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20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM (#4009699) Subject: Folklore: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll Advice please I've been gathering examples of Irish versions of Child Ballads for some time now and have extended my search to the US and Canada The N.E. States of the US have proved a goldmine, but I'm having some difficulty with the Canadian/Newfoundland ones Helen Creighton, Edith Fowke and Maud Karpeles mention in their collections that many of their singers came from Ireland, but seldom identify which they are - likewise Trevor Peacock Any idea who I might contact for such information or Journals I might consult ? I think the editor of 'The Canadian Folk Song Journal' once posted to this site - I'm not even sure it still exists Any help would be much appreciated and earn them a seat at the right hand of... name your traditional song hero Thanks in anticipation Jim Carroll |
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20 Sep 19 - 09:09 AM (#4009704) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Charmion Try Shelley Posen. If he doesn’t know, he knows who does. |
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20 Sep 19 - 09:18 AM (#4009706) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship See if this is any help: http://gestsongs.com/indexnav.htm |
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20 Sep 19 - 12:13 PM (#4009722) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship The following link has nothing to do with your request, Jim, but I thought you'd find it of interest. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-irish-dictionary-updated?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page&fbclid=IwA |
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20 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM (#4009725) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll Many thanks all The readiness of people to help on this forum never fails to impress me Don't know about Shelley Posen, but I'll look him up The Peacock site is very interesting - will search that thoroughly later (I ment to write Kenneth Peacock, of course I'm mmaking my way through Maud Karpeles Folk Songs of Newfoundland at present - a number of fine ballads there, though, like the others, she refes to Irish singers rather than identifying them I wonder if anybody has a contact number or information on David Gregory, who wrote a superb account of her Newfoundland trip (availabke as PDF on line) Thanks again Jim |
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20 Sep 19 - 01:19 PM (#4009726) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Pseudonymous E David Gregory, the academic, is of English origin, English educated at Keele University, and now a Canadian Citizen. He is excellent on A L Lloyd. There are two long essays by him on that topic online. He has a web site at Athabasca University. If you use google, you will find an email address for him on that University web site. |
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20 Sep 19 - 01:34 PM (#4009729) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship davidg at athabascau dot ca Squeeze it all together as one 'word'. |
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20 Sep 19 - 02:50 PM (#4009735) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll Thanks amillion Never ceases ..... Jim |
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20 Sep 19 - 04:23 PM (#4009745) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship There is a reasonably good overview in the Canadian Encyclopedia. Takes about five minutes to read: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/ballads-emc |
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21 Sep 19 - 02:30 AM (#4009778) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll This is great, it'already helping me work through the collections I have Jim |
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21 Sep 19 - 08:25 AM (#4009805) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship Jim, if I may be of assistance in terms of looking for information regarding specific Child ballads, please say so. I understand there are 305 of them according to this Wikipedia link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Child_Ballads If you'd like me to look into specific ones to see if there's a Canadian context/history, just point, ok? Many thanks. |
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21 Sep 19 - 09:53 AM (#4009813) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jeri The sticky part is that he's looking for Irish versions of the Child Ballads. You know, the English and Scottish popular ballads. So is it the songs in Irish, or the songs that have come to Canada from Ireland, or ???. |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:12 AM (#4009816) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship I am unable to create a link to the following, but if you copy and paste the following into Google it will take you there. It is entitled THE CHILD BALLAD IN CANADA: A SURVEY1 LAUREL DOUCETTE and COLIN QUIGLEY (I cannot find a publication date. However, it is likely post-1976.) file:///C:/Users/User1/Downloads/21820-Article%20Text-32314-1-10-20140513%20(1).pdf |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:14 AM (#4009817) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll "So is it the songs in Irish" Sorry Jeri I meant English language version which established themselves in Ireland As far as I know there are only five Child Ballads in Irish - it was thought there were only four but I think I've added a fifth Jim |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:19 AM (#4009821) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Vic Smith Good point - I would have thought that most Child ballads collected in Canada were of Scots or Irish origin but that it would be difficult often to tell from which of the two. I would like to mention Raymond's Folk Song Page. It is not a primary source but there are number of sources suggested for each ballad that would be worth following up. It does mention Joe Estey of New Brunswick and his performance of Hind Horn which is very near the top of my all-time favourites of ballads performed by traditional singers. |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:25 AM (#4009824) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship One more thing: Another area to check into are Upper Canada (present-day Ontario); Lower Canada (present-day Quebec; Northwest Territories; and possibly St Pierre and Miquelon, which despite being a 'collectivity' of France is just spitting distance from Newfoundland. (These are "notes to self" so I don't forget.) |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:32 AM (#4009825) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Vic Smith I meant English language version which established themselves in Ireland This brings Jim up against another problem. There are ballads from The British Isles collected in Canada which seem to have disappeared from these islands. Off the top of my head, I can think of The Rose Of Britain's Isle (Laws N16) and The Plains of Waterloo (Roud 960 ; Laws N32). Yes, neither are Child ballads but they exemplify the lost-in-Britain process. |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM (#4009828) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll Many more than those Vic In fact the English brought a load of songs to Canada Philip Donellan made a fascinating two-part programme entitled 'Passage West' the second of which dealt with the migrations from Britain - The Potteries sticks in mind My aim is solely around Child Ballads, but there's a few lifetimes to be spent on tracing the songs If anybody is interested, Helen Hartness Flanders's site has loads of songs which went to the N.E. States of America The quality isn't great but they're well worth the effort As far as Iruish Child ballads go, one of her main singers, Mrs Sullivan (originally from Cork) sang sixteen of them One of the weirdest finds was an version of 'The Broom of Cowdenknowes" learned in Irelandjust after the Famine This has been a real voyage of discovery Jim |
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21 Sep 19 - 10:55 AM (#4009830) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jeri Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I agree with Charmion, who suggested contacting Shelley Posen. |
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21 Sep 19 - 11:30 AM (#4009839) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: meself Bit of a correction to an earlier post: 'Lower Canada' was present-day Quebec - not the North-West Territories, nor St. Pierre & Miquelon. |
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21 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM (#4009840) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll "Shelley Posen." Thanks to both of you for that I'd never heard of him and have just looked him up - he sounds just the source I'm looking for I've now got an e-mail address and will contact him as soon as- Jim |
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21 Sep 19 - 11:36 AM (#4009842) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: meself Btw, in the 1980s, I encountered the tail-end of an English-language ballad tradition among Scottish-Metis in Manitoba, including Barbara Allan, Gay Spanish Maid, Lake of Coolfinn(?), and others, among songs and ballads with North American origins. Anne Lederman would have recorded more of this than I did; presumably she had these archived somewhere official. |
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21 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM (#4009843) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: GUEST,Starship Good clarification, meself. Thanks. |
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21 Sep 19 - 12:17 PM (#4009848) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Jim Carroll Messages now sent to Shelley Posen and David Gregory Everything crossed Jim |
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03 Oct 19 - 04:40 PM (#4011778) Subject: RE: Irish Child Ballads in Canada From: Steve Gardham Jim, I have a reference to Child Ballads found in Ireland in Notes and Queries for July to December 1885, p223. It's by W F Prideaux a regular contributor, and refers to Lamkin, The Two Sisters and The Grey Cock. I know you will have versions of these but the references might be useful. I can send you a copy if you wish. |