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16 Jul 20 - 10:34 PM (#4064514) Subject: Haile Selassie - From: The Sandman there is a proposal to make him a saint, then there are others Rastas that say this is too demeaning because he is a god,a saint is not good enough. My father knew his partner sylvia pankhurst and had met him a couple of times, I believe they had a son richard pankhurst. i find this religion hard to take seriously, the idea of masking him a saint i find puzzling because i am not sure he did anything that warrants saint hood. |
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17 Jul 20 - 01:39 AM (#4064523) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Jos As a contrast, a statue of Haile Selassie was destroyed recently in a London park. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409 |
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17 Jul 20 - 03:50 AM (#4064534) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: punkfolkrocker "there is a proposal to make him a saint" All religions are verging on insanity, or completely tipped over the edge, so why not.. As long as it don't kick of any murderous religious wars... At least Rastafarians created music far better than most other crank cults.. .. and for that I will be eternally grateful... |
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17 Jul 20 - 04:22 AM (#4064537) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Dave Hanson As I understand it to be sanctified you need to have been seen to perform a miracle, how does this apply to Haille Selassie ? Dave H |
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17 Jul 20 - 04:22 AM (#4064538) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Manitas_at_home Where on earth did you get that about Sylvia Pankhurst? Richard was already 5 years old when Sylvia went to Ethiopia. When she died in 1960 she hadn't revealed the identity of Richards father but did say he was 53. If she said that in 1960 it would rule out Haile Sellasie as the father. |
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17 Jul 20 - 04:24 AM (#4064540) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Dave Hanson Boris Johnson should qualify, he performs a miracle everyday, ie. a man with no backbone standing upright. Dave H |
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17 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM (#4064545) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Jos The rules for being made a Roman Catholic saint, I think, involve performing two miracles. Possibly the Rastafarian version of Christianity has different rules. |
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17 Jul 20 - 08:04 AM (#4064565) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Raedwulf Sylvia Pankhurst, aged 45, gave birth to son Richard in 1927. I can't see any conceivable way (pun intended) that Selassie might have been the father. Certainly, if her quote of the father being 53 was spoken in relation to the d-o-b of Richard, it's impossible. Selassie was born in 1892, so would only have been 35. I can't answer for when she first visited Ethiopia, but she seems to have become interested in Ethiopia only in the mid 30's when she was already well into her 50's. She moved there (with son Richard) only in 1956, at Selassie's invitation, when she was 74. |
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17 Jul 20 - 09:25 AM (#4064577) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Mrrzy Rastafarianism is not a branch of xtianity, is it? And Haile Salassie is already their god, so no need to sanctify. If the xtians want to canonize him that is something else. |
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17 Jul 20 - 09:32 AM (#4064580) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: The Sandman Pankhurst was born in 1927 in Woodford Green to left communist and former suffragette Sylvia Pankhurst and Italian anarchist Silvio Corio. Sylvia Pankhurst, had been an active supporter of Ethiopian culture and independence since the Italian invasion in 1935, and Richard grew up knowing many Ethiopian refugees. Sylvia was a friend of Haile Selassie. However Manitas, it is irrelevant, but since you asked, i misremebered a story of my fathers [who was in the communist party with sylvia pankhurst and knew them all ] Selassie and Pankhurst and Cirio. Selassie did not think he was the son of god. |
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17 Jul 20 - 09:40 AM (#4064581) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Jos According to 'Britannica' it does seem to have a fair bit of Christianity at it base: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Rastafari |
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17 Jul 20 - 10:19 AM (#4064586) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: punkfolkrocker I remember in my late teens reading a serious article about Rastafarianism, which completely disillusioned me. What I thought might help me understand the mystifying lyrics of great reggae songs, actually enlightened me as to the crackpot reactionary misogynistic homophobic ganja addled nature of what at the end of the 1970s was a media glamourised trendy 'religion'... Oh well.. the music is still amongst the best ever created... |
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17 Jul 20 - 07:53 PM (#4064653) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Steve Shaw For decades now in our house, if something has gone really well and suits us down to the ground, we say "Well that was really good, I'd even say it was Haille Selassie..." |
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18 Jul 20 - 01:58 AM (#4064675) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: The Sandman whenever i hear a good fiddler i think thats highly strung. |
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18 Jul 20 - 02:36 AM (#4064688) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Joe Offer I think that if you view a religious creed from a rational point of view, the creed will always appear to be lacking. But don't think that's the purpose of a religious creed. A creed is a story told by a people in their quest to make sense out of the insanity of their own lives. And creeds do this remarkably well, no matter what the content of the creed may be. I think it's a universal truth, that we as individuals and as groups of people, are of infinite value - and I believe that "truth" with all my heart. Unfortunately, there's another "truth" that people believe that I think to be an absolute falsehood: that while we are of infinite value, all others are evil and worthless and to be despised. I have spent my life working to refute that second "truth," but I haven't made much progress. If we ever get to the point where we truly believe in both the value of ourselves and the value of others, then I think we will have attained what Jesus called "the Kingdom of Heaven," and the Buddha called Nirvana, and others call/called by other sacred names. So, yeah, the creed of Rastafari doesn't make much sense - but then, no creeds do. Still, it holds out an ideal and a hope for people who have little to value and little to believe in. It's doesn't matter whether Hailie Selassie (birth name: Ras Tafari Makonnen) was factually perfect or not. He was an ideal, someone to believe in. And as such, he was a saint and a savior. I'm sure that history can find all sorts of things about Hailie Selassie that were questionable and maybe even horrible, but I've often found that the history is far worse that the reality, that the truth is often truer than the "facts." Haile Selassie is someone to believe in, and that's a very important thing. So, I suppose, is Robert E. Lee, but that's for another discussion. But back to Haile Selassie: flawed though he may be, it's clear that he is a rare symbol of African triumph over European domination. That's a symbol people need to believe in, despite the flaws that there may be in the historical Haile Selassie. Does that make any sense? -Joe- P.S. I've usually found, with a few exceptions, that our saints weren't really as good as we believed them to be; and our demons weren't nearly as bad as we believed them to be. |
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18 Jul 20 - 02:37 AM (#4064689) Subject: RE: BS: haille selassie From: Mr Red ie. a man with no backbone standing upright. 😂 😂 But he does have a backstop, or two. Cummings and Govings. |
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18 Jul 20 - 02:58 AM (#4064695) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Bonzo3legs And his shit doesn't stink!!! |
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18 Jul 20 - 03:14 AM (#4064697) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Mr Red Hey - 'ave U got COVID or is anosmia ever your bag? |
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18 Jul 20 - 04:21 AM (#4064705) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Joe Offer Bonzo, Haile Salassie hasn't taken a shit since 1975, so you're right. His shit don't stink. But he is an icon that inspires hope in some people who need hope, so it's best to leave him alone. -Joe Offer- |
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18 Jul 20 - 05:22 AM (#4064714) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: The Sandman Joe Offer, Prince Andrew is an icon to some people but should he be left alone? perhaps he should be made a saint too, but then like HAILLE he is already a majesty, so like haille that would be down grading him
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18 Jul 20 - 09:10 AM (#4064742) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Gibb Sahib It would be a shame to over associate Rastafari with Jamaican music, or even just reggae, with it. That would be like thinking of American music in terms of New Age hippies. There was a period when Rastas got a high profile in Jamaican music. Like there was a hippie era in American rock. So happens that the slice of Jamaican artists that got marketed to / picked up by people outside Jamaica were in the Rasta trend, and the people who picked it up were, sorta, hippies. Selection/confirmation bias. What they did in producing and marketing the Wailers to the aesthetics of Anglo/White rock fans is well known. The irony in the Jamaican story is that Rasta developed as an intended Afrocentric philosophy, but it looked abroad to EAST Africa (not the ancestral home of Black Jamaicans) and to Christianity. Whereas right there in Jamaica were religions of West and Central Africa that people had maintained. "Kumina" was a big one, brought by people from Congo who were never enslaved. But Rastas were *actively* at odds with these African religions, considering them sinful. They were also at odds with the Black Jamaicans who sought empowerment through Islam (in the Malcolm X vein). Black people in Jamaica had succeeded in getting an independent "Black" majority country, with also room to be a multicultural nation. (The motto of JA is "Out of Many, One.") It wasn't like minority Black people in the US in Garvey's day, who had the idea of escaping white supremacy by leaving the country. Black Jamaicans had their country, and a newly forged Black identity of the new world, forming coalitions of Caribbean nations that knew their worth as Black people. Then the Rastas come and bring this regressive form of fire and brimstone Christianity and bizarre reverence for a very dubious leader. It's like college kids when they get into some "revolutionary" stuff, fight the system, though it's all ideas they got from their professors (the system) and comes from French and German philosophers. A lot of projecting: Telling others to become decolonized, while who could be more colonized mentally than them and their Bibles? Of course the figurehead would be Bob Marley, a biracial guy with connections, who would feel the need to overcompensate when seeking "Africa" -- rather than, say, the Maroon people in Jamaica who effectively beat their colonial masters and had kept going with Ghanaian style customs and language. I'm speaking to the anti-colonial / pro-African aspect of Rastafari that people would try to say justifies it despite its poor values and plain weirdness. It's as if people assume "those poor jamaicans, poor Black people -- good for them in coming up with a powerful philosophy" -- whereas the reality was that Jamaicans already had strong movements and didn't need a literal interpretation of the Bible! |
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18 Jul 20 - 10:30 AM (#4064757) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Steve Shaw Apologies for misspelling his name. |
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19 Jul 20 - 09:47 PM (#4065012) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Joe_F "I think that if you view a religious creed from a rational point of view, the creed will always appear to be lacking." Tell that to Aquinas! Or, if you prefer a heretic, Spinoza! It is true that religious belief presents grave challenges to a rational point of view, and *to me* they seem insuperable, but some very smart people have thought otherwise. * If I were a cassowary On the sands of Timbuktu, I would eat a missionary, Coat and bands and hymnbook, too. |
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20 Jul 20 - 01:34 AM (#4065026) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Joe Offer Read a little Thomas Aquinas and you may be surprised, Joe. He was far more rational than you might expect. It was his followers, the "Thomists," who twisted things so thoroughly. |
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20 Jul 20 - 02:02 AM (#4065028) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: punkfolkrocker I recently watched a documentary touching on the Yaohnanen tribe, island religion, that worships Prince Philip... The documentary crew looked like they were possibly struggling to keep a straight face, when respectfully interviewing the Chief... Oddly enough.. I'm not a fan of royalty or religions... |
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20 Jul 20 - 03:28 AM (#4065034) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: The Sandman the necessity to worship somebody is fascinating. why choose prince philpip . This reminds me of a book called the diceman where decisions were made on the throw of a dice, i wonder if names are thrown in to a hat and chosen at random. So prince philip is alive and is regarded as an icon by the Yaohnamen tribe, so being dead or alive does not always seem to be of importancein choosing icons |
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20 Jul 20 - 03:48 AM (#4065038) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: The Sandman the prince philip movement .. what does it involve is it like the hokey cokey does it require driving without a seat belt. "Police speak to Prince Philip for not wearing seat belt. Norfolk Police say they have spoken to the Duke of Edinburgh after he was pictured driving without a seat belt, 48 hours after being involved in a crash near Sandringham in Norfolk. " |
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20 Jul 20 - 05:11 AM (#4065048) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Dave Hanson Phil the Greek has given up driving, so no problem now. Dave H |
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21 Jul 20 - 03:56 PM (#4065306) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: The Sandman so is prince andrew the son of god? |
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21 Jul 20 - 04:07 PM (#4065308) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: punkfolkrocker Well.. Mary was an underage girl knocked up by God.. So there's known previous form... |
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21 Jul 20 - 04:45 PM (#4065314) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: punkfolkrocker ..anyway, hasn't royalty's historic claim for legitimacy always been, kings and queens were direct marketing PR reps, and area managers, stationed here on Earth by by god...??? |
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21 Jul 20 - 06:23 PM (#4065325) Subject: RE: BS: Haile Selassie (1892-1975) From: Joe_F Scratch the cassowary. What I meant to add was: Feelin' just as sassy as Haile Selassie. If I were a king, 'twouldn't mean a thing -- Put my boots on tall, read the writing on the wall, And it wouldn't mean a thing, not a goddam thing.... |