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12 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM (#3987008) Subject: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains After many years claiming refuge in the London embassy of Ecuador, Julian Assange was yesterday arrested and removed from the embassy. He was charged with jumping bail but is likely to be subject to extradition to the US for "political "offenses" Did he conspire with Chelsea Manning to create Wilkileaks? Was this taking freedom of speech too far, and responsible for the death of spies? Or does the public have a right to know what deep state is up to? https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/12/julian-assange-charges-press-freedom-journalism |
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12 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM (#3987011) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains Strctly speaking as Assange is of Aussie/Ecuadorian nationality he cannot be a traitor in respect of charges laid in the US, but? |
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12 Apr 19 - 05:12 AM (#3987015) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel When the US levied the death penalty upon him, Assange was a hero in hiding. Now facing a 5 year maximum sentence in the USA* he is a chicken shit. Trump praised Wikileaks 144 times but today he did his impression of Nazi Sargent Shultz "I know Nothiiing" |
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12 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM (#3987024) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: McGrath of Harlow "Maximum sentence" - only until they've got hold of him. Then the sky's the limit. |
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12 Apr 19 - 06:59 AM (#3987027) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel BESIDES, The Ecuadorian staff complained to the President that Julian Assange did not change the litter in his cat's box and his cat soiled everywhere! |
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12 Apr 19 - 07:06 AM (#3987029) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel *USA (United States of Amazon) |
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12 Apr 19 - 07:22 AM (#3987032) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel Julian's hygiene was called into question, even by Shane's standards. Iain why does your phraseology and word order sound so Russian? |
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12 Apr 19 - 07:23 AM (#3987033) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll It seems that to some, "traitor" interprets into "those who don't agree with me" - kately that has included democratically elected politicians, including a Prime Minister MY FAVOURITE "TRAITOR" Nowadays, thy hold the line between a society and a Police State If we haven't learned anything from Watergate and Dolphin Square, we will never learn anything - I hope I live long enough to see a similar job done on Trump Jim Carroll |
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12 Apr 19 - 07:33 AM (#3987036) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains traitor - Wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/traitor Someone who violates an allegiance and betrays their country; someone guilty of treason; one who, in breach of trust, delivers their country to an enemy, ... Now how many times has the PM lied to the country about brexit? |
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12 Apr 19 - 08:11 AM (#3987042) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll Since when has Europe been "the enemy" ? If that is the case, the nearly fifty percent of those who voted to remain in the EU are all traitors If lying politicians is your definition of treason every politician who has stood for election and failed to honour their promises should be banged up - Britain't unemployment problems would be solved overnight with a rush to build enough jails Maybe we should start up a new gallows-making industry to hand those who stole the taxpayers money to buikld palaces for their ducks !" That is an utterly stupid suggestion aimed at protecting the establishment form having to reveal their actions to the people - the logic of a supporter of extremism Insane Jim Carroll |
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12 Apr 19 - 08:19 AM (#3987044) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Dave the Gnome Jim, your at it again! Please stop encouraging him. |
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12 Apr 19 - 08:49 AM (#3987049) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll Dave Because this moron is a vicious troll doesn't mean I'm going to be excluded from discussing this subject - if we have to put up with him, expose him for the extremist he is by using his own idiocy Otherwise he will continue to use this forum as a platform for his extremist hate When he becomes abusive, that's when he needs to be ignored Jim |
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12 Apr 19 - 08:53 AM (#3987050) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Dave the Gnome You are not excluded from discussing any subject, Jim, but there is no need to expose anyone for anything. They do it all by themselves and when someone repeatedly makes posts to purposely create strife the only option is to ignore them altogether. |
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12 Apr 19 - 08:56 AM (#3987051) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll I've made my point and am satisfied enough not to take it any further Prolonging it seems to do just that I don't believe just ignoring them makes them go away - it hasn't so far Jim |
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12 Apr 19 - 09:09 AM (#3987054) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Steve Shaw Assange should be made to face the sexual assault allegations in Sweden and, if needs be, face the consequences. But he must not be extradited to the US. What the yanks want him for (essentially, for embarrassing the country by revealing some of its dirty secrets) has nothing to do with the sexual assault allegations. |
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12 Apr 19 - 09:14 AM (#3987055) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel Vanunu is hero, Sununu was a traitor |
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12 Apr 19 - 10:32 AM (#3987064) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll "Assange should be made to face the sexual assault allegations in Sweden and, if needs be, face the consequences." Interesting timeline here “Assange founded WikiLeaks in 2006 and came to international attention in 2010 when WikiLeaks published a series of leaks provided by Chelsea Manning (then known as Bradley Manning). These leaks included the Collateral Murder video (April 2010),[3][4] the Afghanistan war logs (July 2010), the Iraq war logs (October 2010), and CableGate (November 2010). Following the 2010 leaks, the federal government of the United States launched a criminal investigation into WikiLeaks and asked allied nations for assistance” “On 20 August 2010, two women, a 26-year-old living in Enköping and a 31-year-old living in Stockholm,[4][5] jointly went to the Swedish police not seeking to bring charges against Assange but in order to track him down and persuade him to be tested for sexually transmitted diseases after their separate sexual encounters with him.[6] The police told them that they could not simply tell Assange to take a test, but that their statements would be passed to the prosecutor.[7] Later that day, the duty prosecutor ordered the arrest of Julian Assange on the suspicion of rape and molestation.[8]” “The proceedings began in 2012 and on 12 August 2015, Swedish prosecutors announced that they would drop their investigation into three of the allegations against Assange, because of the expiration of the statute of limitations. The investigation into the allegation of rape, as of 19 May 2017, has been dropped by Swedish authorities” Is it my imagination or does this real like a Len Deighton novel ? Jim Carroll |
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12 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM (#3987065) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll Or maybe even a Wikileak Jim |
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12 Apr 19 - 11:10 AM (#3987070) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains Because this moron is a vicious troll doesn't mean I'm going to be excluded from discussing this subject - if we have to put up with him, expose him for the extremist he is by using his own idiocy Otherwise he will continue to use this forum as a platform for his extremist hate Says he who claims repeatedly he insults no one! Good to see the usual culprits trolling on yet another thread. Now how about discussing Assange. If I wanted a thread discussing me I would be conceited enough to open one. |
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12 Apr 19 - 12:13 PM (#3987081) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: meself Nothing to do with what he's charged with - but he certainly seemed to be giving trump a lot of help to get into the White House - which makes him an enemy of the US, doesn't it? |
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12 Apr 19 - 12:14 PM (#3987082) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: meself And civilization in general, I might add! |
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12 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM (#3987094) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll " but he certainly seemed to be giving trump a lot of help to get into the White House" How (As if Trump needed help, especially as he's already there) ? Maybe he carries him up the stairs after a night on the ladies !! Jim Carroll |
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12 Apr 19 - 01:24 PM (#3987095) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: punkfolkrocker Do they already have Stannah Stairlifts for elderly presidents in the whitehouse...??? |
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12 Apr 19 - 02:20 PM (#3987104) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: meself Reading comprehension, Jim - your sarcasm makes no sense. Perhaps you need it explained: getting trump into the White House means getting him elected president. He was not "in the White House" before that. As for Assange's role, Rachel can get the idea across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXNHtg_UUo8 |
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12 Apr 19 - 04:04 PM (#3987119) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Thompson He looked very unwell in the photos of his arrest. And many years older than those seven years would warrant. |
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12 Apr 19 - 04:20 PM (#3987121) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Acorn4 BBC News, The Daily Mail, The Guardian, Sky News -most mainstream media - all distort, skew, select, take out of context, lie according to the agenda of their paymasters. No action. Wikileaks gave us the truth. A criminal offence. |
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12 Apr 19 - 04:23 PM (#3987122) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel Although Assange is smarter than dictator Trump he was/is none the less a useful Idiot for the Russians |
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12 Apr 19 - 05:07 PM (#3987125) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: bobad I had some admiration of him until he became Putin's useful idiot and helped Trump get elected. Now I could care less what happens to him. |
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12 Apr 19 - 05:35 PM (#3987130) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: McGrath of Harlow As I understand the guiding principle is, information that powerful people are trying to keep secret should be out in public view. Not about taking sides. "Tell the truth and shame the devil". Sometimes that's going to help one side, sometimes it's going to help the other. That's actually the principle that distinguishes ethical journalism from propaganda. The odd thing about the Swedish sex case that I've never seen explained is why he appears to have believed that the Swedish authorities were more likely than the British to cooperate with the Americans, when it came to deporting him to America to get punished for enabling Manning to expose criminal activities by US armed forces. Whatever he may have done I'd think that his self imposed imprisonment in that embassy for nine years more than covers it, and should be treated by any court as "time served". |
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12 Apr 19 - 06:36 PM (#3987138) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: bobad View from The Atlantic: In the end, the man who reportedly smeared feces on the walls of his lodgings, mistreated his kitten, and variously blamed the ills of the world on feminists and bespectacled Jewish writers was pulled from the Ecuadorian embassy looking every inch like a powdered-sugar Saddam Hussein plucked straight from his spider hole. The only camera crew to record this pivotal event belonged to Ruptly, a Berlin-based streaming-online-video service, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of RT, the Russian government’s English-language news channel and the former distributor of Julian Assange’s short-lived chat show. Julian Assange Got What He Deserved |
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12 Apr 19 - 07:52 PM (#3987142) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: meself "Sometimes that's going to help one side, sometimes it's going to help the other. That's actually the principle that distinguishes ethical journalism from propaganda." And, to my understanding, that's where Assange slipped into "propaganda". He seems to have released info. detrimental to Hillary, and sat on info. detrimental to trump. Btw, I don't claim to have all the goods on this; I've just picked up a bit here and there from the news. |
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12 Apr 19 - 11:14 PM (#3987152) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Vashta Nerada https://www.newstatesman.com/2019/04/wikileaks-was-future-once-then-it-became-julian-assange "Indeed, if you have been watching him as long as I have, it’s all there in the early blogs he wrote as a teenager. An incredible intelligence, an understanding of systems, a denial of individual feeling – and a messiah complex. It’s all a bit pre-Incel. The judge yesterday called him a narcissist as he sat and read Gore Vidal in court. Ever the rebel without a hard drive." |
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12 Apr 19 - 11:14 PM (#3987153) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: robomatic Way way back I read a New Yorker article on Assange that gave a rounded assessment, which cast him as somewhat heroic in his own mind, somewhat gadflyish in real life, but important in his ability to organize and assimilate information on the internet. Most recent New Yorker comment. Personally I think he has too high an opinion of himself to properly vet his own work, but he is also reacting to severe political barbs aimed at him. Putin is properly sending him kitty treats. I think his rise is a sign of the times and contributes to letting us know we have to pay attention to sources and not trusting nobody with an axe to grind. Also kinda ironic to be an early casualty of the Swedish "Jag också" movement. A little hygiene in bed goes a long way. I think a little humiliation will be good for his soul, like I really care about his soul. I DON'T know how putting him away for a lot of time can be justified, other than his Swedish problems. But then, the President of the U.S. has a similar track record with both info and flickas, and he hasn't been indicted. |
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13 Apr 19 - 02:55 AM (#3987161) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll "Reading comprehension, Jim - your sarcasm makes no sense" Sorry if that's how it came across - it was no more than a (feeble maybe) attempt at humour I have no idea how Assange 'helped Trump to get to the White House' - if he did - my instincts are that if people like Bobad says he did he probably didn't The latest sharp swing to the extreme right - Brexit, Trump, the rise of European neo-fascism, a sharp spike in racist incidents.... have been brought about by substituting basic prejudices for real information - scapegoat politics of the worst kind 'Democracy' of the watered down type we have lived under for so long, has relied on the voter believing what they are told - now the establishment appears to be running out of excuses and is trying a new tack I know nothing whatever about Assange as a an individual and I don't particularly want to - he provided information that we needed to have and the fact that the establishment accused him of being a "traitor" is enough for me to believe he struck a raw nerve. The State has always have had a way of dealing with uncomfortable information leaks - security being the favourite The U.S. is as 'insecure' as it has ever been with an inarticulate moron with his finger on the red button. Britain played the Populist card and now no longer has a Governing body that can agree on the most important decision it has ever taken When Assange let the cat out of the bag, within a year a casual accusation of passing on a sexual infection turned into a rape charge Ireland has just gotten over a case where an honest policeman blew the whistle on police corruption - shortly after making his case he was facing accusations of interfering with children... later proved to be totally unfounded How far do you want to go back.... ? When one of Ireland's great national liberation heroes caught the people's imagination and was executed, his memory was besmeared because he was a homosexual Some countries have a far cruder way of dealing with whistle-blowers - in the case of my particular hero, seventeen years in solitary confinement was their punishment for telling the world that an unstable right-wing state indulging in driving out the legal occupants of their lands had become nuclear-capable Please don't get bogged down in meaningless discussions on what these people might be in their private lives - it's what they did which makes them important Jim Carroll |
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13 Apr 19 - 03:40 AM (#3987168) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Backwoodsman Hmmmmm....an Unholy Alliance? And now we have The Nicotine-Stained Frog forming a new Party to help him in his poisonous plot. Seems like Billy Shakespeare was right, but it’s not just in the State of Denmark where ‘something is rotten’. |
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13 Apr 19 - 04:03 AM (#3987173) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: David Carter (UK) If there is a plausible case that he is guilty of rape, he should be tried for that. But no way should he be handed over to the USA, he has played a large part as a journalist in exposing American wrongdoing. |
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13 Apr 19 - 11:13 AM (#3987179) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll " he has played a large part as a journalist in exposing American wrongdoing." My point entirely Jim |
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13 Apr 19 - 12:24 PM (#3987185) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: punkfolkrocker Perhaps if he was sent to America, Trump would offer him a job on his team...??? |
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13 Apr 19 - 12:39 PM (#3987189) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: McGrath of Harlow It seems right that the allegations about sexual abuse or rape should be cleared up, and that would justify him being handed over to the Swedish justice system. But the threat of trial in America in connection with whistle blowing is a very different matter. He is accused of helping Chelsea Manning to expose actions by the American armed services amounting to war crimes. If he is guilty of this, rather than punishment he deserves a medal. The threat of being handed over to the Americans were the reason he fled to the Ecuador embassy for those long years. He feared that the Swedish or British authorities would do this if he stayed within their reach. So far as the British authorities that threat is greater than ever, especially if we are cosying up to them in hope of a favourable trade deal post Brexit. I'd think he might be better to put his trust in Sweden, and in the EU. Whatever happens his years of self imposed imprisonment in the Ecuador embassy should be treated as "time served" if it comes to any sentence imposed on him. |
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13 Apr 19 - 06:33 PM (#3987226) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: robomatic I wonder if he has been impaired in any way by the long years in isolation. Maybe it is the immediate happenings about him but he did not look in good order in the popularly shown footage of being taken into custody. |
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13 Apr 19 - 06:59 PM (#3987228) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: punkfolkrocker It looked like the authorities had captured a gnome... |
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14 Apr 19 - 06:59 AM (#3987287) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains I wonder how many of the stories about his time within the embassy are actually true? Or were they part of a softening up process to wittle away his support. I wonder to what extent those rape charges were true? Originally it was a request he submit to testing for STD's. This suddenly escalated to rape charges. How much deep state influence was involved in that process one may ask? Like so many things it is a serious game of smoke and mirrors, rabbit holes galore, to trap the unwary. It shows remarkable affiliation to: The horror tales of brexit Russian intereferance in the Presidential elections. The constant negative references to populism (It could be it is simply popular and does not fit with the agenda of the elite!) There are many here who fall for it every time- hook, line and sinker! |
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14 Apr 19 - 11:22 PM (#3987413) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: EBarnacle Go WNYC.org and bring up today's "on the media." It gives an interesting analysis of whether he is a journalist or just a reposter. Personally, I do not see him as a slightly more sophisticated version of Agent Orange, in that he makes no effort to contextualize the information he dumps on the world. Just another compliant fool working in Putin's arena. It would appear that he is/was another "gotcha" guy. |
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15 Apr 19 - 08:38 AM (#3987473) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: McGrath of Harlow Any criticisms Assange might justly be open to have nothing to do with what the American authorities are planning to get him for, if he gets handed over to their tender care - acting in such a way as to reveal to the world, and to the American public, War Crimes carried out by the American armed forces. |
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15 Apr 19 - 12:24 PM (#3987512) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: bobad Hacking into classified government computers is a criminal offense. |
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15 Apr 19 - 12:41 PM (#3987514) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel The New Yorker has an annonymus hotline for whistle blower data. Wikileaks does too. But the moment they help to steal data it is not accepting journalism information, it becomes a possible theft. Assange is a professional rebel. He is proud with that. He clearly went stir crazy over 7 years. So would you but probably in different ways. |
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15 Apr 19 - 12:46 PM (#3987515) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Mossback Hacking into classified government computers is a criminal offense. So are war crimes, bo, me boy, and a much more serious one. |
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15 Apr 19 - 01:12 PM (#3987519) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: McGrath of Harlow And being a criminal offence means he faces severe punishment for it from the American authorities - and that's just why he shouldn't be handed over. We all have a duty to break the law in certain circumstances. In cases where the lawbreaking is justified it should not be regarded as criminal. But I'd not trust that court to accept that in this case. |
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15 Apr 19 - 01:26 PM (#3987522) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel In a lawsuit the first question is 'whose ox is injured'. I suspect it is the US and the Democratic party in particlar. Assange has over rated truth as being a personal preference and always brings light to the darkness. Where was the truth about Trump? Assange is not as smart as he thinks he is. |
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15 Apr 19 - 11:35 PM (#3987597) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: EBarnacle Back to the original issue, you cannot be a traitor to a government you have not sworn allegiance to. |
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16 Apr 19 - 02:11 AM (#3987601) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Backwoodsman Good point E. The word ‘traitor’ Is bandied around too frequently and far too easily nowadays, by people who have no actual understanding of its true meaning. This is especially true of Gammon Right-Wingers. |
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16 Apr 19 - 09:42 AM (#3987680) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel ?Who called him a traitor? thats nuts I'm saying he not a hero but once upon a time he had good intentions. people make mistakes It takes bullies to make martyrs |
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16 Apr 19 - 10:04 AM (#3987686) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Backwoodsman ”Who called him a traitor” Read the thread title, Don! thats nuts Precisely what one would expect from the OP. Most of the stuff he posts is nuts. |
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17 Apr 19 - 08:07 AM (#3987815) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: McGrath of Harlow Mind you the term traitor can be used in a wider, more rhetorical sense. It would be reasonable enough to talk about Donald Trump as being a traitor to the human race for his efforts to reverse any efforts to respond to climate change. |
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17 Apr 19 - 08:14 AM (#3987817) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Donuel I don't care for only being given 2 choices. Its either genius or moronic propoganda. |
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17 Apr 19 - 08:25 AM (#3987819) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Jim Carroll "Precisely what one would expect from the OP. Most of the stuff he posts is nuts." The same nutter thinks the Prime Minister and everybody who doesn't agree with him on Brexit is "a traitor" A suitable case for treatment, I would suggest Jim Carroll |
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17 Apr 19 - 08:49 AM (#3987821) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: punkfolkrocker A lot of loud dangerous nutters would accuse many of us of being 'traitors' to our white race... |
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17 Apr 19 - 09:59 AM (#3987836) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains From Traitor to Patriot: Sydney Morning Herald January 9, 2017 — 11.51pm https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/julian-assanges-rapid-rise-on-the-right-20170109-gtoacc.html |
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17 Apr 19 - 01:37 PM (#3987865) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Mossback Note word after .au/ |
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17 Apr 19 - 02:59 PM (#3987879) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: Iains Mossback Most of what is posted is opinion, apart from the clarification of post #2 (overlooked by certain of the most recent posts) |
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18 Apr 19 - 10:09 PM (#3988116) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: bobad Julian Assange not only knew that a murdered Democratic National Committee staffer wasn’t his source for thousands of hacked party emails, he was in active contact with his real sources in Russia’s GRU months after Seth Rich’s death. At the same time he was publicly working to shift blame onto the slain staffer “to obscure the source of the materials he was releasing,” Special Counsel Robert Mueller asserts in his final report on Russia’s role in the 2016 presidential election. Daily Beast |
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20 Apr 19 - 12:20 PM (#3988372) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: EBarnacle To continue my analogy, McGrath, Trump would have to join the human race to be a traitor to it. Especially as he cuts most of it away from his consideration, he is not a member of the group . . . only a small, shrinking, subset. |
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20 Apr 19 - 09:12 PM (#3988424) Subject: RE: BS: Julian Assange Traitor or hero? From: The Sandman a good man ,like jesus he will be crucified |