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05 Jan 00 - 05:30 PM (#158568) Subject: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: kinderfolk Does anyone know if there is a real Sourwood Mountain which the song is about? Do you know where in the Appalachians it is? tku |
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05 Jan 00 - 07:37 PM (#158632) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Stewie Malone seems to suggest that it was a real, but does not say where: 'Many tunes grew out of the frontier experience, referring to specific places such as "Cumberland Gap", "Cripple Creek","Sourwood Mountain" or "Natchez-under-the-hill"...' Bill C. Malone 'Country Music USA' Univ of Texas Press p18'. |
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05 Jan 00 - 07:53 PM (#158650) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Stewie Looking a bit further, I found this on the Fiddler's Companion site:
Sourwood is chestnut or other bark used in tanning leather, however, Sourwood Mountain is a placename in Massachusetts, where the ballad originated. It was one of the first trully American ballads, and the tale of a young man fatally bit by a snake made its way into folk traditions throughout the country. The tune in mentioned in a 1931 newspaper account as having been played at a LaFollette, northeast Tenn. fiddlers' contest. It was also listed as one of the standard tunes in a square dance fiddler's repertoire, as asserted by A.B. Moore in his History of Alabama, 1934 (Cauthen, 1990). Wolfe (1982) states it was popular with Kentucky fiddlers./ The title appears in a list of traditional Ozark Mountain fiddle tunes compiled by musicologist/folklorist Vance Randolph, published in 1954. Many comic rhymes were sung with the tune: Stewie. |
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05 Jan 00 - 08:00 PM (#158656) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: kinderfolk Thank you. That will be of great help. |
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05 Jan 00 - 08:00 PM (#158657) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: kinderfolk Thank you. That will be of great help. |
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05 Jan 00 - 08:30 PM (#158676) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: ddw Hi Kinderfolk, Don't know if it has any connection with an actual place in the area, but Black Mountain, N.C. has a Sourwood Festival every year. I was surprised to see in Stewie's post that sourwood is defined as "chestnut or other bark used in tanning leather." In western N.C. that is a beautiful tree specifically called a sourwood. In the fall it turns an incredible shade of red — truly like fire — and has long, cascading golden seed pods. It's conical shape makes it look like a bright red Christmas tree. It has to be my favourite tree in the whole world. Next time I'm down there I'll poke around and see if one of the mountains in the area is called "Sourwood." cheers, david |
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05 Jan 00 - 08:41 PM (#158683) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: kinderfolk tku, that would be swell. |
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05 Jan 00 - 10:01 PM (#158760) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) The song Stewie refers to is "Springfield Mountain" a.k.a. "Pesky Sarpent." The words are, in one version
On Springfield Mountain there did dwell Or words to that effect. "Sourwood Mountain" begins
Chickens a-crowin' on Sourwood Mountain I can't see any relationship between the two sets of words. Nor do the tunes to which I know these songs sound related. T. |
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05 Jan 00 - 10:21 PM (#158775) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: kinderfolk tku, but then how does that explain the first posting of Stewie's which is a quote from a reference, which clearly states there is a Sourwood Mountain in Masschusetts? That is confusing to say the least. |
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05 Jan 00 - 10:22 PM (#158776) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: catspaw49 And "Springfield Mountain" is variously sung under other variants such as "Rattlesnake Mountain." Always makes me think of Stone Mountain in Virginia around Pennington Gap. In the summer evenings, there's a place up the mountain aways outside of there where you can hear the rattlers "singing"....not my kind of music, but I'll never forget being there one evening and listening.....AND looking around at the ground ALL the time. Spaw |
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05 Jan 00 - 10:34 PM (#158785) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Sandy Paton I suspect that the Fiddlers Companion is in error. References are not always accurate. Our Okiemockbird seems to agree. The "pizen sarpint" ballad is usually known as "Springfield Mountain," although it may have attracted a few other names (like "Rattlesnake") along its varied pathway. Someone familiar with the old "Sourwood Mountain" fiddle tune might well have applied that name to the story at some time, but I doubt that "Sourwood Mountain" was the original location of the snakebite tragedy. Sandy (a doubting Thomas) |
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05 Jan 00 - 11:31 PM (#158819) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: ddw There's the other possibility about an exact location — that there are several Sourwood Mountains. Lord knows there are duplicates of almost every other name in various states. There's a Lookout Mtn., TN and There's a Lookout Mtn. in Montreat, NC and a Point Lookout about 30 miles east of it. So maybe there is a SM in Mass and another (others) in the Appalachians. david |
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06 Jan 00 - 01:08 AM (#158864) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Sandy Paton I tried Stewart's Dictionary of American Place Names to no avail. Not listed. Sandy |
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06 Jan 00 - 03:01 AM (#158881) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Stewie The following is the full text of the entry from the Fiddler's Companion if that is of any help:
I GOT A WOMAN ON SOURWOOD MOUNTAIN. AKA and see "Sourwood Mountain." Old-Time, Breakdown & Song. USA, north Georgia. G Major. Standard. One part (Rosenbaum). A reworking of the traditional Appalachian song "Sourwood Mountain" by Georgia fiddler Earl Johnson, who added some new verses and subsituted the "hey-de-ing-dang, diddle ally-day" refrain with "What in the world can I do?" Well, I got a woman on Sourwood Mountain, What in the world can I do? Had so many children I couldn't count 'em, What in the world can I do? (Rosenbaum) Source for notated version: Earl Johnson via his protege L.D. Snipes who taught it to Ray Knight (Lumpkin County, Georgia) [Rosenbaum]. Rosenbaum (Folk Visions and Voices: Traditional Music and Song in North Georgia), 1989; pg. 216. County 544, Earl Johnson & the Clodhoppers - "Georgia Fiddle Bands, Vol. 2". Personally, I know the song best from the Earl Johnson 'I've got a woman on Sourwood Mountain' mentioned above. It has the sort of nonsensical fiddle tune words quoted, but nothing about snakes! It's a rip-roaring fiddle performance though. Gene Wiggins says the tune is of 19th century vintage and usually called merely 'Sourwood Mountain' but that Johnson 'wrought such a change' in it 'that it might be considered a different tune'. [cf G.Wiggins, liner notes to 'Georgia Fiddle Bands Vol 2 County LP 544]. Stewie.
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06 Jan 00 - 09:48 AM (#158927) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Okiemockbird Stewie, thanks for the expanded quote. I think I agree with Sandy Paton the the FC is simply wrong to link "Sourwood Mountain" to "Springfield Mountain." T. |
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06 Jan 00 - 10:14 AM (#158937) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Roger the skiffler Sorry for the thread creep (no, really!) but , ddw, what you describe sounds like the tree that I've seen in the S.Pacific Cook islands and in St Lucia,,WI, which I've heard called the flamboyant or flame tree. Is it the same? The pods are about a foot long and the flame red leaves/flowers are right at the top? Botany is another thing (like music)that I know litle about! RtS |
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06 Jan 00 - 10:58 AM (#158954) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Laura I recently learned this tune. I heard that there is a Sourwood Mtn and its in NC near Galax. There is also a Sourwood tree and its found all over the mid atlantic. |
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06 Jan 00 - 06:42 PM (#159215) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: kinderfolk Thank you, everyone. |
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26 Aug 02 - 04:55 PM (#771901) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Adding after 2 1/2 yars- The sourwood is a small tree, Oxydendrum arboreum, with white flowers, one of the heath family, growing in eastern North America. It is no relation to the flame and flamboyant tree of the tropics. Sourwood Mountain is a dance tune (as noted, no relation to Springfield Mt. and its snakes) with many verses often made up fresh by the performer. The variant in the DT is typical, but here are two from Randolph, with the common "rooster" verse in the first: Lyr. Add: SOURWOOD MOUNTAIN My gal lives at the head of the holler, Hi di rinktum diddle dum a day She won't come and I won't foller Hi di rinktum diddle dum a day! Roosters a-crowin' on Sourwood Mountain Tell my love I better get away Roosters a-crowin' on Sourwood Mountain Hi di rinktum diddle dum a day! Geese in the pond an' ducks in the ocean, Hi di etc. Devil's in the women when they take a notion Hi di etc. Oh the big dog'll bark an' the little un 'll bite you, Hi di etc. The big gal'll kiss an' the little 'un'll fight you, Hi di rinktum etc. Ms May Kennedy McCord, MO, 1938 Lyr. Add: SOURWOOD MOUNTAIN Old man, old man, I want your daughter, Hi ho diddle dum, hi ho day, To make my bread an' pack my water, Hi ho diddle dum a day. Young man, young man, you can have her, Hi ho diddle dum, hi ho day. But she won't work, an' I cain't make her, Hi ho diddle dum day. Joshua C. Keithley, MO, 1940. Both from Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 3, pp. 155-157 |
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26 Aug 02 - 05:55 PM (#771942) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: wilco If sanyone is ever in the Southeastern USA, try to locate some honey made from the sourwood tree. "Sourwood Honey" is considered some of the best here in Tennessee. Beekeepers will pull the honey from the hives before and after the sourwood run, to assure that the honey that the bees set is all from the flowers of the sourwood tree. I've heard three states claim that their Sourwood Mountain is the one referred to in the song (NC, TN, VA.) Wilco in Tennessee USA |
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26 Aug 02 - 06:02 PM (#771945) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Add my cheers for local honeys. In the Big Bend country of Texas, I found a honey so dark that it looked almost black in the jar. I consider it to be the best I ever had. Of course no honey is 100% one species, but careful work, as you point out, can make it "mostly" pure. |
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27 Aug 02 - 06:36 AM (#772220) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: masato sakurai There's another Sourwood Mountain; Quotation from: Kenansville Historical Trail:
17....Heartbreak Hotel
James Wallace Webb, whose brother ran Webb's General Store on Kenansville Rd., let rooms at $3 for a double for the first night, $2 for each additional night. Webb, from Sourwood Mountain in Teges, Kentucky, was born on September 8, 1919. He left there for Florida on November 8, 1939, and arrived in Kenansville on January 11, 1940. After three years, he moved to Arkansas, then moved back here three years after that. ~Masato |
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27 Aug 02 - 07:45 AM (#772236) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: masato sakurai According to USGS: Geographic Names Information System (containing "entries for almost 2,000,000 geographic features in the United States"), there're two Sourwood Mountains on the record.
(1) Sourwood Mountain -- St: TN -- County: Jefferson -- Type: summit -- Latitude: 360428N -- Longitude: 0833456W
(2) Sourwood Mountain -- St: VA -- County: Russell -- Type: ridge -- Latitude: 370111N --Longitude: 0820820W
Other Sourwood names include Sourwood Spring (AL), Sourwood (KY), Sourwood Branch (KY, SC), Sourwood Creek (MS, TN), Sourwood Gap (NC), Sourwood Mountain School (school; VA), and Sourwood Ridge (WV). No Massachusetts place name is among them. ~Masato |
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27 Aug 02 - 10:04 AM (#772293) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Jacob B If we are looking for the place the song originated, it sounds like we should be looking for a Springfield Mountain in Massachusetts. Is there such a mountain? |
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27 Aug 02 - 12:18 PM (#772388) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) The Sourwood Mountain song has nothing to do with the Springfield Mountain song, as stated before by Sandy Paton and Okiemockingbird. Type Springfield into Digitrad and Forum Search for several variants of the poison snake song. |
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29 Aug 04 - 02:39 AM (#1259327) Subject: RE: I Got A Gal/ Rooster Crow On Sourwood Mt. From: GUEST,Granddaddy from Hazard, Ky played a banjo an Chickens crowing on Sourwood Mountain, ho de ding dong doodle dolly day So many pretty girls you can't count 'em ho de do dog diddle dolly day. Little dog will bark; a big dog'll bite ya. Little gal will spark; a big girl will spite ya----ho de etc. My ol gal lives over in Lynch; she's a six foot tall wicked wench. My ol gal lives bottom a Big Black Mountain; her big mouth is always a spoutin. You kin have this verse, cause it kaint get much worse. |
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29 Aug 04 - 02:54 AM (#1259333) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Joe Offer There's an extensive entry on this song at the Traditional Ballad Index: Sourwood MountainDESCRIPTION: Dance tune with words; young man wants his true love, but she is coy. Versions often contain a variety of floating or spontaneous verses. First stanza may begin, "Chickens crowing on Sourwood Mountain...."AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1916 (Wyman-Brockway) KEYWORDS: courting love rejection nonballad playparty FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So) REFERENCES (13 citations): Randolph 417, "Sourwood Mountain" (4 texts plus a fragment, 1 tune) Randolph/Cohen, pp. 346-347, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 417A) BrownIII 251, "Sourwood Mountain" (7 texts plus an excerpt and 3 fragments) Wyman-Brockway I, p. 91 "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune) Fuson, pp. 170-171, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text) Sandburg, p. 125, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune); 320-321, "I Got a Gal at the Head of the Holler" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-FSUSA 24, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-ABFS, pp. 276-277, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune, composite) Botkin-AmFolklr, pp. 897-898, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune) Chase, pp. 148-149, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune) Darling-NAS, pp. 257-258, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text) Silber-FSWB, p. 35, "Sourwood Mountain" (1 text) DT, SOURWOOD Roud #754 RECORDINGS: Coleman & Harper "Sourwood Mountain" (Perfect 12751, 1931) (Oriole 8095, 1935) Fruit Jar Guzzlers, "Sourwood Mountain" (on CrowTold01) I. G. Greer & Mrs. I. G. Greer, "Sourwood Mountain" (AFS; on LC12) The Hillbillies, "Sourwood Mountain" (Vocalion 5022, c. 1926) Earl Johnson & his Dixie Entertainers "I've Got a Woman on Sourwood Mountain" (OKeh 45171, 1927) Kessinger Brothers, "Sourwood Mountain" (Brunswick 308, c. 1929) Bradley Kincaid ,"Sourwood Mountain" (Gennett 6417/Silvertone 8220, 1928) (Brunswick 420, c. 1930) (Conqueror 8090, 1933) (one of these is on CrowTold02, but it's not clear which) Clayton McMichen, "Sourwood Mountain [part of instrumental medley] (Decca 2649, 1939) Fiddlin' Powers & Family, "Sour Wood Mountains" (Victor 19448, 1924) Hobart Smith, "Sourwood Mountain" [instrumental] (on LomaxCD1702) Ernest V. Stoneman, "Sourwood Mountain" (Victor 20235, 1926) Stove Pipe No. 1 [pseud. for Sam Jones], "Cripple Creek & Sourwood Mountain" (Columbia 201-D, 1924) Uncle "Am" Stuart, "Sourwood Mountain" (Vocalion 15840, 1924) Gid Tanner & Riley Puckett, "Sourwood Mountain" (Columbia 245-D, 1924) Taylor's Kentucky Boys, "Sourwood Mountain" (on BefBlues3) The Vagabonds, "Sourwood Mountain" (Bluebird B-5335, 1934) Wade Ward, "Sourwood Mountain" [instrumental] (on Holcomb-Ward1) Henry Whitter, "Sourwood Mountain" (OKeh 7005, n.d.) Notes: The Baptist church disapproved of dancing, but allowed playparties (dances with sung tunes instead of instrumental music) - PJS It should be noted that this is primarily a fiddle tune; it's listed because it occasionally turns up with words. - RBW File: R417 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2004 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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29 Aug 04 - 04:15 AM (#1259344) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST,.gargoyle This link: http://www.maporders.com/loc/37/082/370000t0820730.shtml will take you to a searchable USGS map-quadrant of Virgina and the precise location of Sourwood Mountain.
Sincerely, |
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29 Aug 04 - 10:48 AM (#1259471) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Bill D and this link will let you hear the song. From this page |
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29 Aug 04 - 02:24 PM (#1259521) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Q (Frank Staplin) I prefer the Sourwood Mountain in Jefferson County, Tennessee, also on the USGS Names list and quadrangle map as noted above by Masato. Not on official maps, but locals recognize a Sourwood Mountain near Teges, KY. And how about Sourwood Ridge, WV? There are others. |
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29 Aug 04 - 08:28 PM (#1259594) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Q (Frank Staplin) "Sourwood Mountain" in the Wolfe Collection: Sourwood Mt |
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29 Aug 04 - 08:36 PM (#1259596) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Lots of missed connections with Mudcat tonight (needs more baling wire?). Link didnt work. The Wolf Collection's Sourwood Mountain is at: http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/applesourwood1265.htm Try again: Sourwood Mountain |
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30 Aug 04 - 10:24 AM (#1259811) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Joe_F "a small U.S. tree...of the heath family with white flowers and sour-tasting leaves", says MWC10. |
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30 Aug 04 - 12:19 PM (#1259899) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Bill D http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/applesourwood1265.html this is the right address, but they may prohibit direct links. If you go to http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/, you can access the "Ozark Folksongs" collection and get it and more. |
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30 Aug 04 - 12:34 PM (#1259914) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Bill D I notice that downloads at this site are quite slow. Even with a cable modem, it took several minutes to play a song. I am not sure why, but do be patient with them. (It could happen that posting on a site like Mudcat 'could' strain their resources and bandwidth). |
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30 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM (#1260076) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Jim Dixon The Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names lists 2 places called Sourwood Mountain. One is a peak in Jefferson County, Tennessee; the other is a ridge in Russell County, Virginia. |
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31 Aug 04 - 12:02 AM (#1260367) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST The link appears overload for the week. |
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31 Aug 04 - 12:02 AM (#1260369) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST Cheap people recieve cheap service. |
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10 Jul 13 - 05:38 PM (#3536019) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST,Hello There is also a Sourwood Mtn in Summers County WV, because I live there :) |
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11 Jul 13 - 05:24 PM (#3536459) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Cool Beans There are mountains near Springfield, Massachusetts, in the Holyoke Range: Mt. Holyoke, Mt. Tom and others, but none specifically named Springfield Mountain. |
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23 Jan 20 - 09:38 AM (#4029767) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST,Cornwall England I learnt to sing the Sourwood Mountain song at school in 1957 in Cornwall, SW England. Cornwall has a long history of mining and so I assumed that the song was learnt somewhere with mining and then brought back to England by the Cornish miners. We also have a great tradition of singing and Methodism. I went to the Sourwood Mountain festival in Black Mountain NC a few years ago but it wasn't really played. Some guys on the tourist train Great Smoky mountains ride knew it and played it for me. they played it very fast like a jig. I used to drive my mother mad by singing the song all the time and this is why I decided to try and find out more about it. It sounds like I haven't yet tracked down the real mountain but I think there must be a link to mining. It also doesn't sound like a Cornish folksong to me so I believe it did originate in America somewhere. Thanks |
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13 Mar 23 - 08:04 PM (#4167491) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Lighter Chillicothe [O.] Gazette (Feb. 23, 1894): "...at Middlesborough, Ky., in a barn on top of Sour Wood Mountain." |
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13 Mar 23 - 08:23 PM (#4167492) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Rapparee Google Earth will take you to the Sourwood Mountains in Virginia and Tennessee. |
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14 Mar 23 - 02:49 AM (#4167509) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Just bumped the origins thread. There are several 'Sourwoods' in Kentucky but the oldest 'lyrics' I'm aware of are from a couple of nickel weekly serials set in Kentucky. |
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14 Mar 23 - 04:19 PM (#4167553) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: Lighter Evansville [Ind.] Journal (May 5, 1892): "[In 'Big Sandy' country] 'The Sour Wood Mountain' is sung by the rosy-cheeked maid over her churn and accompanies the stroke of the ax in the forest. The precocious baby is taught to say 'Mam and Dad' and sing 'Sour Wood Mountain.' The words go something like this: 'Big dog bark and little one bit you, Hey come a diddle, come a day. Gals all gone to Sour Wood Mountain, Hey come a diddle, come a day.'" Like "Cripple Creek," it could have developed at any time. Aside from inclusion in Irish, Scottish, and New England music collections, mentions of American folk tunes and songs are uncommon during the 19th C. |
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14 Mar 23 - 06:51 PM (#4167567) Subject: RE: Is there a real Sourwood Mtn & where? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Fwiw where: "Big Sandy country" is a ways up river from Evansville around & below Louisa, KY –– where the Levisa & Tug forks join. The east bank is West Virginia. |