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20 Dec 17 - 04:26 PM (#3894977) Subject: Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: robomatic Cardinal Bernard Law was a power presence of the Catholic Church in Boston. He suffered in my estimation by comparison with his (not immediate, but most famous) predecessor, Cardinal Cushing, who was well liked, even loved by people of all faiths in the Northeast. By contrast Cardinal Law seemed more of a retrenchment to more traditional even conservative attitudes more similar to times prior to the Second Vatican Council. He has most recently come to publicity in the excellent movie Spotlight by the great actor Len Cariou, due to his controversial part in the priest abuse scandal that broke in Boston in the early Zips, or Noughts. |
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20 Dec 17 - 07:18 PM (#3895004) Subject: RE: Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Joe Offer Before the child sex abuse scandal, Law was highly respected for his work in civil rights and ecumenism. He was seen as one of the "good guys." He handled the sex scandal poorly, and that was his downfall. The Catholic Church badly needed bishops with courage and compassion to handle that matter as soon as it came to light, but almost all the U.S. bishops were milquetoast bureaucrats, not leaders. There was much criticism of his assignment to Rome after his resignation from the lofty position of Archbishop-Cardinal of Boston, but the job he got in Rome was just about the lowest position a cardinal could be assigned to, responsible mainly for making maintenance decisions for an aging basilica church. I don't think Law was a bad man, but I grieve for all who suffered because of his lack of courage and leadership. -Joe- |
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20 Dec 17 - 08:07 PM (#3895008) Subject: RE: Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Donuel The not guilty verdict of the perverse criminal Cardinal Law is a sad ending for the man and the institution. It is said Christ died for man's sins but I feel this was not one of them. |
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20 Dec 17 - 08:20 PM (#3895012) Subject: RE: Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Joe Offer Not guilty verdict? I didn't know there was a trial. Get your facts straight, Donuel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Law The man was forced out of his job in disgrace, and was never returned to a position of influence. Isn't that something? But yeah, there's a good chance he should have been prosecuted. Write to the Boston DA. -Joe Offer- |
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21 Dec 17 - 06:49 AM (#3895090) Subject: RE: Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Donuel I am talking about my feelings Joe. Although my feelings are a subjective fact to me, they are not facts to be judged. You declare him "not bad" which is also a feeling that should not be judged. I am not bound by Christian law to forgive, even though forgiveness is healing in some cases. If the Cardinal ever had a day in a real court perhaps I would feel differently. |
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21 Dec 17 - 09:24 PM (#3895245) Subject: RE: Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Steve Shaw "I don't think Law was a bad man..." Phew. Talk about defending the indefensible... |
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22 Dec 17 - 02:48 AM (#3895261) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Joe Offer I'm sorry, Steve. I know that demonizing people is all the fashion, but I find very few people who are all good or all bad. I keep trying to understand the reasons why people do things. I realize that this sort of thinking is very unpopular these days. And Donuel, it's all well and good that you talk about your feelings. But if you say, "The not guilty verdict of the perverse criminal Cardinal Law is a sad ending for the man and the institution," that's not really a statement of feelings. It's a misstatement, what the Trump regime refers to as "alternative facts." -Joe- |
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22 Dec 17 - 10:09 AM (#3895268) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Mrrzy Pedant alert: It is Bernard Cardinal Law, not Cardinal Bernard Law. Shutting up now. |
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22 Dec 17 - 10:39 AM (#3895273) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: robomatic Mrrzy I yield to no one in my strict observance of pedantry when the oppportunity arises, but I have not found your suggested title for the man in the newspapers. New York Times obit here. Pretty unforgiving article here, out of Boston referring to Law as an unindicted co-conspirator here. Please amplify your argument: Is this a Church syntactical embellishment or do the papers have it wrong? Or is there a subtext that due to the aura of ill-repute surrounding the man he does not get the appropriate appellation? |
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22 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM (#3895283) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Steve Shaw I don't really think I was demonising him. But if a lot of people suffered horrible things on his watch that he clearly did far less than he should have done to put right, I don't know how you can say that he wasn't a bad man. Yes he was, I think. Which is never to say that he didn't do some good things in his life. But they are outweighed. |
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22 Dec 17 - 12:44 PM (#3895292) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Greg F. I keep trying to understand the reasons why people do things. That's fine, Joe, but their motivation doesn't mitigate the crimes they commit or the harm they do. |
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22 Dec 17 - 02:54 PM (#3895310) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: robomatic We are getting to the point where we can link people's actions to specific physiological causes. We can trace it in modern medicine back to Phineas Gage. We have not yet reduced humans to complex automatons, but the motivation is there for any defense attorney to point at any brain tumor or lesion as responsible rather than a moral failing. Will retribution eventually give way to institutionalization? |
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22 Dec 17 - 03:50 PM (#3895320) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Joe Offer As should be expected, the obituary in the New York Times is excellent. I can't say I have much respect for any of the U.S. bishops who were appointed by Pope John Paul II. If I knew more about them, I'd probably say the same about John Paul's appointments in the rest of the world. John Paul wanted businessman bishops who followed the party line. He wanted bishops known for respect and obedience, not people known for courage and integrity and innovation and leadership. John Paul's appointments had a deadening effect on the Catholic Church that will last for another generation, or longer. Pope Francis has had a very good effect on the church, but many of John Paul's appointees will be in power long after Francis is dead. Bernard Cardinal Law* was just one of many church bureaucrats who made the Catholic child sex scandal so much worse by ignoring it and covering it up. He happened to be the first one to get caught, so he became a symbol of the entire scandal. But he was no worse than many others of the same ilk. They were selected as bishops because they were expected not to make waves. I would hope that era is over, but I don't think we've seen the last of the bad effects of the era of John Paul II. -Joe- *The formal name would be "Bernard Cardinal Law," but common usage has been "Cardinal Bernard Law" for a long time. |
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22 Dec 17 - 04:14 PM (#3895324) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: mg Pope Francis is darling and says many good things and has good sound bytes etc...he is good in many ways. But he is totally irresponsible in dealing with this abuse. Bringing Pell to the Vatican when his treatment of abuse victims was well known and Australia screamed and kicked at the news..plus he had a well-known accusation, I believe before ordination. It is a filthy church at the..perhaps not core, but at the surrounding inner layers. Thousands of years to have this activity carried on with full knowledge of the popery. |
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23 Dec 17 - 08:21 AM (#3895438) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Iains The Catholic church could be worse. It could succumb to the ravings of the loony left as exemplified below. https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/rebel-priest-rev-jules-gomes-safe-space-sarah-box-ticking-bishopette-londonistan/ perhaps the mudrats should study the collected works of the bishopette of londonistan. More than a few things they appear to have in common, including total divorce from reality. |
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23 Dec 17 - 10:13 AM (#3895464) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Greg F. Thanks for that "fair and balanced" reporting from the conservativewoman fish wrapper. |
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23 Dec 17 - 12:00 PM (#3895488) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Joe Offer Golly, Iains, your "Rev Jules Gomes" certainly knows how to string bigoted buzzwords together. Do you really believe that crap? Joe |
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23 Dec 17 - 12:20 PM (#3895496) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Iains Joe. I do not believe it. Sadly the Reverend apparently does. For a bishop she certainly has had a truly meteoric rise and a unique outlook. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Mullally |
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23 Dec 17 - 12:49 PM (#3895508) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Greg F. Iains... Do you really believe that crap? Absolutely. Or he wouldn't post it. |
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23 Dec 17 - 01:24 PM (#3895519) Subject: RE: 2017 Obit: Cardinal Bernard Law, power & scandal From: Donuel With everything the USA has gone through this year it is only natural for people of all kinds to seek; a moral center, an equilibrium of morality, a departure from business as usual, an escape from depravity, a release from fear and refuge from hypocrisy. The career criminals will double down and the opportunistic cowards will run for cover. Eventually the pendulum of morality will find its new center as its wild swings slow. "these days" will become new days when bad guys fuck off. Peace through mirth Good will, amen |