Persians

22 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM (#4001613)
Subject: Persians
From: Bonzo3legs

All the Persians I have ever known - perhaps half a dozen, think the present government there is bonkers!!!

---

22 Jul 19 - 04:24 PM (#4001614)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Dave the Gnome

I like their rugs.

---

22 Jul 19 - 04:32 PM (#4001617)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm not too keen on any kinds of cats...

whatever they say about our government...

---

22 Jul 19 - 04:38 PM (#4001619)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

GUEST - here you anonymous misery...

Top Persian Music 2018

---

22 Jul 19 - 04:40 PM (#4001620)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

that guest didn't stay long...

hope he/she likes the music she/he was curious about...

---

22 Jul 19 - 04:42 PM (#4001622)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Mrrzy

One man's Mede is another man's Persian, I have read.

---

22 Jul 19 - 05:45 PM (#4001630)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: keberoxu

When was the last time
there was a nation called Persia?
I need to look this up.

And do they speak middle Persian,
or the
Arabic-Farsi blend post-Prophet?

Do they have a Shah or an Imam?

If they don't call their country Persia, what do they call it?
Are there Zoroastrians there?

if the question is serious,
it needs to be more specific ...

---

22 Jul 19 - 05:57 PM (#4001633)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

on second thoughts..

cats couldn't run goverments much worse than most nation's citizens are having to put up with...

---

22 Jul 19 - 06:32 PM (#4001636)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Mossback

All the Persians I have ever known - perhaps half a dozen, think the present government there is bonkers!!!

What do they think of the present government of Trumpshitistan - or what used to be the United States.

---

22 Jul 19 - 09:05 PM (#4001645)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Charmion

The only human Persians I have met came to Canada as refugees. I did not discuss politics because they generally preferred not to. They seemed more interested in hockey, cars and food.

---

22 Jul 19 - 11:44 PM (#4001656)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: EBarnacle

I know only one Persian. I administered the course and test for his ham radio license. He passed with a very good score.

---

23 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM (#4001667)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

The present dispute with Iran is rooted in the agreement on the development of Nuclear weapons
As far as I'm concerned, no nation should hold the fate of mankind in its hands and the last one to dictate who should and who shouldn't have the wherewithal to make this possible is one who has already used weapons of mass destruction on civilians on a not-so-grand scale - especially as it now has an aggressively unstable leader at its head.
The recognised term for those living in Iran is "Iranians" - referring to peoples by anything but their chosen name name went out with Empire (or should have done) - Cyrus and the Shah are figures of the past
Jim Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 04:46 AM (#4001673)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government. The USA and UK toppled it. Oil has dominated Middle Eastern politics ever since Churchill designated it as bunker fuel for the Navy.The Shah's regime was seen as an oppressive, brutal, corrupt, and extravagant regime by some of the society's classes at that time. It also suffered from some basic functional failures that brought economic bottlenecks, shortages, and inflation. The Shah was perceived by many as a puppet of – a non-Muslim Western power (the United States) The Shah's regime was seen as an oppressive, brutal, corrupt, and extravagant regime by some of the society's classes at that time. It also suffered from some basic functional failures that brought economic bottlenecks, shortages, and inflation. No surprise it was toppled.
The first rule of puppet governments is keep the people happy.It must also be pointed out that the US scored no additional brownie points by tacitly supporting Iraq during the prolonged Iranian Iraqi war. IT would seem entirely reasonable to me that the Iranian Government distrusts all US words and actions.

---

23 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM (#4001675)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
CRAP - DEMOCRACY UNDER THE SHAH
im Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 05:32 AM (#4001676)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Bonzo3legs

Persians who escaped Persia after the revolution very much regard their country as Persia, and fo NOT recognise the current bunch. Persia is very much alive.

---

23 Jul 19 - 05:59 AM (#4001680)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

"Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
CRAP - DEMOCRACY UNDER THE SHAH
A typical kneejerk reaction of the chief troublemaker little jimmie.
Jumps in with both feet before understanding what was said! Stupid boy.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/20/64-years-later-cia-finally-releases-details-of-iranian-coup-iran-tehran-oil/

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:05 AM (#4001681)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo

Country, land, state, people - all different things.

I recommend 'The Silk Road' by Peter Frankopan. Persia, Iran, Zoroastrians, ... even the Medes get a mention.

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:21 AM (#4001683)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"Lirttle Jimmie - "stupid boy"
A typical defensive response to a well documented fact
That the CIA (a security service of a nation quite familiar with using torture and undemocratic methods for its own advantage), should also involve itself in clandestine activities in a repressed state, proves only the old provrb - "birds of a feather.... etc)
The Shah's police were notorious for their torture and murder at the time of what was an immensely well-supported coup
Those who "escaped" were largely supporters of the Shah's regime - see Cuba for an example of supporters of "America's Open Sewer escaping to freedom"
Jim Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM (#4001684)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

SEE HERE FOR THE SHAH's DEMOCRACY

We seem to be back in Iains's "that poor, misunderstood Mr Assad's" Wonderland once more
Must do something about those rabbit holes
Jim Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM (#4001686)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

The link given at 0559 directly contradicts the link provider's claim that "Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government," presumably the precise opposite of what he intended. Here's a little extract from the article in the link.

"The coup alienated liberals in Iran as well. Mossadegh is widely considered to be the closest thing Iran has ever had to a democratic leader. He openly championed democratic values and hoped to establish a democracy in Iran.The elected parliament selected him as prime minister, a position he used to reduce the power of the shah, thus bringing Iran closer in line with the political traditions that had developed in Europe. But any further democratic development was stymied on Aug. 19."

So never a democracy, and it most assuredly never was under the Shah.

I may not be a prolific provider of links but I least I read my sources to ensure that they don't contradict my point, still less pepper my response with insults.

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM (#4001688)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Once again the troublemaker dredges in arguments from old threads and adds his usual distortion and lies to make his fallacious points. He also sufffers from his usual problem of either not reading or more likely not understanding the issues raised.

As I stated Mohammad-Mosaddegh was democratically elected until toppled after nationalising the anglo iranian oil(BP) company assets. The replacement Shah was perceived by many as a puppet.


https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:47 AM (#4001689)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: wysiwyg

A close US-born, european-heritage friend married into the culture, raised the resulting children bi-culturally, and (now in late widowhood) remains deeply fond of the culture. It's best understood from within personal relationship.

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:58 AM (#4001692)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"Once again the troublemaker dredges in arguments from old threads"
And once again you defend democrat9c States

---

23 Jul 19 - 06:58 AM (#4001693)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"Once again the troublemaker dredges in arguments from old threads"
And once again you defend democrat9c States

---

23 Jul 19 - 07:16 AM (#4001695)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

"As I stated Mohammad-Mosaddegh was democratically elected..."

You have stated no such thing, at least not in this thread, and the link you provided which was supposed to support you actually contradicts you, as I've shown. It wasn't hard. All I had to do was read the piece you so kindly pointed to. Try that approach some time.

---

23 Jul 19 - 07:20 AM (#4001697)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

Circa 1981, in a big city up north,
we had either an Iranian or Iraqi living in a bedsit above us.
He was a perpetual student, getting on for 30, who quietly kept himself to himself.
We found out from the landlady he was the son of a high ranking military officer
staying in England studying different subjects from one year to the next,
rather than go home and be pushed into military service and war.

Can't remember what happened to him.
The only thing that sticks in my mind,
was how much he hogged the only bathroom in the building..
Presumably preoccupied with prayer rituals...???
Keeping me and my girlfriend waiting outside on the stairs..
Not much fun shivering outside a north country attic bathroom in winter...

[We also had an old drunk living below us, who stole my girlfriends underware off the washing line..
The fun of leaving home in small town west country for distant big city life...]

Anyway, we kind of speculated that if the student was hiding out in England,
he was probably very cautious about being found by other expat/refugee Iranians or Iraquis at that time in history...???

---

23 Jul 19 - 07:22 AM (#4001699)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

Incidentally, your Britannica link also contradicts your claim that he was democratically elected, indicating as it does that he was appointed by the Shah. I hope the rest of your day goes better.

---

23 Jul 19 - 07:28 AM (#4001701)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

I think you are absolutely right, Susan. I also think that the West has treated Iran, which could be a prosperous and peaceful nation, shamefully. I met some Iranians in London recently who, whilst enjoying the western lifestyle, missed their country and wanted to get back. "It is so much more civilised there." What do WE know?

---

23 Jul 19 - 07:40 AM (#4001705)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo

1950 Iranian legislative election

---

23 Jul 19 - 09:30 AM (#4001721)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

Wiki.

"The Supreme Leader of Iran is the head of state and highest ranking political and religious authority (above the President). The armed forces, judicial system, state television, and other key governmental organizations are under the control of the Supreme Leader. There have been only two Supreme Leaders since the founding of the Islamic Republic, and the current leader (Ali Khamenei), has been in power since 1989. His powers extend to issuing decrees and making final decisions on the economy, environment, foreign policy, education, national planning of population growth, the amount of transparency in elections in Iran, and who is to be fired and reinstated in the Presidential cabinet.

The Supreme Leader is appointed and supervised by the Assembly of Experts. However, all candidates to the Assembly of Experts, the President and the Majlis (Parliament), are selected by the Guardian Council, half of whose members are selected by the Supreme Leader of Iran. Also, all directly-elected members after the vetting process by the Guardian Council still have to be approved by the Supreme Leader. As such, the Assembly has never questioned the Supreme Leader."

Do read that second paragraph slowly. Not democracy.

---

23 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM (#4001728)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

...which, I meant to say, now covers Iran since WWII, if you read that along with my extract from the 05:59 AM link. Never a democracy.

---

23 Jul 19 - 10:12 AM (#4001732)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo

The current constitution dates from 1979 when Iran became an Islamic republic.
Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran

The (Persian) 1906 constitution introduced democracy, and while modified in 1949 when the Shah attempted to increase his powers, was the one under which Mosaddegh was elected.
1949 Iranian Constituent Assembly election

I see that under the 1906 constiution voters - men aged 30-70 - had to "have some insight into affairs of State." So not democracy as we know it today ;)

---

23 Jul 19 - 10:14 AM (#4001734)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

As I said in my first contribution to this thread:

Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government. The USA and UK toppled it.
The coup threw out the then Prime Minister Mossadeq and replacd him with the Shah. Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh was Iran’s prime minister elected as such by the Iranian Parliament at a time when parliamentary elections were in fact considered legitimate in Iran. For millions of Iranians he symbolizes Iranian sovereignty and patriotism. During his short tenure in office (April 1951-August 1953) he managed to implement the legislation (which he had spearheaded in Parliament) that nationalized the oil industry, ending almost 50 years of British monopoly over Iran’s petroleum excavation, extraction, research, marketing and sales.
In contrast the Shah(Who was originally placed in power by outside interests) had an autocratic government and kept a whip hand on the population with his secret police, trained by the CIA.

My contribution gets misquoted by our resident troublemaker little jimmy to:
"Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
CRAP - DEMOCRACY UNDER THE SHAH

and then our resident pedant and nit picker shaw jumps in and takes hold of little jimmies contribution as fact and starts to argue with my opening statement and quotes:
So never a democracy, and it most assuredly never was under the Shah. without a single fact to back up his assertions.

Many others describe government under Mossadeq as democratic,not perfect by any means but democratic.
https://www.neiu.edu/academics/college-of-business-and-management/mossadegh-initiative/who-was-mohammad-mossadegh

Many Iranians regard Mosaddegh as the leading champion of secular democracy and resistance to foreign domination in Iran's modern history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh



Some contributors here just turn up spoiling for a fight, some cannot even support their "Facts" with verifiable links!

Further history:
"In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries which it had diplomatic relations with, to call Persia "Iran," which is the name of the country in Persian.
The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of "Aryan" blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history and had freed itself from the pernicious influences of Britain and Russia, whose interventions in Persian affairs had practically crippled the country under the Qajars, it was only fitting that the country be called by its own name, "Iran." This would not only signal a new beginning and bring home to the world the new era in Iranian history, but would also signify the Aryan race of its population, as "Iran" is a cognate of "Aryan" and derived from it."

---

23 Jul 19 - 10:17 AM (#4001735)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo

Sorry - it's candidates for election that must be aged 30-70 and have to have some insight into affairs of State. So still not democracy as we know it today.

---

23 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM (#4001752)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: leeneia

Forty years ago, my best friend married a man from Iran. He sometimes referred to it as Persia. More often, he referred to his language (Farsi) as Persian.

He pronounced Iran "EE-run." He was a nice man.

---

23 Jul 19 - 11:26 AM (#4001757)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

We turn up spoiling to get the facts right, unlike you. Twice in this thread you've put up links that directly contradict assertions of yours you thought they were supporting. But you just keep digging. I prefer the links' versions of the facts personally. Still.

---

23 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM (#4001764)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Shaw your stupidity is your problem, not mine. bysie bye

---

23 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM (#4001771)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Persia or Iran? a view from wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Iran

---

23 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM (#4001774)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

Iains is nearer the mark than the people arguing with him. Mossadegh was the nearest thing to a democratically elected ruler with the country's interests at heart that Iran has had yet.

I wonder if I've met their current president. He was a postgrad in Glasgow when I was living there. Seems a great deal saner than Trump or Johnson, not that that's much of an achievement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23554836

The people in my band call their music Persian, their language either Persian or Farsi, and their country Iran. The choice of words doesn't code any particular ideology.

---

23 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM (#4001780)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: robomatic

I've heard the language spoken by a native. It is beautiful.

I've always been a bit askance that I was ignorant of the CIA putsch over Mossadegh until the turn of the millenium when All the Shah's Men was published. I'd gone to a university with many Iranian students, whom I often ate with since I lived in an International House. They tried to teach me Farsi tongue twisters. I'm positive that every one of them knew about Mossadegh's overthrow.

Nevertheless, the Ayatollah was way worse than the Shah, and his inheritors are no better than he was.

---

23 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM (#4001784)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

The nearest thing was a long way from the real thing. He was appointed. As for arguing with Iains, what we actually want is some truthfulness from him and for him to display a yet-to-be-discovered ability to actually address challenges to him instead of going off half-cock on another track, scattering insults as he goes. There's plenty of that already in this short thread.

---

23 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM (#4001785)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

Look at the figures for economic opportunity and public health.

The Islamic regime has been a VAST improvement on the Shah. Particularly in equality of opportunity for women.

---

23 Jul 19 - 12:46 PM (#4001787)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

Is Iran in 2019 a place where young people can sing and dance and love freely...???

Let's not let our admiration for the trad culture and music of the region,
lend too rosy a tint to our glasses.....

---

23 Jul 19 - 01:01 PM (#4001790)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

No need for a rosy tint, but Jack definitely has a point. And what the West serially fails to comprehend is that countries that we serially shit on, via sanctions and arming their enemies in order to fight proxy wars thousands of miles from our own countries, not to speak of ousting their governments in order to install our puppets, builds resentment and retaliation. Iran is a prime example. If we trade freely and cooperate with them, their prosperity will increase as their belligerence decreases. After all, we are pretty good at holding our noses in order to do business with despicable regimes in China and Saudi...

---

23 Jul 19 - 01:08 PM (#4001791)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

When I first arrived in Singapore in 1973 many of my immediate colleagues had previously worked in Iran. A school friend worked in Khorramshahr for Price Waterhouse for several years over the same timeframe.Back then under the Shah an expat lifestyle was reckoned to be superior to that in Singapore. For the politically active the reality was very different, savak was an organisation that would put the fear of God up anyone. (but political activism can cause trouble in any country if against the establishment, the UK not excluded)
Conversely Women were liberated under the Shah and miniskirts a common sight in the major cities. Two sentence soundbites can hardly do justice to such a complex subject. Mossadeq is regarded in a positive light, the Shah less so, and the reign of the Ayatollahs seems to have sent aspects of society back to the stone age. I see no point in arguing over minutae unless authoring a book on the subject. I stand by my broad brush depiction, tempered as it is by personally related anecdotes from the later years of the Shah.

---

23 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM (#4001793)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Better make that minutiae before the pedant pounces.
A bit more history written by an exile

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/iran-must-not-be-plunged-again-into-the-nightmare-of-conflict-1.3938244

Womens Rights

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48a8/956aac1c84359c63ff06be647c642fab758d.pdf

---

23 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM (#4001796)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

Hello relatively sensible Iains who sounds like he lead a very interesting life...

You seem like a bloke worth getting to know,
unlike that intolerant fanatic who shares your same name...

---

23 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM (#4001797)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

What has happened to Irsin since the revolution it totally irrelevant - I don't think anybody is defending this or any religion based state
The suggestion was that "Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
It was crap and it remains crap
Some reforms were brought about by a liberally inclined leader, but reforms within a dictatorship does not begin to approach democracy
Jim Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM (#4001799)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

(on hsi past record, Ian's has poured hared and scorn on the types of reforms brought about by Mosaddegh
We really have been here before
Jim Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 02:07 PM (#4001804)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Did you really wire houses the same way you conduct yourself on this forum? Were you simply a sparky or raging pyromaniac? No wonder you scuttled away to the furthest recesses of Ireland

Of course asking you to prove your last allegations is a wasted effort.
Over the last three years at least you have managed to deliberately distort everything I have said and post a pack of lies. You are a fool, a disgrace and inveterate troublemaking liar.
Go on. Prove me wrong!

(on hsi past record, Ian's has poured hared and scorn on the types of reforms brought about by Mosaddegh
As hopelessly inaccurate as your spelling laddie


Throughout Mossadegh's career, he strove to increase the power the people held versus the power of the crown. In 1952, he was granted emergency powers by the Majlis which he used to diminish the amount of power the Shah held at the time. He used these powers to place the control of the armed forces under the government, to decrease the size of the armed forces, and introduce land reforms with a more socialist approach.

---

23 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM (#4001807)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"Did you really wire houses the same way you conduct yourself on this forum?"
A string off mindless insults is no replaacement for an intelligent response and only serves to underline your inability to respond
You reputation goes before you which is why you are universally recognised for what you are and what you stand for are
The fact that you need to resort to your old racism shows only your inability to control your behaviour
And a typo - surely not - we really are lost for words, aren't we ?
Denying past behaviour with more of the same really is something else !!
Go find a passing schoolgirl to bully - your blustering shit impresses no-one here
Jim Carroll

---

23 Jul 19 - 04:33 PM (#4001811)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: robomatic

Jack Campin writted:

Look at the figures for economic opportunity and public health.

The Islamic regime has been a VAST improvement on the Shah. Particularly in equality of opportunity for women.

That rings true with your penchant for assassination: Here's one female who was 'liberated'

---

23 Jul 19 - 04:57 PM (#4001819)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Well ignoring the resident buffoon we can move on.
A potted history of Iran/Persia since Reza Khan

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/middle_east-jan-june10-timeline
I draw your attention to below:
1951
Nationalist Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq attempts to nationalize the British-owned oil industry. The shah opposes Mossadeq and removes him from power, but he regains power and the shah leaves Iran.

Now if the Prime Minister removes the Shah from power this makes absolute nonsense of the assertion above " but reforms within a dictatorship does not begin to approach democracy
Jim Carroll"
I have given multiple sources indicating that the great wide world regarded the period during which Mossadeq was premier he presided over a democracy. No one has stated it was perfect but it was not a dictatorship at that time.

Life under the Shah was by no means as repressive as portrayed.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/shah-of-iran-before-1979
The above link also explains much of the subsequent bad feeling towards the US(and west)
In a nutshell the US view that all nations had a "right to self-determination".was fine until it came to oil. Then subsequent Machiavellian games have caused havoc in the middle east and killed millions
Iran Iraq war estimated 1,000,000
Coalition Iraq war/s 600,000 (some report 2.4 million)
Libya, Sudan, toll unknown
An intro to the games played.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/04/george-hw-bush-saudi-arabia-donald-trump
Over a period of 35 years, having worked from Egypt to Eritrea back through the Yemen, Oman, Quatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, Syria and flying visits to Saudi I can state there ain't one of them gets even close to being democratic. Iran managed to get far closer to being a true democracy than any nearby countries and this was prevented by thoroughly documented outside interference. The present standoff between Iran and the west needs to be looked at in context historically, the rights and wrongs are not as simplistic as the mainstream media would have you suppose.

---

24 Jul 19 - 01:18 AM (#4001841)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Ebbie

A man I know left Iran some time ago but is still very attached to it even though he prefers the USA. He seems to be a very private kind of man but little by little I am getting to hear his story. So far I know that he was in the military there and because he knew some English they frequently called upon him. He would like to visit there but once he said that he'd probably end up dead.

He very much disapproves of The US policy in re Iran or lack of it. He believes that Iran is doing only what it must do in order to survive.

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:49 AM (#4001844)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"Well ignoring the resident buffoon we can move on."
As you have ignored the fact that, far from being the democracy you claim Persia was (your description), until the revolution, it was a dictatorship where the reforms you describe could be removed at the whim of the hereditary dictator
The reformer Mossadeq was removed from office by the Shah, with the co-operation of the US and the CIA - a description here.

"The plot, known as Operation Ajax, centered on convincing Iran's monarch to issue a decree to dismiss Mosaddegh from office, as he had attempted some months earlier. But the Shah was terrified to attempt such a dangerously unpopular and risky move against Mosaddegh. It would take much persuasion and many U.S. funded meetings, which included bribing his sister Ashraf with a mink coat and money, to successfully change his mind.

Mosaddegh became aware of the plots against him and grew increasingly wary of conspirators acting within his government.[59] According to Dr. Donald N. Wilber, who was involved in the plot to remove Mossadegh from power, in early August, Iranian CIA operatives pretending to be socialists and nationalists threatened Muslim leaders with "savage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh," thereby giving the impression that Mossadegh was cracking down on dissent earlier than planned, and stirring anti-Mossadegh sentiments within the religious community.[60] A referendum to dissolve parliament and give the prime minister power to make law was submitted to voters, and it passed with 99 percent approval, 2,043,300 votes to 1300 votes against.[61] According to Mark J. Gasiorowski, "There were separate polling stations for yes and no votes, producing sharp criticism of Mosaddeq" and that the "controversial referendum...gave the CIA's precoup propaganda campaign to show up Mosaddeq as an anti-democratic dictator an easy target".[62] On or around 16 August, Parliament was suspended indefinitely, and Mosaddeq's emergency powers were extended.

Overthrow
In August 1953, the Shah finally agreed to Mossadegh's overthrow, after Roosevelt said that the United States would proceed with or without him,[63] and formally dismissed the prime minister in a written decree, an act that had been made part of the constitution during the Constitution Assembly of 1949, convened under martial law, at which time the power of the monarchy was increased in various ways by the Shah himself.[64] As a precautionary measure, he flew to Baghdad and from there hid safely in Rome. He actually signed two decrees, one dismissing Mosaddegh and the other nominating the CIA's choice, General Fazlollah Zahedi, as Prime Minister. These decrees, called Farmans, were specifically written as dictated by Donald Wilber, the CIA architect of the plan, and were designed as a major part of Wilber's strategy to give legitimacy to the coup, as can be read in the declassified plan itself, which bears his name.
Tehran strongman Shaban Jafari played a major role in Mossadegh's overthrow.
Soon, massive popular protests, aided by Roosevelt's team, took place across the city and elsewhere with tribesmen at the ready to assist the coup. Anti- and pro-monarchy protesters, both paid by Roosevelt,[63] violently clashed in the streets, looting and burning mosques and newspapers, leaving almost 300 dead. The pro-monarchy leadership, chosen, hidden and finally unleashed at the right moment by the CIA team, led by retired army General and former Minister of Interior in Mosaddegh's cabinet, Fazlollah Zahedi joined with underground figures such as the Rashidian brothers and local strongman Shaban Jafari, to gain the upper hand on 19 August 1953 (28 Mordad). The military joined on cue: pro-Shah tank regiments stormed the capital and bombarded the prime minister's official residence, on Roosevelt's cue, according to his book. Mosaddegh managed to flee from the mob that set in to ransack his house, and, the following day, surrendered to General Zahedi, who was meanwhile set up by the CIA with makeshift headquarters at the Officers' Club. Mosaddegh was arrested at the Officers' Club and transferred to a military jail shortly after. On 22 August, the Shah returned from Rome.

Zahedi's new government soon reached an agreement with foreign oil companies to form a consortium and "restore the flow of Iranian oil to world markets in substantial quantities", giving the United States and Great Britain the lion's share of the restored British holdings. In return, the US massively funded the Shah's resulting government, until the Shah's overthrow in 1979.[67]

As soon as the coup succeeded, many of Mosaddegh's former associates and supporters were tried, imprisoned, and tortured. Some were sentenced to death and executed.[68] The minister of foreign affairs and the closest associate of Mosaddegh, Hossein Fatemi, was executed by order of the Shah's military court. The order was carried out by firing squad on 29 October 1953.[69]

Trial and final years
Mossadegh under house arrest in Ahmadabad
On 21 December 1953, Mossadegh was sentenced to three years' solitary confinement in a military prison, well short of the death sentence requested by prosecutors. After hearing the sentence, Mossadegh was reported to have said: "The verdict of this court has increased my historical glories. I am extremely grateful you convicted me. Truly tonight the Iranian nation understood the meaning of constitutionalism."

Mossadegh was kept under house arrest at his Ahmadabad residence, until his death on 5 March 1967. He was denied a funeral and was buried in his living room, despite his request to be buried in the public graveyard, beside the victims of the political violence on 321st July 1951"

I have little doubt that the above fits Iain's description of democracy, but I doubt if it does anybody elses

A regime such as that of The Shah, backed up by the CIA, is as far from democracy as you can get as far as I am concerned.

None of this is it suggest that what replaced the Shah's dictatorship was Democracy, but, had the self-interested interference of the US not been a factor, it might have been
The U.S. Co-OPERATED WITH THE COUP - Khomeni was even chosen as 'Man of the Year' for the cover of Time Magazine
True to form, the White House backed off when they realised the new leaders weren't going to dance to thir tune

A Shah's demovracy, my arseum
Jim Carroll

---

24 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM (#4001853)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Glad to see you attempted to understand my comprehensive links.
It is patently clear your efforts failed.
Now stop trying to pick fights and behave yourself.
How many times do you need telling. You are becoming nothing but a vexatious troll.

"Soon, massive popular? protests, aided by Roosevelt's team, took place across the city"
Are you Goebbels toyboy? You been taken by the propaganda hook line and sinker.

Go find a few Iranians to agree with your perverted version of history.
Perhaps you rely on the Dandy and Beano as your source.

---

24 Jul 19 - 04:26 AM (#4001854)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

There can be no democracy with a hereditary dictator prepared to use torture and murder in charge, which was what the Shah's regime was
You poured the same disdain on the documented version of Syria's history, even after Assad bombed his people with chemicals sold to him by Britain
Your cowardly bullying from the safety of anonymity has no place here
You have a fully documented history of what happened in Iran there, not carefully selected snippets to suit your twisted right wing politics
A BIT MORE TO DISMISS OUT OF HAND - AS YOU WILL
A BIT MORE
Jim Carroll

---

24 Jul 19 - 08:55 AM (#4001862)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

Well that's all a bit too much to try reading on the bog..
Or ever anywhere else for that matter...

So has Iran ever been a particularly nice place to live and try to express yourself
If you are just an ordinary citizen...???

---

24 Jul 19 - 09:59 AM (#4001875)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Charmion

Not in living memory, Friend Punk.

---

24 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM (#4001881)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: robomatic

Persepolis

---

24 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM (#4001882)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

The opportunity to support the Arab peoples in developing their countries into democracies was thrown away when, instead o encouraging the Arab Spring, the first response by Britain was to trip over its own feet by trying to sell arms to those whose despotic behaviour was being protested against
Protestors in Syria were herded into Assad's torture chambers (later to be 'disappeared') with the aid of British riot control equipment and armoured cars.
Many of these countries were formerly colonies and were left in the teder care of 'safe pairs of hands' when their masters were driven out.
Iran was never colonized by European powers, but this did not protect it from the colonial reach of the United Kingdom. In the late nineteenth century, the British-India Company had established a monopoly over tobacco trade in Iran, at the expense of the local merchant class.
THE WEALTHY WEST REALLY HAS NOTHING TO BE SMUG ABOUT
Jim Carroll

---

24 Jul 19 - 11:16 AM (#4001889)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

Jimmie has totally lost the plot and off on a rant again. This continuous cyber stalking of his must be taking its toll.
I will have to show him a map. Iran and Syria are two different countries. They do not even have any common border. Now you have introduced Assad, howsabout Israel, travellers, the grenfell tower fire and uncle Tom Cobley and all?
If my statements are backed up by multiple sources why do you insist on trying to prove me wrong.
. If all you want to do is fight, go somewhere else - but stop clogging Mudcat with your ridiculously petty squabbles.

---

24 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM (#4001891)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

The pair of you together bickering across pub tables
would ruin the night out for most other drinkers...

Though a minority with bizarre tastes in entertainment
might take perverse enjoyment in watching
you squabble all night...

---

24 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM (#4001895)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"The pair of you together bickering across pub tables"
Would you rather I responded to his extremist idiocy politely, as you do, PFR ?
Sorry, - much rather help his expose himself for the nasty piece of work he is.
He may ignore the information put up but I can only hope others don't
What did you do in the war Dayyy !!
Jim Carroll

---

24 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM (#4001896)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

Jim - yes that's me .. Mr Politeness...

WE know what he is up to, most innocent bystanders can see what games he plays...

I prefer brevity of sarcasm and insults..
short sharp to the point like a good classic punk song...

Not boring half hour long prog-rock tracks.. or marathon trad folk ballads...

On that note...
I haven't a clue what this is about or where it was recorded...
or whatever happened top the singer...???

TNA - Khomeini ( 1980's Iran Hardcore Punk )

---

24 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM (#4001897)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

to..

---

24 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM (#4001907)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"I prefer brevity of sarcasm and insults.. "
Water off a duck's back if you've only got the brains of a duck
Punk always gave me a headach which is why I avoided it
Thanks for making my point with your link - much prefer the marathon trad folk ballads
Jim

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM (#4001910)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

If I was a teddy boy, you could say I had the arse of a duck...

Now to find some 1950s Iranian rock 'n' roll...

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM (#4001911)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Souks

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM (#4001912)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Souks

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM (#4001914)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

Stoukings...???

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:22 PM (#4001915)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Shisha?

---

24 Jul 19 - 02:27 PM (#4001916)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

BBC 2014 - "Illegal" rock group from Iran


sorry.. not 1950s.. I'll keep looking for an Iranian Elvis...

---

24 Jul 19 - 06:17 PM (#4001935)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Thompson

Shappi Kharsandi (sp?) has a very funny memoir about growing up in an exiled Iranian family.

---

25 Jul 19 - 04:37 AM (#4001967)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw

She's my favourite!

---

25 Jul 19 - 05:47 AM (#4001972)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

Dunno about punk under Khomeini, but there was some pretty good political folk rock in the 70s. A friend of mine was a supporter of the Fedai (one of the Communist parties) and had a fair bit of it. I couldn't name any performers though.

The highest profile oppositional musician today (at least, as seen from here) is probably Kayhan Kalhor. But the music that will be having an effect internally will be harder to find - I can ask. But I'm more interested in the traditional stuff anyway.

---

25 Jul 19 - 06:38 AM (#4001980)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

Some of the best music from the area I've ever heard (particularly from Kurdish Iran) was issue on Argo Records
Compared to the traditional music (as once described by Hindermitt of Classical music) they were "like the dripping of a tap".
Jim Carroll

---

25 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM (#4001989)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

Kurdish and Persian music are about as unrelated as Highland pipe marches and Yorkshire music hall songs. There are subgenres between each of them but they don't come within miles of overlapping. I can play a few Persian songs but Kurdish music is a totally different world.

There is an excellent shop for Iranian cultural stuff in Paris, www.utopiran.com - near the Porte de Clignancourt. I expect to drop in again next week. I think the people who run it are Zoroastrians but they don't push any obvious ideological line. Can't think of anything comparable in the UK, though we have enough resident Iranians and Iranophiles to make it viable.

---

25 Jul 19 - 09:16 AM (#4002000)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

They used to have a reasonably broad selection of 'international music' at the Horniman Museum in South East London in Jean Jenkin's days
Jim Carroll

---

25 Jul 19 - 09:41 AM (#4002004)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker

A recomended list of Iranian musical artists / youtube videos would be very welcome...

All styles from trad to pop...

I'd hope wiki would at least provide potted histories of various genres
of both govt sanctioned and oppositional musicians,
as follow up reading...

---

26 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM (#4002095)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"All styles from trad to pop..."
I think you are asking a bit much there PFK
Lists of all material don't happen like that
We have a large collection of International traditional material which I'm happy to share with anybody interested - including Iranian/Persian material
The Argo catalogue was once a reliable source for such material - probably no longer easily available, but still obtainable with searching
The Smithsonian/Folkways ethnic output has (I've been told), never been deleted and is still available on request, but I've never really found that as satisfying as Argo. with their detailed and comprehensible notes.
I would highly recommend Jean Jenkins's magnificent 'Music of Islam' on Tangent, for a categoriesed survey of music and singing, to anybody interested in an overview
Jim

---

26 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM (#4002096)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

I suspect Spotify would go a long way to providing what pfr wants, though I haven't used it for years. Once you get the hang of copy-pasting titles and names in scripts you can't read, you can go a long way. Just looking for all the different takes on "Morgh-e Sahar" you can find would give you an idea of the possibilities.

---

26 Jul 19 - 04:48 AM (#4002102)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

A handy overview, though about 20 years old now: the Middle East volume of the Garland Encyclopedia of World Music. Not sure if I've ever looked at the chapter on Iran but it's a reliable source written from an ethnomusicological perspective that doesn't privilege particular genres at the expense of others.

---

26 Jul 19 - 04:20 PM (#4002199)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: wysiwyg

I haven't read the whole thread because I so dislike wang-waving, but here's a story I'll be asking my bi-cultural friend about, because I never heard about it until now.

Excerpt: "...One of the little-known chapters of history was the widespread famine in Iran during World War I, caused by the British presence in Iran..."

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/2197/8-10-million-Iranians-died-over-Great-Famine-caused-by-the-British

---

26 Jul 19 - 06:11 PM (#4002208)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Stilly River Sage

I wouldn't be at all surprised by that, Susan.

---

26 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM (#4002210)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse

The Museum of Islamic Art (including plenty of Persian art) in Doha, Qatar, is excellent and, along with Souq Waqif, I spent most of my stopover there on an annual visit to see my family in Aus.

---

27 Jul 19 - 02:01 AM (#4002233)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin

The famine seems to have been bad but not that bad.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_famine_of_1917–1919

---

27 Jul 19 - 07:06 AM (#4002271)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

As with the Irish Famine, the results of which are now widely accepted as being avoidable, and by many, deliberate, it is not so much the disaster itself, but how it was handled which was the problem
There seems reasonable grounds to believe that THE BRITISH EMPIRE did play a major part in what happend and then covered up their behavior
Let's face it, it certainly wouldn't be the first time
Jim Carroll

---

28 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM (#4002369)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: David Carter (UK)

As much as it pains me to say it, Iains is largely right on this thread (not on any other I hasten to add). The present dispute with Iran is a continuation of a malaise in British-Iranian relations which has its roots in the overthrow of Mossadegh, and the toppling of democracy in Iran. And that in turn goes back to some decision made in some dusty corner of the Foreign Office, probably in the days of Lawrence of Arabia, that in the millenium old conflict between Shia and Sunni Islam we would be on the side of the Sunni. Despite not understanding this conflict at all. And the result is that the Sunni states have been very free with granting access to their oil, and Shia Iran has not. Hence Mossadegh had to go.

This is much more about oil, nuclear weapons are really a side issue.

For the record, my view on nuclear weapons is that nobody should have them.

---

28 Jul 19 - 05:39 AM (#4002373)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

"If the Irish famine was deliberate that would be genocide. "
It has been referred to in Ireland for as long as I can remember as "The Irish Holocaust" and the evidence of Sir Charles's Trevelyan's behaviour (the man appointed to distribute famine relief, who described the catastrophe as "God's punishment on the indolent Irish") which came to light some years ago confirms that description.
The Irish Famine was described publicly by leading British politicians as "the solution to 'The Irish Question" and the mass evictions and enforced migration of millions indicated a deliberate policy
All this in now widely documented
An unbiased History of Colonial Britain has yet to be written and is long overdue
Jim Carroll

---

28 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM (#4002377)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

I have no intention in re-entering into this discussion on the Irish Famine here - it's well covered elsewhere.

"For the record, my view on nuclear weapons is that nobody should have them."
Amen to that one

"Your link is simply that of a blogger,"
Saido teh feller who relies almost totally on Guido Fawkes.
The link is a commentary on a well researched book on the subject of the Persian Famine
It would be surprising if there were no opponents to that research - it took a century and a half to begin to discuss the Irish famine, during which period, only one book was written on a massive disaster which killed a million and drove another million fro their homes
That condemnatory book - was written by an Englishwoman
Some history is often a case of "what's been did and what's been hid"
Jim Carroll

---

28 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM (#4002384)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains

A well researched book-perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. The issue is the accuracy of the interpretations of the research within the book and the accuracy of the blogger trying to validate them. This is another issue entirely.
In a nutshell. Prior to the famine Iran was invaded on multiple fronts by multiple enemies. As a result of commandeering of both food and transport by invaders the indigenous population suffered. The death toll was heightened by a drought, causing bad harvests, and the spread of disease, The death toll was further exacerbated by the flu pandemic.
Singling out the British Empire as the sole cause betrays a singular lack of basic scholarship.
The occupation of north and south Iran by Russian and British troops prompted the Ottomans to invade western and north-western Iran early in the war. If we add to this list of adversities the subversion of German agents who were also active, especially in the south, we start to get a more complete picture of Iran’s position in the war.
n 30 October 1918, the Armistice of Mudros was concluded with the Ottoman Empire, and in Istanbul the cabinet of the Committee of Union and Progress resigned. Ahmed Izzet Pasha (1864-1937) formed his new cabinet, and called on all Ottoman troops to return home. Yet the departure of foreign troops from Iran – first the Russians, then the Ottomans – did not strengthen the Iranian government. The population was impoverished, the economy was ruined and almost bankrupt, and the treasury coffers were empty. Soon the government was besieged by centrifugal forces, because regional protest movements began to challenge the status quo. In the northern provinces of Azer­baijan, Gilan and Khorasan, there were reform-minded and revolutionary in­dividuals who believed that, if they could succeed in launching cam­paigns to initiate change in their own region, the same reforms would gradually spread through the rest of the country.
in this turbulent post-war era neither the national government nor foreign powers were in a position to do much to alleviate the human crises.
Beyond deaths from starvation, epidemics also killed many people. The colossal food crisis, plus large numbers of soldiers, refugees and destitute people constantly on the move in search of work and survival, facilitated a deadly combination of pandemics and contagious diseases.

Sadly starvation and disease are a frequent accompaniment to war, and embargoes add to the death toll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_Manna_and_Chowhound
Famine and lack of a reliable food supply are threatening the lives of approximately 80 million people — more than half of them children — in South Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria and Yemen, and in nine additional countries across Africa and the Middle East and most of them are at war or have been recently.

and in these more enlightened times the death toll is more selective by imposing embargoes and sanctions.

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/mar/04/weekend7.weekend9
With the last link it is very very difficult to obtain accurate figures to either prove or disprove Pilgar's assertions (another view.)

---

28 Jul 19 - 07:47 AM (#4002386)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll

I firmly believe that many of todays world problems are a hangover from the Empire, and the question of what the empires left behind
The Persian one is a new one on me, but elsewhere we have covered the horrors of The Congo following King Leopold's atrocities, and the ongoing racist Some of us would prefer you kept reference to the irish famine exclusively to irish famine threads, there you can expound on your perverted view of history to your heart's content.problems caused by immigration from former colonies
The old Empires were left in a deplorable mess by their former masters, and that mess was compounded by a deliberate policy to leave the former colinies "safe" - (read manipulable) hands
The consequences of leaving despots in charge have led to mass suffering, starvation, and now a massive itinerant world population seeking refuge from despotim and better lives
That is why questions like Ireland, arms sales, oil, immigration.... all merge into one during these debates...., they are all out of the same stable
I have little doubt that other atrocities like the handling of the Irish and Persian Famines are yet to emerge
Jim Carroll

---

29 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM (#4002575)
Subject: RE: Persians
From: Mrrzy

I have the feeling, from talking to maybe a dozen individuals over a couple of decades, that folks who call themselves Persian here (Mrrica) do so to avoid what being labeled as Iranian brings. I think they take advantage of our general ignorance that way... Smart... And avoid a lot of bigotry. Iran has an arguably well-deserved reputation for antiMrrican terrorism.

---