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06 Jan 00 - 09:24 PM (#159301) Subject: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Petr Hi folks, this is my first shot at this forum but here goes. Ive been playing irish fiddle for several years and have attended a number of regular sessions in my hometown (vancouver) as well as some in Ireland and Scotland. I even started one specifically for set dancers. At the time I didnt know that people got paid to run sessions so all we got was half price beer while in other sessions the ringers who were there each time got paid. Another group received pub food instead. What are peoples feelings on this issue. On the one hand, to me at least, it becomes a job and changes the purpose of the session (which is to serve the music) while on the other its only fair to get compensation if you have to make the commitment of being there each time & organizing it. Also what would be the average payment per person. (here at least it some to be about $75 Can) Cheers, Petr |
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06 Jan 00 - 09:48 PM (#159319) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Willie-O There was a thread awhile ago entitled "When should you be paid to play?" in which this question came up, because I mentioned it as a common practice where I come from (Ottawa), to have a paid (by the pub) host for a session. I was surprised that it was considered controversial or questionable by some. The reason it seems to work is that it provides continuity and a particular personality to a given session. On philosophical grounds you might prefer an egalitarian approach, but that translates into nobody getting paid, (since no pub owner in the world is going to pay everyone that shows up, and damn few professional musicians, understandably, care to split up their nights' pay with everyone else who happens to be at the table at closing time) and these sessions just don't seem to have longevity. I think its odd that you think of these folks as "ringers"--odd in the sense that every session I know of is advertised by its host pub as "Celtic Session with host So-And-So"--this is only good business and makes the whole matter straightforward and ethically above board. Beats the hell out of me why they wouldn't advertise who the person they're paying is, since they're expecting his/her presence to draw both other players and listeners. If that's the case, I can see why you're ambivalent. Willie-O |
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06 Jan 00 - 10:11 PM (#159333) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: paddymac Hosting a session involves more than just playing music. Somebody needs to get it organized and off the ground, and try to keep it running smoothly so that it is enjoyable for both the players and the paying customers, who, after all, make the whole thing possible. How much the publican can pay depends mostly on how much he makes off the session. Should the session host get fairly paid for his service to the publican? Why not? |
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06 Jan 00 - 10:28 PM (#159344) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Barry Finn Many times the pub owner chooses someone knowing the person leading will draw other musicians. A friend of mine runs sessions probably at least 5 nights a week at various bars. He's there all the time & he's the draw for other musicians & customers alike & he gets paid & well he should, even still, depending on the bar the drinks may still be half priced or food put out for the players. I don't know how it is in other areas but in the Boston area Irish bars open at an extreme rate & one of the ways to start a draw is with a session. Barry |
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07 Jan 00 - 03:46 AM (#159445) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Liz the Squeak SO helps run sessions every week and is complaining bitterly that the new landlord doesn't honour the previous incumbent's habit of supplying a plate of sandwiches for the assembled company, none of which he ever got to eat anyway! The assembled company usually consisted of a group of fellows who guzzled all the sarnies. Funny, haven't seen them since the free food stopped..... Getting paid to do something you enjoy is always and ever a bonus, stop whingeing, take the money/food/beer and go with it!! If you want to be paid in m, f or b, why don't you ask the landlord/session host, or go find a suitable pub/venue and start your own on your terms..... LTS |
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07 Jan 00 - 06:00 AM (#159463) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Skipjack Hear, hear, Elizabeth. Same thing happened up north as your SO experienced. Landlord changed, sarnies stopped, crowd changed, session died, lead fiddler started new session in new pub (The Sloop, in Barton-on-Humber, Tuesday night, plug, plug) on his terms, no pay, regular bar prices, but including the to die for sandwiches. Result: Better session than previous, although the same guitarist still sings very long songs in Am. I think, from a mean minded UK perspective, it would get on the tits of equally good session musicians to know that the leader was there for any reason other than the love of the music, so I think the exchange of filthy lucre does sully the ideal. .....But if the landlord was trying to force a wedge into my back pocket, I would no doubt feel differently. I have earned good money playing pubs as a combo and a four piece, but they have been definite gigs, not sessions.
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07 Jan 00 - 10:04 AM (#159523) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Musicfan Attended a song circle for a while that was led by an elementary school music teacher. Don't think she was paid, but she surely deserved it and I think most of the folks in circle would have been happy to kick in. |
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07 Jan 00 - 10:11 AM (#159529) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: alison Call me naive.. but until fairly recently I reckoned sessions "happened" turn up with an insturment and start to play, if someone was advertised as playing, then they were the entertainment. Then a friend told me that he was getting paid for starting sessions, eg. he pulls out a guitar, and hopes others join in, he can even sit back and let them take over....looks spontaneous... but he gets $120 plus free beers for his troubles. slainte alison |
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07 Jan 00 - 11:11 AM (#159557) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Having been to both types of sessions in Halifax, they're both good. One session was just for the pure love of music, and no one got paid. The second one, the host got paid, and the singers/musicians got the first beer free. (Think they got a break on the price of the beer later. I drank Sprite, and there was usually a break of some kind). Music flowed in both. The first session was designed to be in a Non-Smoking venue, and everyone loves it. The second is in an Irish Pub environment so you have a lot of patrons who are talking over the musicians. Hard to say which is better. I do think that the host of the session should be paid something, whether it is in kind (ie beer) or $$! |
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07 Jan 00 - 11:12 AM (#159558) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: peg hi there; well i approve of organizers or head musicians getting paid to keep things running smoothly. Often the folk who run sessiuns in the Boston area create a draw for that establishment and/or other musicians (as Barry said). I have found that the way in which this impacts the "feel" of the sessiun has everything to do with the specific personalities of those running it, as opposed to the fact that someone is being paid. In my experience, some "leaders" like to run a rather strict, tight ship, to the point of constantly wanting to have tunes playing (so there is no real break for musicians to converse), or to the point of (rudely in my opinion) asking, say, a second boudhran player to "sit out" because one boudhran (even a good one)is enough for anyone--I know that is a whole other issue, the boudhran thing, so let's not go there! But in my opinion an open sessiun is an open sessiun...and all should be welcome as long as they ae not being disruptive or obnoxious. Some "leaders" will play obscure tunes only they know so other musicians find it impossible or at least difficult to join in. Still others are laid back, friendly, and supportive of newcomers. Some of them (men)don't like women joining in, Irish, American or otherwise. I imagine some have a bias against singers or certain non-traditional instruments. It has been my observation that female or American players need to really prove their chops to be accepted in certain circles. I do not say this to be combative or negative, simply stating the reality. The best leaders (i.e. those getting paid) in my opinion are the ones who try to allow everyone to have some fun along with playing good music; and those who make everyone feel welcome, not just their buddies or the other "ringers" who participate... my two cents... peg |
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07 Jan 00 - 11:20 AM (#159559) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Liz the Squeak The best session leader is one who keeps his nose out of what people are doing, doesn't criticise or condemn and just makes sure that the gaps between tunes are not too long - bit like the ole Mudcat here..... the cracq here has to be some of the best I've ever participated in... LTS |
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07 Jan 00 - 02:11 PM (#159619) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Lady McMoo I think I'm with Alison on this one. I've been playing in sessions for some 25 years and the best ones have always been the unpaid ones where a (usually) regular crowd turns up and anyone is free and welcome to join in. Unfortunately these seem to be on the decrease. Where I live now (Brussels) several promising sessions were destroyed by landlords paying some people (not necessarily the best musicians and who subsequently got on their high horse excluding others, etc.) and not others. After some years we have managed to get a "normal" session going again on an occasional basis where everybody is free to join in as an equal. Don't get me wrong, I like a paid gig as well as the next musician but a gig is a gig and a session is a session IMHO. All the best. mcmoo |
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07 Jan 00 - 03:26 PM (#159650) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Liam's Brother Going back over 25 years ago in NYC, there was only 1 session. You went to it if you wanted to play or sing with other people. The money raised went to the Irish Arts Center. As the music became more popular and as this 1 session begat others, the resources were strained. People started being paid to start or lead sessions because the sponsoring organization or the bar owner needs to know that 1 or more people would be present at the appointed hour. Essentially, it became a job. Therefore, it was not surprising that people started being paid. For me, going to any session is always a matter of whether I want to be there or not. I turn down some paid offers but I also sing for free when I want. I've been paid to lead many sessions that brought in up to 20 other singers and musicians. At the same time, I've sat for 2 hours (before "relief" arrived) at what was supposed to be a session with one other person and have basically done a long, non-stop concert. I don't think there's anything wrong with people being paid to sing and play. It would be more difficult to accept if you routinely attend a session and are never offered money... but there can be many reasons for that.
All the best,
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07 Jan 00 - 06:38 PM (#159719) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: the guy in the corner Yes Skipjack, I agree about being paid. I know plenty about the Sloop sessions in Barton on Humber, they are fine and anarchic. Even though you sometimes blast everyone away with your Bugari! anarchy is the first requirement of a good session, otherwise it just becomes another showcase for the best ones. I also agree about long songs in Am, but the sarnies aren't THAT good. Anyone within 50 miles of Barton on Humber (it's the town at the south end of the Humber Bridge) should make a detour on a Tuesday night, the crack is often great, and you can see Skipjack AND the guy in the corner! |
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07 Jan 00 - 10:15 PM (#159785) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Petr It seems the consensus is the host should get paid. The session I started ran for over a year but it was only twice a month so it wasnt a huge commitment on the other hand, when I took a week off and not enough people showed up, I was annoyed by the pub owner messages on my machine asking if theres a session on or what, since I was paid diddly squat. Although later the guitarist and I were paid, but it changed I do attend other peoples sessions and I dont expect anything (though the beer discount or food is nice) but mainly for the love of the music. On the other hand if I have to be there, I wont do it for nothing. Ive done the 2 hour solo concert as well, its hard work. It would be nice to have a regular crowd just show up each time but often does that happen, someone has to start it. Also Isnt it a disservice to those who try to make a living from music. Im most curious on what the tradition is in Ireland. Pardon my ignorance, whats a sarnie? |
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07 Jan 00 - 10:34 PM (#159793) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: JedMarum It makes sense to pay a host or hosts to runa a session, and to provide incentives for some or all of the particpants as well. Each club wll have widely different 'payment' capabilities depending upon the draw ... but a full or partial night's pay for the host, and free or reduced beverage and/or food for some/all players is also reasonable. It doesn't take away form the fact that most players there are there for the lo ve of the song. |
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08 Jan 00 - 11:28 AM (#159925) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: TerriM Petr, a sarnie is a sandwich. Speaking as a session organiser who worked for 18 months without seeing a sandwich, a free beer or a penny I have to say that being paid would have made a big difference as to whether I kept going or not. It's a lot of work and commitment and there are few compensations beyond a love of the music which you often can't enjoy because you have one eye on your watch trying not to let the session or musician run over. There's the agony of the graveyard spot which always falls to the organiser, the booked act who doesn't turn up; or they do and the audience don't, the prima donna's,those who insist on a 97 verse song at the very end of night etc.etc. There's also a lot of fun of course but on the whole, only a good healthy bribe would induce me back into it. |
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08 Jan 00 - 02:24 PM (#159992) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Rob Maxtone Graham Hi, Folks -- one of the best led sessions I know (The Antiquary, Edinburgh, Thursdays), rotates its leaders, to give all the best players a shot at the dosh; all musicians get a free pint and the organiser gets wedged for spreading flyers etc. This allows improving musicians an occasional shot at leading a session - often co-opted at the last minute, when someone cries off. One of the problems with rural sessions (and country pubs often have the best atmospheres) is the ol' drink-drive. Seek out pubs with cheap rooms, and work a deal with the landlord for musos to get a special rate - they'll usually drink the difference, anyway! If, like me, you've got kids, sometimes it's the only way to attend sessions. Any body out there know any good Scots/UK pubs? |
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08 Jan 00 - 04:15 PM (#160034) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: the guy in the corner Rob, there's a very good session goes on every Tuesday at the Sloop Inn, Barton on Humber, North Lincs. See my previous message on this thread. All welcome, total anarchy, no leaders, no stars, frequent unexpected guests & a good balance between instrumentals and vocals. Sarnies are OK, nut no money changes hands. Around here that never happens at sessions, except at folk festivals. Hope to see any new musicians/singers there, anytime. |
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08 Jan 00 - 04:53 PM (#160060) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: skipjack Guy in the corner, the sarnies are bloody good when they're your total Tuesday calorific intake, mate! Ask John the fiddler! BTW, which corner, there's a miserable sod in each one! And the cheap shot about my Bugari (which is getting pretty sick) cost you a pint of Ridings. Skipjack |
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09 Jan 00 - 12:50 PM (#160364) Subject: RE: Getting Paid to Run a session From: Liz the Squeak Spotted Dog pub, Upton Lane, Forest Gate, London E7, every Thursday at about 9.00pm. Great pub, child tolerant (garden in the summer), good beer, grumpy barmaids but the two (yes, count them, TWO) blokes they had running two bars on the day before Christmas Eve, were OK. No freebies, no grub and the biggest bags of crisps I've ever seen.... LTS |