Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV-2

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Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV-2

02 Oct 20 - 12:09 PM (#4074060)
Subject: Constitutional Questions Trump SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

The US is quite possibly facing a unique constitutional crisis in the coming weeks. We have some particularly good news analysis sources for content for such a discussion, and newspapers abroad (I'm thinking of The Guardian) will also provide helpful insight.

PBS Newshour

Washington Week In Review

Rachel Madddow Show on MSNBC

are places to start. Maddow is on a cable channel so you might want to look and subscribe to her YouTube channel that plays clips from the program the night before.

The U.S. Constitution is clear on the question of succession, but we live in complicated times with Mitch McConnell as the puppetmaster who largely enables Trumps outrageous activity because he is able to get the kind of legislation that he, as a die-hard GOP member, desires. No less than the dismantling of the Great Society measures put in place particularly during the Johnson administration.

Please stay on topic. Insults and smears will be deleted.

02 Oct 20 - 12:13 PM (#4074061)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: DMcG

I asked on another thread what the position is on mail-in ballots that have already been cast if Trump withdraws for any reason. This may be a better place for any responses.

02 Oct 20 - 12:30 PM (#4074065)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I also updated the USPS thread to do with Trump's Postmaster General. Here in Texas the governor just ordered that each county may have only one drop-off point for mail-in ballots. This is in contrast to states that routinely do mail-in voting and have dozens or hundreds of drop-off points per city, county, etc.

The post office is mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. Trump can't officially kill it off, but he has certainly managed to tie it into tight knots.

02 Oct 20 - 12:44 PM (#4074066)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: EBarnacle

I certainly hope he stays as capable as he can be to get voted out. After that, if he becomes too sick to continue, Pence can take over for him through January 20. Of course, given his medical history, he might just have a recurrence of hypochondriasis and be incapacitated.

02 Oct 20 - 02:09 PM (#4074077)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Jeri

On the news, they were speculating about how this will affect Amy Coney Barrettt's nomination to the SCOTUS.

02 Oct 20 - 02:11 PM (#4074078)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

If Trump and Pence both get very sick, it’s not clear who would be president

It remains unlikely, but hardly unthinkable, that President Trump and Vice President Pence could simultaneously come down with serious cases of covid-19 — especially after two prominent White House aides recently tested positive for the coronavirus. We have already seen one head of government, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, incapacitated by covid-19 and sent to an intensive care unit.

Both men are in high-risk groups: Trump is 73 and overweight; Pence is 60. (Johnson, in contrast, is a comparatively youthful 55.) If they were “ordinary” people, the protocol would be for the two men to place themselves in self-quarantine for two weeks, yet they have not done so.

When Johnson was hospitalized, he deputized his foreign minister to act as prime minister in his absence. Should only the president become ill, then the vice president can take over, following the protocol laid out in the 25th Amendment. But if the vice president becomes incapacitated as well, then we could face a constitutional crisis. It would be triggered by the inadequacies of the Presidential Succession Act passed in 1947 (when there was no vice president, because Harry Truman had succeeded Franklin D. Roosevelt).

Article II of the Constitution grants Congress the right to “provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President” — and the 1947 act is the current result. Under its rules, the speaker of the House and the president pro tempore of the Senate would be next in the line of succession, followed by the members of the Cabinet, beginning with the secretary of state.

02 Oct 20 - 02:14 PM (#4074080)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I hope Amy Coney Barrett has the good sense to self-isolate and get the test, since she was in the company of Trump et al this week. But McConnell is probably pulling strings in the background trying to get one last appointment.

From CNN, the list of who is in the succession, Speaker of House through the Cabinet members.

02 Oct 20 - 03:12 PM (#4074090)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: meself

From what I just heard some know-it-all saying on TV, it is the Electors who ultimately decide who becomes president, so if there is confusion over early ballots for or against a candidate who will prove to be out of the picture, etc., the Electors will deal with it (not getting into court challenges).

03 Oct 20 - 05:37 AM (#4074121)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Bonzo3legs

Can't you just drop off your ballot papers under the X in Texas???

03 Oct 20 - 09:24 AM (#4074142)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Jeri

Since the last posting in this thread, Trump was (about 6:15 PM) taken on Marine 1 to Walter Reed. There's an office he can work from, and they can administer advanced medical care, should he need it. It's expected he'll be there a few days. He hasn't signed over his duties to Pence.

03 Oct 20 - 11:30 AM (#4074170)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: meself

"It's expected he'll be there a few days." It's also expected that we'll believe any BS statement from a WH lackey. I highly doubt that any credible doctor involved is making that kind of a prognosis. Although, to be fair, I suppose a few days is what the statistics would indicate.

03 Oct 20 - 02:41 PM (#4074181)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Joe Offer

My stepson is an instructor pilot, and he doesn't really believe in all this COVID stuff (and he's backing Trump). My wife and I take the virus seriously and do our best to follow the precautions - but we're living with this person who doesn't. He's a bit of a recluse and spends most of his time in his room, but still I worry that he'll bring the coronavirus home from his students.

Even if Trump's associates follow precautions, they're spending a lot of time with people who don't care. It's a bad situation.

-Joe-

03 Oct 20 - 03:04 PM (#4074183)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I'll share a CNN link since not everyone can read the Washington Post (though it's cheap enough to subscribe - $4 a month if you already have Amazon Prime).

White House sows confusion about Trump's condition as source tells reporters next 48 hours will be critical

(CNN)An attempt by President Donald Trump's doctor to reassure the public about Trump's condition following his infection with Covid-19 only created widespread confusion and concerns about transparency on Saturday, as a source familiar with the President's health told reporters that the next 48 hours will be critical in determining how he fares.

"The President's vitals over the last 24 hours were very concerning and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care. We are still not on a clear path to a full recovery," the source told White House pool reporters after the briefing from his doctors.

Moments earlier on Saturday morning, the President's physician, Navy Cmdr. Dr. Sean Conley, had offered an upbeat assessment of the President's condition stating that he was feeling well, that he had been "fever-free" for 24 hours and that his symptoms -- which included an "extremely mild cough," nasal congestion and fatigue -- "are resolving and improving." Conley was evasive about when and if Trump had received supplemental oxygen, saying, "He is not on oxygen."

But a source close to the White House said Trump has received supplemental oxygen since his illness began. Trump "definitely has had oxygen," the source said, adding that it was on Friday.

The New York Times first reported the oxygen development. CNN reported on Friday the President was having a hard time breathing.

The rest is at the link.

03 Oct 20 - 07:19 PM (#4074217)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Even if Trump's associates follow precautions" - very clearly they aren't. Every picture you see of them they are almost without exception standing much closer together than six feet, and wearing no masks.

03 Oct 20 - 09:33 PM (#4074226)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Joe Offer

Just had a wonderful The Donald version of "The Emperor's New Clothes" at the concert at the Getaway. Certainly appropriate.

But now I cannot un-see the idea of a naked Donald Trump.

-Joe-

04 Oct 20 - 02:53 PM (#4074311)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

Knowing what the Constitutional status is for the vice president (should Pence stay in D.C., should he go to the White House, etc., to be available if needed) is hard to guess with all of the misdirection the public is getting from the various White House and Walter Reed spokes-people.

One source says Trump might return to the White House on Monday, other say he's still receiving the monoclonal antibody treatment for lung issues and his oxygen level dipped over the weekend.

Just before hitting "submit message" I looked at the New York Times, with this article:

"Trump’s oxygen levels dropped and he was given dexamethasone, potentially signaling a ‘severe’ case of Covid-19."

Steroids now.

05 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM (#4074414)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I'm seeing people express skepticism that Trump is ill at all, that this is some kind of stunt. But that doesn't make sense either. His behavior is deplorable, taking a ride in an airtight car with Secret Service because he was "bored."

News says he may be discharged today, and news also talks about risky treatments that are usually reserved for the most ill patients on ventilators. The cause may be the V.I.P. status of this patient, who is calling the shots even with no medical knowledge.

What is ‘VIP Syndrome’? Trump’s COVID-19 diagnosis underscores challenge of treating famous patients

05 Oct 20 - 01:55 PM (#4074423)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: meself

It's all just speculation, since we can't believe a word that's being said by the powers-that-be. trump could be faking it or he could be dying - who knows? If Dr Fauci gets in front of the camera and tells us something, I'll believe it - until then, though, it's anyone's guess.

05 Oct 20 - 02:23 PM (#4074428)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: mayomick

the Guardian reports a Vanity Fair source about possible ssplits within the Trump household : Don Jr wants to make an"intervention" but not on his own. Ivanka and Jared are both telling the president that he is doing fine
White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany has tested positive for coronavirus
New York Times reported last night that steroids, which Trump is reportedly taking, specifically dexamethasone, are known to ‘affect mood, causing euphoria or a general happiness’. A possible consequence has been the manic all-cap tweeting from Trump today

05 Oct 20 - 03:46 PM (#4074434)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Bonzo3legs

Donald Trump had caught Covid 19. Our thoughts are with the virus at this difficult time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

05 Oct 20 - 10:48 PM (#4074451)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

So The Donald got his way and against all common sense went back to the White House where he climbed some stairs to a balcony for the entrance they apparently wanted him to use, and huffing and puffing from the slight exertion, took off his mask and walked indoors. To infect anyone who is still in the building.

Maybe he drove a few nails in his coffin with the trip back to the White House. Whether he signs over authority or the VP takes it when Trump is hospitalized again, we'll have to see.

06 Oct 20 - 07:21 AM (#4074476)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: DMcG

I suspect it is very unlikely Trump will be hospitalised again - he will fight against it until he drops, I think. On the other hand we could see more equipment being installed in the White House while we continue to get messages about how well he is doing.

Whether he takes part in the next debate could be critical (in several senses.)

06 Oct 20 - 07:35 AM (#4074480)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: gillymor

I hope he does debate again. Biden got a tremendous bump due to trump's ooc perfomance at the first one. A just-released CNN poll has Biden up 16 points. It was conducted Oct.1-4 so all this bullshit at Walter Reed probably damaged him as well.
trump said after returning to the White House "Don't let COVID rule your life" and "I feel 20 years younger" what he didn't say was "I have access to a phalanx of medical experts and an arsenal of medicines that the rest of you losers and your families can only dream about".

06 Oct 20 - 08:40 AM (#4074488)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

Testing and contact tracing will have to be part of the regimen now that Trump has SARS-CoV-2, and events will be called off if he's positive. I suspect the debate on Wednesday between Harris and Pence is the last one we'll see. The COVID-19 case numbers are increasing now that it's cooler out. Hospital discharge not well received by doctors.

Who would go near the "super spreader?" Including Pence, and by that same token, I think after this debate he'll have to stay close by.

06 Oct 20 - 09:25 AM (#4074491)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: gillymor

I'd like to see the debates conducted with the candidates at separate locations that wouldn't require travel. Set them up in their own residences. This would minimize COVID risk and it would be easier to tamp down trump's disruptive behavior. He might even say something of substance but I doubt that.

07 Oct 20 - 06:18 AM (#4074595)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: gillymor

The WH is not allowing the CDC to conduct contract tracing among their people.

07 Oct 20 - 09:32 AM (#4074606)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Donuel

My favorite infected nazi so far is Steve Miller.

As for Trump and the Constitution, the twain has never met.
There is talk that Donald's 'competancy' is affected by steroids.
He is therfore going to take a made for TV mental competancy test.
Donald has chosen the catagory of a chili cook off to prove his sanity.

07 Oct 20 - 09:56 AM (#4074608)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: gillymor

And the infected Miller's charming wife mocked Sen. Harris for negotiating plexiglass panels at the debate tonight that her boss, Pence, should not even be attending considering his maskless proximity to all those infected people at the Rose Garden event.

07 Oct 20 - 12:10 PM (#4074637)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I've thinned the banter here. There are numerous threads around (this one, for example) for Trump chatter, lets keep this one to actual discussion of laws that are impacted, broken, or called into use because of the Trump presidency and the Biden response. Especially since Trump is vulnerable health-wise.

08 Oct 20 - 06:15 PM (#4074791)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

Trump is trying to push back the dates for the final two presidential debates because the commission on debates has stated that the next debate would be virtual. Trump doesn't want to do that (probably because he can't interrupt, they'll turn off his mic). He wants the dates changed, but as the Biden camp responded, the dates aren't up to Trump, they're up to the bipartisan commission. I suspect we'll be spared the embarrassment of further debates.

Trump is also suggesting that the case of COVID-19 he came down with was from an event the day after the Super-Spreader event, a gold-star-parents reception that is for the families of fallen military. Of course he'd like to take the pressure off of his supreme court nomination process.

The question remains, even though he's wandering around the White House un-masked and loopy from his steroids, the White House is a hot spot and few people are going into work right now. We don't know how often he is being tested and when he will received a clean bill of health. Everything SHOULD be on hold and he should stay put until that time.

09 Oct 20 - 10:44 AM (#4074842)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Mrrzy

Pelosi is starting something about the 25th amendment. Many sources, google Pelosi 25th.

09 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM (#4074856)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I heard that last night on MSNBC. I suspect this story will be featured in Maddow's program, if Pelosi has made progress during the last 24 hours. And who knows - it might make Trump so angry he'll blow an aneurysm.

10 Oct 20 - 04:20 PM (#4075045)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

"A surreal reality show:" Trump's terrible week after his Covid diagnosis

And today he has another Super Spreader event going at the White House. The city of Washington, D.C., has been fighting to lower the numbers, but Trump is making it worse.

13 Oct 20 - 10:45 AM (#4075390)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Donuel

I was just thinking how many lives are saved by an attentive ER physician. If it is as many as one per shift it might be 300 lives saved per year and in 10 years maybe 3,000 saved lives.

If Trump's deliberate anti mask efforts cost 10 lives per day and the infection follows an exponential path, about 300,000+ lives are lost.

He isn't negligent , he is guilty of mayhem, manslaughter and murder with pre meditation since we have Bob Woodward tapes showing he knows precisely how deadly the pandemic is. If he thinks he is selling hope it is irrelevant. All his snake oil cures won't bring bring back the dead or prove his innocence of culpability.

I think his old campaign song of 'you can't always get what you want' should be changed to 'don't fear the reaper'.

13 Oct 20 - 10:51 AM (#4075391)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Donuel

Can he be tried for murder constitutionaly? No, he can only be censured, impeached, replaced or assa****ted like any President.

13 Oct 20 - 11:34 AM (#4075399)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

Perhaps one of the UN organizations will charge him with a high crime.

14 Oct 20 - 10:44 AM (#4075498)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

He appears to be playing fast and loose with the news media - NBC will broadcast a pop-up town hall meeting on Thursday (opposite the Biden event scheduled last week after the debate was cancelled). They need assurances that he is no longer contagious; the test results the White House has provided are one that can be manipulated to show he's okay without his actually being completely okay. Any other test results in a sequence of tests they refuse to share. I don't consider Savanah Guthrie a powerhouse moderator—she suits the Thanksgiving Day parade very well though, so perhaps she's perfect for the Trump event.

15 Oct 20 - 09:53 AM (#4075573)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Donuel

Over 10 million ballots have already been cast.
Thats CAST - not- counted.

16 Oct 20 - 11:57 AM (#4075671)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

I looked yesterday, my mail in ballot shows as received but still "pending." I don't know when they'll start approving and counting.

17 Oct 20 - 09:22 AM (#4075756)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Donuel

In the last 20 years only a third of my votes for President were actually counted.

21,287,665 early votes were cast at this time.

17 Oct 20 - 11:22 AM (#4075762)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Backwoodsman

”In the last 20 years only a third of my votes for President were actually counted.”

How do you know this?

17 Oct 20 - 12:36 PM (#4075766)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

At this point I can tell if my vote is counted (it was a mail-in ballot) but I don't know if I'll know in time to act if my ballot is rejected. I can't imagine this information goes back very far (because usually I go to early voting and it will only show THAT I voted.) Do you always vote by mail?

18 Oct 20 - 04:31 PM (#4075870)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Backwoodsman

I’ll ask again (because here in the U.K. we have no way of knowing if our votes have been counted - it’s a secret ballot! The clue’s in the name! - how do you know if your vote has been counted?

19 Oct 20 - 07:46 AM (#4075943)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: McGrath of Harlow

I've always assumed my vote has been counted, as well as everybody else's. Maybe we're unduly optimistic here in the EU and the ex-Eu. I suppose there might be cases where ballot boxes get missing.

Is there some process in the USA where there's a record you can consult which tells you if your vote has been counted? I suppose it'd be possible to have a record of votes that were rejected, but that's a different issue.

19 Oct 20 - 10:54 AM (#4075972)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

The absentee ballots arrive in an official envelope and when you open it you have instructions (detailed, and sometimes in three or four languages), the ballot, and two envelopes. You mark the ballot then seal it in the inside envelope, making no identifying marks on it at all. This is slipped into a slightly larger different colored envelope with lots of instructions on the back, telling you to seal it and then sign it in the space that has you writing your name across the line of the seal. This has a bar code indicating it's from you. Put on the proper postage and mail it. When it arrives back it is scanned to show it came from you, and then the officials compare your signature across the seal to your voter registration application. My application was a long time ago and my signature has changed, but I hope not so much that they can still tell it's me - this is where a lot of them are rejected, if the envelope isn't signed, or signed incorrectly.

Once it is approved the outer envelope is removed and the undistinguishable inner ballot envelope is added to the pool of returned by mail ballots that will be opened and counted at the appropriate time.

They hold onto them pending the signature approval, or to the day when they are authorized to do this work and start counting ballots. That's why it says "pending" now. And that's why counties know if ballots have been cast going back years, if they kept the records. It just shows that you voted, not how you voted. But people are usually registered in political parties, so there is a big clue.

19 Oct 20 - 11:40 AM (#4075980)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Backwoodsman

So how do you know it’s pending? And how do you know when it’s counted? How do you find out?

25 Oct 20 - 05:01 PM (#4076817)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

Five of Pence's people have tested positive for COVID-19 but he's still out making appearances. Super-spreader events as the numbers climb steeply higher are an embarrassment in the face of what we know actually works to slow the spread.

Trump and Pence ignore Covid-19 risk even as it spreads among inner circle

And his chief of staff has as much as said that they're not trying to contain the virus. At all.

27 Oct 20 - 05:04 PM (#4077035)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

Well, they did it. They put conservative Amy on the Supreme Court. When the senate didn't take up Obama's nomination 10 months prior to the election in 2016, they broke faith with how the appointment process is supposed to go, stealing that seat from Obama. McConnell will be examined and vilified for decades to come, and the consequence is that Biden would be wise to expand the court. I look forward to that discussion.

27 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM (#4077036)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: DMcG

And they have apparently said Wisconsin votes after Nov 3 are not to be counted. And it seems the Republicans also want the ruling on Pennslyvania to be re-assessed now the supreme Court is back up to 9.

27 Oct 20 - 11:23 PM (#4077063)
Subject: RE: Constitutional Questions re Trump has SARS-CoV2
From: Stilly River Sage

The Voting Rights Act needs to be restored, and the Abortion availability needs to codified by congress, and then all of our needs won't be in limbo as the court sways from right to left to right again. Biden's first two years are going to rival the Great Society of LBJ.