BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?

04 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM (#3897316)
Subject: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

Homeless to be cleared off the streetts for the Royal Wedding
Wonder how that fits in with his brother's charity activities?
Jim Carroll

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04 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM (#3897325)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

I saw that in the paper today Jim, and it made my blood boil.
How untidy of the suffering homeless to litter the pavements like that and spoil the wedding! And it's all their own fault; they actually love being half-frozen in the bitter weather and having to beg, getting spat on and attacked. They probably do it just to annoy us.

'The Homeless' are not a homogeneous set of folk. They have a myriad problems and dozens of reasons for their predicament. Some are mentally ill, others are addicts, some are migrants, others prostitutes, some are youngsters chucked out of their 'homes'. They can be difficult to deal with, and wary of officialdom. The Salvation Army does quite a bit to give them some basic comforts. But this Victorian attitude of 'moving them on' because the sight of them offends....well!!

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04 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM (#3897327)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

I was heartened (if not a little surprised) that Theresa May has expressed her opposition to the decision
It will be interesting to se if the Royals who are involved in these charities boycott the wedding!!
Jim Carroll

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04 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM (#3897329)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Charmion

The city of Vancouver went to extraordinary lengths to clear its streets of homeless people before the Olympic Games in 2010. The "downtown Eastside" neighbourhood, notorious across Canada for its drug problems, was the main target even though hardly anyone could imagine Olympic ticket-holders wandering into its blighted streets. Nobody with the brains God gave a goose had any trouble breaking the code.

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04 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM (#3897330)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

I do see that, when trying to ensure security is as tight as possible, the Police are concerned that a terrorist could easily pretend to be homeless and have a bomb hidden in his sleeping bag. But a 'respectable-looking' old lady could have a bomb hidden in her capacious handbag. It merely requires searches and vigilance.

The only way to ensure the absolute safety of the Royals is to clear the streets completely of any persons at all.

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04 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM (#3897331)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: CupOfTea

I can remember one city rounding up the homeless and busing them to another city just before the Olympics were held, to "clean up the city." The dump-ee city was furious. So where are they going to PUT these folks (and their stash of meager belongings)? It is a grand opportunity to try some housing solutions for the homeless. Even the best re-housing scheme certainly won't take care of everyone, sadly.

In Cleveland, which is undergoing a large surge in trendy, upscale living, the court has JUST thrown out a city anti-panhandling law as unconstitutional. As someone who works in a downtown area, and deals with social services for homeless regularly, one of the things I see with those who are new to the city, or visiting from the suburbs and outlying areas (as I suspect many of those viewing a royal wedding might be) is the surprise, disgust, and disbelief in encountering the homeless, particularly the mentally ill. Not wanting to offend the moneyed class with those who are abjectly poor is a significant marker of how out of kilter our civic priorities are.

Joanne in the lovely suburb of Siberia on the Heights

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04 Jan 18 - 11:42 AM (#3897335)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

Maybe the Royals could put Rudy Giuliani in charge of clearing the streets.....

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04 Jan 18 - 04:36 PM (#3897368)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Donuel

CupOfTea good Op Ed. Good luck doing the good work.

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05 Jan 18 - 02:35 AM (#3897426)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: mg

no, i think it is rarely a personal choice, although a series of bad choices could lead to it. there are a large number of people who can not navigate the complexities of society but who could do fairly well in a more structured environment, where they were expected to work to the extent of their health and abilities, leaving time for family, recreation etc. but not much for lounging. i personally fall into this category. they should be fairly easy to provide for.

they need to be sorted out and triaged. the police or some sort of security operation need to be handed the violent criminals and those heavy into some drugs and alcohol. the violent, criminally insane ones can not be handled without strong security. they can not be handled by church groups, garden societies etc. once they are out of the picture, the rest, even those with non-violent mental illnesses, are not that hard, unless they are contagious with tb etc.

a small community can not provide very nice shelters because they will be flooded from afar. it needs to be national.

everyone will say studies prove people do best with housing. well, of course they do. what do you do in the meantime? a tent in an enclosed area, with a storm shelter, with showers and toilets, and security cameras and security guards would suffice in a number of places for a number of people, on a temporary basis. it is easy to get food in..think of the school lunches thrown out each day. problem is always plumbing, but with creative composting, filtered burning, things become possible. if we can put a woman on the moon we can figure this out. some tent encampments do quite well policing themselves etc. many veterans would find this a familiar lifestyle. you need shelter from extreme cold and heat and storms. you need protection from vermin, wild animals and human creeps.

if people were screened as to violence, contagion, drug and alcohol use, you could house many of the non-violent in national parks. they always need to be supervised, inspected, removed into more security situations as needed. there are county fairgrounds. there are unused schools and dying strip malls.

i wish we worked on this instead of getting a tax break.

my bottom line....keep working toward good housing for all. in the meantime, get them out of the doorways, out of the rain, into something. guarantee everyone enough food and shelter so they do not have to steal etc. to stay alive. expect that the able-bodied will work at something, parks, painting properties, cooking for each other etc. and adjust their benefits accordingly..again, if they are able.

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05 Jan 18 - 02:43 AM (#3897428)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

Regarding the question of whether homelessness is a personal choice: from my observations, it does seem to sometimes be the case. For a variety of reasons, some people just can't handle living in a shelter, or in an house or apartment - so, some of them choose to live on the streets, even though they may be miserable at times. That's just the way they are. A lot of times, that's due to mental illness.
As communities, it's up to us to deal with that reality. We're always going to have some people who are going to live on the streets. They're citizens, too - and they have all the rights that the rest of us have. In most nations, that means that they are entitled to a significant amount of personal freedom and dignity.
-Joe-

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05 Jan 18 - 02:56 AM (#3897432)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: mg

i think there have to be limits...for public safety and hygiene, for the rights of businesses to conduct business without people sleeping in their doorways. there could be more open space safe places to sleep. we have a public health nightmare looming and we have to look at the rights of the homeless vs. the rights of all. some of people's concerns about sleeping in shelters is quite justified. they can get robbed, assaulted etc. good cameras, good screening and sorting of who goes where can help. but you can;'t encourage a major epidemic because of what people prefer.

i think at least an intermediate, and qed solution is using vans, five wheelers, trailers etc. they don't have to have working motors. they could be towed. the population could be trained to fix them, take care of each other, cook, take care of grounds etc. there is a lot of land in america, and there are a lot of old trailers that can be acquired for free or almost nothing. again, i am always implying that people need to be sorted out and criminals and violent and scarey people need to be treated, decently but assuredly, by law enforcement.

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05 Jan 18 - 03:23 AM (#3897439)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

The ideas suggested here for America are probably good ones, but the controversy was begun by Police being concerned about security around the Royal Wedding next year in Windsor UK.
It would be a bit difficult to provide large areas of open-air or trailer-type accommodation for rough sleepers in UK cities, due to lack of space, cost of facilities etc. But triage for them might be a possibility, to sort through their many problems and difficulties and address each individual's needs. Addictions and mental/physical ill-health could be treated. But no-one could physically force them to attend or participate, unless rather overbearing legislation was brought into force.
I agree wholeheartedly with Joe regarding respecting their personal dignity.
It wrings my heart when we go into Norwich and pass quite a few of these poor souls, especially in the freezing weather. We often buy a coffee and a pack of sandwiches for one or two. But it isn't the answer I know.

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05 Jan 18 - 03:45 AM (#3897446)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

My former boss, a nun, has a homeless friend named Kevin that she watches out for. Kevin lives in an illegal tent community beside the American River in Sacramento, and my boss doesn't think he'd be able to calm down enough to live in a building. But when she was in town, she would pick him up once a week and take him to her home to have a bath and a hot meal. She also helped him manipulate the medical bureaucracy.

My daughter has been homeless once in a while. It's hard for her to live with or around people. Right now, she's living in a room provided by my ex-wife, but she's not very happy there. We're trying to buy a condominium for her, but we're not sure she'll want to live there - or if she'll be able to live with neighbors.

Homelessness is a sad and complex situation. There are no easy answers, and no one-fits-all solutions.

-Joe-

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05 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM (#3897457)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Nigel Parsons

It's a difficult question.
There's a lot of homelessness in Cardiff, and the Council have promised to do something about it (finding homes etc.)
But there are some who do not want to be confined to a 'home'.

I do, sometimes give directly to the homeless. But I wonder whether I'm helping, or hindering, the situation.
If no one gave to the homeless, would they be more likely to accept help from the government, or from homeless charities?

I know there have been reports in the papers of situations in London where a non-homeless person arrives daily, complete with the usual paraphernalia of a homeless person, and sets up a space just to live off the charity. Apparently there are some areas of London where it can provide more than the living wage.

As I started, It's a difficult question.

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05 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM (#3897458)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"It's a difficult question."
You will never work out the complications of homelessness until everybody has been given the right to choose whether to live in a home or whether to live otherwise - making it "complicated" is the excuse the Establisment gives for not being able or willing to do that
Ireland is now facing a massive rise in homelessness because the wealthy have now realised the profit that is to be made out of property
One of the worst threats to Irish society is 'Vulture Capitalism' in the shape of companies like Goldman Sachs buying up entire estates of rented property, evicting the tenants and 'gentrifying' the houses and reselling them to the better off.
A few years ago there was a superb American film, 'The Big Short', which showed how Vulture Capitalism brought the world to its economic knees - frightening
Jim Carroll

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05 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM (#3897470)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

I suppose giving the homeless some money might be a bad idea, as they could spend it on drink or drugs. The prisoners I worked with told me that's what the aim was - to beg for enough cash to buy a wrap of heroin.
We think that a hot drink and some food could help them a little, and do no harm, so we do that when we can.
I admire your boss Joe, the nun who took her protege Kevin home for a hot bath and a meal. Very practical Christianity in action! Like the Salvation Army, who do a lot in this field.

I think the most important thing is people's attitude to the homeless and to beggars. Some people attack them, spit on them and shout abuse.
In my view they have enough to suffer without such cruel and uncalled-for behaviour. I sometimes wonder where compassion went...

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05 Jan 18 - 05:57 AM (#3897476)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
"It's a difficult question."
You will never work out the complications of homelessness until everybody has been given the right to choose whether to live in a home or whether to live otherwise - making it "complicated" is the excuse the Establisment gives for not being able or willing to do that

Yes, but by that argument, there are people who wish to live otherwise. It is then very difficult to complain about the problems of homelessness if there is no way for the 'establishment' to distinguish between the two types of homelessness (choice/circumstance).

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05 Jan 18 - 06:06 AM (#3897478)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

Eliza - You may be interested in this article from The New Statesman


Entitled "Why you should give money directly and unconditionally to homeless people" it is quite controversial but does provide some balance to the opinion that giving to the homeless may be a bad idea.

Nice to see you back BTW.

DtG

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05 Jan 18 - 06:42 AM (#3897485)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"It is then very difficult to complain about the problems of homelessness if there is no way for the 'establishment' to distinguish between the two types of homelessness (choice/circumstance). "
No problem at all Nigel - counting the increasing number of people who have been made homeless for economic reasons might be a good start
You can start with Thatcher's campaign to turn homes into investments with that one
This is a disgusting poloy by the right to wash its hands of the problems that are being caused by a failing, greed-based system
The blaming of the victims has now had a gruesome new aspect added to it, the girlfriend of the Ukip leader has described Grenfell Tower as "a nest of illegal immigrants"
Now your political football is really on the field.
The next logical step is to describe the growing hospital crisis as being 'a life choice' caused by bad diets and smoking (two of the mainstays of our economy - fatty foods and tobacco).
Jim Caarroll

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05 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM (#3897491)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Oh Dave, that article expresses what I have always felt deep down. My sister has always nagged me about NOT giving them any money, but as the article says, they have the right to decide what to do with it, and who are we to dictate to them about their choices? Forcing them to 'hit rock bottom' seems terribly cruel.

Those prisoners used to say that a fiver was always welcome, as a desperate need for a 'fix' causes untold suffering. However, my husband and I haven't too much spare cash, as all our resources go generally to help his huge impoverished family in Ivory Coast (His sister has now contracted TB). A coffee/sandwich isn't a lot to offer, but perhaps £2 would be a small help? I just don't know, but I have to say I have been reduced to tears by the plight of some of these poor folk. And we feel so lucky to have the blessing of a comfortable home, central heating and enough to eat...

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05 Jan 18 - 07:56 AM (#3897510)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

The answer is yes to all of those questions, Iains, and there will be other factors we have not even mentioned. It is indeed complex, as in any issue involving people. To put the blame at the door of just one or even a few of the issues is futile and counter productive.

Eliza - Glad you liked it. I thought you would and I had the same reaction when I first saw it. I am lucky enough to be able to spare some cash but even then I cannot give to everyone. When I mentioned this to my lovely, caring daughters the advice they gave was brilliant. Even if we cannot give money, we can always give something. A smile. A word. The gloves you are wearing. Give them anything but your contempt :-)

DtG

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05 Jan 18 - 09:24 PM (#3897660)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: ChanteyLass

I've read that there are places in the US where "tiny houses" are being built for homeless people. I wonder how that is working out.

I have a friend who gives gift cards for fast food restaurants to homeless people. I wonder if they use them, sell them, or throw them away. I've also read that some fast food places don't like homeless people to eat there. (Local managers' decisions, not corporate policy, as far as I know.)

I donate to homeless shelters, food banks, etc., and often wonder what else I should/can do.

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06 Jan 18 - 12:29 AM (#3897668)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

I liked the New Statesman article that Dave linked to, also.

Here in the U.S., the standard line is that we should give our donations to charities and not to panhandlers/beggars, because many of the panhandlers are not truly needy and can make up to $300 a day in a good spot. Even people I know who operate facilities for the homeless, encourage people not to give to panhandlers.

But it just doesn't feel right to turn my head the other way and not give anything, so sometimes I do give. I guess I'll always have mixed feelings about it, but I appreciate the New Statesman author who flat-out says to give to beggars and not try to discern whether their need is honest.

-Joe-

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06 Jan 18 - 05:08 AM (#3897687)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

THe greatest and longest standing cop-out of any government, past and present to explain away their inability or unwillingness to live up to their responsibilities is to describe them as "complicated"
The overwhelming cause of homelessness today is down to the fact that homes have been priced out of the reach of many working and unemployed people
THere really is nothing "complicated" about that
Blaming the homeless for their own plight is inhuman and disgusting
Jim Carroll

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06 Jan 18 - 05:41 AM (#3897694)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

"THe greatest and longest standing cop-out of any government, past and present to explain away their inability or unwillingness to live up to their responsibilities is to describe them as "complicated"
Governments are supposed to exhibit fiscal responsibility. Endless borrowing has consequences. There is no magic wand!

"Blaming the homeless for their own plight is inhuman and disgusting"
Who has done that????????????????????????????

"The overwhelming cause of homelessness today is down to the fact that homes have been priced out of the reach of many working and unemployed people"
After the credit crunch, house prices in many countries, such as the US and Spain fell dramatically. But, in the UK, the drop in house prices has been more muted. This is because the UK never had a boom in house building like other countries.
Housing completions have fallen close to 100,000 a year – well below the level (of 250,000) needed to meet the growth in the number of households. Over the last four quarters to Q3 2013, new build starts have averaged just 22,000 per quarter.
Is the above purely due to incompetance/unwillingness etc. of successive governments Labour, conservative coalition.

It is far more complex than that. Take a look at nimbys, lack of incentive for the private sector, sale of public housing, green belt restrictions-the list is endless.

Once again your cheap shots are largely baseless.

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06 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM (#3897701)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"Who has done that????????????????????????????"
THe bunch of Tory twats who run Windsor - that is what this discussion is about
Thos TTs here who suggest that the question is complicated (particularly the sicko who mentioned mental health as an issue) are doing exactly the same defending the "nuffin' to do with us" stance of the right.
Since Thatcher turned homes into investments, homelessness became an inevitable nd growing feature of British life - submerging that in a mass of other excuses is defending the predatory nature of a property market
Now we have the classic contradiction of the system we live under - property prices linked directly to employment - where there is work, housing is placed largely out of the reach of the workers - the South East soft underbelly being typical, where the price of accommodation makes living there impossible on today's wages
Jim Carroll

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06 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM (#3897703)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

Lack of affordable housing is only part of it, Jim. If we were to build a million 75000 pound homes tomorrow most of those currently homeless could not afford to rent, let alone buy, one anyway.

In full agreement about the twats at Windsor.


DtG

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06 Jan 18 - 08:04 AM (#3897708)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: DMcG

Just for comparison: as a result of Brexit my sister and her husband have sold their house a little outside Celle in Germany to move back to the UK. I won't go into details but their history reveals how the difference in housing policies has affected house prices in the two countries. Suffice it to say their 16 room German house is worth less than a very small UK one outside the hotspot regions.

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06 Jan 18 - 08:11 AM (#3897710)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"Lack of affordable housing is only part of it, Jim"
No argument there Dave
Just looking at the things that are being out of reach of working people - travel by train has just hit the fan, more to come

"They're always ready to receive, but not inclined to give
Very soon they won't allow a working man to live"
As Tommy Armstrong put it
Jim Carroll

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06 Jan 18 - 08:23 AM (#3897714)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

While I agree one can't have too much affordable housing and sensibly-priced rental units etc, there are actually homeless people who really can't seem to cope in any kind of accommodation and either have to be evicted, wander off or start to 'sofa surf' then rough-sleep. I have met some in my contact with prisoners. They maybe mentally ill, or so addicted to alcohol or drugs that they simply can't handle being in a house or flat. They need help, psychologically and socially, in special units where small numbers are guided by a resident mentor. They need compassion, understanding and much patience, not readily found in today's world.
I have also seen in our area groups of people who seem to be in families, and possibly of Romanian, Lithuanian etc origin (certainly Eastern European) who have migrated here to seek their fortune and sleep in odd corners of the parks or under overpasses. They probably aren't eligible for council accommodation, or must go on some sort of waiting list.
It seems inhumane to expect them to 'live' outside like that, but I don't know how one could help them.
One prisoner I tried to mentor was offered a small 'studio' council flat on his release, and promptly turned it into a drug den, invited a whole bunch of rather scary people to kip on his floor and filled the entire place with drug paraphenalia. The endless stream of dealers who traipsed up and down the stairs caused the Police to get involved, and the lad was promptly evicted and ended up homeless once more.
Homelessness isn't a simple problem, but indeed VERY complex.

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06 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM (#3897718)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

My Dad, rest his soul, used to invite what we then called tramps into the house for a good meal. Often accompanied by a vodka bottle :-) Much to my Mum's chagrin!

Maybe that is the easy European way and perhaps that may help the families you mention, Eliza? Not saying you should personally do that but maybe the local authority could help residents who were willing to do similar?

DtG

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06 Jan 18 - 08:37 AM (#3897721)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

Easy=east.

I will get used to the vagueries of Android one day soon...

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06 Jan 18 - 03:49 PM (#3897784)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Stanron

The overwhelming cause of homelessness today is down to the fact that homes have been priced out of the reach of many working and unemployed people

Any one watch 'Homes Under The Hammer' here in the UK? At the beginning and end of each renovation local Estate Agents are called in to assess the value of the proprty. Either for sale or rental. It is not unusual for rental return on the investment to be 8%. My cash ISA returns somewhere about 1% if I'm 'lucky'. It's not surprising that those people with enough money invest in property to rent. Investing in property is too good an opportunity to miss as long as Bank interest rates are kept at such a consistent low. Unfortunately this creates a scarcity of property for sale to first time buyers and pressures rental rates upwards.

When interest rates were significantly higher, like in the 1970s, Saving money brought in higher rates of interest, property investment was less attractive to the average saver and it was easier to rent. Obversely, the value of wages was constantly eroded and the result of that was continuous industrial action for higher wages.

You could look at these two examples as extreme swings of an economic pendulum but the financial crash of 2008 was a kind of anomaly that might have thrown a cyclic model completely out of kilter.

The answer to all economic problems is growth. What policies will promote growth?

And don't suggest Keynesianism, Keynes based his ideas on a pre Welfare State Britain. Back then the bulk of Public Spending was to do with defence and administration of the Empire, and that Empire generated revenue. There was the opportunity for the Government to increase it's spending on homeland projects.

Today the bulk of our spending is on ourselves, the NHS, Education and Welfare. There is no spare. We spend more than revenue provides. And forget the mantra that 'borrowing is cheap'. It won't always be cheap as students who are paying off their loans will recently have discovered.

If interest rates went up to just 10% now we could go into a deep and damaging recession. Then we would all know the proper meaning of 'Austerity' as opposed to the 'tough times for some' that we have now.

Back in the 1970s Wilson, Heath and Callahan all knew that wage restraint was not the solution to the inflation / wages rise spiral. All three eventually had to introduce wage restraint and for all three it failed. (More info on this in the 'Turning Points 1979 Election' program). Margret Thatcher had a different plan and, like it or not, it worked (in it's own way).

We need someone with a new plan, not Keynes, not Monetarism but something new. I don't think it will be Corbyn but I have, occasionally, been wrong before.

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06 Jan 18 - 05:17 PM (#3897793)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

"We need someone with a new plan, not Keynes, not Monetarism but something new. I don't think it will be Corbyn but I have, occasionally, been wrong before."

Having a plan is one thing. To bring it to a successful conclusion is another. The major problem is that governments fire fight inherited/developing situations that often negate or radically modify whatever long term plans that they had in their toy box for implementation. Also many of these problems such as homelessness tend to be pushed aside by far more pressing problems. How do you prioritize? Does a homeless family with young children in an emergency shelter have a greater need for rehousing than a tramp dossing under a hedge? Should the public purse pay extortionate rents in central London for people when the same sum could house many more in cheaper areas?
Do defects in the Health Service contribute to homelessness? Should more resources plug that gap?
    There are conversations that we as a society need to have in order to address these problems. Partisan politics merely polarizes and creates further problems. The only way to derive a solution is for society as a whole to decide how to allocate finite resources. Deciding on a mechanism to fully isolate the problem and point out potential solutions is a tricky one. In the UK the closest we come to such an arrangement is the Public Enquiry or more particularly a royal commission. Just how politicians are to be coerced into such an exercise escapes me. Perhaps an online petition?

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06 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM (#3897805)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

Partisan politics merely polarizes and creates further problems. The only way to derive a solution is for society as a whole to decide how to allocate finite resources.

I think that is more or less what I said in the Nigel Lawson thread is it not Iains? Glad we agree on it. Maybe some progress can be made even if only here on Mudcat :-)

DtG

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06 Jan 18 - 08:25 PM (#3897817)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

"The answer to all economic problems is growth."

Well yes, if you're a paid-up member of the capitalist system. But if you're disabled, or a pensioner on the state provision only (just about the worst in Europe, but hey), or unemployed, or homeless, or on zero-hours, or if you can't afford your rent control-free rent, or if you rely on food banks or on selling the Big Issue, economic growth will not give you any answers at all. But, of course, that wouldn't really worry you Tories.

"Today the bulk of our spending is on ourselves, the NHS, Education and Welfare. There is no spare."

Oh, there's plenty of spare. But we choose to give that spare to people who are already as rich as Croesus, the offshore tax-evaders, the non-doms, the shareholders who make money (not earn money) without ever getting off their fat arses and the multinationals who hold us to ransom by demanding low corporation tax. If only we clawed back that spare, we would have tbe best health service and education service and welfare provision on planet Earth. Still, you won't like that. It simply isn't the Tory way.

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06 Jan 18 - 09:23 PM (#3897819)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Despite the vast difference from the situation in British Isles, perhaps these data from the US may shed some light on the issues of political will, fiscal priorities, and scale of expense in caring for the homeless:

In the States, there are an estimated five hundred thousand homeless.

There are over two million prisoners.

The cost to government of their incarceration is approximately eighty billion dollars. A study by Washington University finds that for every dollar of governmental expense, there is an additional ten dollars in social costs.

Although there is no lack of political will to bear this financial burden, for some unspecified reason the problem of one-quarter that number of homeless people is supposed to be intractible, and it is left up to individual communities to patch solutions together as best they can.

In this context of such national indifference, pondering the details of a treatment plan seems marginally relevant.

In the British Isles things are no doubt very different, but is it really the case that the nations are bound and determined to solve this problem at all costs--if only they were not frustrated by, for example, the uncooperative attitudes of the homeless themselves?

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06 Jan 18 - 11:54 PM (#3897822)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

Solving the problem of homelessness is complicated, Jim. Homeless people are individuals, and have individual needs. Many simply can't live in a large dormitory. Some need treatment for mental health issues or addictions. Some just don't know how to live in a rental house, and need some sort of preparation to be responsible renters. Some need institutional care. We just can't build a one-size-fits-all facility and think we've fulfilled our obligation. It takes dedication, hard work, compassion, and good ideas. And then somehow, you have to keep the people in nearby heighborhoods happy - that's the toughest part.

I've been working with others since about 2012 to establish on a homeless shelter for our community. We opened it in 2015 with a capacity of 47, and we were allowed to keep it open from 5 PM to 7 AM. We now have room for 100 people, and they can stay round-the-clock. We have developed programs for treatment of drug and alcohol addiction, and the county provides mental health treatment. We have a class on how to be a responsible renter, and we have a program that places residents in permanent housing. We also offer some job training, but not as much as we'd like. The town has a homeless population of about 250, so a 100-person shelter doesn't fill the need completely.

It has been an interesting challenge, and I've enjoyed it.

-Joe-

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07 Jan 18 - 12:07 AM (#3897823)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: mg

do what you can and do the easiest first. the purse factory folds and google engineers move in. 50 women are homeless. they should not be hard to house. make google pay by the way. set up a dormitory and make it as self-sustaining as possible. many can cook, they can have a greenhouse on the roof perhaps etc.

there are many generally low-iq, low skill set, but basically harmless souls shuffling around. set up a little village in the country. Nice people can run it with almost no security. Volunteers can do a lot. Perhaps they can have a little dairy and milk some goats and make some cheese. Pretty easy.

Keep doing that.

You have violent cannibal rapists. What do you do? Police state has to take care of that group. Volunteers can perhaps help once basic security is set up.

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07 Jan 18 - 01:28 AM (#3897828)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: mg

i think a lot of populations could be more or less self sustaining, and could provide benefits for others as well. a lot of them have skills, construction, clerical, cooking. has anyone ever inventoried their skills? A lot have no fixed attachment to any one place (I am guessing) and will go where they think times will be better. Again, first and foremost, sort them out. Set up nicer hostels etc. farther from center of town. They need food and shelter, but it does not need to be on wall street or in front of buckingham palace. make sure they are assigned to an appropriate level of security and give most of them chores in lieux of salary. This does not all have to take a huge lot of money once things are set up. Again I am only referring to the lost their job and can't get back on their feet population, or the low iq never had a job because the factory went away population. You will still have the drug addicts, and can work with those next. Some can't be helped much, although all should be given a chance. A secure place where they can not hurt others with food, shelter, entertainment, and access to legal (or make some of them legal) drugs. It might end up being a hospice, but should be clean and warm and better than what they have now.

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07 Jan 18 - 01:56 AM (#3897829)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Bless you for your work, Joe.

Wouldn't it be even more exciting and enjoyable if the government spent, say, half the amount per homeless person as it does per prisoner? With a homeless population of 250 @ $20,000 per person, that would give you five million dollars to work with.

Not to belittle the complications arising from the individual humanity of each homeless person, hospitals, for example, face perhaps a greater variation in individual needs they must serve. And beleaguered as they are, they don't find these vast differences themselves an overwhelming obstacle--because in comparison they have much greater revenues and institutional depth to draw on--insurance, medicare, medicaid, Affordable Care, and so forth.

The plea of scarce government revenues makes me sick: An analysis by Bloomberg estimates the new tax bill will create a one trillion dollar loss in revenue over ten years. If we can throw that much away, couldn't we have held back a hundredth of that for our half million homeless neighbors?

In Maine the death rate per 100,000 is about 10--high in part because Maine's population is relatively old. Point-in-time surveys of Portland Maine's homeless population show about 500 people. In 2017, forty homeless people died in Portland, a death rate 800 times that of the state overall. (And of course the rate is higher compared to their age cohorts, because homeless people die on average 28 years earlier than the general population, so they don't GET to be old.) It's a freaking plague! No, it's not, it's a policy of decimation.

To me it's a national disgrace that agencies serving the homeless have to rely on volunteers and scramble for non-profit donations and what they can get from municipal budgets after operating costs are covered.

I love what you do, Joe, but it's a shame you have to do it.

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07 Jan 18 - 02:20 AM (#3897831)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: DMcG

I have suspected for a long time that the reason for the UK low productivity is intimately linked with the high cost of housing. In the one hand so much of what people earn goes to the landlords, and on the other it is normally more profitable and certainly more secure for a wealthy person to be a landlord than to invest in companies to make them more profitable. So I see policies aimed at changing this to be as important as simply.building more houses.

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07 Jan 18 - 04:26 AM (#3897839)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Just a few points:-

From my (admittedly limited) experience, the populations of 'Prisoners' and 'The Homeless' are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Sadly, many homeless people have been in prison, and many released prisoners become homeless.

By reducing expenditure on HMP Prisons, one risks security breaches, riots and other mutinous behaviour, and despite their criminality, prisoners have human rights.

I'm a bit wary of Institutions for the homeless. I have studied the history of the Union Workhouses in England, and I have an idea that many homeless folk of today would never consent to reside in buildings run on authoritarian lines. They often prefer their freedom, and would probably drift off back onto the streets rather than be regimented (even in the most benevolent way) Such places by their very nature must have rules, and this is where the difficulties begin.

I suspect that there are indeed some among the homeless who would appreciate a house or flat and cannot afford to rent one. Money would help here. But many have already been housed by Local Authorities and have been unable to sustain the status of tenant.

I do agree with mg above in that one should start by 'sorting' them into various categories, the mentally ill, the addicts etc and have a plan for each type. Many are also in dire need of medical attention.

But one cannot sweep the streets, scoop up the non-conforming Homeless and wheel them away into Systems. That to me has a rather sinister undertone...

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07 Jan 18 - 05:05 AM (#3897842)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

Senoufou. You rightly highlight again the fact that a "one size fits all" approach is doomed to failure. As many have said, people are on the streets for a variety of reasons therefore it follows that only a multiplicity of approaches will help reduce the problem. Dormitories in a modern day workhouse environment are not going to be any part of the solution, other than a temporary expedient providing shelter from harsh weather. 50 in a room against freezing in the street is a no brainer for all but a hardcore. The closure of many large Victorian asylums(Psychiatristsc hospitals) in the 80's left many exposed vulnerable people, as shown below
"Yet in 21st-century Ireland, one of our worst fears for de-institutionalisation has come to pass ? while inpatient beds have fallen, lack of appropriate accommodation alongside shortages in community-based mental health services have left some people with severe mental health difficulties with nowhere to go for a safe home.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/homeless-people-with-mental-health-difficulties-need-more-than-key-in-the-door-1.2062351
https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/documents/backgrounders/smi-and-homelessness.pdf
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/179/5/381

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07 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM (#3897846)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

Presenting homelessness as a psychiatric condition really is as low as it gets - beats Windsor's ethnic cleansing for the Royal marriage into a cocked hat
Mental problems are, of course a tine part of the problem as is home abuse forcing children to leave
The overall cause of homelessness is the price of property and the acute shortage of rented accommodation - everything else is an added consideration
Jay- sus
Jim Carroll

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07 Jan 18 - 05:31 AM (#3897847)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

Even if metal problems were an issue, the appalling attitude towards mental health treatment by a government who is happy to stand by and see sufferers locked up as criminals rather than be treated as someone in need of help rather than provide the necessary treatment is as much to blame as anything
Jim Carroll

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07 Jan 18 - 05:51 AM (#3897852)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

"As many have said, people are on the streets for a variety of reasons"
"Presenting homelessness as a psychiatric condition really is as low as it gets ? ?   ?    ?    ?   ?"

Jim why do you always pick up the wrong end of the stick. To all but a fool the most vulnerable are those with mental issues. It would seem sensible in a caring world to start with the most needy.
You quote government as the problem.which one Irish, Americam, UK, or the entire UN? It is a social problem and a question of what society is prepared to tolerate. We no longer hang starving people for stealing a loaf of bread- We kid ourselves we are too civilised for that but we quite happily live in a dog eat dog society and cross the road to avoid upsetting our sensibilities.
It requires people to get severely pissed off with the realities before any government will sully their hands with the problem.
Try reading the links!

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07 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM (#3897853)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

No, sorry Jim, but as I said earlier a lack of housing is not the main reason. It is a major factor but if you cannot afford to pay or do not want the responsibility no amount of empty flats will help. Also, mental illness is a factor. I do not think anyone has said it applies to all homeless but some, from experience and other studies, are suffering from various conditions. Again, no amount of property will help them.

We need a proper joined up central policy to address all the issues. Not people trying to make political mileage out of the suffering of others.

DtG

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07 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM (#3897865)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

We expect them to fight on our behalf and then abandon the most needy.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Enoch Powell's views of many years back.
http://studymore.org.uk/xpowell.htm

" An estimated 26% of homeless adults staying in shelters live with serious mental illness and an estimated 46% live with severe mental illness and/or substance use disorders. Approximately 20% of state prisoners and 21% of local jail prisoners have ?a recent history? of a mental health condition."

For JIM

https://www.homeless.org.uk/facts/our-research/homelessness-and-health-research

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07 Jan 18 - 06:54 AM (#3897871)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Is ANYONE here advocating a one-size-fits-all solution? Raise your hand and say "Duh."

The point I tried to make before is that multifaceted solutions are much easier to implement if the funding for them is there: Hospitals, for example, care for people who need emergency treatment, outpatient treatment, intensive care, acute medical and surgical treatment; care for catatonic schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease, quadriplegia, ALS, AIDS, drug and alcohol addictions, and so forth.

If they fall short in treating a certain problem--for example, inadequate Suboxone treatment for opioid addiction, as in Morgantown, WV--it's not because the problem is an awkward fit with the others or a conceptual challenge; it's because there isn't enough money to cope with the burgeoning problem.

Similarly, with adequate funding the NIMBY problem would shrink, as it would be unnecessary to warehouse people in shelters where they have a large impact on neighborhoods.

It's true that due to inadequate treatment and unbelievably stressful conditions, homeless people suffer more from both physical and psychological problems, which in turn make them more vulnerable to homelessness. However, when I was a nurses' assistant, I worked with upper middle class people who also suffered from acute psychological problems. Their misery and their families' were heartbreaking, but they were not helpless on the street, not suffering from malnutrition, not in danger of freezing to death, not liable to addiction or contracting HIV.

No one here does, but others do stigmatize the homeless by characterizing them as mentally ill the one hand, or homeless by choice on the other. Is a boy who runs away from a home where he is repeatedly raped homeless by choice? Is a woman who will not stay at a shelter because she fears assault? A man who prefers to sleep rough lest he lose his shopping cart that carries all he owns? Or another who won't go to the shelter because he is afraid people there will control his mind? Just like hospital patients, students, or old people, homeless people have a variety of needs that cannot be met adequately without adequate funding. If society meets its obligations to its most vulnerable members, intelligence and respect for each as a human being can deal with the varieties of suffering that afflict homeless people. If not, I am afraid, not.

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07 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM (#3897874)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim why do you always pick up the wrong end of the stick."
You have just put up three links to mental health problems and you have yet to comment on the fact that the major cause of the problem was when houses weer turned into investments and placed out of reach of a large portion of the British people - what other stick is there to grasp
You hung your colours to the mast on homelessness when you dismissed the idea that survivors of the Grenfell fire should not be housed in local vacant buildings - property before people every time.
"It is a social problem and a question of what society is prepared to tolerate"
When Goldman Sachs starts burying up rented property and evicting the tenants as they are now doing in Ireland, it becomes an international problem
Dave
I agree with you entirely about some not being able to afford 'affordable homes' but the first step has to be to make a roof over your head a right rather than a privelege
That was what the post war Labour Government had in mind when they established council housing, and that is what Mad Maggie destroyed when she respectabalised greed
Jim Carroll

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07 Jan 18 - 07:16 AM (#3897876)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

To a thoroughly decent charity minded egg like Prince Harry, the idea of sweeping the Windsor streets clean of the homeless would be totally against his principles, just because folks in jags look better on television than folks in rags - not hos style at all.

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07 Jan 18 - 07:19 AM (#3897877)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

Hos style - his style of course!!!!!

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07 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM (#3897878)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Mr Red

others are addicts

homelessness may not be a choice but, for me, addiction is and I chose not. I chose not on many chemical fronts, and my resolve didn't waver despite a few dramas.

It does make me feel good because I can afford to stay in a house. True, I use the bus a lot, and steward at many Folk Festivals rather than buy tickets.

I'm sorry if it offends people but most addictions start from a position of hubris. And there is a cost for that.

The last time I gave to a beggar ( Xmas spirit and all that) was a coin I found minutes earlier. I also made her smile on the fact. I give in more ways.

FWIW an addict has to want to kick the demon, otherwise they are doomed. I volunteered in a community radio that allowed recovering addicts (and others) to make programmes. Made some friends, but they all told the same story - they are shit scared of lapsing, and are not complimentary of those that lapse.

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07 Jan 18 - 07:40 AM (#3897880)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Iains, Jim did not say that the homeless were free from mental illness; exactly the contrary. What he did say was as you quoted, "Presenting homelessness as a psychiatric condition really is as low as it gets."

He echoes Cheryl Harkins, homeless in Portland Maine for 7 years and now an advocate with Homeless Voices for Justice: "Homelessness is not a disease, it's a crime against the disadvantaged." And George Batten, Executive Director of West Virginia's Rescue Ministries, "Homelessness is not a disease. In fact it is not contagious. Homelessness can be based in economics." (This was interesting to me, as Portland is my home town and West Virginia my adopted state.)

Oh, and homeless people as criminals and cannibals: They are much more likely to be the victims of crime and cannibalism than the perpetrators. Rather than protect the homeful from the homeless, it would make more sense to protect the latter from the former.

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07 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM (#3897881)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person as we did last year. We gave a temporary home to a beautiful border collie cross that was rescued in Romania, paid for injections, dog passport and transport to the UK, and when arrived here paid considerable vets' (plural) fees for necessary medical treatment to deal with dehydration and more importantly Campylobacter virus. She then had to be spayed.

We eventually found the right forever home for her in the country with children, daily contact with other dogs and people who could give her 2-3 hours exercise every day.

We miss her greatly.

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07 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM (#3897889)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

So sad that little Tiara felt she had to fight for her food when she came to us, as she had had to fight for it before with a lot of other shelter dogs. Even after she had been fed she wanted to fight for our food as well, as if she was afraid that she wouldn’t get fed again. This is what shelter puppies go through and one just has to understand. She is fine now.

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07 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM (#3897905)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person...


Now THERE'S your problem in a nutshell!

When did animals gain more "rights"and become more worthy of compassion than humans?

Sick world we live in, innit?

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07 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM (#3897909)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

I find this all very interesting and it gives me much cause for thought.
As I see it, there is Suffering around us. It can be human beings, animals, and even trees, plants etc. One can be sensitive to it all and feel sad and deeply affected (or not).

The second part of the equation is 'What Can Be Done?'
This divides into two parts :- What can Those In Authority Do?'
and 'What Can I Personally Do?'

Some people are totally immune to Suffering, and either don't notice it or completely ignore it.
Some feel that 'Nothing Should Be Done' ('they brought it on themselves', 'they don't deserve help' etc.)
Those in Authority may say 'There's not enough money available', 'It's not our problem' etc.
An individual may think 'My family need my resources, no-one else'.
Or 'They look dodgy, I don't want to get involved'.

OR:-
Governments can be determined to address things, set aside far more financial coverage and call in experts, people experienced in the field etc. and really do as much as possible to make things better.

And an individual can, as some on here have already said, do small things in a spirit of kindness and understanding, show compassion and fellow-feeling, determine not to think badly of those who have fallen by the wayside (never mind how smelly, scruffy, drunk, weird, dodgy), and donate whatever they can afford, no matter how small, to Charitable Organisations who know how to act.
It all boils down to mindset, and my two great mentors, Wisdom and Kindness.

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07 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM (#3897910)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

Well Mr GregF it simply depends on your point of view.

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07 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM (#3897931)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Donuel

I am on Joe's side. it's clear he actually knows these folks who are homeless from consequence or by choice. However he has probably not been one yet. We are all one fire away from homelessness in the short run.
Virtually everyone who has posted here have profound humane attitudes toward the homeless.

My interaction with the homeless runs the full spectrum of providing food and shelter to not giving a cent. People who advocate politics of the mean and cruel are blind to their own future. The social contract to care for on another is lost on them. Curing their blindness takes a lifetime in some cases and for some of the most wealthy, forever.

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07 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM (#3897938)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person..."
This says it all fro me
Jim Carroll
We don't pretend we're perfect but we have endearing features,
We're honest and we're always kind to God's four-footed creatures;
Dogs and horses, hamsters, rabbits, little furry things -
Lousy Europeans can't appreciate the pleasure that a little kindness brings.
We're a nation of animal lovers.

When Greeks were being tortured then we always held our peace,
We used to like to spend our summer holidays in Greece;
Cats and ponies, budgies, moths and hairy caterpillars -
Lousy Europeans can't appreciate the pleasure that these little creatures give us,
We're a nation of animal lovers.

When there's hangings in South Africa we just avert our gaze,
But we're tender-hearted to a fault with alley cats and strays;
Remember how the nation nearly had a nervous spasm,
Breathlessly anticipating giant panda's pleasure in a cuddly orgasm,
We're a nation of animal lovers.

When there's rioting in Brixton we're impressively impassive,
But be cruel to a horse and our reaction then is massive;
Guinea pigs and painted terrapin, tropical fishes -
¤ Lesser races cannot understand the simple fact that it would meet with all our wishes
If there were no human beings.

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07 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM (#3897941)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

it simply depends on your point of view.

Hardly, Bonz- that's nonsense, and dangerous nonsense.

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07 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM (#3897942)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

And your point is Jim Carroll????????????????????????????????

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07 Jan 18 - 02:02 PM (#3897949)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"And your point is Jim Carroll"
Get someone to explain it to you Bozo
Jim Carroll

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07 Jan 18 - 05:05 PM (#3897975)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

dum de dum de dum de dum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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08 Jan 18 - 02:53 AM (#3898017)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

Absolutely Iains!

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08 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM (#3898020)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Mr Red

When did animals gain more "rights"and become more worthy of compassion than humans?

Personal choice. But it has to be said, a dog gives back and constantly.

We don't always know how our offerings to beggars is received. Or what used fro (sic). A thankyou (hopefully given) is fleeting.

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08 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM (#3898024)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Just wanted to say to Bonzo:-
I think your compassion and commitment to Tiara were superb, and God bless you for it.

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08 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM (#3898027)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Ebbie

Juneau, Alaska, has its share of homeless people; we have two shelters approximately 12 miles apart (Juneau is a narrow but l o n g town). The shelter near where I live is on a downtown street, close to bars, restaurants and tourist shops. The shelter serves three meals a day and can sleep something like 50 people (10 or so in a separate dormitory for women). The thing is that one has to pass a breathalizer test before one is allowed to go upstairs to bed. If over the limit, out you go. Many of those evicted look for any out of the way for a spot to sleep. Many of the proprietors attend town assembly meetings and demand that something be done to keep the homeless from sleeping in their doorways and alleys. Obviously, they have a point but that doesn't help those without beds.

It has been proposed by some people that the shelter should be moved to the vicinity near our hospital about five miles away. One problem with that is that the homeless wouldn't stay there- what serves as their social life is downtown. Another problem to my mind is that if they were trucked out of downtown, we townspeople would likely forget that we have the problem. Visible as they are now we are reminded constantly that we have to seek solutions.

One recent innovation is a hopeful one. An agency donated land and a building that houses 25 or so people was put up on it. The idea is to identify those who have drinking or other addictions but who are willing to pursue other options, give them a home while they are still using and through counseling and 'socialization' on a one to one basis try to turn lives around.

One other thing that appears to be working quite well is to pursue those on the streets who are willing to live in apartments, put them on Medicaid, give them a stipend and move them off the street that way. A number of them are living in the same complex where I live and mostly, it works. A few of them do eventually get evicted, mostly for the same reason that was outlined above: bringing in their 'mates' from the streets resulting in the occasional drunken party or brawl. But by and large it works.

On a personal note, when I lived up the street from the shelter and frequently walked my dog past it I felt safer because of the homeless men. They kept an eye out for me- if I walked in a different direction for a couple of days they worried that something had happened to me or my dog. I have no doubt whatever that they would have come to my aid if anyone had hassled or assaulted me.

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08 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM (#3898029)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

Whatever Blair called himself, was a Tory in Labour drag - it's waht you do not what you call yourself that identify yourself
Thatcher's 'Ringt to Buy' scheme destroyed social housing in Britain well before Blair raised his ugly head
The post war Labour Government introduced National Health, Housing and nationalisation schemes into Britain and gave working people a voice in their own lives despite much bitter opposition from the Tories - those scemes virtually rebuilt Britain after the war.
That has been all but destroyed by Toriy Govenments with the help (or indifference) of the Labour right wing.
Go count the hospital beds or the shipyards Britain has no loger got - (or industry in genera for that matter)
Britain's greatest import today (30 odd percent of it) is money, benefiting only those directly involved in finance.
Jim Carroll

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08 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM (#3898042)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

" those scemes virtually rebuilt Britain after the war."

I think you will find the Irish made a massive contribution to rebuilding Britain after the war. Macalpine's Fusiliers may just be a song but it encapsulated an underlying reality.
" A wave of emigration to England took place between the 1930s, and 1960s by Irish escaping poor economic conditions following the establishment of the Irish Free State. This was furthered by the severe labour shortage in Britain during the mid-20th century, which depended largely on Irish immigrants to work in the areas of construction and domestic labour. The extent of the Irish contribution to Britain's construction industry in the 20th century may be gauged from Sir William MacAlpine's 1998 assertion that the contribution of the Irish to the success of his industry had been 'immeasurable'."
"he late 1940s and the 1950s constituted a remarkable era of mass emigration. Over 500,000 people left independent Ireland between 1945 and 1960 and it is estimated 75% came to the UK."

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08 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM (#3898045)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"the Irish made a massive contribution to rebuilding Britain after the war. Mcalpine's Fusiliers may just be a song but it encapsulated an underlying reality."
Not sure what relevance this has to the discussion Iaians
I know all about the Fusiliers - my old man was one of them thanks to the British Government's attempts to appease Hitler
The immigrants, who had a perfect right to seek work in England due to the fact that the Empire had raped and plundered their home countries for many centuries, largely took on work the indigenous population did not want and were persecuted abominably for doing so, right up to Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' scum
McAlpine, Laing, McAdam.... and all the rest were hardly the benefactors you choose you paint them - they made their fortunes exploiting the Irish by imposing abominable conditions of work on them - you should read the documentary writings of a one-time contributor to this forum, Ultan Cowley, whose 'The Men Who Built Britain' exposes the animal-like conditions of Irish labour.
None of this is new, of course; from the mid nineteenth century onwards, British mine-owners were using the plight of Irish refugees fleeing the effects of a mismanaged (possibly deliberately) by Britain famine to drive down the wages of indigenous workers
The result was starvation level conditions imposed on both the working Irish and the pittance paid to the English miners
The side effect was an inbuilt racism towards the Irish that is still apparent
Jim Carroll

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08 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM (#3898047)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash

Iains, could you do everyone a favour and add a link to things you quote. I'm not saying you have done so, but some posters have been known to use VERY selective cut and pastes. If you provide a link then people can read the entire article if they wish.

Cheers

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08 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM (#3898048)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

Easy enough to trace it yourself Dave
R=The top bit came from Wiki - the bottom from dictionary.com
Surprisingly, not from Guido Fawkes of a neo fascist site - this time!
Jim Carroll

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08 Jan 18 - 09:40 AM (#3898063)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

I think your compassion and commitment to Tiara were superb

Whoopee. Hot damn. Now go do the same for a human being.

Or would you recommend just euthanizing the homeless, rather like stray animals?

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08 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM (#3898067)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Don't be such a goady prick Greg F.
I would have thought my posts on this thread indicate (to anyone with half a brain cell) that I am a compassionate person, and that goes for human beings, animals and wildlife.
Compassion isn't rationed out. One can be kind and help anyone/anything in need.

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08 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM (#3898068)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

I think (hope) that Greg has Bozo's streak of inhumanity towards the less well of rather than the fate of defenceless animals Sen - not the greatest humanitarian in the world as he has made obvious regularly
Behave yourself Greg !!!
Jim Carroll

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08 Jan 18 - 10:01 AM (#3898069)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash

Senoufou I rather think Greg was referring to "I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person..."

A statement that I too thought was odious.

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08 Jan 18 - 10:25 AM (#3898072)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Well it was my sentence he put at the top of his post. He was objecting to my praise of Bonzo's kindness to Tiara.
And one can object to anything on here, but why in such a sneering and goady tone?

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08 Jan 18 - 10:44 AM (#3898077)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

Thank, you, Raggy.

He was objecting to my praise of Bonzo's kindness to Tiara.

No, Sen, I was objecting to your tacit fulsome praise of Bozo's odious statement.

Greg has Bozo's streak of inhumanity towards the less well off

Hunh?? Where the hell do you get THAT from, Jim? I just don't think that humans are at least any less worthy of kindness than animals. Of course, there are those whose warm, fuzzy feelings gained from "saving" animals allows them to ignore human suffering and death.....

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08 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM (#3898096)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

As a relative newcomer here, I'm going to wade into these murky waters with trepidation, but here goes:

I hope Bonzo will correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt very much that the outlay for Tiara depleted any joint human-canine homeless fund, thereby reducing aid to people in dire need. I doubt that Bonzo's preference came as a surprise to anyone, and I feel it aids our understanding to have it out there explicitly.

Homeless people don't come from Planet Sainthood, any more than the rest of us do, and it would be dehumanizing to expect someone in great physical or mental pain and stress to slobber in gratitude over some casual, partial, and temporary alleviation of their suffering. So it's quite understandable that people whose help for others is linked to the expectation of gratitude would prefer to help a creature whose undying devotion can be acquired by placing a bowl of kibble on the floor.

That said, there is plenty of suffering in this world to go around, and anything anyone does to reduce it is worth what it merits, without comparisons. (I'm not crazy about nourishing obligatory carnivores, myself, but that's just me.) If someone's priorities are "odious," well, they are out there and characterize their owner perhaps more eloquently than any criticism can.

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08 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM (#3898103)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

"from the mid nineteenth century onwards, British mine-owners were using the plight of Irish refugees fleeing the effects of a mismanaged (possibly deliberately) by Britain famine to drive down the wages of indigenous workers
The result was starvation level conditions imposed on both the working Irish and the pittance paid to the English miners
The side effect was an inbuilt racism towards the Irish that is still apparent"

3 statements here without a shred of evidence to back it up:

1) A smear that Britain deliberately mismanaged famine relief to drive down the wages of British workers.
2)Starvation level conditions imposed on Irish workers and miners.
3)A side effect that their is an inbuilt racism towards the irish that is still apparent.
This is a very dangerous pack of lies you are guilty of spreading.
What on earth do you use as a source for your mischief making? The life and times of vlad the impaler?
I think you have the wrong forum for the shit you post!

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08 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM (#3898105)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash

Iains your points have been discussed, at length, on numerous threads. If you wish to know more there are a myriad of books I could recommend that might make you more aware of the situation in Ireland in the 19th century. I'm out at the moment but if you send me a PM I will respond with the titles.

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08 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM (#3898130)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"3 statements here without a shred of evidence to back it up:"#
Are you serious?
Two years ago there was an avalance of information that emerged from the famine and its aftermath - all these points were argued to death on this forum
The details of the Irish being being used as strikebreakers in order to push down indigenous wages and conditions was used beautifully in Elizabeth Gaskell's classic novel, 'North And South'
The use of the famine to 'solve the Irish Question' was revealed when Government representative in charge of feeding the victims, Sir Charles Trevelyan's letter describing the Famine as "god's punishment of the Irish fro their indolent nature - published in full in Tim Pat Coogan's 'The Famine Plot
Racism toward the Irish has been a fact since Punch Magazines racist cartoons depicting them as subhuman monsters - right through to racist comedians like Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson
One of the most vicious racist of all the writers of the time was children's author, Charles Kingsley (of The Water Babies fame)
A wonderful thumbnail history of anti Irish racism (with illustrated examples) is to be found in Liz Curtis's ' Nothing Bu The Same old Story (with glorious illustrations)
What planet do you occupy
Try this for size
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/irish-butt-of-english-racism-for-more-than-eight-centuries-1342976.html
Jim Carroll

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08 Jan 18 - 02:27 PM (#3898146)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Honestly, Iains, we're talking about the 19th Century, the age of Gobineau, Morton, Linnaeus, Agassiz, etc. etc., the flourishing of scientific racism, eugenics, and not coincidentally, of Euro-American imperialism. It seems to me absolutely fair, given the well-attested academic background, to begin with a default assumption of general, deeply held, racist ideology and assign the burden of proof to those who would dispute it in particular areas. As an American, I've been aware of my nation's racist and genocidal history since childhood, but frankly, the more I look into it, the worse it gets.

If you check out the Wikipedia article on Scientific Racism , you'll find an interesting illustration demonstrating the Irishman's kinship with the Negroid race, in contrast to the pure Teutonic features of the Englishman.

It's worse than you think.

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08 Jan 18 - 03:33 PM (#3898163)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

Thank you Senoufou for your very kind comment.

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08 Jan 18 - 04:10 PM (#3898173)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

Interesting you use novels to back up your assertions. I suggest you add Hans Christian Andersen's collected works to your list!

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08 Jan 18 - 04:52 PM (#3898180)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

"Interesting you use novels to back up your assertions. I suggest you add Hans Christian Andersen's collected works to your list!"

Gobineau, Morton, Linnaeus, and Agassiz weren't novelists, although they created the fictional explanation of racial differences called polygenism--that the races were descended from different, unequal, and unrelated origins.

Neither was "John Beddoe, who later became the President of the Anthropological Institute (1889-1891), [who] wrote in his Races of Britain (1862) that all men of genius were orthognathous (less prominent jaw bones) while the Irish and the Welsh were prognathous and that the Celt was closely related to Cromagnon man, who, in turn, was linked, according to Beddoe, to the 'Africanoid'."--Anthony Wohl, Racism and Anti-Irish Prejudice in Victorian England.

Disraeli, of course WAS a novelist, but he could have put his literary imagination to better use than to write

"[The Irish] hate our order, our civilization, our enterprising industry, our pure religion. This wild, reckless, indolent, uncertain and superstitious race have no sympathy with the English character. Their ideal of human felicity is an alternation of clannish broils and coarse idolatry. Their history describes an unbroken circle of bigotry and blood."
Wikipedia: Anti-Irish Sentiment

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08 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM (#3898185)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

Very dangerous to use wikipedia as a font of all knowledge. It can lead a person to believe it explains everything. IT DOES NOT!

I am not going to argue the causes and cure of the famine here. You will all believe what you want to believe. My take is that the crisis was woefully mismanaged but the fatalities were not a result of DELIBERATE government policy.
I have found nothing to support the idea that Irish labour was imported to drive down miners wages. What time period are we discussing? Elizabethan, Victorian, WW1,WW2, postwar. I suspect another figment of your imagination.

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08 Jan 18 - 05:55 PM (#3898200)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

"Very dangerous to use wikipedia as a font of all knowledge. It can lead a person to believe it explains everything. IT DOES NOT!"

Please, Iains, you're not going to claim that the 19th Century was NOT the age of scientific racism, or that the figures I mentioned were not among its leading theorists, or that Disraeli did not write what I quoted, are you? Really?

Beddoe, the chief English ideologue, comes from another source anyway.

I'd say that if there's prima facie evidence that the dominant ideology portrayed a class as sub-human, and it suffered horribly, then if you want to defend its treatment by a governing class that openly despised them, it's your turn to amass some evidence yourself.

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08 Jan 18 - 07:49 PM (#3898221)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

Well I send Jimmy Wales ten quid a year in gratitude for Wikipedia. The thing is, you really ought to read it as you should read even the best newspapers, with a critical eye and a sceptical brain, and anything dodgy can be cross-checked elsewhere anyway. If you want to look at sources that are full of faults and shortcomings, just look at the much-vaunted Encyclopaedia Britannica or Grove's Dictionary of Music. They're riddled. Interesting that the person above who is casting aspersions on wiki has a serial penchant for quoting from the Daily Mail and Guido Fawkes. As you yanks might say, go figure. Actually, it doesn't take much figuring at all.

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09 Jan 18 - 02:49 AM (#3898239)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

We are shortlisting for our next homeless dog fostering.

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09 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM (#3898248)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Interesting that the Britannica should come into this conversation. One of my "sources" for my claim that 19th Century racism was "worse than you think" is a phone conversation with my brother about Bunk by Kevin Young . Young argues that the hoax is the dialect of racist discourse--from Barnum's fraudulent exhibits to Samuel Morton's falsification of his cranial measurement data, to Breitbart's and Trump's contemporary disinformation campaigns.

En route, Young mentions a couple of scientific racist lectures given in Philadelphia by the revered Harvard biology professor, Louis Agassiz. My brother looked up Agassiz in our family Britannica ca. 1954, and found the lectures were actually mentioned, but nothing about their racist content. Nor does the 1954 Encyclopedia of Record even have an article about racism.

What has all this and these last half-dozen or so exchanges to do with homelessness? Quite a lot: Even now, in the US, the discussion of homelessness is polluted by xenophobic myths and memes about the unwashed alien hordes ripping off our welfare resources and undermining our labor markets--like Falstaff, not only homeless in themselves, but a cause of homelessness in others. This is only one aspect of the portrayal of homelessness as a disease, a plague, rather than a logical, foreseeable consequence of policy. And of course you have your violent cannibal rapists to worry about too.

This discourse does not just fall from the air. It is worth investigating where it originates, what is its history, and who benefits from it. Why do we have a ready-made vocabulary to hand for us to think and talk of the poorest of the poor as alien, dangerous, and barely human?

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09 Jan 18 - 03:54 AM (#3898249)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

So the twerp shaw insists that anything quoted by guido or the wail is false news. What a fool!

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09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM (#3898252)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

"So the twerp shaw insists that anything quoted by guido or the wail is false news. What a fool!"

I feel like I've wandered into a Monty Python sketch. "Argument clinic is two doors down. This is Abuse."

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09 Jan 18 - 04:42 AM (#3898258)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

At the risk of making poor old Greg foam at the mouth, I'm thrilled Bonzo, and hope you get your next 'candidate' very soon. Keep us posted!

Attitudes to that nebulous group termed The Homeless have certainly changed over the centuries. The more usual homeless were what we used to call 'tramps', who due to the laws against Vagrancy, had to tramp from one place of refuge to another to obtain temporary lodging. If they sat in the street they were 'moved on' or even arrested. I'm old enough to remember many of these Gentlemen of the Road (early fifties, just after the War) and they were often given food, a little money and old but serviceable overcoats etc by our parents.

We also had Gypsies in real horse-drawn painted caravans coming through our area, and these also were treated with kindness. I remember my mother (who was Irish) giving the women some children's clothes, ex-army blankets and food, and having a good old natter as well.

Nowadays, there seems to be a growing fury at these unfortunate folk by some unfeeling people. They're 'bloody immigrants', 'wasters', 'druggies' etc and 'a drain on our resources'. I've heard they get spat on and kicked. Arguments spring up as to how and why they have no home.
And also people see helping them as an 'either or', when there are so many worthy causes to try and support.
I keep banging on about compassion and kindness on here (and elsewhere)
If one keeps alight in one's heart a spirit of love for one's fellow man and a sensitivity to suffering, one will try to do what one can, and not question the eligibility on the part of the recipients.
Some may specialise in helping animals, the Third World, the old, those in prison. No one group has priority over another, and no-one can be doing everything for everyone.

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09 Jan 18 - 05:08 AM (#3898265)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

Ignore him when he's in that mode, Jackaroodave. Responding to stuff like that just drags the place down even more.

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09 Jan 18 - 05:08 AM (#3898266)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

This seems to have degenerate int personal abuse and open racism
Bye-bye thread
Jim Carroll

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09 Jan 18 - 05:23 AM (#3898267)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash

"I am not going to argue the causes and cure of the famine here"

I have offered to send you titles of books which could enlighten you as to some suggested causes of the famine and related issues.

I am not at all surprised to find you have not accepted that offer.

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09 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM (#3898282)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

"I keep banging on about compassion and kindness on here (and elsewhere)
If one keeps alight in one's heart a spirit of love for one's fellow man and a sensitivity to suffering, one will try to do what one can, and not question the eligibility on the part of the recipients.
Some may specialise in helping animals, the Third World, the old, those in prison. No one group has priority over another, and no-one can be doing everything for everyone."

Senoufou, thank you for expressing these ideals I admire and aspire to. The drum I keep banging in this thread is that homelessness, inter alia, is a logical result of a particular social structure and can be remedied by changing it. And that the "growing fury" helps, and is intended to help, preserve that pernicious social structure.

I think that the idea of a fixed-volume pool of social service resources is another myth that serves the same purpose. Hence I have no problem with Bonzo's preferences: I think it's a dangerous fallacy to hold that a pound given here comes out of the pocket of a more deserving recipient over there.

I don't know how many times I've heard or read something like, "We have no business providing for immigrants/sending aid to Africa/giving free medical care to addicts--until we take care of our own needy/veterans/abandoned dogs, etc." The handy accessibility of this trope as a reason to do nothing should itself be grounds for skepticism.

Compared to most of the world, the per capita incomes in the US and UK are enormous. (Although the actuall figures are misleading, as they are means of highly skewed distributions.) Large enough in the US, anyway, that a conservative congress could pass a tax bill throwing away one trillion dollars in revenues and not miss it.

It's true that "no-one can be doing everything for everyone," but almost everyone together could do a great deal for almost everyone.

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09 Jan 18 - 07:44 AM (#3898309)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Thank you Jackaroodave.
You're quite right in saying that in the West, we have a lot of resources to hand. I've travelled a great deal around West Africa and seen some terrible things due to poverty, disease, civil war etc. (Although it has to be said, corruption in most African states is absolutely rife, and if their greedy politicians took their sticky hands out of the pot, there'd be more or less enough to go round.)

It's true also that no-one can give endlessly to a myriad causes. We have fairly limited financial resources and my husband's enormous family of over 60 people in the compound alone, not to mention his ancestral village of Nafamadougou, are always getting into difficulties. His sister has now contracted TB and we're helping with treatment for her. It's a great pleasure to me to be able to make a small difference to their lives. But this doesn't leave vast amounts for needy people and animals here in UK.

I think the main thing is 'sharing'. Whatever one has, one can share a bit with others. It sounds so cheesy I know, but it's true for me.

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09 Jan 18 - 10:35 AM (#3898352)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

At the risk of making poor old Greg foam at the mouth

Sorry, no foaming - but disappointment, disgust, etc. Per your equating animals and humans, once again:

No one group has priority over another

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09 Jan 18 - 12:02 PM (#3898376)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Well I'm glad you're not foaming Greg. But to be fair, we don't really know what Bonzo does in his day-to-day life do we? He might be a very kind neighbour, a stalwart friend, someone people can turn to in a crisis. He may (as my late father did) do a bit of gardening for the elderly, or take non-drivers to the supermarket.
Goodness doesn't just consist of handing money over.

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09 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM (#3898408)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

Raggytash. I live very close to the Abbeystrery Famine burial pits just outside Skibbereen. I have read many different sources on the famine and I am well aware of varied interpretations of the true state of affairs. I stick by my original statement. Many Irish histories paint a very black picture (partly for historical/political reasons), conversely the British often attempt to play down the true severity of the situation.
Somewhere within lies the truth. In that period the mores of society were very, very different. Tramps were shown out of the parish within 24 hours and the paupers ended up in the extremely harsh regime of the workhouse. The situation is exemplified by the hym "all things bright and beautiful":
The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them high and lowly, And ordered their estate.

Passing an accurate judgement using the mores of today is I would say, almost impossible.


Supposedly we have moved on from such a harsh attitude to the most vulnerable.
But Biafra, Darfur, The Yemen still are allowed to occur. Politics trumps humanity it would seem. We have not really changed- we just keep the bad news buried in the small print deep inside the daily rags and the TV news is always carefully massaged. It becomes increasingly difficult to isolate the facts from propaganda.Does embedding reporters give access to the real story or carefully manage to keep them away from those actions best hid from publicity?t No one denies the Irish famine was a tragedy or that more could have been done and should have been done. But in our days of enlightenment today how many have been massacred in the middle east over the last quarter century.
How many killed by war, terrorism or vital medicines with held by Internationally applied sanctions?

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09 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM (#3898423)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

we don't really know what Bonzo does in his day-to-day life do we? He might be a very kind neighbour........etc.

Based on what he's posted for a very long time- which is all we DO and CAN know of him - he might be a complete asshole, and the betting is that way.

Then too, it was not Bozo who stated that humans don't take priority over animals - that was yourself.

Also, who - other than yourself - suggested "just handing money over"? Certainly not me.

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09 Jan 18 - 04:56 PM (#3898427)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

"No one denies the Irish famine was a tragedy or that more could have been done and should have been done."

Only two things wrong with that sentence. First, the word "famine." Oh, how that little word conveys the sense of of calamitous and unavoidable hunger brought on by nature. But the Irish "famine" was no such thing. Read on. Second, the word "tragedy." Again, the sense of a cruel and unavoidable act of God. Again, no such thing. There was abundant food in Ireland all the way through that "famine." From wiki.


Throughout the entire period of the Famine, Ireland was exporting enormous quantities of food. In the magazine History Ireland (1997, issue 5, pp. 32-36), Christine Kinealy, a Great Hunger scholar, lecturer, and Drew University professor, relates her findings: Almost 4,000 vessels carried food from Ireland to the ports of Bristol, Glasgow, Liverpool, and London during 1847, when 400,000 Irish men, women, and children died of starvation and related diseases. She also writes that Irish exports of calves, livestock (except pigs), bacon, and ham actually increased during the Famine. This food was shipped under British military guard from the most famine-stricken parts of Ireland; Ballina, Ballyshannon, Bantry, Dingle, Killala, Kilrush, Limerick, Sligo, Tralee, and Westport. A wide variety of commodities left Ireland during 1847, including peas, beans, onions, rabbits, salmon, oysters, herring, lard, honey, tongues, animal skins, rags, shoes, soap, glue, and seed. The most shocking export figures concern butter. Butter was shipped in firkins, each one holding 9 imperial gallons; 41 litres. In the first nine months of 1847, 56,557 firkins (509,010 imperial gallons; 2,314,000 litres) were exported from Ireland to Bristol, and 34,852 firkins (313,670 imperial gallons; 1,426,000 litres) were shipped to Liverpool, which correlates with 822,681 imperial gallons (3,739,980 litres) of butter exported to England from Ireland during nine months of the worst year of the Famine.The problem in Ireland was not lack of food, which was plentiful, but the price of it, which was beyond the reach of the poor.

The historian Cecil Woodham-Smith wrote in The Great Hunger: Ireland 1845-1849 that no issue has provoked so much anger and embittered relations between England and Ireland "as the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation." John Ranelagh writes that Ireland remained a net exporter of food throughout most of the five-year famine.

Calling it a tragedy, rather than an inhuman outrage, misrepresents the situation entirely.

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09 Jan 18 - 05:28 PM (#3898431)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

Building our homeless shelter has been an exciting adventure. I live in Placer County, California, which has a population of 375,000. The county spans from the City of Roseville, a suburb of Sacramento; to the shores of Lake Tahoe - with lots of forested mountains in between. The nearest town to me is the county seat, Auburn, with a population of about 20,000.

Back in about 2004, Placer County authorities got caught transporting local homeless people to volunteer facilities in the neighboring county of Sacramento, and a court order was issued to stop that practice. Soon after, churches in Placer County established the Gathering Inn, which provided floor space for homeless people to sleep - in a different church every night. The Gathering Inn is centered in Roseville. Homeless people in Auburn, 16 miles away, had to board a bus at 3 PM every day to get to the Gathering Inn processing center. The 250-some homeless people in Auburn didn't make use of the Gathering Inn very much, because it was so much easier to camp in open spaces around Auburn. But those open spaces eventually closed up, and that left a good number of homeless people wandering the neighborhoods of Auburn. Auburn is a very conservative community in a very conservative county, and people started to demand stricter enforcement and stricter laws to bring the homeless population under control.

The next county north of us is Nevada County, which is a liberal enclave in usually-conservative Northern California. And Nevada County had folksinger U.Utah Phillips. Utah and his wife and friends founded Hospitality House in 2005, and it has become an exemplary homeless shelter that now houses 54 people. And my stingy county had a round-robin shelter that housed 40-60 people on the floors of church halls. And many citizens were up in arms, insisting that our homeless people came from elsewhere and should be shipped out of town. They objected to establishment of a shelter, because a shelter might serve as a "magnet" to bring in more homeless people.

Back in 2011, I joined with three women to study the county jail in Auburn, to try to find a way to end the jail's practice of releasing inmates at night when their time was served - releasing them with no resources, no transportation, and no place to go. We soon learned that many of the jail inmates were homeless people with mental health problems or addictions, so we joined forces with other people and established the Auburn Area Homeless Forum. We began a campaign of letters to the editor and comments in social media, and we sent representatives to every public meeting that had anything to do with homelessness. After the Homeless Forum got its start, a local Catholic priest started a group called Right Hand Auburn. Most of the Right Hand Auburn people are wealthy and conservative, while we in the Homeless Forum are mostly unreconstructed hippies. Right Hand Auburn launched a plan to open a homeless shelter in the recently-vacated minimum security section of the County Jail, two brick buildings that had been army barracks during World War II. The Homeless Forum and other organizations joined forces with Right Hand Auburn, and we were able to open a shelter with 47 beds in June, 2015 - but the county allowed us to operate only from 5 PM to 7 AM. In less than a year, we were allowed to operate a 24-hr shelter for 50 people, and "emergency" space on the floor for another 50 people at night. Now the shelter operates 24/7 and serves 100 residents. It provides mental health and addiction treatment, job training, housing referral, and classes that teach residents how to be good rental tenants.

The shelter was originally supported by donations with a contribution from the county. Soon after the shelter opened, the county started paying for everything but meals - meals are provided by churches and other volunteer organizations.

But the shelter isn't everything. Our community organizing efforts had an amazing effect on the county government. We have two strong supporters on the 5-member County Board of Supervisors, and we're usually able to coax a third or fourth vote on matters that concern us*. And we found that there were talented employees in county government who were just waiting for permission from the public to step forward and do good things for those in need in the community. The Sheriff joined with the Probation Department and County Mental Health to form a homeless task force that serves and patrols the homeless community. The Probation Department started a very successful job training program for jail releasees. The Sisters of Mercy built a beautiful apartment complex for formerly homeless senior citizens, and the county launched a number of efforts to build housing for the poor.

I'm now the outgoing president of an organization called Placer People of Faith Together. We do community organizing on the issues of incarceration, homelessness, and immigration. We try to attend every public meeting that has anything to do with these issues, and we speak out in public meetings and in local news media. We insist on a non-adversarial approach, and that has served us well. In the process, we have made friends and built ourselves a good reputation in the community and an excellent relationship with local government.

And it has been fun. And the taxpayers are paying most of the expenses.

-Joe-

*I'm friends with the one county supervisor who consistently votes against us, and he has often done very generous things that have helped us out in many ways.

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09 Jan 18 - 05:43 PM (#3898435)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

One more thing about homelessness and mental health - in a survey taken in my community, 37% of the homeless people said that they had mental health problems. I'm sure this number is different in other countries and other communities, but the number seems right for my community. The majority of homeless people here are "chronically homeless" - homeless for five years or more. And the majority of our homeless went to high school in our county, which refutes the claim by some that our homeless are outsiders who don't belong here.

I also began to hear the use of drugs and alcohol referred to as "self-medication," a term that makes a lot of sense to me. Homeless people often use drugs to dull the pain and misery of a life lived with inadequate food, shelter, sleep, medical care, and safety. Homeless people use the cheapest drugs they can find, because they can't afford anything more. It's a misconception that homeless people would be just fine if they didn't spend all their money on drugs and alcohol - homelessness is a complex and hopeless problem, any way you look at it. But it's amazing how people change after a few days in our shelter. Adequate sleep and nutrition works wonders.

-Joe-

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09 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM (#3898441)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: bobad

I tip my hat to you Joe for your activism on behalf of the homeless - it's one thing to post platitudes on the internet but another to actually get involved in the community and work on solutions - kudos.

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09 Jan 18 - 07:58 PM (#3898444)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

Yeah, Boo - but what's he done for dogs lately??

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09 Jan 18 - 08:25 PM (#3898446)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: bobad

Oh, I'm sure he'd help you out if you were in need Greg.

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09 Jan 18 - 09:27 PM (#3898454)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

I really, really like dogs - but our county just spent $23.6 million on a new animal shelter, which will house 68 dogs, 92 cats. If we could get that kind of money to house homeless people, we'd really be able to accomplish something. We're lucky if we can squeeze $1 million a year from the county to house 160 people in two shelters. It seemed like a miracle when we finally got county funding for our homeless shelter, instead of having to depend completely on donations. And yet we're still funding all meals at the shelters by donations.
Tax money feeds the dogs and cats.

-Joe-

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09 Jan 18 - 09:35 PM (#3898455)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.

our county just spent $23.6 million on a new animal shelter, which will house 68 dogs, 92 cats....we're still funding all meals at the [homeless] shelters by donations. Tax money feeds the dogs and cats.


Surely Senoufou & Bonzo will be pleased- all's right with the world.

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10 Jan 18 - 01:49 AM (#3898466)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Thompson

Best way to clear the homeless off the street is to build homes.

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10 Jan 18 - 02:54 AM (#3898468)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

Why not close a few universities where far too many time wasting youngsters sloth away 3 years, then use the dormitories to house the homeless, but they should be required to do something useful to earn their keep, like rescuing and looking after homeless dogs.

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10 Jan 18 - 04:19 AM (#3898473)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

Quite a few of the homeless we see in Norwich have lovely dogs with them. I sometimes hand over some dog food as well as a pound or two. One chap told me a dog helps to protect him from attacks during the night.

We have several small charities here for rescuing dogs and cats (eg F.A.I.T.H.). In supermarkets they have a box where one can put cat and dog food, and a stall on Norwich market where they sell bric-a-brac to raise money.

My husband finds it rather droll, how pets here in UK are pampered, when on the streets of Adjame (district of Abidjan) one sees terribly emaciated children. He couldn't believe at first that I gave our Siamese roast chicken. Over there, chicken is eaten very very rarely, and only at Tabaski. (one scrawny chicken among ten or so people)

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10 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM (#3898485)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

Bonzo3legs. Keeping kids in college makes them debt slaves for life and massages unemployment figures downwards. It's a win win situation for the PTB.

Joe. The example you set to the rest of us is outstanding, long may your good works continue!

The fact that more can be spent housing cats and dogs than on people speaks volumes about the society we live in.

In reality we exist on a knife edge and very little is required to tip us over the edge. What separates us from the homeless is the false perception that we could not sink to that level.
What savings does the average person have?
What percentage are behind on payments for housing , cars etc.
How vulnerable are we to upsets in just in time deliveries, especially of food?
Have lessons been learnt and actioned since Katrina?
Through no fault of our own, a little shock to the system could plunge many more of us onto the streets.

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10 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM (#3898489)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"In reality we exist on a knife edge and very little is required to tip us over the edge. What separates us from the homeless is the false perception that we could not sink to that level."
An excellent description of a failing political system in need of replecement
Pity Edward Gibbon isn't around any more to write its history
Jim Carroll

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10 Jan 18 - 05:51 AM (#3898491)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM
"In reality we exist on a knife edge and very little is required to tip us over the edge. What separates us from the homeless is the false perception that we could not sink to that level."
An excellent description of a failing political system in need of replacement

But not to replace just for the sake of replacing it.
Any replacement system must have at least a reasonable chance of improving the situation before replacement becomes a worthwhile goal.

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10 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM (#3898493)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

I have no time whatsoever for dogs (more their legions of irresponsible owners, actually), but we are pet-owning democracies and I fully accept the need to have humane facilities for pets that come upon unfortunate times. A discussion which constantly complains about comparative amounts spent on dogs/ cats/students/the homeless is puerile. The people posting in these threads all live in countries that can well afford to look after all the dogs, cats, students and the homeless. It's just that we put our fiscal priorities elsewhere. Tax cuts for the upper and middle classes, tax breaks for massive corporations, indulgent treatment for parasites who hide their money offshore, an unregulated and cruel private rental sector, you name it. In this country, we even have a ridiculous scheme that gives the biggest and richest landowners subsidies of half a million or more a year, when what we should be doing is taxing the arses off them. On top of that, and in spite of the lesson of the last ten years, we have irresponsible and almost unregulated financial institutions that allow people to get to that brink by going heavily in debt. Don't let the buggers divide and rule by squabbling about homeless dogs and homeless people. Always look at the bigger picture.

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10 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM (#3898511)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

" A discussion which constantly complains about comparative amounts spent on dogs/ cats/students/the homeless is puerile."

I wonder how many homeless people would regard the above as puerile?
To ponder the merits of placing annimal housing over and above that of humans? The fact that such a discussion exists displays magnificently man's inhumanity to man.
Does that come under the heading of puerile? I rather think not!
Your rant would appear to make the case that life is not fair. At least you understand something!

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10 Jan 18 - 08:03 AM (#3898514)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash

You really do seem to have a problem with comprehension Iains, either that or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Steve is not saying that discussing the homeless and the amount spent is on them puerile, he is saying that discussing the COMPARATIVE AMOUNTS spent on the homeless and stray dogs is puerile.

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10 Jan 18 - 08:21 AM (#3898515)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Dave the Gnome

Dare I say it?

Different language at least!

I am getting more and more convinced that it is not just the UK and US that are divided by a common tongue. Different groups of posters on here have the same issue.

DtG

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10 Jan 18 - 09:37 AM (#3898530)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

Iains is constantly and obsessively looking for trouble. We should ignore him.

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10 Jan 18 - 03:04 PM (#3898617)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Joe Offer

I've often heard complaints about homeless people wasting money by keeping dogs as pets. The complainers think that homeless people shouldn't be wasting their money on dog food and other pet expenses.

A lot of homeless people have dogs, and the much-maligned pit bull terrier is the dog of choice for homeless people. Pit bulls can be trained to be vicious, but they are very loyal and lovable dogs that can be terrific companions. We have kennels in the outdoor courtyard at the homeless shelter where residents can keep their pets and hang out with them.

When we were doing our initial study of the county jail, we interviewed a hundred homeless people and asked them about the times they had been in jail. One young man I interviewed had a pit bull, and he said he hadn't been in jail for over a year, since he got "his baby." He made sure to stay on good behavior and not get arrested, because he didn't want to be separated from his dog. This man's relationship with his pet seemed to be the only really good thing in his life. That conversation sure woke me up to the importance of pets in the lives of homeless people.

Made me appreciate my own dog more, too.

-Joe-

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10 Jan 18 - 03:57 PM (#3898638)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains

Sometimes a pet is the only loyal, protective friend that people have. They can also have a significant calming effect on certain people. Are homeless people not entitled to the same rights as the rest of us?

The link below is one of a number of articles all roughly in agreement:

http://time.com/4728315/science-says-pet-good-for-mental-health/

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10 Jan 18 - 04:53 PM (#3898647)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

You hear intolerant things all the time, Joe, such as that homeless people shouldn't have dogs, people on benefits shouldn't have flatscreen TVs, why are people on the breadline buying their kids X-Boxes, how come you can afford an iPhone when you're unemployed, look at that kid with his Nike trainers when his mum's down the food bank most days...

I bloody hate it. What's wrong with us?

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10 Jan 18 - 04:56 PM (#3898649)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs

There is a great deal of envy in the UK.

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10 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM (#3898650)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

"I've often heard complaints about homeless people wasting money by keeping dogs as pets."

OFTEN?!

For ****'s sake--what is WRONG with people?

As a vegan, I don't keep pets myself, unless you count the ants in the compost heap, but how can anyone begrudge someone who has nothing a few cans of dog food?

It reminds me of Nathan's rebuke to David about Uriah the Hittite and Bathsheba.

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10 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM (#3898651)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

Steve, I owe you a coke.

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10 Jan 18 - 05:11 PM (#3898653)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

There are vegan brands of beer, you know!

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10 Jan 18 - 05:16 PM (#3898655)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

People are always getting the hump about what other people have, and whether they ought to have it or not. There's an undertone of 'deserving' and much tutting if visibly 'poor' folk have anything nice.
It makes me fume. If a sad, homeless, hungry and dirty chap loves his dog and it gives him comfort, it may be the only good thing in his miserable life, as Joe says above.
It's so cruel and unfeeling to grudge him some pleasure in the love of a loyal pet.
I often wonder if compassion and fellow-feeling have gone out of fashion.
Are people made of stone nowadays?

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10 Jan 18 - 05:18 PM (#3898656)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: bobad

If meat eaters acted like vegans

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10 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM (#3898658)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

Musha, God Help Her
Pierce Turner (as sung by Christy)

Ah Sure, musha, God help her,
She's in an awful state,
She's got that husband fellow's run away,
A teenage daughter in the family way,
And she can't pay her bills to nobody.

Poor Mrs. Donoghue,
Out there by Ballynew,
She used to be a King from Davitt Street,
All of them were spotless in their parents' home,
Till she got married to that animal.

According to all accounts,
They never go to Mass,
He's with that young one out in Ballyhack,
She don't have a stitch across her back,
But she can well afford to drink.

I really don't know,
What's to become of them
All the street is up in arms at them,
They make more noise than an army,
When she starts throwing all the cups at him.

I really wouldn't mind,
If they were friendly,
But they don't say hello to nobody,
You'd really think that they were somebody,
It makes me laugh you know,
At the back of it all.

Ah sure musha, God help her,
She's in an awful state,
She's got that husband fellow's run away,
A teenage daughter in the family way,
And she don't pay her bills to nobody.

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https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=53629

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10 Jan 18 - 05:43 PM (#3898659)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave

"If meat eaters acted like vegans"

Har. Har.

I've never witnessed a vegan act like that. I have, however, often been grilled (pardon me) about my veganism by carnivores who felt implicitly criticized. This happens a lot less than it used to. More and more I hear things like, "You know, I don't eat red meat, myself. . . or at least not very often."

I saw an actually pretty funny one on a BS thread a while back, though:

"Why did the vegan cross the road?"
. . . . .
"To tell someone he was a vegan."

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10 Jan 18 - 05:53 PM (#3898660)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw

Ha ha! That bloke's videos are magnificent. My favourite is the one about how to become gluten-intolerant. Genius!

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11 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM (#3898704)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"There is a great deal of envy in the UK."
There is a great deal of and a great deal of disinterest in, even contempt for the poor poverty to give rise to that envy
Windsor is probably the most recent example, but your own posings are regular reminders o both.
"Envy" has become a substitute for a "desire for natural justice" in the vocabularry of some
GROWING GAP
Jim Caarroll

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11 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM (#3898705)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Thompson

Another reason homeless people have dogs is that a dog snuggled up to you in your sleeping bag in your blow-up tent will stop you freezing to death if you're sleeping out.

This is the world we've made.

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11 Jan 18 - 05:04 AM (#3898731)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Mr Red

In supermarkets they have a box where one can put cat and dog food,

Our local Painsbury's have two. The Cat one, and the Foodbank one. Supported in equal measure, or maybe the Cats have the edge. To bring it back to that comparison.

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11 Jan 18 - 05:44 AM (#3898743)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash

Good link Bobad !

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11 Jan 18 - 08:11 AM (#3898797)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

It's just been claimed by a group of hospital doctors in the UK that old people are dying on trolleys for the want of beds and medical attention
Anybody feel "envious" about that?
Jim Carroll

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11 Jan 18 - 08:25 AM (#3898800)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

My poor young brother-in-law Suleyman lay on the floor of a filthy hospital 'foyer' in Abidjan for three days, attended by his mother, who begged for help for him, while sleeping at his side day and night. None of the passing medics would pay any attention unless money was offered. She had none, and on the third afternoon he died in agony of (we think) cerebral malaria, still lying on the floor. He was fifteen. (This was before I met my husband)
I reckon many Third World folk would envy whatever sadly inefficient health care we have here. It's all relative isn't it?

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11 Jan 18 - 12:35 PM (#3898883)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll

"My poor young brother-in-law Suleyman lay on the floor of a filthy hospital 'foyer' in Abidjan for three days"
Appallingly inhuman, but hardly comparable to the the situan in the wealth west Sen
Sam Larner put tit in a nutshell when he recited the local rhyme:

If health were a thing that money could buy
The rich would live and the poor would die.

Jim Carroll

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11 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM (#3898893)
Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou

No Jim, it isn't comparable, and that's the point I was making.
One can be jealous of those above one, but all the time, those below are very jealous of us.
I have great sympathy for the homeless in UK, but it's very rare (thank God!) for anyone to actually starve to death on the street. I've seen skeletally thin people, including tiny twin boys, in Dakar, Senegal patently at their last gasp. My husband says a starved person's corpse can lie decomposing for days on the street in Ivory Coast, until the Firemen (!) scrape it up and trundle it away.
All this is horrific and deplorable. But (referring to the thread title) none of it can possibly be a Personal Choice, neither here nor in the Third World.

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