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20 Dec 99 - 03:55 PM (#152061) Subject: Ulster Protestant music From: JTT I've had no answers to this under a less obvious heading, so am reposting - sorry if this irritates anyone. I've just been listening to an old EP of songs sung by Richard Hayward and the Loyal Brethren - old Orange songs, recorded I'd say in the 1960s. The name of the publisher was Beltona Records in London, and the name of the record was Orange and Blue. Does anyone know where I can get more of the same? I also heard, some years ago, really beautiful singing by Ulster Protestant choirs of four or five men singing together in a kind of barbershop quintet effect - singing hymns like "Jesus is the Lighthouse". I've never been able to track down any of these records - apparently they sold, or sell, through Ian Paisley's churches, though where I heard them was in Big Tom's recording studio. |
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20 Dec 99 - 05:56 PM (#152113) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Liam's Brother I am just sitting here listening for the first time to a 10" LP loaned to me by my old pal, Mike Risinger. It's by Richard Hayward and called From The Irish Roads - Vol. 2. When you say Ulster Protestant Music you bite off a big chew. There are a lot of songs in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, for example, that were made originally by Protestants that are neither religious nor political in nature... for example, songs about life situations. SH stayed fairly clear of the contoversial (and his collection is the greatest not only of Ulster songs but of all Irish songs). Now, you may know that the rebellion of the United Irishmen in 1798 was, largely, a rebellion of (mostly) Ulster Presbyterians. A really fine recording of many of those songs was made for the bicentennial by Frank Harte (not an Ulster Protestant)... 1798: The First Year of Liberty, Hummingbird HBCD0014. I'm certainly no expert but there are some at the Mudcat. Is it specifically religious and Orange songs that you want?
All the best, |
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20 Dec 99 - 10:54 PM (#152243) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: alison There is an Ulster song book on line... I'll try to find the link..... but I don't think it gives you info on recordings, just lyrics. slainte alison |
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20 Dec 99 - 11:01 PM (#152252) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: alison this is John Moulden's Ulster songs site.... not specifially Protestant songs.. but he has links to artsts and recordings..... slainte alison |
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20 Dec 99 - 11:01 PM (#152253) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: katlaughing Alison, I think this is the one, at least it is the one I learned about a long while ago, here, and I think it was from you.:-) Welcome to the Mudcat, JTT. It's nice that you posted with sensitivity. Thank you. katlaughing |
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20 Dec 99 - 11:31 PM (#152273) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: alison that's the same link as I put in Kat... the orange songs one.... slainte alison |
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20 Dec 99 - 11:38 PM (#152278) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: katlaughing Man, do great minds work in sync or what, Alison? Look at the times of our postings of the link!**BG** kat |
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21 Dec 99 - 12:44 AM (#152305) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Conrad Bladey cbladey@mail.bcpl.net Yes indeed! Good to see that folks know of the Orange Songbook.... here is the link also available via the songbook for sources- http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/ooooo.html#mus I highly recommend Roger Bradley. I have dealt with him for many years now. He also has the two most comprehensive books of songs- on his book pages- see ulster society. I think it is unfortunate that it is not easier to find recordings of the other culture of the Isle of Ireland. Perhaps the best thing you can do to help make the music more accessible is to give Roger's name and information to your local recording supplier. I hope the orange song book helps. Many of the songs exist in the DT as I put them there a few years now ago....more to come as time permits. I hope to type in some more this summer. Conrad |
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21 Dec 99 - 07:38 AM (#152356) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: John Moulden Since this thread began by mentioning Richard Hayward. it's worth saying that his singing of songs, and his interest in them represented a much broader tradition than is now thought of as Ulster "protestant" music. The sectarian end of that tradition is not all that there is (as Liam's brother, Dan, has pointed out) I wrote a brief article in the Befast Telegraph which is available at http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/today/aug20/Features/bop.ncml It points out the broad range of identifiably "catholic" and "protestant" songs that exists. It is neither definitive or complete. |
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21 Dec 99 - 08:29 AM (#152363) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: InOBU THere is a record called the SInging Men of Ulster, (Innisfree - Green Linnet S1F1005) has some Liam Andrews, and is likely out of print, but e-mail Wendy Newton at Green Linnit and ask, who knows, maybe she can make you a tape or something. They must have a web site at this point. Anyone know a URL for one? Much better to get you music from her than Ian P. All the best Larry |
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21 Dec 99 - 02:47 PM (#152519) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: McGrath of Harlow Ulster of course is wider than Northern Ireland, and "Orange songs" are only one of the traditions of Ulster or of Northern Irealnd.
But what is sometimes forgotten is that "Orange songs" don't just come from Ulster. It's just the nonsense of partition which gets in the way of recognising that the Orange tradition has been an all-Ireland tradition as well.
There's a good song called "The Orange Maid of Sligo" that is list in the Digital Tradition (though for some when you click on it, it won't come out into view), and there's "The Orange Lily-o", which is in no way a Belfast song so far as I'm aware:
"Oh did you go to see the show
Then heigh-o the Lily,O,
The elated muse, to hear the news
Then heigho the lily-o And of course the "Ould Orange Flute" takes place both in Ulster and in Connacht. |
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21 Dec 99 - 02:56 PM (#152525) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: John Moulden If "Singing Men of Ulster" is still available it's worth getting, though Liam Andrews - despite his singing "The Bold Orange Heroes of Comber" - was not a protestant. There are performances of songs by Packie Byrne, Kitty Gallagher, Robert Cinnamond, Johnny Doherty (yes, that one) Sarah Makem, Paddy Tunney, a marvel called Frank Donnelly and Colm and Cathal O'Boyle. Recorded in the period 56-62 by Diane Hamilton and Sean O Boyle. If Green Linnet has none, Ulstersongs had to buy ten some while back, in order to get any and there are about three left. The price rises as soon as they become relics of a previous millennium. (Like myself) |
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21 Dec 99 - 03:15 PM (#152533) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Seamus Kennedy JTT: if you mean songs of a Unionist nature, as opposed to a Nationalist nature, I have a few old recordings (probably out of print) I'd be glad to dub and send you. Songs like the Green Grassy Slopes, The Sash, Derry's Walls, The Boyne Water, Sprigs of Kilrea, etc. It was recorded by miscellaneous bands and performers. Ulster Music and Ulster Records is the name on the label. Perhaps there's a website. You might also want to check with Outlet Records in Belfast which I do know has a website, and has a wide selection of Unionist recordings. I also believe that this is a side of Northern culture and heritage which has been neglected. |
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21 Dec 99 - 03:54 PM (#152546) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Herge I recentally heard a brilliant tune played at a session by a fiddler and asked what it was - the tune was a called 'money in every pocket' and is a tune traditionaly a marching tune played on fife with lambeg. Any one heard it. Herge |
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22 Dec 99 - 09:02 AM (#152854) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: InOBU Hi John Moulden: Thanks for the informaiton about Liam Andrews. I had always wondered if he was one of the Andrewses related to the Andrews who desgned the Titanic, Well, I guess he was not! Brilliant singer, and such a great song, that I find myself singing snatches of it, to the wonderment of my fellow republicans! But, as another said, it is an overlooked aspect of our shared traditions, and the more we share those traditions, with truth comes reconcilliation, especially if reconcilliation now serves Britains political ends. So, in hopes of the start of a long new day... So here s a loyal toast may all the, ... well, I just cant sing it all yet..., maybe tommorow well all sing it together and you can sing A Nation Once Again with us. I say, from the heart, in the spirit of unity, I hope so. Peace, Justice and friendship Larry |
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22 Dec 99 - 10:15 AM (#152874) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: GeorgeH InOBU, John and others: given our much rehearsed different perspectives, I suggest we move out of the Irish traditions for a moment for a chorus of "May the New Year bring us freedom, peacefully!" Regards G. |
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22 Dec 99 - 11:24 AM (#152914) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: katlaughing For those asking, here's a link to Green Linnet's site. And, if you want to type it in or I goofed up, it is: http://www.grnlinnet.com/ katlaughing |
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22 Dec 99 - 02:58 PM (#152993) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: McGrath of Harlow One incident that has always given me hope happened right at the beginning of the recent troubles (the ones that started in 1969), just as things were starting to boil up.
There was an Orange parade due to take place in a place in Donegal, where there was an Orange lodge in existence, even though it's in the Republic.
Anyway there were a few rumours going round about trouble. Then the local IRA got in touch with the press, and issued a warning that anyone who tried to interfere with the Orange parade would be in big trouble, and it went ahead.
The reason I find it hopeful is that it is a reminder that, once the violence has died away, the ideology of a republican movement founded by Wolfe Tone, an atheist protestant, has to be non-sectarian.
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22 Dec 99 - 06:43 PM (#153072) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: InOBU McGrath of Harlow, and GeorgeH I endorce both your sentiments, with a short historical correction. The present Republican movements idiology is more based in the writings of James Connolly than Theabald Wolf Tone. Pat of this is that there is not a political ideology of the IRA, though there is of Sinn Fien. There is a strong eliment of anarchism in Repulican tradition, as Connelly was an IWW organiser... WHoops! THere is the door bell, my old pal Noel Hennely - I have to finsh this latter, All the best seasons greatings to all Larry |
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24 Dec 99 - 03:52 PM (#153883) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: JTT Thanks very much to all who have posted helpful messages, and yes, I'd very much like the recording that Seamus offered: email me at jt.thompson%indigo.ie, replacing the percentage sign with the @ sign, of course, and we'll get in contact; perhaps I could offer a swap, if that would be acceptable. |
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26 Dec 99 - 06:05 AM (#154255) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Jonathan If it is Orange songs you're after, there is a stall at the Barras, Glasgow's flea market that sells recordings; in the interests of neutrality it also carries Fenian songs and survives unmolested by either side! If you want 'em, I'll get 'em! J. |
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26 Dec 99 - 12:26 PM (#154295) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Pete Peterson Connolly was an IWW organizer?? I would love to learn more about that! I hope you are not letting your enthusiasm , InOBU, run away with you. (Actually, it fits, and I am learning through friends that there was much more to the IWW than the songs of Joe Hill) Sorry for the thread creep! Pete Peterson |
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26 Dec 99 - 01:34 PM (#154306) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: InOBU Sure thing, Pete: Around 1910 James Conolly lived in New York City, I believe 7th street, and sold papers in front of Cooper Union. One of the oldest members of the New York Local, back in the early 1980s remembers hearing the speaches at the Paterson Silk Strike, as a child wob, and I am fairly sure one was Connolly. He learned Italian as an IWW organiser in New York, and in fact, there is and was much more to the One Big Union than a couple of good songs. The Irish Transport Workers Union, which Connolly organised was an IWW sydicalist union. If you are ever up in Cape Breton Nova Scotia, look up his grandson Brian Herron for more about him. In One Big Union Larry |
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26 Dec 99 - 03:07 PM (#154323) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Big Mick Pete, InOBU is right on the mark. I have studied Connolly in depth, as he is very special to me. To say he was a socialist is to oversimplify. Connolly believed in Ireland's Wealth for Ireland's People. This is why he was so opposed to the British Government, they took the wealth while Irish people starved. He, in fact did go to NYC, learn Italian, organize dockworkers, and get out (like Larkin) before he was jailed for sedition. He went back to Dublin, formed the Irish Citizens Army, and the rest is history. He was, arguably, the most important cog in the Rising. The above is a vastly oversimplified version, but in the main it is true. There is a James Connolly Society, and if you enter his name in your Internet search engine, you will find your way to it. My interest in him is due to the fact that I am Irish American, a labor organizer, and my Granda always spoke of both Connolly and Larkin with the utmost reverence. I do a presentation in story and song on him for various Irish clubs on request. Now, let us get back to the thread subject. |
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26 Dec 99 - 04:53 PM (#154334) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Marymac90 To Larry and Big Mick, Thanks for the info on Connoly and the IWW. I'm always interested in learning more about such connections. To Pete, Aha! I see you're lurking around here too. I guess we will have a thing or two to talk about Friday. Best regards, Mary McCaffrey
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27 Dec 99 - 08:43 AM (#154443) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: InOBU To get back to the thread: The following quote, from Connolly, is found in the Ulster Protestant song, DONT READ ABOUT JIM... The most dispersive and isolating force at work in the labour movement today is craft unionism, the most cohesive and unifying force, industrial unionism. In view of that fact all objections which my comrads make to industrial unionism on the grounds of the supposedly, or truly, anti-poliitcal bias of many members of the Industrial Workers of the World is quite besie the mark. That question at the present stage of the same is purely doctineare. The use or non-use of political action will not be settled by the doctrinagres who may make it their hobby today, but will be settled by the workers who use the Industrial Workers of the World in their workshop struggles. ANd if at any time the conditions of a struggle in shop, factory, railroad, or mine necessitate the employment of political action those workers so organized will use it, all theories and theorists to the contrary notwithstanding. In their march to freedom the workers will use every weapon they find necessary. ANyone know the tune? Larry |
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29 Dec 99 - 09:45 PM (#155442) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Henry Hi, John M, Happy New Year. Hope to see you before too long. I am wary of defining traditions too closely to the extent that they become self-sustaining entities. While the "Orange Tradition" is a worthy tradition, I don't see it as outside and alien to the Irish Tradition, but as an aspect of same. After all, we talk of Donegal style fiddling and Conamara Sean Nós singing etc. but no one tries to give any of these an independant existence. They are all facets of the one Irish Tradition. Externally inspired and politically motivated ideas of what amounts to racist elitism has proved the curse of this country for far too long. Henry |
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30 Dec 99 - 04:16 PM (#155782) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: John Moulden Good to hear from you Henry but I don't believe I made any restrictions - talking about the sectarian "end" of a much broader tradition does after all indicate a spectrum. If you had read my Belfast Telegraph article (and I regret the link no longer works) you would see that it shows that there are songs which, with very slight changes, can be made serve whichever sectarian purpose is desired - and that sometimes a song seems threatening only because of the hearer's perceptions. Anyone interested in a copy of the article may e-mail me at jmoul810175@aol.com - I must apolgogise that the needs of the paper included extreme brevity. |
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31 Dec 99 - 07:42 PM (#156283) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Big Mick John, I have really enjoyed this thread. I have been lurking because I am not well enough versed in this side of my tradition to add. But I would love a copy of your article and will email straightaway. Wonderful thread. Mick |
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31 Dec 99 - 07:57 PM (#156296) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Richard Bridge A worthwhile history. Thank you. |
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31 Dec 99 - 08:52 PM (#156331) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Big Mick John, tried the supplied email addy and it came back undeliverable. Could you email me at mlane@accn.org? Mick |
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01 Jan 00 - 07:56 AM (#156509) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: John Moulden Stupid fingers! Sorry Mick. If anyone is interested, my e-mail is actually jmoul81075@aol.com |
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01 Jan 00 - 09:25 AM (#156538) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: Big Mick This is a wonderful article and I would strongly suggest that all read it, but most especially the Irish American "Republican". It sheds a light that is important to understand. Big Mick |
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16 Jun 00 - 07:16 PM (#243556) Subject: Also needing help on prodestant song From: GUEST,gordon ferguson i'm looking for the words to a song which contains the words "so i was walking down the falls with my f*****g tommy gun when i came across a t**g who tried to stop me so i shot him and i watched that b*****d die" anyone able to help me find the words to this cheers |
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17 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM (#243686) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny See if you can find an old march called "Lilly Burlero", also known as "The Protestant Boys". You may have heard the tune -- it's the theme jingle of the B.B.C. == Johnny in Oklahoma City |
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17 Jun 00 - 05:07 AM (#243722) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: The Shambles It is?
I thought it was Lou Reed's 'Perfect day'. There is on the early morning radio start-up an arrangement of a medley tunes from all of the UK countries. Can't remember what they are though but end result is pretty horrible, especially at that time of the morning. |
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14 Jul 00 - 04:05 PM (#257769) Subject: RE: Help: Ulster Protestant music From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive To learn the truth about the orange order go here -a comprehensive survey concerning tradition and celebration and song http://www.bcpl.net/~cbladey/orange.html Conrad |