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10 May 20 - 04:35 AM (#4051572) Subject: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJNCJUU4rE Pepys described this song as an old Scotch ballad |
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10 May 20 - 04:49 AM (#4051573) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PoPY-mDpA a different version |
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10 May 20 - 06:08 AM (#4051580) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: GUEST I believe that in the days of Pepys anything from north of London could be described as 'Scottish'. |
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10 May 20 - 06:30 AM (#4051585) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Steve Gardham Not quite, GUEST. The specific word used was always 'Scotch'. Otherwise you are correct. In the 17th/18th centuries many stage songs were written and performed in a pseudo rustic/provincial style,(think Oirish) and much of the flowery stuff was written in mild pseudo-Scottish and referred to as 'Scotch'. Unfortunately for researchers a lot of the mush was adopted by Scots themselves and printed in such as Ramsay's tea-table Miscellany in the 1730s. |
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10 May 20 - 06:34 AM (#4051586) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Steve Gardham As far as I can make out there were 2 distinct versions of BA on the go in London in the 17th century. The well printed 'Scarlet Town' version I personally think is not the one, Mrs Knipp performed. I think she more likely sang the slightly more flowery 'Sir John Graeme' version printed by Ramsay a few decades later. This would better qualify for the descriptor 'Scotch'. But as they say, currently I have no proof of this, just a hunch. |
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10 May 20 - 07:17 AM (#4051591) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Jim Carroll We know for certain that these ballads have been around for a lot longer than people have formerly suggested - all Pepys's statement proves is that Bab's was an old lady at the time of the Great Fire of London I'm just trying to (carefully) scan the fascination dissertation on the old songs and legends from our crumbly 2nd edition of Wedderburn's Complaynt of Scotland for a friend and am struck by actually how long these motifs have been around 'The Frog and the Mouse' was a comparative youngster There is not the slightest reason why Barbara Allen should not have originated in Svotland - or France, or Norway, or even ancient Greece Dying for love obviously pre-dates Orpheus - why should not the song Jim |
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10 May 20 - 07:36 AM (#4051592) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman I first heard this song as a child in the fifties a cleaner woman who was irish used to sing it while working. i dont know its exact origin, the versions i sing use the word ken which is a scottish dialect word |
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10 May 20 - 08:11 AM (#4051595) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Vic Smith This is the start of a review which I wrote in 2006 If you want to read it in its entirety, you will have to follow this link to https://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/rumscum.htm "When I first got involved with folk songs, I wasn't really sure what I was looking for. I knew what I didn't want; I didn't want to hear any schoolmarmy voices singing the likes of: |
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10 May 20 - 08:21 AM (#4051597) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: GUEST,henryp Dick, d'ye ken John Peel? From around 1824. |
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10 May 20 - 08:34 AM (#4051598) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Jim Carroll The ballad is timeless and has no boundaries CLARE VERSION Peggy Seeger's father Charles made an extensive study of it's history and tunes and issued an album of 31 variants- my personal favourites being the first by I N Marlor, Boyd's Cove, NC and the last by black Texas convict, Moses 'Clear Rock' Platt The notes of the Library of Congress albums are usually available for free download from Smithsonian should anybody be interested Jim |
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10 May 20 - 08:42 AM (#4051602) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Jim Carroll Don't know if it's temporary, but the notes are no longer available for the album, but Seeger's study can be found elsewhere There's also masses of information on the incredibly helpful 'Bluegrass Messenger' site Jim |
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10 May 20 - 12:40 PM (#4051644) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: GUEST,Pseudonymous I agree that the word 'ken' is not solely or necessarily Scottish. |
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10 May 20 - 01:10 PM (#4051651) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman pseud and henry p,i have only heard it used in recent times by scottish people, it is certainly not a london expression or an east anglian or midland expession, do you ken john peel was a cumberland hunting song. it indicates that it was a border expression? |
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10 May 20 - 02:50 PM (#4051675) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Jim Carroll It's a Northern expression too Dick - and Cunberland D'ye ken John Peel Jim |
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10 May 20 - 06:40 PM (#4051709) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: GUEST,Pseudonymous It comes from old English/Norse. |
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11 May 20 - 01:18 AM (#4051734) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Tony Rees This song was still being sung in the oral tradition in Australia in the 1990s, in the repertoire of the Bobbin family of Eden, New South Wales, who cut timber from the forests for many generations: John Meredith recording Carrie Milliner (1993) - Tony |
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11 May 20 - 03:30 AM (#4051742) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman interesting to see John Meredith. Carrie used little ornamentation in her style |
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11 May 20 - 03:39 AM (#4051743) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqHJ4V893e0 |
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11 May 20 - 03:44 AM (#4051744) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgP3xoOrJic |
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11 May 20 - 03:54 AM (#4051746) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzgTZ6v4P6s sarah makem |
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11 May 20 - 04:09 AM (#4051747) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjccsBqoGE jean redpath |
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11 May 20 - 04:12 AM (#4051748) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs-A0tIsrjg Ewan MacColl |
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11 May 20 - 04:14 AM (#4051750) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqHJ4V893e0 JOAN BAEZ |
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11 May 20 - 04:25 AM (#4051753) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o5Lm1b8KGY JOE HEANEY |
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11 May 20 - 04:26 AM (#4051754) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman I prefer joe heaneys version to any of the other trad singers and to Ewan MacColls |
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11 May 20 - 04:46 AM (#4051756) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman Sarah makem had an interesting version too |
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11 May 20 - 05:29 AM (#4051761) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: GUEST,Gerry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPG6gVnhZeY Art Thieme (Cowboy's Barbara Allen). |
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11 May 20 - 07:25 AM (#4051781) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Vic Smith I could put up the recorded version that I have of Gordon Hall's version of Barbara Allen but some of the contributors here are getting on on years and might not live to hear all of it..... |
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11 May 20 - 08:24 AM (#4051787) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman i prefer joan baez or burlives version to art thieme no offence to any mudcatters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTg1zOzij4I |
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11 May 20 - 08:34 AM (#4051790) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman put it up vic, please it might be shorter than his.version of lord randall |
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11 May 20 - 09:38 AM (#4051809) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Vic Smith I have recorded versions of both, Dick, and can tell you that his Lord Randall is a mere fragment in comparison. |
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13 May 20 - 08:03 PM (#4052331) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Ross Campbell Matthew Wilson has put up (on Soundcloud) a huge collection of his family's recordings going back decades. Search for "Knight, Briggs et al". There are gems in that collection. Among them is this version of Barbara Allen, by my old friend Andrew Knight (RIP). I haven't been able to identify the source of this variation which unusually has a refrain. Any suggestions would be welcome. Ross https://soundcloud.com/knight-briggs-et-al/andrew-knight-barbara-ellen |
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14 May 20 - 02:04 AM (#4052372) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: The Sandman thanks i remember andrew knight and also his father who was always at whitby recording everything in the singarounds, thanks |
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14 May 20 - 04:39 AM (#4052390) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Richard Mellish Yes Vic, do please put that one up. Gordon Hall is always worth hearing. |
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14 May 20 - 06:29 AM (#4052407) Subject: RE: Barbara Allen From: Vic Smith Richard - you make me feel guilty. I have over 100 recordings of Gordon to digitise and ad to the Sussex Traditions database but other projects -my own and commissions - keep coming to the top of my 'to do' list In the meantime, could I refer you to the 242 items - articles, recordings, references etc. that you can find on the SxT database at https://sussextraditions.org/collection/page/24/?search_query=gordon%20hall |