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BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles

01 Feb 20 - 04:59 AM (#4031492)
Subject: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Ed

'Seth Lakeman's Folk Map of the British Isles' starts tonight on BBC Radio 2 at 9pm.

No doubt there will be the naysayers who moan about leaving x,y, or z out and how they could have done it far better themselves. I thought some may be interested though.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dz9c

"Seth Lakeman takes us on a whirlwind tour of the folk and traditional music of the British Isles, exploring the distinct sounds of different regions.

In this four part series, English fiddle player Seth Lakeman takes a look at the folk music found in Scotland, England, Wales, and Ireland, talking to some of its greatest proponents and asking what makes each tradition distinct.

In this first episode, Seth heads to Scotland. He hears from fellow fiddle player John McCusker, Gaelic harpist Rachel Newton, accordion player Phil Cunningham, folk singer Karine Polwart, Celtic Connections Festival organizer Donald Shaw, young folk artist Iona Fyfe, and host of the BBC Radio 2 Folk Show Mark Radcliffe. They discuss their favourite Scottish songs and tunes and the elements that comprise Scotland’s sonic identity."

01 Feb 20 - 05:46 AM (#4031498)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Thanks for that. Apart from the Christmas edition, I've given up my order for Radio Times - so little space is devoted to radio.

We should welcome this, I suppose. Is it intended to be entertainment (Radio 2) or education (Radio 4)? Do the two stations co-ordinate their output?

It's an hour long, so we should get some conversation plus some tunes and songs. Would an hour-long concert be more enjoyable, I wonder.

01 Feb 20 - 05:55 AM (#4031501)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST, henryp

And episode two;

In this second episode Seth’s focus is on England. He hears from Yorkshire folk singers Eliza Carthy and Fay Hield, Oxford-based Jackie Oates, self-styled Wessex Boy Frank Turner, Devonian artists Geoff Lakeman and Steve Knightly, Cornish shanty singers Fisherman’s Friends, London folk singers Sam Sweeney and Lisa Knapp, Jethro Tull’s Ian Anderson, The Oysterband’s John Jones, fiddle player Sam Lee, and actor and music fan Martin Freeman. They discuss their favourite English songs and the sounds that give English music its identity.

01 Feb 20 - 06:03 AM (#4031503)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

Yep, gimme a concert. I won't be tuning in.

01 Feb 20 - 06:06 AM (#4031504)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST, henryp

And episode three;

In this third episode Seth focuses on Wales, the land of song. He hears from Welsh harpist Catrin Finch, singer-songwriter Martyn Joseph, folk singer Gwilym Bowen Rhys, Iolo Whelan of Pendevig, fiddle player Oliver Wilson Dickson, singer Gwyneth Glyn, and five-piece band Calan. They discuss Welsh music and the elements that make up its sonic identity.

01 Feb 20 - 10:15 AM (#4031547)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Gardham

Don't like the 'whirlwind tour' approach.

01 Feb 20 - 10:53 AM (#4031553)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

I agree.. them thoughtless irresponsible younger folkies whirlwinding about all over the place
on their speeding mobility scooters...

What we want is an almost stand-still snails pace hobbling about on a zimmer frame folk tour...

01 Feb 20 - 11:49 AM (#4031559)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

pfr, to do justice to the title ,this is more a case of thoughtless radio producers, here is an opportunity to produce an indepth programme, which it probably will not be, but even a flawed programme must be better than none at all

01 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM (#4031568)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Mr Red

well I have set the recorder, because I am a participator and tonight is Stroud Ceilidhs and subsequent Saturdays will be French/Irish Set/Cajun/you get the idea.. I will be enjoying it whatever. Mind you, it is background music to my happytapping, archiving Ghost Signs, or Milestones/Finger Posts/Boundary Stones, or tending my event listing site.

If it is half as good as his playing, then it will be well worth the listen IMNSHO.

01 Feb 20 - 01:40 PM (#4031585)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - yeah, agreed on all your points...

When the beeb suffers fully under this tory govt.
we'll be lucky to get 10 second soundbytes...

01 Feb 20 - 02:19 PM (#4031597)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Mark Radcliffe....why ?
Or can we guess which production company is behind it?

01 Feb 20 - 02:29 PM (#4031599)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

Oh fuck off, John MacKenzie.

Is there any love or positivity in your mean spirited comment?

See the original post in this thread.

01 Feb 20 - 05:30 PM (#4031638)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Well, the hour passed quite quickly. Some history, some established performers and some new ones. Some interesting items, some of no interest at all.

Next stop - England. I'm happy to tune in again.

01 Feb 20 - 05:36 PM (#4031642)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Richard Mellish

I've just started listening. Very early in the programme he refers to "one of my favourite ever Scottish folk acts". "Folk acts"? Are they not just a group of musicians? Or are they actors?

01 Feb 20 - 05:57 PM (#4031646)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

You are talking Lakepersons of Crapstone-in-Yelverton here...

Last time I saw those lads was in a street session in Wadebridge in 1993. They were still little nippers at the time. Met Geoff in our folk club at about the same time when Jinx's Stack were performing (worry not, Graham, I've lost the bodhran since then...) He had his concertina with him but I don't remember him playing.

01 Feb 20 - 08:20 PM (#4031661)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

"Oh fuck off, John MacKenzie.

Is there any love or positivity in your mean spirited comment?

See the original post in this thread."

Right. Let me just say this. Any arsehole can come here and make an anonymous post of this ilk. Yes, I get the argument that occasional leading lights, who don't necessarily want to commit themselves, can come here and contribute. But how often does that actually happen, and would they REALLY not bother posting if they had to do the honourable thing and sign in? I have my doubts.

We don't know who the bastard was who posted this. We get excommunicated people posting above the line in exactly the same mean-spirited and provocative style they employed as members. Akenaton shall remain nameless, for example. So why don't we change things for the better? Make everyone register and sign in. They can use their stupid sobriquets for all I care, but the very minimum should be that the moderators know exactly who they are and what their real names and emails are. Make that the minimum requirement of membership. You might lose a very few occasional big stars, but you'll lose a damn sight more confounded morons of the kind that posted the thing I quoted. Not my gig, of course.

02 Feb 20 - 07:42 AM (#4031735)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Thanks Steve. I purposely refrained from responding to that abusive post. I was not knocking the programme, I was asking what I consider a valid question, what has Mark Radcliffe got to do with Scottish folk music? That was all. I did go on to suggest that it might be connected to the production company, and that was all.
As far as the anonymity of the poster goes, moderators can see IP addresses, and will know who posted it. It is also their decision to let abusive posts remain, a decision I disagree with, as I think all abusive posts made anonymously, and maybe even known poster's contributions too, at times,should be deleted.

02 Feb 20 - 08:07 AM (#4031737)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

I don't think they can pin down anonymous guests, John. I've had this debate with the mods a number of times. For some crazy reason they seem to prefer the laissez-faire, wild west approach.

02 Feb 20 - 08:26 AM (#4031740)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Yes, and that last sentence, is why my brief career as a mod was cut short, at the insistence of one who shall remain nameless.

02 Feb 20 - 08:35 AM (#4031745)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

I never saw you as one who ran with the fox but hunted with the hound, John! ;-)

02 Feb 20 - 09:16 AM (#4031751)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Bonzo3legs

Seth's series is of little interest to me with no live music.

Anyway, BBC Radio Scotland put on live music from Celtic Connections - 2 hours last Wednesday on Travelling Folk, and 2 hours yesterday on Take the Floor. There is another 3 hours this evening from Scottish Young Trad award final and who knows what I've missed!!!

02 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM (#4031772)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA

Surprised that nobody yet has mentioned the use of the problematic term 'British Isles', which is sure to irk many in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere...

02 Feb 20 - 12:05 PM (#4031784)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

The producer is Tom Pooley for TBI Media.

A whirlwind tour of the folk and traditional music of the British Isles.

"the use of the problematic term 'British Isles', which is sure to irk many in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere..."

If the term irks anybody, it is likely to be someone from the Isle of Man. We shall see.

02 Feb 20 - 12:59 PM (#4031788)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,HIlo

Most of the "confounded morons" I have come across here have been neither Guests nor anonymous, but "signed in" members well known to us all.

02 Feb 20 - 01:14 PM (#4031789)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Don't bother me much anyway..

I'm a British folkie who aint too interested in Brit Folk and all the petty squabbles..

Not now since I've found so much far more interesting and stimulating East European Folk music
easily available on the internet...

02 Feb 20 - 02:27 PM (#4031800)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Ed

John MacKenzie,

May I offer my apologies for what you considered to be an abusive post. My use of a profanity was unnecessary and uncalled for.

I 'd started the initial thread because I thought people might have been interested to be aware about the programme.

As I expected and is the wont of many current Mudcat contributors, more people wanted to sneer than say thanks, and I perhaps mistakenly, put you under that same umbrella. I much regret that.

John and Steve,

It is extremely easy to change or hide your IP address, so if someone is intent to cause nastiness on this forum (I'm not), it's fairly worthless in terms of identifying them.

As for Steve's suggestion that

the very minimum should be that the moderators know exactly who they are and what their real names and emails are.

How would that work? Any fool can set up an email address under any name within a few minutes. As for knowing exactly who they are what are you suggesting?

Driving Licences, Passports, Birth Certificates, Credit Card details, Bank Statements?

Don't be ridiculous.

Ed

02 Feb 20 - 02:35 PM (#4031804)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Mudcat surveillance satellites and drones are getting more effective...

02 Feb 20 - 02:46 PM (#4031806)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: DaveRo

@GUEST.Ed Thanks for the OP. I still take the Radio Times (as henryp said, there is little space devoted to radio - but that's an infinite amount more than any other publication). But I rarely notice Radio2, so I welcome such posts.

@B2L - thanks for the tips on Radio Scotland too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tlyrt/episodes/player

As for the British Isles - well, see wikipedia.

02 Feb 20 - 04:14 PM (#4031818)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Sunday Radio Scotland

Now! 21.00-23.00 Grammy nominated violinist Tessa Lark is in town and joins Jamie hot on the heels of her performances at Celtic Connections. Plus fiddle player and composer Duncan Chisholm shares his My Music and Jamie has highlights from the Big Guitar Weekend recorded late last year.

23.00-01.00 Horse McDonald sits in for Iain Anderson
End the day in the company of the songwriting masters of country, folk, blues, soul and rock 'n' roll.

02 Feb 20 - 04:43 PM (#4031824)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Mr Red

The radio prog was all I wanted in radio. I learned some specific examples of Dylan's plundering of UK folksong. And heard some good music, evocative music, and one contentious concept of "80's Scottish popsong as folk". The case was made IMNSHO.

Give the guy a break, folk music is his life, he knows far more, but only has 4 hours to tell us anything. Not everything is going to be "my" choices, if it was I would already know, listen and learn! The next episodes will certainly contain nuggets, and as many.

02 Feb 20 - 05:34 PM (#4031833)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

From the Gaughan Forum rules (sadly defunct following Dick's ill-health):

No anonymous members.
It is a requirement of forum membership that you let the other members know who you are. There is not a single good reason in a forum of this kind for anonymity. If you are normally known by a nickname, by all means use it here; my birth name was Richard but the only people who ever use that are my parents (both dead) and my two sisters and their children. The no-anonymity rule is not here to check people's birth certificates, it is simply so that we all know who we're talking to and the risk of anonymous trolling is reduced. As said, by all means use a nickname on posts but please put your real name in your member profile and you will be asked to give it when registering.

From the Session help page:

Please use your own name

You can choose any name you want for your membership, but please don’t hide behind a pseudonym with any expectation of anonymity. The Session is not a place for making anonymous remarks.

No duplicate memberships

It’s strictly one membership per person here at The Session. Anyone caught faking a new membership will be expelled.

Remember, you can update your email address, name and other preferences from your member profile so you should have no reason to want more than one membership.

Right, Guest Ed (whoever you are)? Both the above websites operate/operated on broadly the same basis as this one. As far as I know, each has a single moderator. Each one tolerates, or tolerated, absolutely no shit whatsoever and they both run/ran their forums exceptionally smoothly, and the mods in question operated with a light touch. I am/was a member of both for many years and can heartily testify to that fact. I have been bollocked many times personally by Jeremy, not quite so many times by Molly. There are people on here, such as Bearded Bruce and Iains, who would not have lasted TWO MINUTES on either site given their demeanour here. Nothing is perfect and arseholes will always try to get round the system. Of course. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. We stopped uninvited guests from posting below the line. Until that happened, one bloke (for example) was posting under his pseudonym at the same time as posting as an unsigned guest in order to call a couple of us Jew-haters. I'm saying we should make registration and being signed-in a general rule for the whole site. I'm convinced that the ethos of this place would improve no end. I mean, sure, signed-in people can be massive vandals. But they get away with it because the moderators are overrun and can't read all the shite, and they know it. But stop the unsigned guests and make this place members-only and the members will militate against in-house transgressors. At Gaughan and The Session, we members follow the rules and we don't appreciate people who try not to. The multiple moderators here can't keep up, and they scrap among themselves. It's a recipe for the wild west, all of it. And it doesn't have to be this way.

Not my gig.

03 Feb 20 - 01:12 PM (#4031978)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

My that's a large wooden spoon you have there Hilo

03 Feb 20 - 05:10 PM (#4032022)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

As maps go it seems rather Brexitized.

A week ago I was in a session with 3 Scots, a Greek whondid American old-time and rembetiko, a Korean kayagum player and a Polish scat singer. I play in another session where we do Scottish, Irish, English, Balkan and klezmer. A full-on klezmer seasion next week and I practice weekly with a Middle Eastern group doing Greek, Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic and Persian material with native speakers for all of them. I meet people on buses carrying sitars and djembes around. I've heard our local Chinese orchestra and Japanese taiko group: I know how to find a group that holds classes in Kurdish Alevi music on the saz, though I haven't met them yet.

And the city records for Edinburgh 500 years ago show we were already paying Flemish, Italian, French, English and Romany performers a fair rate for the job.

The map needs a lot more colours in it.

03 Feb 20 - 05:13 PM (#4032023)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

In the last couple of days we've had HiLo, HIlo and Hilo...

03 Feb 20 - 05:32 PM (#4032029)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Cuthbert Lempriere Holthouse

"Look upon it, and weep"

03 Feb 20 - 06:50 PM (#4032040)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,HiLo

The post of Feb 3/ 20 was NOT me . I have not posted to this thread since Feb 2 at 9:04.
   The source should not be difficult to find. this place does get smaller and smaller, does it not ?

03 Feb 20 - 07:26 PM (#4032050)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

It would be a damn sight easier if everyone was registered and signed in. You can hardly complain, can you?

03 Feb 20 - 07:29 PM (#4032051)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

I could have sworn that I'd whimsically and inoffensively asked if Cuthbert was related to Cumberdick Bendybatch. Maybe that post didn't take...

03 Feb 20 - 09:39 PM (#4032061)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Lighter

I think Jabberwock Bandersnatch is the name you meant.

04 Feb 20 - 01:40 AM (#4032065)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,HiLo

You really are one-off the small people Steve. I seem to have struck a nerve. I was not complaining, I was clarifying.

04 Feb 20 - 01:46 AM (#4032067)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

just started listening the first scottish tune is known in ireland as the killarney boys of pleasure, music knows no borders

04 Feb 20 - 02:08 AM (#4032069)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

however the programme falls down by having too little tradtional folk musicians and too much revival musicians, with a little more understanding of the genre we could have had examples of west highland fiddle styles and other trsadtional styles[ no farquar macrae , plus the complte ignoring of jimmy shand is hard to believe

04 Feb 20 - 02:11 AM (#4032070)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

to understand the genre one has to go to its roots ,instead we get caledonia, what an opportunity missed.

04 Feb 20 - 02:15 AM (#4032071)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

here is an example of what should have been there angus granthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADyHCb8q7eM seth lakeman could have done better

04 Feb 20 - 02:17 AM (#4032072)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

oh no not feckin bob dylan ,jaysus christ

04 Feb 20 - 02:23 AM (#4032073)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

but good to hear scottish mouth music

04 Feb 20 - 02:37 AM (#4032074)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

good to hear Ewan MacColl.

04 Feb 20 - 03:41 AM (#4032084)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean

I heard that "Gaelic was another Scottish dialect, Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye was written in the 1920s and that Phil Cunningham was a regular in the Scotia".
What "facts" can I accept in future programs?

04 Feb 20 - 04:30 AM (#4032099)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: r.padgett

Lot of Scottish input to start with ~ no one asked my opinion on Yorkshire songs or Gardham ~ but the young thrusters and professional singers of course get to sing and are given their opinions ~ so be it

Ray

04 Feb 20 - 04:43 AM (#4032104)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

Roy , that is the problem ,because they are professional singers they are not necessarily best qualified to talk about the roots of the music.
I think LAKEMAN did acknowledge a little bit of scottish roots, and there was a very superficial discussion of style between east and west coast, but bob dylan and caledonia, i mean why not donald wheres your trousers if we are going to have cal;edonia

04 Feb 20 - 05:54 AM (#4032122)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

I have learned over the years that any programme with folk in its title will be a waste of my valuable time, so I won't be listening to this one either.

In a programme about Scottish music, the distortions of the truth mentioned by Jim McLean, the presence of Bob Dylan (!) & absence of Jimmy Shand just confirms my prejudice.

04 Feb 20 - 06:15 AM (#4032131)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

There is an argument for including "Caledonia" though I can't see the Beeb admitting it. It's become an anthem on independence rallies, dreich and mediocre though it is. I last heard it sung at the anti-Brexit rally outside the Scottish Parliament last Friday.

BUT it would have said more about the song's significance if they'd played a recording of a politicized crowd singing it rather than put Dougie Maclean's version on.

04 Feb 20 - 06:17 AM (#4032132)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

About 30 years ago I nearly accidentally caused a punch-up in a pub on Exmoor because of Donald Where's Your Troosers. That would have been good folklore. A story for another day...

04 Feb 20 - 09:49 AM (#4032179)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Hoots Mon..Lord Rockingham...

Better than most British folk music.. ever...!!!!!

you can Twist to it... [but probably best not wearing a kilt..]

04 Feb 20 - 07:46 PM (#4032279)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,big al whittle

Howard Coleman has run the Loughborough (Luger Barugah as Tim Hardin memorably called it) Acoustic Club since the year dot said something quite interesting on fb recently. Howard's Dad was a jazz player gigging well into his eighties.

Anyway - they're a Jewish family - I never realised til I went to his Dad's funeral, and they asked me to wear a hat. its traditional.

Howard was saying he regretted all the years he played blues, now that he was into klezmer music.

i think that's the nature of folk music. We're all on our own individual journeys. We might make use of the maps laid out for part of the way, but ultimately we're the 'folk' in question.

05 Feb 20 - 04:07 AM (#4032302)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Richard Mellish

Having read recent posts I'm glad I stopped listening when I did.

As for Caledonia; I have a very low opinion of that song because there's nothing in it that's specific to Scotland. You could change "Caledonia" to the name of any other country in the world and the song would make just as much (or just as little) sense.

And Gaelic a dialect? Well, the Gaelic (in English pronounced Gallic) of Scotland can be regarded as a dialect (or dialects?) of the Gaelic language, along with others from Man and different parts of Ireland; but is that what they meant?

05 Feb 20 - 05:02 AM (#4032307)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,big al whittle

well as a recent poster, sorry if I offended.

I recently decided to become a mudcat guest to prevent me venturing an opinion below the line, where the atmosphere of abuse is a bit too rich for me. Probably I'm getting too old to savour being called names.

As to Caledonia. i was in a duo with guy from Anstruther for about four years. Caledonia was a song we considered doing. he had a high opinion of the song and felt that certain grammatical constructions like 'steady thinking' were very typically Scottish.

Still if Caledonia is on the road - you don't care to take. that is entirely your right. Its up to you to forge your own compelling statement from the numerous traditions available in our islands.

05 Feb 20 - 05:07 AM (#4032308)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,bi al whittle

sorry meant to add this. so readers can put the lyrics under the semantic microscope.....

Caledonia Lyrics
I don't know if you can see, the changes that have come over me
In these last few days, I've been afraid that I might drift away
And I've been tellin old stories, singing songs
That made me think about where I came from
And That's the reason why I seem so far away today.
Chorus
Oh but let me tell you that I love you
And I think about you all the time
Caledonia your callin me and now I'm goin home
But if I should become a stranger
You know that it would make me more than sad
Caledonia you, ve been everythin I've ever had.

Well I've been moved, and I've kept on movin
Proved the points that I needed proovin
Lost the friends I needed loosin
Found others on the way
I have kissed the ladies and left them cryin
Stolen dreams yes there's no denying
Travelled hard with contience flyin
Somewhere with the wind
Repeat chorus
Now I'm sitting here, before the fire
The empty room the forest choir
Flames that couldn't get any higher
They've withered now there gone
But I'm steady thinking my way is clear,
And I know what I will do tomorrow
When the hands I've shaken and the kisses flown I will disappear.
Repeat chorus

06 Feb 20 - 05:03 AM (#4032497)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

very popular in Ireland, this song!- mayve via Dolores Keane having often sung it

06 Feb 20 - 06:36 AM (#4032503)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

oh.. so it's not the really good Caledonia I was thinking of...

"Walk with my baby
She got great big feet
She long, lean and lanky
An had nothin' to eat
She's my baby
I love her, just the same
Yeah an I'm crazy 'bout this woman cause
Caldonia..., is her name

Caldonia!
Caldonia!
Don't take your big head so hard?"

06 Feb 20 - 12:13 PM (#4032565)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Dave Sutherland

The Bob Dylan passage was totally spurious.
50+ years ago it was obvious that he had used the structure of “Lord Randal” for “Hard Rain’s A- Gonna Fall” however I would be very interested to learn the source of the declaration that “Banks of Sicily” was the inspiration for “Times They Are A ‘Changing”? Having read a fair number of books, of varying degrees of credibility, re the career of Bob Dylan over those 50+ years this is the first time I have been made aware of that item.
Can we expect a similar section next week citing “Lord Franklyn” or “Nottamun Town” as further sources for his songs?

06 Feb 20 - 04:31 PM (#4032633)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

yes my thoughts too Dave
however the producer probably does not know that"The Croppy Boy" is set to an old Irish air called "Cailin Og a Stor," which is at least 500 years old. This air also provides the music for the folksong "Lady Franklin's Lament" (also known as "Lord Franklin" or "Sailor's Dream"), upon which Bob Dylan based his song "Bob Dylan's Dream."
which is why i remarked earlier that professional revival singers are not necessartly the best people to discuss the roots of the music, a lot of them are occupied entirely with their own egos and perfomance

06 Feb 20 - 07:45 PM (#4032662)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Of course they've got an ego. Everyone should have, the definition of schizophrenia is someone whose ego periodically shatters and disappears.

Ego is just sense of self.
How can you have anything to express about your life if you have no sense of self. no sense of who you are.

Even if you sing exclusively traditional songs - surely they should be about your emotions. Not just a recital of words.

Its the difference between a performer and a speak your weight machine, or the lady in the satnav.

07 Feb 20 - 12:42 AM (#4032682)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Henry's Cat was worried about his weight, so stood on the I-speak-your-weight machine. "One at a time, please," said the machine-with-an-ego.

07 Feb 20 - 02:05 AM (#4032687)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

well it depends on the size of the ego eh, al, not everything is black and white there are shades of grey, however it does not alter the fact that revival performers are not necessarily the best people to discuss the roots of the music, there are exceptions like Carthy, folk scholars may be better qualified.
Seth lakeman and his producer have done a job that has flaws but could have been worse but some of the statements on the programme expose a lack of knowledge of the roots of the music.

07 Feb 20 - 02:58 AM (#4032691)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Mr Red

Methinks some posters should just preface with "what is Folk? this is what I call Folk" rather than nitpick on the minutia of what Folk surrounds them and will, in all inevitably, be considered & be discussed as authentic Folk when we are all vituperating in the great Mudcat in the sky.

Jimmy Shand is not here to expand on his take on Scottish Folk. His was dance music n'cest pas? I would have included dance in a programme, but on radio? Imagine the carping thereafter! The programme has to speak to a broad spectrum including, heaven forefend, armchair pundits. Still it has provided fodder for the angry mob.

07 Feb 20 - 03:35 AM (#4032696)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

jimmy shand was dance music that is what jigs reels etc are ,be they scottish or irish it is often referred to as tradtional instrumental music and most people call it folk music , he also popularised the music including his only top 20 hit in the UK Singles Chart – "The Bluebell Polka" (1955 .Since the 1950s the crowd at Dunfermline Athletic F.C. have left the ground after the game to the sound of Shand's "The Bluebell Polka"

07 Feb 20 - 03:43 AM (#4032699)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

In Scotland, instrumental dance tunes and folk songs have always been seen as two parts of the same genre. Folk clubs and festivals host both, and the dance tune repertoire has always used song tunes.

They're different takes on the same material. Around here you could get a tune done an week as a trad song, a celidh band number, a pipe band tune, a brass band medley or used to annoy people by a Rangers flute band. And the same people could be doing that same tune in completely different ways. Nobody but a middlebrow radio presenter would think folk music is only done by singers with guitars.

07 Feb 20 - 04:28 AM (#4032711)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

The Yetties used to play that one. i always enjoyed it.

07 Feb 20 - 05:05 AM (#4032716)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

it always used to be guaranteed to get money if busking. anyway i will listen to the next episode, perhaps martin carthy would have beem a better presenter

07 Feb 20 - 12:40 PM (#4032784)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

The problem for me is I read these threads for a mixture of enlightenment and amusement,
then forget to listen to, or watch, the mainstream media shows being moaned about...

But then, we live in a youtube world now...

07 Feb 20 - 01:51 PM (#4032794)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

"We" ? Speak for yourself. Some of us have a life.

07 Feb 20 - 02:18 PM (#4032802)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean

I see Seth Lakeman sings 'Dear Isle of England". I think he's going to be a wee bit confused geographically....

07 Feb 20 - 02:22 PM (#4032804)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

""We" ? Speak for yourself. Some of us have a life."

GUEST - what.. like zombies sort of have 'life'...

"Plague of the folkie Living Dead" A new Web series streaming for 2020..

Soe old folkie fools might think they are so superior,
that they can smugly disparage 21st century modes of cultural communication - such as Youtube..

But rest assured, real healthy positively alive folk don't care...

07 Feb 20 - 05:25 PM (#4032840)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

Sad.

07 Feb 20 - 06:52 PM (#4032856)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

cheer up...

07 Feb 20 - 07:48 PM (#4032865)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

GUEST - right then.. tell us something about this life you have,
that we may be impressed and envious,
and acknowledge your superiority...

Am I likely to own any of your CDs or DVDs,
are you a prominent cultural influencer,
do you have lucrative music industry endorsement deals,
can you fleece fans for your autographed photos,
are videos of you posted by devoted followers all over Youtube...
etc, etc,...?????

Would I be shocked and delighted if I knew who you really are
behind the mask of anonymous GUEST...???

What a disappointment it would be if you are just a grumpy worthless nobody with a superiority complex...

Being a 'folkie' provides a sense of identity and belonging to an exclusive elitist social group,
that too many chronically dull lifeless folks need to so desperately cling to..

As much as I have grown up enjoying and learning from good British folk music,
its the worst smuggest, dreariest, reactionary, of British folkies who put me off ever wanting to go to folk clubs
and spend too much time in their company..

That is my biggest complaint about the UK folk scene,
but not something I care that much about in the greater scheme of existence..

It can be hilarious when duff BBC folk shows annoy them so much...!!!

So GUEST, if you have any substance and value,
shut me down decisively by posting links to music YOU have created
that is better than anything niche tiny minority BBC folk programming covers,
or even I am capable of creating myself...

07 Feb 20 - 08:16 PM (#4032868)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

I'd say don't let them wind you up pfr - but it's too late

They're not worth it!

I enjoyed the programme but thought the Dylan connection was somewhat irrelevant and over laboured - where were the amazing Scottish folk rock bands such as Runrig, Skippinish, Skerryvore - or indeed the electronica of Martyn Bennett or Niteworks - surely more relevant to Scottish music today than the tenuous links between Rabbie and Dylan?
Having said all that I'm looking forward to the next one - though I still find it hard to forgive the omission of Runrig - like talking about English folk without Fairport or Steeleye Span

07 Feb 20 - 08:37 PM (#4032873)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Joe - it's ok.. I'm too thick skinned and bolsie to take any mudcat nonsense personally..

Trolling anonymous GUESTS are fair game for a laugh..
.. and trolling anonymous GUESTS is fair game for a laugh..

Some might be folks we've interacted with when they previously used consistent mudcat ID..
but for some reason now need to hide..

Others may be complete random newcomer strangers..

Some may have evaded their carers to get on the internet long enough
before prescription meds calm them...

Who knows...

Folkies can be the oddest folk...

07 Feb 20 - 09:46 PM (#4032886)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

"bolshie"..

that's what happens when you correct a misspelling
but bugger up another part of the word without realising...

..and I'd only just earlier discovered a hidden mouse click spellcheck function in Chrome...

[of course.. it's American English...]

08 Feb 20 - 02:44 AM (#4032895)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

i discussed the programme with a friend who is not on mudcat when i mentioned the tenuous dylan connection, they replied well it is saturday evening mainstream entertainment.I am not sure radio 2 on a sat night is that mainstream?
anyway i will listen to the next episode despite its flaws it must be good news to have a folk programme that did play a liitle of the roots of scottish music

08 Feb 20 - 04:44 AM (#4032906)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Didn't listen. Did they have Matt McGinn, The Stewarts of Blair, Jimmy Reid, Jimmy McBeath, Jimmy Hutchinson, Joe Aitken or Alex Campbell?

08 Feb 20 - 05:55 AM (#4032912)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean

I listened, nothing memorable and none of the above mentioned I think.

08 Feb 20 - 08:33 AM (#4032940)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Why am I not surprised?

08 Feb 20 - 09:56 AM (#4032957)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

"they replied well it is saturday evening mainstream entertainment.I am not sure radio 2 on a sat night is that mainstream?"

Dick - your friend has a healthier perspective than a lot of folkies...

By UK radio standards, Radio 2 is about the most mainstream station still on air..

Considering radio overall is a slow death media..

There was a recent [BBC] news report about how BBC radio is struggling to attract new younger listeners,
whilst retaining any the Beeb already had..

Too much competition from mobile phone social media..

It's a long time since a mass audience of my generation of 1970s teenagers
tuned in enthusiastically every night to John Peel..
[but then, TV shut down around 10 or 11...???}
or the weekend live gig broadcasts,
cassette tape recorders at the ready..
Or cared about anything produced by Radio 1.

WE are now the main target demographic for Radio 2,
if we can ever be arsed listening to any of it's predominantly MOR shows...

I'd guess Radio 3 or 4 would be a more appropriate home
for the kind of serious well researched Folk programs over critical disgruntled mudcatters dream of...???

But as I'm a bloke who still occasionally buys Seth Lakeman CDs,
I'd give him fair benefit of the doubt
if I remember to listen to the shows he is now presenting.
Is he writing the scripts, or just reading what he's handed down...??

08 Feb 20 - 10:33 AM (#4032964)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

i am trying to be positive, it could have been better, but it was wort listening to imo

08 Feb 20 - 10:41 AM (#4032966)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - This time I must try to make an effort to listen...
I was up all night fixing two laptops,
That would have been a good time to put headphones on and tune into iplayer..
I could even have done it directly after playing with the trolling GUEST in this thread..
But as usual I got distracted and forgot...

08 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM (#4032971)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

Why do you all keep listening to this ill-informed rubbish on radio (or TV) in the hopes of improvement?- I gave up years ago.

It's all talking endlessly about & analysing the music rather than just doing it- I could (but won't) name a hundred singers the BBC have never heard of who could do a really entertaining series of concerts with a song/tune or two each- seems obvious to me- don't want to upset professional folkies, but it'd be cheap too- the Tories would like that!

08 Feb 20 - 11:57 AM (#4032985)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

Radio 3 would have been a natural home for a well researched folk programme - and Late Junction did a lot of that as part of its very wide-ranging coverage. So the Beeb's management moved it to a unreasonably late slot and then axed it.

I haven't listened to Radio 3 for years (it was the only channel I bothered with apart from the folk stuff on Radio Scotland). It turned into an endlessly repetitive soapbox for MI5 with Donald Macleod spouting the official Cold War line on Shostakovich at every conceivable pretext.

08 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM (#4032991)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

I'm sorry Jack but that comment is as far from the truth as you could get.

I listen to Radio 3 every day (along with other radio particularly R6 and R4). What I can't listen to I catch up with on BBC Sounds. There is a huge amount of superb music from a range of genres - though I was very disappointed that they cut Music Planet from two hours to one - as well as some very interesting spoken word programmes about diverse issues. Composer of the Week that you refer to is on 5 hours every week and only very occasionally features Shostakovich!

I agree with you though that Radio 3 would be a good place for a folk programme - though I happen to enjoy the R2 programme most weeks and was glad to see the Seth Lakeman programme being aired imperfect though it is. Some people wish there were more earlier singers and I wish there had been more of the cutting edge musicians who are performing and writing music now featured so lets face it whatever they did in one hour would leave some of us feeling bereft. They could have taken up a whole programme featuring the work of the late, great Martyn Bennett alone!

08 Feb 20 - 12:23 PM (#4032997)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

I forget so much these days..

Does the Beeb charter actually stipulate a minimum compulsory BRIT FOLK coverage,
that they pay lip service to with occasional quickly made cheap programs...???

08 Feb 20 - 12:24 PM (#4032998)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

08 Feb 20 - 12:27 PM (#4032999)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

oops.. 2nd [empty] post was a clumsy mouse movement...

08 Feb 20 - 08:09 PM (#4033087)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Herga Kitty

I only caught up this morning with the first programme about folk music in Scotland and it was great to hear Iona Fyfe.

Kitty

09 Feb 20 - 03:07 AM (#4033120)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

PFR YOU NEED TO GET A GOOD CAT VERY GOOD FOR CLMSY MICE

09 Feb 20 - 03:24 AM (#4033123)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

A folkie cat like Bagpuss...

09 Feb 20 - 05:02 AM (#4033129)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,big al whittle

I think Jim Bainbridge is right. You have to do it. be engaged.

otherwise you will not be the captain of your own ship. other people always disappoint you, frustrate, annoy you.

09 Feb 20 - 09:58 AM (#4033179)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Dave Sutherland

OMG I was only joking when I mentioned that this week we could expect to be told that “Lord Franklin” was the influence for Bob Dylan and “Bob Dylan’s Dream” but catching up with the programme a few minutes ago (I was late home yesterday following Forest’s demolition job on Leeds Utd.) and there it was!!
I hardly dare suggest that when we come to cover Ireland that “One Morning in May” and “Homes of Donegal” will be cited as the trigger for “With God on Our Side” and “I Pity the Poor Immigrant” respectively. Sorry I don’t know too many folk songs from Wales to try a punt for next week.

09 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM (#4033191)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

What about Kosher Bailey as the trigger for The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll? :)

10 Feb 20 - 04:13 AM (#4033317)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Gillian Reynolds is the distinguished radio critic for the Sunday Times. She has chosen Folk Map as the Pick of the Day for the last two Saturdays, calling it a landmark series and a prime example of public service radio. And this week she has written a glowing review; "Here's a programme made from the heart, about the power of music to lift people of any age, any country, any social rank, above drudge and grudge....No commercial station will ever offer radio like this." I don't know if she is a late convert to folk music - her varied selection for Desert Island Discs didn't include any. But she is valuable ally.

10 Feb 20 - 04:26 AM (#4033319)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Gillian Reynolds is a wonderful lady, and a real radio aficionado(a?).
Sadly her fulsome praise for any programme, must be set against the abysmal standards to which UK radio, and in particularly Radio 4, have sunk.
I have been listening to Radio under it's various changing names for over 60 years, and I cannot remember ever hearing such crap as now masquerades as comedy programming, among other things. It's no wonder that a programme which speaks to the old values of Radio 4, has attracted her attention, and praise.

10 Feb 20 - 04:58 AM (#4033323)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

There is a non-radio show Folk Map. I've used it several times but it must be a pain to keep up to date. Thanks to the builder.

10 Feb 20 - 05:45 AM (#4033328)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge

Gillian Reynolds is someone I have a lot of time for. But maybe she has limited knowledge of folk music and has accepted the information of our respected broadcaster as reliable.
This thread has given several instances of misleading and sheer ignorance of the subject and if the power of the BBC results in this being accepted as the truth, we need to be concerned.

If the Tories find out, it could be another stick to bash the BBC!

10 Feb 20 - 05:48 AM (#4033329)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

i would cite McGonagle as the main influence of style of the writing of hattie carroll

10 Feb 20 - 05:50 AM (#4033330)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Was he a secret Welshman Dick?

10 Feb 20 - 06:03 AM (#4033332)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

If you are still on the folk map, here is Episode Four;

In this final episode Seth takes us to Ireland. He hears from Dublin band Lankum, singer Brian Kennedy, Mike Mathieson of Mad Dog Mcrea, Northern Irish folk singer Cara Dillon, Moya Brennan of Clannad, musician Odhran Mullen, folk singer Daoiri Farrell, harpist Lauren O’Neill, and winners of the 2019 BBC Radio 2 Lifetime Achievement award Dervish. They discuss their favourite Irish folk songs and the musical elements that comprise the Irish sound.

Something for everybody? Probably not.

10 Feb 20 - 06:27 AM (#4033335)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

"The Irish sound?" Aargh!

10 Feb 20 - 06:55 AM (#4033339)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA

I wonder what Lankum and some of the others think of being described as musicians from 'The British Isles'?

10 Feb 20 - 07:10 AM (#4033342)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

The Isles are a bit less British after the election result- have the Irish seen sense at last?

10 Feb 20 - 08:01 AM (#4033348)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean

The British Isles is a geographical term and includes the Republic.

10 Feb 20 - 08:19 AM (#4033350)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

.. and the Falklands.. and.. etc.. etc.. etc..

10 Feb 20 - 10:57 AM (#4033376)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles From: GUEST,RA Date: 02 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM
Surprised that nobody yet has mentioned the use of the problematic term 'British Isles', which is sure to irk many in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 06:55 AM
I wonder what Lankum and some of the others think of being described as musicians from 'The British Isles'?

Probably the same as last week. I doubt that they gave it a thought.

10 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM (#4033379)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Guess how my mrs would respond
if anyone, say for example an American, was clueless enough to insist to her
that Wales is in England...

10 Feb 20 - 11:50 AM (#4033393)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

PFR: How would she respond if they suggested that Wales was a part of Great Britain?

Or the British Isles, the group of islands in which Great Britain and Ireland are the two largest?

I confess that I do take in RTE from time to time. But I try not to inhale. That, I hope, will make it harmless.

10 Feb 20 - 12:02 PM (#4033396)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

henryp - I learned it's best not to sarcastically provoke her worst nationalist urges in such a way..
especially during the six nations rugby tournament...

10 Feb 20 - 12:41 PM (#4033407)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Ah! The six nations! And which nation does she think that the Irish team represents?

But seriously, we all realise that in all other respects your wife must be exceptionally tolerant.

10 Feb 20 - 12:58 PM (#4033410)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

henryp - When Wales do lose, she actually doesn't get too upset being beaten by the Irish, or Scotland...
She also has a soft spot for the Italian underdogs..
It's the common bond of not being English...

But I honestly can't resist taking the piss
when she get's so emotional screeching at the TV during a match...

I don't understand passionate nationalist fervour,
in sport, folk music, or any manifestation...

10 Feb 20 - 01:17 PM (#4033415)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Modette

n this final episode Seth takes us to Ireland. He hears from Dublin band Lankum, singer Brian Kennedy, Mike Mathieson of Mad Dog Mcrea, Northern Irish folk singer Cara Dillon, Moya Brennan of Clannad, musician Odhran Mullen, folk singer Daoiri Farrell, harpist Lauren O’Neill, and winners of the 2019 BBC Radio 2 Lifetime Achievement award Dervish. They discuss their favourite Irish folk songs and the musical elements that comprise the Irish sound.'

That'll be the Cara Dillon who's Seth Lakeman's sister-in-law, I presume.

I'm with Steve. 'Irish sound' - yuck.

10 Feb 20 - 01:18 PM (#4033416)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

"I don't understand passionate nationalist fervour,
in sport, folk music, or any manifestation..."

Hear! Hear! PFR. But there's a lot of it about.

10 Feb 20 - 01:32 PM (#4033417)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA

'The British Isles is a geographical term and includes the Republic.'

Jim MacLean - with all due respect, pretty much all geographical terms are political, as they're applied to geographical features by political creatures (human beings). No toponymy is politically neutral and, in cases like this, it's obviously territorial. None of my many friends from the Republic of Ireland would ever use the term 'British Isles', let alone regarding their own nation as belonging within it.

I would love to hear from some Mudcat people in the Republic of Ireland about this.

10 Feb 20 - 01:34 PM (#4033418)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA

(ps - have a look at 'British Isles naming dispute' on Wikipedia).

10 Feb 20 - 01:50 PM (#4033421)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

btw.. yes I know.. SIX nations..

I completely forgot France..
So, I just asked her, and she almosts detests losing to France as much as England..

But she has no rational reason, just a gut instinct she doesn't like the French rugby team...
She says her Irish mate at work feels exactly the same...

Funny thing instinctive dislike of other nations and cultures,
there's a lot of that in the British folk scene...

10 Feb 20 - 02:28 PM (#4033428)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

I like the French ;)

10 Feb 20 - 02:31 PM (#4033430)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

If the French really did invent cider.. they're alright by me...!!!

10 Feb 20 - 02:38 PM (#4033433)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

From: GUEST,RA Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:34 PM
(ps - have a look at 'British Isles naming dispute' on Wikipedia).

Wikipedia; In general, the use of the term British Isles to refer to the archipelago is common and uncontroversial within Great Britain.

Is it unreasonable for the BBC to aim its output at its licence payers? Or should they be more aware of the sensitivity of our neighbours?

Nevertheless, I hope that listeners on both sides of the border in Ireland will be able to get some pleasure from the Folk Map of the British Isles.

10 Feb 20 - 03:06 PM (#4033440)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

None of my many friends from the Republic of Ireland would ever use the term 'British Isles', let alone regarding their own nation as belonging within it.

So do your friends have any preferred term with the same reference? ("Britain and Ireland" omits Man, which is part of the British Isles).

10 Feb 20 - 03:16 PM (#4033443)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA

No it doesn't, Jack. Man is, like it or not, part of Britain. It's not part of the landmass known as 'Great Britain' but it is part of Britain.

10 Feb 20 - 03:30 PM (#4033446)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

..and what about the Northern Ireland / Scottish Bridge project
on the news today...????

let's tether them before they drift away...

10 Feb 20 - 03:36 PM (#4033448)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

"Man is, like it or not, part of Britain. It's not part of the landmass known as 'Great Britain' but it is part of Britain."

I do like Man, but how do the citizens of Man view your concept of Britain? It sounds rather controversial to me.

And if Man is not part of Great Britain, then it presumably has a place in Little Britain.

10 Feb 20 - 03:38 PM (#4033449)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean

Could someone explain why a football match between England and Scotland is called Anglo/Scottish and a political agreement between the UK and Ireland is called Anglo/Irish What does Anglo mean in these examples?

10 Feb 20 - 04:00 PM (#4033454)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Tune in, and I'm sure that Seth will make everything clear.

10 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM (#4033464)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

The Isle of Man isn't a part of Britain though. It isn't even a part of the UK. It is like the Channel Islands a Crown Dependency.

I understand that for historical reasons many Irish people don't like the term British Isles because it seems to associate them with Britain and almost sounds like the islands belong to Britain. It is though in truth purely a geographic term and in truth it comes from a term which predates even when the term Britain became more specifically associated with the larger island.

It is kind of spitting in the wind as the term is so old and ingrained. Though the UK gvt did take some note of the terms when in the 70s it laid down officially what the area associated with the UK would be called. That is the UK itself plus the Crown Dependencies are officially known as the British Islands which is different from British Isles which is a geographic term for the whole island group. Though I think hardly anyone actually uses the term British Islands. People tend to not think much about the Crown Dependencies so just ue the terms Britain or UK for it.

You can't of course legislate for how individuals view themselves anyway. Plus their self definition changes. I've always viewed myself as Scottish though I have no issue with British as a secondary thing - but more in a geographic sense. If we were independent I'd still view myself as British in a geographic, cultural sense - like Swedes etc are Scandinavian. My wife though no longer views her self as English - which she used to do. She now only identifies as British. She is very pro-union and this change has only happened in the last few years. We are all different. I think by viewing herself as only British she is pushing aside the idea that Scots and English are somehow different.

10 Feb 20 - 05:42 PM (#4033475)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

Do you lot ever think you're being a bit sad? It's a series about folk music for God's sake not a political or geographical statement :-)

11 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM (#4033526)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

I wonder if Seth Lakeman will find any musical record of the enormous social changes that have taken place in the Republic of Ireland. Look at the lifetime of Edna O'Brien.

She said, "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred." Her first book, The Country Girls, published in 1960, was added to the long list of books banned in Ireland under the Censorship of Publications Act, 1929. By 2012, Mary Robinson, the President of Ireland, recognised her as "one of the great creative writers of her generation".

Although she married and moved to London in 1954, her main subject remains Ireland. Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland has grown into a modern, liberal state.

11 Feb 20 - 05:23 AM (#4033536)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman

I have a few criticisms, but overall , i think it was good to have the programme

11 Feb 20 - 06:49 AM (#4033557)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (Irish)

BRITAIN =   the ISLAND of BRITAIN, not any of the islands around it, ie this excludes certainly the IOM, but also the Isle of Wight, Lindisfarne and all the rest. These are covered by the term GREAT BRITAIN.

Northern Ireland is included in the term GB & NI or UK.

There has been no proper use of the term BRITISH ISLES since Irish Independence, 99 years ago- before that that ALL the archipelago belonged to the London government, ie it was British.
The adjective British has been retained in independent countries, like in British Columbia, but that's their choice and I don't the Irish would go for that?

Any use of the BI term, even geographically, is misleading and incorrect and it should not be used.

11 Feb 20 - 10:55 AM (#4033626)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Patriot (Irish)

Wikipedia; Great Britain is an island in the North Atlantic Ocean off the northwest coast of continental Europe. With an area of 209,331 km 2 (80,823 sq mi), it is the largest of the British Isles.

Wikipedia; Owing to political and national associations with the word British, the Government of Ireland does not use the term British Isles. Nonetheless, British Isles is still the most widely accepted term for the archipelago.

Wikipedia; In general, the use of the term British Isles to refer to the archipelago is common and uncontroversial within Great Britain.

You can hardly blame the BBC for using the term to describe its output aimed at its licence payers.

11 Feb 20 - 12:30 PM (#4033643)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Allan Conn

Again I can see why an Irish person might object to the term and mistakenly view it as it was the British Isles because they belonged to Britain but it wasn't! The term is simply the geographic name for the island group whatever the political situation. Originally it was the Britannic or Pretanike Islands (spelling) going all the way back to pre-Roman invasion times. So British Isles was simply the modern version of that. At that time the larger island itself was called Albion. The name Britain only became more specifically associated with the larger island because the Roman province of Britannia covered a large chunk of the larger island. I mean I support Scottish independence but I don't think should that happen we'd then want the geographic term for larger island to be changed just because the of the political situation.

11 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM (#4033647)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (Irish)

Wikipedia is as good as the information it receives and it is WRONG. There is one island called Britain and there are a lot of surrounding islands which, with Britain, make up GREAT BRITAIN.

BBC is also wrong if the 'British Isles' are considered as its - try saying to the Irish Revenue that you have a UK TV licence- you'll get a hefty fine- the BBC can cover musical events in Ireland but the BBC cannot raise a TV licence in the Republic- the Irish Revenue are pretty keen on doing it themselves.
Wikipedia is correct when it says it's an unacceptable term in Ireland so why upset your neighbours any more than you need to- or maybe Brexit has stopped you worrying about that any more?

11 Feb 20 - 12:45 PM (#4033649)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

I agree with patriot- it's all a bit pedantic but if you start drawing lines where they do not exist, you need to be sure of your ground- back to the thread

11 Feb 20 - 01:41 PM (#4033653)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

A UK passport says "United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which would make Great Britain the biggest island in the archipeligo plus all the others except Ireland and the Isle of Man.

11 Feb 20 - 01:43 PM (#4033655)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

except Ireland and the little ones around that.

11 Feb 20 - 01:51 PM (#4033657)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

At least when sea levels rise
and Glastonbury and surrounding hills
become islands again..
They'll know where they stand...

11 Feb 20 - 03:45 PM (#4033669)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

Dear Patriot,

Please don't take offence where none is intended. But you are mistaken about Britain; there is no island of that name.

Wikipedia; Ireland is an island in the North Atlantic. It is separated from Great Britain to its east by the North Channel, the Irish Sea, and St George's Channel. Ireland is the second-largest island of the British Isles.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain was the result of two Acts of Parliament: the Union with Scotland Act 1706 passed by the Parliament of England, and the Union with England Act passed in 1707 by the Parliament of Scotland. So Northern Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom.

When the BBC refers to the British Isles, it is simply referring to a particular group of islands. There is no suggestion at all they are all under the control of the Government in Westminster.

The BBC, I'm sure, does not mean to cause any offence to the people of the Republic of Ireland. Its publicity is addressed to the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who pay for the TV licences that support the BBC. And amongst them, there is no confusion.

11 Feb 20 - 04:00 PM (#4033677)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean

Guest. The union of Scotland and England in 1707 created a state called Great Britain.
The United Kingdom came into being in 1801 when Ireland joined with Great Britain hence " The United Kindom of Great Britain and Ireland". When Ireland became Independent, the U.K. held on to six counties, and the title changed to The Uk of GB plus NI.
The Group of islands are geographically known as The British Isles and the term has no political significance.
Where is this incorrect?

11 Feb 20 - 04:11 PM (#4033684)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

His huff arrived, and he went off in it ;)

11 Feb 20 - 04:11 PM (#4033685)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA

'The Group of islands are geographically known as The British Isles and the term has no political significance.
Where is this incorrect?'

Surely all territorial terms have some political significance? But anyway - the music, the music!

11 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM (#4033689)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

But The British Isles isn't a territorial term.

It's just a toponym with no political significance whatsoever.

11 Feb 20 - 05:28 PM (#4033696)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Just caught up with, and enjoyed some of, Episode 2 - with the unaccompanied singing of the presenter's dad, Geoff Lakeman, the highlight; but far too much heavily Americanised accompaniment elsewhere, sadly.

12 Feb 20 - 04:08 AM (#4033755)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,kenny

"The Group of islands are geographically known as The British Isles and the term has no political significance.
Where is this incorrect?"
Ireland.

12 Feb 20 - 04:30 AM (#4033757)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Kenny, Are you speaking for the whole island of Ireland or just the country called the Republic of Ireland?

I can receive the RTE services in the UK, but I don't complain about their terminology. I'm just happy to enjoy the music.

12 Feb 20 - 05:24 AM (#4033765)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

Ireland is an island and a nation.
The fact that six counties are under foreign control is irrelevant.

There is no such place as the 'British Isles' and even as a geographical term it is not acceptable in Ireland, so should be discontinued.

The old name for Scotland was North Britain -N.B was once added to postal addresses in Scotland. This was accepted as being offensive to the Scots & is never used nowadays. However it's factually correct unlike the 'British Isles'

( factcheck- they are not all British!).

12 Feb 20 - 05:43 AM (#4033767)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Thread creep personified.
Time to close this thread, it's turning into a bun fight.

12 Feb 20 - 06:15 AM (#4033776)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

The Republic of Ireland is growing into a confident, modern, liberal state.
It is ahead of its neighbour in the north, and is leading it by example.

But, as this sensitivity over a name shows, this new, liberal, confidence isn't shared by everyone.

Next week; Canada declares it is not part of America.

12 Feb 20 - 06:30 AM (#4033780)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

HenryP:

"But The British Isles isn't a territorial term. It's just a toponym with no political significance whatsoever."

All toponyms are arbitrary and therefore of political significance; it's naive to believe otherwise.

To demonstrate: why don't we refer to the archipelago as 'The Irish Isles' for a change - is there political significance then?

12 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM (#4033782)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

"All toponyms are arbitrary" What's arbitrary about "Ireland" or "Madagascar"?

12 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM (#4033783)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (irish)

The root of all this is English attitudes to its neighbours. England is going to need all the friends it can get when all the lies & deceit in this ridiculous Brexit takes are exposed, so why upset them any further?

To return to the thread, the programme is crap

12 Feb 20 - 07:52 AM (#4033791)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

What's arbitrary about "Ireland" or "Madagascar"?

Well, exactly - there is nothing to prevent the one from being called the other.

12 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM (#4033798)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

Any chance of getting back to the point I made, that this programme is creating a fucked-up stereotype of racial purity (and probably on purpose)? Here are some statistics on immigrant communities in Ireland (where I think the programme is going next?). More than 10,000 Brazilians means there is going to be some Brazilian-Irish music happening, surely? A lazy Anglocentric dipshit like Radcliffe certainly isn't going to find it, though.

Irish official statistics

12 Feb 20 - 09:26 AM (#4033812)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Mother, Mother, may I go, may I go, may I go,
Mother, Mother, may I go, to the bonny bunch o’ roses?

Yes, my darling, you may go, you may go, you may go,
Yes, my darling, you may go to the bonny bunch o’ roses.

So, from now on, it's to be, it's to be, it's to be,
So, from now on, it's to be the Bonny Bunch of Roses.

12 Feb 20 - 11:28 AM (#4033840)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

I think in the terminological system that makes the programme a 'Folk Map' Brazilian-Irish music would be on a 'World-music Map'.

12 Feb 20 - 11:28 AM (#4033841)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

From: Jack Campin Here are some statistics on immigrant communities in Ireland (where I think the programme is going next?).

Sorry, Jack. Next stop is Wales.

The most common non-UK countries of birth among the population of Wales;
Poland 23,000, India 13,000, Germany 11,000, Republic of Ireland 10,000, China, Pakistan 7,000.

Sadly, no sign of Brazilians, but still lots of Irish.

12 Feb 20 - 11:30 AM (#4033842)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing

Why is it that the Irish "census" statistics do all other nationalities the honour of recognising their country but we, the Scots, the Welsh, the Northern Irish and the English are all lumped together under U.K. This same anomaly exists on the British Census.

12 Feb 20 - 12:38 PM (#4033863)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

The most common non-UK countries of birth among the population of Wales;
Poland 23,000, India 13,000, Germany 11,000, Republic of Ireland 10,000, China, Pakistan 7,000.

Wales has a very large immigrant population that goes back generations - country of birth will way underestimate the numbers of people who retain cultural links outside the country.

I have a relative of primary school age, born in Wales and being brought up bilingual. In Welsh and Polish.

12 Feb 20 - 12:57 PM (#4033867)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

I still haven't listened to any of these programs..

There's too much far more compelling stuff turning up
on my Youtube daily recommendations...

12 Feb 20 - 01:14 PM (#4033870)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

Jack makes a valid point about the mono cultural nature of the artists featured but I think that, given the short time allocated to each programme, it would be impossible to cover a wider cultural scene - and I say that who spends a lot of time listening to music from cultures across the world, some of which is created in the UK. Perhaps the time spent on the connections to Dylan could have been better spent exploring multi cultural music in the UK though it could then be regarded as tokenism. Music Planet on Radio 3 - albeit much shorter than it used to be - provides good coverage of multi cultural music

I enjoyed the England programme more than the Scotland one - though I could have done without Fishermen's Friends. I think generally they had a good spread of music reasonably representative of the more popular end of the folk scene today but I was surprised John Tams, one of the greatest writers and songs in the English folk idiom, wasn't featured and I could think of more interesting singer songwriters than Frank Turner - though it was interesting to hear him as I had not come across him before.

I think we need to remember that this programme is going to be heard by a wider audience than us died in the wool folkies and, given that remit, I didn't think it was a bad attempt. Certainly far from the 'crap' suggested by an earlier correspondent.

12 Feb 20 - 01:22 PM (#4033871)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Joe G - best not to confound old Brit folkies with reason and objectivity...

12 Feb 20 - 01:54 PM (#4033876)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

Sorry I forgot ;-)

12 Feb 20 - 01:55 PM (#4033877)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

This is how RTE sees Irish folk music.

Folk Season; To mark the inaugural RTÉ Radio 1 Folk Awards which took place in Vicar Street on 25 October 2018, RTÉ Radio 1 presents an accompanying five part feature series exploring some of the myriad strands that make up the world of Irish folk music.

In Search of Song; English singer and song collector, Sam Lee, meets some of the Irish traveller families from whom the late Tom Munnelly collected songs in the 1970s. The programme includes original recordings by Tom Munnelly from the National Folklore Collection UCD and archive material from the RTÉ Archives - listen here.

Sounding the New Tradition; Featuring Martin Hayes and the music of Loah and Nava, we take a look at how the merging of cultures is reflected in the music of Ireland at the moment - listen here.

The Summer of Astral Weeks; As 1968 began, Van Morrison was at his lowest ebb, but as 1968 drew to a close, he had transformed the sound of his music, signed to Warner Brothers, and recorded Astral Weeks - now regarded as one of the greatest album of all time. How did Van Morrison turn his life and career around so dramatically that year? And who were the people and what were the events that made it possible? - listen here.

The Road Well Travelled; Niamh Dunne is the fiddler in Beoga, Ed Sheeran’s favourite Irish band. In The Road Well Travelled, she delves into her musical heritage alongside her father, piper Mickey Dunne. Her grand-uncles The Blind Dunne Brothers were very popular travelling musicians who toured Ireland in the 50s and 60s, and for the first time Niamh takes a closer look at her rich family history - listen here.

Sing It Out Loud; Sing It Out Loud looks at the Irish protest songs of today; who is singing them, what are they about and do they have any impact at all? The programme features Terry Moylan, Aileen Dillane, Stephen James Smith and Lisa O’Neill - listen here.

Folk season

12 Feb 20 - 03:08 PM (#4033885)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse

As expected, the "it's not really an English tune/song and they don't have a passport, anyway" voices were much more prominent in Episode 2 than suchlike on the Scottish Episode 1. But then Scotland has about 20% less badly overpaid foreign footballers than the 70% of England's "Premier" League/foreign farce.

And these are the same pro-diversity voices of the BBC's little club who share, on a kind of rotation, awards at their annual folk awards, as the beeb vainly tries to help keep the blasphemous kingdom together.

AFTER PSALM 118:9 AND MATTHEW 4:8-10

12 Feb 20 - 03:13 PM (#4033886)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Walky - it's mudcat being pro-diversity that allows you to continue posting your crackpottery here...

12 Feb 20 - 03:23 PM (#4033887)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse

I'm sure all/nearly all here love our world/our UN being multicultural, PFR, but whether each nation should be multicultural/internal ethnic diversity is another matter.

12 Feb 20 - 03:25 PM (#4033889)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

I think you'll find all decent people are pro diversity

12 Feb 20 - 03:34 PM (#4033890)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm sure walky can't be that unaware
he is treading a thin line between being humoured as a special needs mate,
and being reported to the authorities for using the internet to spread his pernicious views...

13 Feb 20 - 09:00 AM (#4034000)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie

Is there still a radio programme ?

13 Feb 20 - 12:11 PM (#4034029)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Do you mean the Folk Map of the Brutish Isles?

13 Feb 20 - 02:56 PM (#4034073)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: FreddyHeadey

Still a couple of programmes to go but I feel first I need to digest 150 posts and sit the mudcat 'Define the British Isles' test.

13 Feb 20 - 06:03 PM (#4034102)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Gervase

Goodness. So many posts, and the overall impression is rather unkind. Can't we just celebrate a broadcast that talks about what we like?
What on earth has gone wrong with this place? Thank heavens Seth and his dad Geoff (an old mucker of mine) won't see this litany or misery and mean-mindedness.
And with that, I'm off to lurk for another five years, Enjoy your misanthropy, chaps.

13 Feb 20 - 07:00 PM (#4034118)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

Geoff came to our folk club with his black concertina job, along with his mates in Jinx's Stack, in nineteen ninety early something. He played hardly anything and was a bit scathing about some of us who were just starting out and who were admittedly green behind the ears. It wasn't a great night to be honest.
,

14 Feb 20 - 05:49 AM (#4034171)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

Who was "Geoff"? And what does that post relate to?

14 Feb 20 - 06:16 AM (#4034178)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

Geoff Lakeman, the lads' dad. He was mentioned in the post before mine.

14 Feb 20 - 08:29 AM (#4034190)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:57 PM
You are talking Lakepersons of Crapstone-in-Yelverton here...

From: Jack Campin Date: 12 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM
A lazy Anglocentric dipshit like Radcliffe certainly isn't going to find it, though.

From: Gervase Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:03 PM
Thank heavens Seth and his dad Geoff won't see this litany or misery and mean-mindedness.

From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Feb 20 - 05:49 AM
Who was "Geoff"? And what does that post relate to?

From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:16 AM
Geoff Lakeman, the lads' dad. He was mentioned in the post before mine.

Seth Lakeman - not Mark Radcliffe - is the presenter of this series. According to the rather delicate Wikipedia, he grew up with his two brothers, Sean and Sam, in the village of Buckland Monachorum in West Devon. Sean is married to Kathryn Roberts, Sam to Cara Dillon.

15 Feb 20 - 07:25 AM (#4034370)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

OK-
So when all these folk alumni give out a lot of duff information and outrageous and unsubstantiated theories on behalf of a trusted broadcaster to an audience who are largely ignorant about the subject, is that not a problem?

15 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM (#4034427)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST, henryp

Not with you here to lead us to the truth.

15 Feb 20 - 12:37 PM (#4034429)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

Dread to think how much more disgruntled moaning there'd be
if instead of Seth Lakeman, the presenter was Billy Bragg...

15 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM (#4034432)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

so its no problem? Is it now set in stone that the 'Freedom Come all ye was written in the 20s because the BBc said so?

15 Feb 20 - 01:09 PM (#4034439)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker

GUEST - now you wouldn't be one of those
"any petty opportunity to have a go at the Beeb" agenda agitators, would you...???

15 Feb 20 - 01:50 PM (#4034445)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

More opportunities for outrage at 9.00pm tonight on BBC Radio 2.

In this third episode Seth focuses on Wales, the land of song. He hears from Welsh harpist Catrin Finch, singer-songwriter Martyn Joseph, folk singer Gwilym Bowen Rhys, Iolo Whelan of Pendevig, fiddle player Oliver Wilson Dickson, singer Gwyneth Glyn, and five-piece band Calan.

15 Feb 20 - 02:02 PM (#4034448)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

I love Calan!

15 Feb 20 - 05:00 PM (#4034466)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Re episode 3, notice how (apart from stating that their national instrument - the triple harp - originally came for Italy) Welsh folkies, unlike English on Episode 2 (as I said above), felt no need to say this or that tune/song is not really Welsh and they don't have passports anyway...don't you think modern English could at least be a bit more nationalistic?

Than said, I enjoyed most of it - apart from the Manic Street Preachers and their heavily Americanised look-I'm-almost-Jon-Bon-Jovi rubbish.

15 Feb 20 - 06:13 PM (#4034470)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

In passing; Friday 21 February 9.30pm BBC4 TV

Rock Island Line: The Song that Made Britain Rock

16 Feb 20 - 05:19 AM (#4034524)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Guest 15 Feb 12.42

Hello punkfolkrocker- am no anti-BBC agitator!
The opposite if anything- BUT if the respected BBC puts out duff information which is perceived as the truth, then the only people who will be happy are the TORIES, whose destructive plans can be seen in today's newspapers. What else is the BBC misleading us about?

Let's hope THE ROCK ISLAND line programme is better informed, and gives LONNIE Donegan due credit as the writer of the song.

16 Feb 20 - 07:13 AM (#4034533)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Doug Chadwick

....... if the respected BBC puts out duff information which is perceived as the truth, .......

.................

Let's hope THE ROCK ISLAND line programme is better informed, and gives LONNIE Donegan due credit as the writer of the song.



According to Wikipedia:- The earliest known version of "Rock Island Line" was written in 1929 by Clarence Wilson, ......


Is it Wikipedia or our Guest who is putting out duff information?

DC

17 Feb 20 - 05:18 AM (#4034568)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G

I very much enjoyed the Welsh programme especially as it featured both Calan and Jamie Smith's Mabon ( who I am sad to learn are embarking on their final tour this year). I'm partial to a bit of the Manics so no problems there for me :-)

17 Feb 20 - 05:35 AM (#4034573)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw

One of the best things Welsh (in m'humble) was the album Whilia by Fernhill which featured the wonderful singing of Julie Murphy. It's been one of my favourite CDs for yonks.

17 Feb 20 - 06:50 AM (#4034580)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp

Huw Williams, who now manages Calan, trvelled to America to make a programme about the Rock Island Line for Radio Wales, repeated on BBC Radio 4 in 2010.

From timscoverstory; We will finish with one more observation about Lonnie Donegan. He frequently complained that he received only a £10 fee for his recording of Rock Island Line, his biggest hit. Technically, this is true – Donegan was paid “scale” as a musician for recording the song.

However, Donegan conveniently forgot to mention that he had copyrighted the song Rock Island Line. Thus, although the song had a substantial history before Donegan ever encountered it, and though Donegan basically produced a note-for-note copy of Leadbelly’s tune, Donegan subsequently received all of the music royalties from the song.

Furthermore, if someone later produced a version of the song, Donegan would then receive additional songwriting royalties! So, not only did Lonnie Donegan reap a bountiful harvest of copyright royalties from Rock Island Line, he did so at the expense of Leadbelly, and conceivably also Kelly Pace who fashioned the first modern version of this song.

17 Feb 20 - 08:31 AM (#4034593)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

An annotated map that actually does what this thread has printed on the tin should be perfectly doable these days, with user-contributed content labelling the locations - places described in songs or with tunes associated with them, places where performers or collectors worked, locations of libraries or instrument collections, folk-related graves...

Anybody here know about adding layers to Google, Bing or Apple maps?

17 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM (#4034595)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,guest 15 feb 1242

Don't think Doug Chadwick has a sense of humour-

also maybe Lonnie deserved any dosh he got- after all, he almost single handedly got the popular folk revival going- he can't be held responsible for the shambles it is today... that's down to you folkies

17 Feb 20 - 09:48 AM (#4034605)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

Yes, Jack Campin, like this excellent map of Scottish witchcraft accusations!

https://witches.is.ed.ac.uk

17 Feb 20 - 10:11 AM (#4034607)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin

That map is a bit too detail-heavy to load on my phone, but I think I know it from before. Dalkeith, not far from where I live, was the worst place for witch-hunting, though the only place where we'd have an overlap with the folk map would be North Berwick, with the surviving chant from 1592. Its major tourist draw now is golf, but raising a storm to kill the king has to be more topical.

All together now in the direction of Mustique or Mar-a-Lago: "Cummer go ye before..."

17 Feb 20 - 10:18 AM (#4034609)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Doug Chadwick

Don't think Doug Chadwick has a sense of humour-

Oh, it was a joke? Chuckle, chuckle, fall about.


DC

17 Feb 20 - 12:24 PM (#4034650)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

fooled you, anyway!

17 Feb 20 - 07:27 PM (#4034699)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Doug Chadwick

17 Feb 20 - 08:06 PM (#4034704)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: FreddyHeadey

Jack
"adding layers to Google..."

You can have ten layers on a Google 'MyMap'
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/about/mymaps/
You can keep editing private or share editing with named others.

(that's the one Chris Rust uses for his Folk Music Map)

18 Feb 20 - 07:46 AM (#4034754)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Allan Conn

Re the post from John from Kemsing saying that the UK census lumps us all together. There isn't actually a single UK census. We have different census questionnaires. The 2011 Scottish one in the Country of Birth section asks for country of birth and gives tick boxes for Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and also the Republic of Ireland plus there is space to fill in freehand if it is somewhere else. Likewise in the National Identity Section it gives tick boxes for Scottish, English, Northern Irish, Welsh or British (tick all that apply) plus space for freehand if somewhere else. Then in the ethnicity section it enables you to break these down further into "white Scottish etc etc etc" or "Asian Scottish etc etc etc"

18 Feb 20 - 04:01 PM (#4034870)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse

That man FreddyHeadey deserves a cigar - Cuban.

19 Feb 20 - 04:53 AM (#4034925)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST

that'a very obscure post- is he a heel?

06 Mar 20 - 05:04 AM (#4037830)
Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Yoime

Hello!

Did anybody download episode 1 and could send it to me? I can access episodes 2 to 4 but episode 1 is sadly no longer available online.
:-(

yoime-200306 AT yahoo DOT com

Thanks in advance!