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25 Oct 17 - 04:53 AM (#3884448) Subject: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM I have had sight of a sheet of paper, written sometime about 1850, with the words given below. It seems to be related to wassail songs but I can't find these words anywhere. Can anyone suggest another source or know anyhting similar? Kind Master and Mrs God Blefs you all hear By your leave we are come to sing in the new year The old one is ended and bide us a due And we are commended to welcome the new It is better to do so than it is to do worse To go to the ale house to sware and to curse There is None will comend us we have nothing to fear So I hope God will send you a happy New year We dont sing for monny Nor none we Deserve We have other employments or else we must sarve For cold is the season and the bells the do ring And that is the reason that cause us to sing There is no better enjoyments can be upon earth Than friends meet together in good civel mirth For ringing and singing is every were I hope God will send you a happy new year Please your Master and Mrs or els we sing none Praps we may be wanted when thuse ware gone But althought by some people disdained may be Prap there are more uncivel than we Kind Master and Mrs now we must Depart I hope God will protect you Asleep and Awake And all that belongs to you every where And I hope God will send you A happy new Year And all that belongs to you everywhere And now if you please we taste of you bear |
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25 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM (#3884452) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: Gallus Moll not dis-similar to Galoshans type rhyme, tho sounds more English than Scottish? |
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25 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM (#3884457) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST I have had sight of a sheet of paper, written sometime about 1850 It might be helpful i you gave the context of where you found it, and how you've dated it? |
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25 Oct 17 - 06:37 AM (#3884462) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM Sorry, should have said. In a private archive in England. Handwritten by someone born in either 1823 or 1841. |
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25 Oct 17 - 03:40 PM (#3884607) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: mg great words. I will pass them on to wassailers if that is OK. |
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25 Oct 17 - 04:06 PM (#3884616) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: Steve Gardham These things tend to be very regional although the 'kind master and good mistress' lines are pretty universal in England. FWIW the piece has all the hallmarks of a local carol possibly filled out a little by some local bard. I have had a quick search through the regular New Year carols and have not come up with anything close so far. It would help to identify it if you could narrow down the area it came from. |
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25 Oct 17 - 06:44 PM (#3884650) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM Thanks Steve Gardham. I was holding back some information because not leading the informant can aid research. And the first post took three goes to 'take'. However, since you ask. In 1952 Peter Kennedy recorded wheelwright Arthur Lewis of Hope Bowdler, Shropshire singing a "New Year Carol". I haven't heard the recording. The family of Arthur's wife Sarah have three sheets of notepaper with much the same words. One bears the name of Sarah's grandmother (born 1823) or, less likely, aunt (born 1841). I will post transcriptions of the other two versions when I have had another look at them. They both have "employment or we must starve" in verse three and maybe "command" rather than "commend" in verses one and two. To my unskilled eye, within the three, there are elements of a 'fair copy' of something else but mainly of trying to piece together partialy known verses. |
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26 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM (#3884751) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM @mg The current owner says "They were written down so that people could sing them" The other two transcriptions may give more to chose from. I'll be back with them. |
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26 Oct 17 - 06:42 AM (#3884753) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: Stanron Is there a tune associated with these words? |
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26 Oct 17 - 07:29 AM (#3884764) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM No tune with the words. I have seen, but don't have, a verse or two transcribed from what Arthur Lewis sang and it seems to be a version of the same song. So his tune would be the best bet. Does anyone have access to the recording referred to on this page http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/search%20for%20titles_nep_niv.htm |
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26 Oct 17 - 08:31 AM (#3884775) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: FreddyHeadey & a British Library link is on this page by clicking the name underlined in red http://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/midlands-1952/19/ "NB: This content can be heard in the Library's Reading Rooms. You need a Reader Pass to use our Reading Rooms." |
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26 Oct 17 - 08:56 AM (#3884780) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM Thanks. Will print the scan of the recording notes for the family. They had a cassette copy of the recording but it has gone astray. Arthur's wife's family, the Croxtons, were the blacksmiths in the village for over 200 years |
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26 Oct 17 - 12:46 PM (#3884846) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: Steve Gardham Have you noticed the repeated lines at the ends of sts 2, 4 & 6 which might suggest there are 3 double stanzas here originally? |
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26 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM (#3884863) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM Interesting. When I first saw the words a few years ago I searched on the internet and found a PDF with a two part harmony titled "hope bowdler song - trad? 2A + 1B" (just like that) with A and B having 16 bars of 3/4. I looked at it this afternoon but it doesn't fit the rhythm of the words very well so I set it aside. I don't know where I found it and I can't find it now. It may be a red herring but if not it might hint at something other than four line stanzas. |
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26 Oct 17 - 02:49 PM (#3884872) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: Steve Gardham The words fit very well to any of the well-known wassail tunes, particularly the Yorkshire ones. I would look to the surrounding counties for a tune if you haven't got one. |
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26 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM (#3884881) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST Thanks. I am on the track of a tune that may be Arthur's tune. I dropped off a print of the notes from the BL and discovered that the cassette copy that was once in the village came from Roy Palmer who was shown the sets of words when researching his "The Folklore of Shropshire". I'll have a look to see if he mentions it. In addition to change-ringing in the church tower Hope Bowdler had a strong hand-bell ringing band in the 19th century, so "ringing and singing is everywhere" would be very apt locally. |
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01 Nov 17 - 08:41 AM (#3886177) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,PM Roy Palmer gives a transcription of Arthur's singing on the recording, the tune and a facsimile of one of the other sets of words. Palmer, Roy (2004) The Folklore of Shropshire, Logaston Press, ISBN 1 904396 16 X. The main differences from the words given in the first post are: V3, L3 "Condemn", not "commend" V3, L2 "else we should starve" V4, L2 "God's civil mirth" not "good civil mirth" V4, L3 "hymning and singing" not "ringing and singing" Last line "and now if you please, ma'am, we'll taste..." Spoken "Happy New Year! Happy New Year!" at end. Palmer writes verses 3 and 4 as a block of 8 lines so maybe something in Arthur's delivery supports Steve Gardham's suggestion above. To me V3, L3 was the puzzling one in the written words, they all have "commend" The written words all clearly have "good civil mirth" and "ringing and singing" which is an interesting change given that ringing features prominently in both what Arthur said and in other local accounts from the 1800s to the 1950's. Arthur had sung in church choirs since he was old enough to sing. I'll be back with the tune. |
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01 Nov 17 - 09:40 PM (#3886305) Subject: RE: Any one recognise these words? Wassail, From: GUEST,Dave Hunt Very good words...I live in Dawley,Shropshire, about 25mins drive from Hope Bowdler....I will be very interested in any further information |