remember when we were hand in hand
Remember we sealed it with a golden band

It's more than just 'giving up' on the relationship; he's accusing her of breaking a promise. (I'm assuming a male singer, here.)

And yes, 'renege on our love' sounds odd, and no, I can't imagine anyone saying it. Perhaps RT wants to emphasise the singer's desparation - and rather posessive attitude to the woman.

I do agree that, in most circumstances, natural words are best - if it expresses what you intend.

25 Oct 17 - 08:32 AM (#3884494)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Snuffy

"To face unafraid the plans that we've made" reinforces the idea of a conspiracy.

25 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM (#3884515)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

BUT! Renege doesn't, to me, sound like a word that would be used in the context of the song.
It sounds unnatural and forced.

And, Snuffy, I can't get my head around your post.

And, again, I would say that "unfraid" isn't a good choice of word, anyway.

I know we often talk about facing the future unafraid, but not in the "lovey dovey" warm context of "Winter Wonderland".

25 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM (#3884518)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

The present topic reminded me of another icon, and more "dodgy" elements in a song.
Joni Mitchell's "For Free" is one of her most beloved compositions but there is a dreadful irony in the main thrust of the song.
"For Free" tells the story of a street busker who is ignored by all pedestrian who pass him by ( "nobody stopped to hear him, though he played so sweet and high")
Joni, presumably the narrator of the song, is critical of all the passer-bys for not stopping to hear the beautiful music.
But, and here comes the irony, Joni doesn't stop either!

Now, you can bet your bottom dollar that somebody is going to say that Joni is well aware of this "irony" and that her actions just emphasize the total neglect of the busker's music.

25 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM (#3884527)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing

In one of James Blount`s song of which name I know not, he says "I have a plan" and virtually in the same breath he says, "and I don`t know what to do". Hello!!

25 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM (#3884534)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

" you can bet your bottom dollar that somebody is going to say that Joni is well aware of this "irony" and that her actions just emphasize the total neglect of the busker's music."

Why wouldn't someone say that? The wording of the last verse makes is patently obvious.

I will just about bet MY bottom dollar that you will now say that I'm wrong. I will also bet a nickel that you're just trying to pull people's chains. I won't bet a dollar on that; maybe you really are just a bit obsessive. : )

25 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM (#3884536)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

...makes IT patently obvious...

25 Oct 17 - 10:48 AM (#3884539)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

frogprince, that doesn't make sense!

"Here's what Joni wrote:

Clearly, Joni would NOT be influenced by the fact that the busker had not been on tv. She could hear that is music had great worth, so what is her reason for not stopping?

25 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM (#3884551)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

Her "reason for not stopping" was simply going on about her business when the signal changed to "walk"; I would say there is an implication that, in retrospect, she doesn't feel that that was a good enough reason.

25 Oct 17 - 11:33 AM (#3884555)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

One could argue that every pedestrian is "going about their business".
And, if, as you say, Joni, a trained musician, doesn't think there was a good enough reason to stop, why even mention the general public's neglect.

In fact, why even write the song in the first place.

25 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM (#3884601)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

Like, pay attention! :) I think the implication is that, in retrospect, she feels she had good reason to stop; she's implying at least a bit of regret because she, like the others, just walked on by.

As with other thoughtful lyrics, such as that of "The Cha Cha Slide", there are any number of nuances that make the song worthwhile...

25 Oct 17 - 03:38 PM (#3884605)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Regret? She doesn't imply any such thing. She just moves on when the signal changes, and mentions, again, that he was playing real good for free.

25 Oct 17 - 04:45 PM (#3884624)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Mr Red

I gave the dictionary definition of "conspire" in an earlier post, and it doesn't fit the context of the song.

Feel free to be more right than dictionary.com - they are only human. Though they is a larger number than one opinion. But do tell us which English you speak.

It's not as if songs, poems, or novels are the lexicographical equivalent of a photograph. They are literary paintings. If you want precision, try reading a dictionary, the plot is somewhat thin, though author explains every word in detail.

Don't look in more than one, though, they do differ at times.

Sturgeon's Law nine tenths of everything is crud - and that goes for opinions IMNSHO.

25 Oct 17 - 08:34 PM (#3884669)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: meself

You know, btw, if Joni or anyone else writes a song with "I" or "me" in it, it doesn't necessarily mean they are actually singing about themselves ....

25 Oct 17 - 09:49 PM (#3884680)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: frogprince

...or writing about a factual incident. I guess I have been approaching this as if it were an entry in J.M.'s diary. It is narrated by a person involved in music, though, not by a coal miner or gunslinger.

26 Oct 17 - 01:56 AM (#3884696)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Well, if you know anything, you should know that Joni is the ultimate "confessional" singer.
Indeed, Kris Kristofferson once warned her about revealing too much of her personal life/emotions in song.
And, of course, the narrator in "For Free" is described as a successful singer who fills concert halls...just like Joni.

26 Oct 17 - 02:26 AM (#3884698)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Allan Conn

"She just moves on when the signal changes, and mentions, again, that he was playing real good for free."

I suppose people will read different things into what they are listening too. I would agree that she is hinitng at regret. The fact that she meant to stop - and that she's telling the story and bothering to mention that she meant to stop - hints at regret. For me anyway!

26 Oct 17 - 03:00 AM (#3884700)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: DaveRo

Regret - and guilt - that she didn't stop and support an aspiring musician. And 'the signal changed' emphasises how trivial her excuse.

Next?

26 Oct 17 - 03:38 AM (#3884706)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

But, if that is the case, doesn't the narrator, Joni, reveal herself as very arrogant?
Everybody else passed the busker by because "they hadn't seen him on their TVs ", but the great Joni Mitchell recognises his talent but can't be bothered stopping to listen.

Which ever you cut it, Joni doesn't come out covered in roses.

26 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM (#3884727)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: Jackaroodave

Just from the lyrics, I automatically inferred that the narrator and the composer were far apart and that. the song was "about" the narrator's lack of self-awareness. It seems like a common trope in first-person songs in this genre: cf Paul Simon, Randy Newman.

But I'm not familiar with Mitchell's work, so what do I know?

26 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM (#3884791)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: meself

Not as much as Tunesmith, apparently. This thread seems pointless - I'm out.

26 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM (#3884795)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Trying to work out the essence of song's meaning by discussion is pointless to you?

But, I do note that your input on this topic has been less than inspiring.

I think you're visiting the wrong forum.

27 Oct 17 - 12:24 AM (#3884947)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

ok then OCD lyricologists...

"Mah Na Mah Na
Do doo be-do-do
Mah Na Mah Na
Do do-do do
Mah Na Mah Na
Do doo be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do-doodle Do do do-doo do!"

27 Oct 17 - 02:24 AM (#3884949)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Punkfolkrock, I've just checked your contribution to this topic.
Pathetic is the word that comes to mind!
But, you can redeem yourself!
Please enlighten us as to what you believe is the real essence/meaning of Joni's song.

27 Oct 17 - 03:47 AM (#3884955)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

I can't speak for Joni..

But if she was here, maybe she'd respond with "Go stuff it up your arse you humourless miserable pompous buffoon..."...???

As I long time ago studied critical analysis of poetry,
and inspired by the great Syd Barrett & Kevin Ayers,
wrote complete bollocks meaningless surreal song lyrics for our arty farty student punk band,
I'd tend to agree with that sentiment... 😜

27 Oct 17 - 03:52 AM (#3884956)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

.... and btw...

"A well a everybody's heard about the bird
B-b-b bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, the bird is the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word

A well a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A well a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A well a bird, bird, b-bird's the word

A well a don't you know about the bird?
Well, everybody knows that the bird is the word!
A well a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a

A well a everybody's heard about the bird
Bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, b-bird's the word

A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word

A well a don't you know about the bird?
Well, everybody's talking about the bird!
A well a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A well a bird

Surfin' bird
B-b-b aah, aah!

Pa pa pa pa, pa pa pa pa, pa pa pa pa, pa pa pa pa
Pa pa pa pa, pa pa pa pa, pa pa pa pa
Papa, ooma mow mow
Papa, ooma mow mow

Papa ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow

Papa ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Oom oom oom oom, ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow, papa oom oom oom
Oom ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow

Ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Papa a mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow, ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow, ooma mow mow

Papa oom oom oom oom, ooma mow mow
Oom oom oom oom, ooma mow mow
Ooma mow mow, papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow, ooma mow mow

Well a don't you know about the bird?
Well, everybody knows that the bird is the word!
A well a bird, bird, b-bird's the word

A well a ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow
Papa ooma mow mow"...!!!

27 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM (#3884957)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

Yes that's right.. in a song, in creative artistic expression, it's also as much about what a word sounds like,
as what it might be intended to mean... 😎

27 Oct 17 - 10:23 AM (#3885047)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Well, the "punk" part of your "moniker" tells me all a need to know.

Punk music was a musical and artistic disaster!
to
Lyrically and musically it was inferior the the rock music and singer/songwriter that was happening when punk first emerged.

For example, a fraction of Joni's work is worth more that the total creative(!) output of the punk era.

27 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM (#3885078)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

Punk would never even have come into being
if it hadn't been for tedious middle-brow cultural snobs like you
for us bright young bored music obsessives to actively react against... 😜

My sincerest thanks...!!!

But that was 40 years ago...

I'm mostly an old fart folkie now.... 🙄

27 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM (#3885105)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

The best of the music that was on offer before the arrival of punk beats punk hands down in every area.

Of course, if you had have been a thirteen year old music illiterate, then punk would have made sense.

27 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM (#3885119)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

Actually I was a 16 -> 18 year old with an encyclopedic general knowledge of, and liking for, most genres of post music hall popular music...

That's a product of classic Grammar School edumacation that is...

same goes for my teen band mates...

But we needed your kind of sanctimonious intolerant old miseries to fight back against with our guitars, synths, and amps..
and that included many teen fans of Prog Rock and Singer Songwriters, with their narrow minded ignorant sense of superiority...

.. At that same time, those were still 2 of my favourite genres for home listening,
even though we were actively gigging out vital 'new wave' music in bands..

While all the moaners sat on their arses complaining about punk being a 3 chord 9 day wonder...

Of course it was.. We knew that, and celebrated it as loud and with as much exuberant fun as we could muster... 😎

27 Oct 17 - 04:38 PM (#3885150)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Well, I think, musically and lyrically, Punk had it over Skiffle, for example.
It did move away from American dominated vocals, and speak to young people.
To be far, as a young person, I never felt put upon by the older generation.
For example, I cringed the first time I heard "My Generation"( pre- punk, I know)
But, then, again, I was in my early 20s when the song came out, and I do know that certain friends of mine, who where five or six years younger than me, really related to the song.
Also, in retrospect,, I have a great sympathy for those fans of Swing back in the 50s when in was blown away by 3 chord rock'n'rollers.

27 Oct 17 - 06:55 PM (#3885179)
Subject: RE: Dodgy Artistic Licence?
From: punkfolkrocker

Absolutely spot on.. we refused to Americanise the songs we were writing, or how we presented our onstage persona...
We mocked older derivative formulaic local heavy rock bands who were inthrall to America..
We were British teens from a small provincial west country town,
and we were writing about our own direct personal experiences within our own locality...

I was borrowing Topic Trad folk LPs from the library, our band was taking inspiration from George Formby & Jake Thackray and other classic British comic novelty songs..
We easily saw parallels in what we were doing
with our own short sharp absurdist surreal electrified songs about our mates, girlfriends,
and conflicts with pisshead town thugs and coppers who hated all us young hippies & punks..
We were comfortable with being British, without being xenophobic or nationalistic about it..
Those were the years of the Anti N@zi League and Rock against Racism..
Us smart arsed well educated youth versus the forces of resentful boneheaded conservatism...

I've always regarded our particular expression of rebel teen culture from that time as punk/folk in spirit...

How different it was back then, no onstage health & safety, or noise limiters [well ok - the police occasionally], no artistic licences... 🙄 😜