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11 Nov 18 - 04:29 PM (#3961230) Subject: Two Popes at the Vatican From: keberoxu John Cornwell, author of the biography "Hitler's Pope," writing for Vanity Fair magazine, asserts that the presence of two living Popes at the Vatican is the stuff of a schism. Have there been two Popes at the Vatican at the same time before? Is this relevant to the "anti-Pope" controversies of centuries past? "Pope versus Pope" |
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12 Nov 18 - 03:00 AM (#3961288) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Mr Red When Cardinal Ratzinger was proclaimed Pontif the SUN**, with not a scintilla of irony, had banner headlines: PAPPA RATZI **a comic published by Rupert Merde Hoc |
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12 Nov 18 - 04:34 AM (#3961298) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Jack Campin And there are how many living US Presidents? Is that potential for a civil war? We can but hope... |
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12 Nov 18 - 08:31 AM (#3961325) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Donuel Translation of Ratzinger; An outstanding rat. |
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12 Nov 18 - 11:16 AM (#3961348) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: keberoxu Perhaps it is a sign of the times, that this situation is in place WITHOUT an anti-pope polarizing everyone. That this is not the medieval era, nor the Renaissance, when the Vatican really was the center of a worldly empire. Said empire is history now, and power is centered elsewhere. Yes, I knew that Benedict the sixteenth was still alive. I had not realized that he did not quit the Vatican itself, and that to me is the worrisome part: he is still dug in there like some sort of... naw, not going there. |
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12 Nov 18 - 12:13 PM (#3961360) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Will Fly Benedict lives in a small monastery in the grounds of the Vatican City - not in the main Vatican itself. Given that he was the first Pope to voluntarily resign office since the 15th century, it's a fairly unusual situation. Given that his renunciation of the Papacy was owing to his genuine feeling that he felt unable to cope with the demands of the job, I can't see his presence in the Vatican City as any kind of threat to anything. I'm not a religious person in any shpe or form, but I somehow can't see the presence of an ailing, 91-year old ex-Pope in the City as worrisome. |
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12 Nov 18 - 02:12 PM (#3961385) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Joe Offer Benedict XVI lived away from the Vatican for a while after his resignation, giving Francis time to get himself established. Then Benedict moved to an apartment in the Vatican, which was probably good for financial and security reasons. I've read that Francis consults with Benedict quite often. Benedict spends his time writing and studying, which is what he's good at (even Donuel might like his writing). The arrangement seems to be working very well. Yes, there are Catholics who do not see the resignation of Benedict and the election of Francis as legitimate. Heck, the Sedevacantists believe that the election of John XXIII in 1958 was not legitimate, and that the Chair of Peter has been vacant since 1958 (sedevacantist="empty seat"). There have been antipopes thoughout the history of the Catholic Church, especially during the 14th century. There were three popes at one period of time then, each with well-known saints supporting them. I suppose the plethora of antipopes in the 14th century was the result of moving the papacy to Avignon in France. That move didn't sit well with a lot of people. Can't say I put any credence in the catty-toned article from Cornwell, who seems to have a very destructive agenda. -Joe- |
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14 Nov 18 - 03:58 AM (#3961590) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Mr Red a small pedantic point that QI** likes to trot out. The only person who takes the official title of "Pope" is head of the orthodox church (can't remember if Greek or Russian). For the Catholic head of the church, titles like (?) Most Holy Father and Pontif are on the list, but apparently not Pope. per se. ** a spoof panel game that likes to trot out facts to wrong foot contestants, couched within such narrow limits as to be barely true a lot of the time. eg contrary (ish) to popular myth they think coffee has more caffeine than tea, and for all their precision neglect to qualify coffee as "filter" or "machine". It would not be as funny to have to point out that instant coffee has less! And how many red shoes (pairs) has the Pontif got? I am currently running (dancing actually) at 12. |
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14 Nov 18 - 04:34 AM (#3961592) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Joe Offer Well, Benedict stopped wearing red shoes when he quit rhe Pope job. Frankie da Pope never wore the red shoes. So, red shoes are out of papal fashion... |
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14 Nov 18 - 11:50 AM (#3961631) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Mr Red result of moving the papacy to Avignon in France a lot of eau sous le pont .......... ? |
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14 Nov 18 - 12:14 PM (#3961634) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Donuel Red Pope loafers are not to be confused with (red soled) Christian Louboutin Shoes at less than $1,000 a pair |
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14 Nov 18 - 12:40 PM (#3961637) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: fat B****rd Fine, but, do The Angels want to wear his red shoes? |
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15 Nov 18 - 08:25 AM (#3961780) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Donuel Ratzinger was caught red handed with his hand in the Vatican Bank, all other explanations are fairy tales' American Bishops are called upon but https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/distinctly-catholic/us-bishops-wont-restore-trust-announced-plans-stop-abuse |
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15 Nov 18 - 02:15 PM (#3961839) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Joe Offer Fake news, Donuel. Why would Ratzinger have any reason to have his hand in the till? From all accounts, Ratzinger did not have an extravagant lifestyle - except for the red shoes.... All the indicators point to Cardinal Bertone. -Joe- |
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16 Nov 18 - 10:38 PM (#3962020) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Rapparee You think today's Vatican is bad? |
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17 Nov 18 - 04:29 PM (#3962121) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: keberoxu One of my most insistent recall/memories of Pope Red Shoes is how he went out of his way to bring back into the Roman "fold", as it were, the old traditional Catholic holdouts who could not reconcile themselves to the Second Vatican Council, a point which I don't remember seeing in Cornwell's Vanity Fair piece. Red Shoes personally visited the United Kingdom in 2010 and it was a big deal for the monks on Papa Stronsay. |
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19 Nov 18 - 06:22 PM (#3962368) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: keberoxu "Summorum Pontificum" is the title of the Papal, what was it, moto proprio from Benedict XVI which stirred up so much commotion amongst all the Catholics alienated by the Second Vatican Council. A letter to the bishops accompanied this document -- 2007? -- about implementing the Pope's suggestions. Within the religious orders with foundations which found themselves on the margins, or beyond the pale, with the disappearance of the traditional Latin Mass, it was oddly enough two groups of Redemptorist[ine] religious who considered that Benedict XVI was coming halfway to meet them, and made what efforts they could to return the favor. This was in direct response to "Summorum Pontificum." What such monks/brothers and nuns understood from the document, was that the traditional Latin Mass had in fact never been done away with at the level at the Vatican, and that anyone who told them the traditional Latin Mass was outlawed had told them a falsehood. Papa Stronsay, off of Scotland, has been mentioned in the previous post. The Redemptorist monks and brothers there now observe the Latin Rite and they do so in full communion with Rome, thanks to Benedict XVI and his moto proprio. Then there are the Redemptoristine cloistered nuns in Brazil: however, that story, although it has a very happy ending, is rather more tortured and complicated, and deserves a separate posting. |
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13 Dec 18 - 07:36 PM (#3966156) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: keberoxu The author of the Vanity Fair feature article, John Cornwell, has written repeatedly on the Vatican and on the papacy. The opening post provided a link to Cornwell's book, Hitler's Pope, investigating the pontiff in place during the second World War. The Pope in Winter looks at the last years of John Paul II. When John Paul I's death shocked everyone, and there was more than conversation -- there were publications -- with the word "conspiracy," Cornwell wrote and published A Thief in the Night, disclosing in the most minute detail his own investigation into the circumstances of the pope's death. Much was made of the fact that the dead man's body had probably been moved before it was officially found. Cornwell looked as closely as possible, moreover, at John Paul I's health concerns and at how ill he might have been regardless. I can't comment further, as I have read the magazine article but not these books. Cornwell has also published a volume of memoirs titled Seminary Boy, and thereby must hang a tale. |
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13 Dec 18 - 09:48 PM (#3966172) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: McGrath of Harlow There are plenty of Bishops who have retired and resigned, and been replaced by new Bishops of their Diocese. That hadn't happened in the case of the Diocese of Rome till Benedict resigned, but so what? It's perfectly possible Francis might decide to do the same in time (not too soon I hope), and then, if Benedict is still alive, there'd be three of them. |
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14 Dec 18 - 12:03 PM (#3966266) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Big Al Whittle Gives me an idea for a song. Let's do the whole show in the barn! (to the tune Red Sails in the Sunset) Red Shoes in the Vatican Way out there in Rome The Pope's in St Peter's He's under the dome Red Shoes on his tootsies He calls us to prayer I've heard he's a Catholic He makes St Peter look square He's got rings on his fingers Those red shoes are class No wonder, he's the top job! You should hear him say mass..... |
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14 Dec 18 - 04:58 PM (#3966309) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Joe Offer Word has it that Frankie da Pope don't like dem fancy duds. It's been a tough five years for the Clothiers to the Vatican.During the reign of John Paul II, I used to get worried about young seminarians, because they all seemed to be enthralled by the pomp and circumstance and fancy clothing. With Frankie as Pope, all that stuff is no longer in fashion. Austerity is the name of the game. -Joe- |
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14 Dec 18 - 05:06 PM (#3966310) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Donuel Red shoes in the sunset Red shoes in the sunset, on the holy sea Oh, carry my loved one home safely to me He walked at the dawning, all day I've been blue Red shoes in the sunset, I'm trusting in you Swift shoes you must borrow Make haste for some more We marry tomorrow And we go stalking no more Red shoes in the sunset, on the holy sea Oh, carry my loved one home safely to me |
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14 Dec 18 - 05:10 PM (#3966311) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Donuel Cole |
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14 Dec 18 - 05:13 PM (#3966312) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Joe Offer We had a soon-to-be-ordained Korean seminarian in our parish in the 1980s. One day, he was all decked out in a black cassock with a white, lace-trimmed surplice. I stopped him and pointed to the pastor, who was wearing a plaid shirt with a v-neck sweater. I said, "See that? Never dress fancier than the pastor." The seminarian followed my advice until he left the parish; but after he was ordained, he became infamous in the diocese for his officious clerical garb. -Joe- |
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14 Dec 18 - 06:27 PM (#3966317) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Rapparee I think they all should wear the brown or gray woolen habits. This will keep them warm and comfortable. After 70 years in the priesthood they can wear a wool blend. No footwear, everyone is discalced. |
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14 Dec 18 - 06:41 PM (#3966320) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: keberoxu If they all wore those habits, they would all look like Seán Cardinal O'Malley. But he wears sandals. |
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17 Dec 18 - 02:01 PM (#3966848) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Thompson Apparently the Pope's handmade scarlet shoes represent Christ's bloodied feet as he staggered towards Calvary. Jesus wept! |
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17 Dec 18 - 02:26 PM (#3966856) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: keberoxu It's news to me that red shoes are the traditional/conventional papal garb, I never knew/heard of it before. |
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18 Dec 18 - 09:48 PM (#3967152) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Rapparee The Pope's official title: Pope Francis I, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God. |
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18 Dec 18 - 10:50 PM (#3967157) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Donuel The high crimes and misdemeanors committed by Ratzinger upon the Vatican Bank needed to be punished but for the new Pope to expose this to the world would be self injurious to the Church. Betrayal seems to be a very heavy theme in Christianity so while the Rat is alive it is unlikely he will be ratted out. In other words Ratzinger is fairly safe from being exposed or betrayed for his crimes. imho |
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19 Dec 18 - 12:45 AM (#3967165) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Joe Offer Rapparee says Pope Francis I, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God. Whew! I wonder if Frankie da Pope has all that memorized.... |
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19 Dec 18 - 08:58 AM (#3967238) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Thompson Papa… put on your red shoes and dance the blues… ??? |
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19 Dec 18 - 08:59 AM (#3967239) Subject: RE: BS: historians? red shoes at vatican From: Rapparee If you want to impress the Pope, do it in Latin: Franciscus Pontifex et Episcopi Romani, vicarii Iesu Christi, successoris in locum Principis Apostolorum, Summus Pontifex universae Ecclesiae Primate in Italia, Archiepiscopus Metropolita provinciam nostram, et nunc Dominator Status Ecclesiae, minister servi Dei. But don't us Google Translate -- have someone translate it into good Latin. (I'm glad the Pope is a primate in Italy, but wonder what sort of critter he is elsewhere.) |
