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04 Nov 20 - 05:25 PM (#4078244) Subject: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: GUEST,Rahere Now yes, I know RVW collected it in Norfolk, made a set of 5 variations on it in classical orchestral form, and the rest, but it remains a niggle, that some Victorian's taken a decent tune and wiped the words out, putting something "learnèd" and biblical and worthy in their place. A cross between Christina Rosetti and the Reverend Bowdler. I can't help but want to use a metrical equivalent, John Barleycorn, instead! Any other ideas, though? What other words could have been used? |
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04 Nov 20 - 07:04 PM (#4078254) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: GUEST,Jerry Not sure what you’re actually asking here, but the basic melody has been used in numerous folk songs from The Unquiet Grave to The Star of the County Down, plus some gospel songs and hymns, ad I recall. |
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05 Nov 20 - 03:40 PM (#4078372) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Steve Gardham 'some Victorian's taken a decent tune and wiped the words out, putting something "learnèd" and biblical and worthy in their place.' Really? How do you know that the 16th century versions of D&L weren't using that tune? Whatever the tune they used the well-known ballad predates Victorian times. |
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11 Nov 20 - 10:56 AM (#4079193) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: The Doctor I have copies of this ballad in four different books, all of which agree that it was first seen in print in 1558. However, the only one to quote the tune in question is the Oxfor Book of Carols, and then only as an alternative. It was set by RVW to the hymn 'I heard the voice of jesus say' (words H Bonar 1808-89), along with many other folk tunes he used when he edited the English Hymnal in 1906. This can also happen in the opposite direction. I was once singing 'The Blacksmith' to its usual tune, and a lady got up and walked out, muttering darkly about the sacrilage of using a hymn tune for a folk song. Personally I think it's a great tune and you sing which ever words appeal to you. |
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11 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM (#4079202) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Joe Offer Hi, Doctor. Your point is well made. If a hymn works with a folk melody, why not? What hymn goes to the tune of"The Blacksmith," or vice versa? The story is often told of how the comic lyrics of "Ilkley Moor" made a laughingstock of a perfectly good hymn. And why not? |
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11 Nov 20 - 11:59 AM (#4079208) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: GUEST,RA I remember reading somewhere a long time ago (not sure where and I can't find the source just now) that the common 'Dives and Lazarus' melody was part of a very ancient pan-European tune family and that there were, for example, tunes in Romania etc with related melodies... anyone know anything about that? |
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11 Nov 20 - 01:02 PM (#4079219) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Newport Boy AL Lloyd in 'Folk Song in England', immediately after discussing 'Dives & Lazarus' in depth, goes on to a discussion of tunes migrating between countries. He cites an unnamed tune found 'in a Rumanian funeral lament, a Hungarian love song, a Dutch hymn, a Spanish ballad and a highwayman song sung by an elderly couple...in Sussex'. I don'r recall anything more specific than that. |
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11 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM (#4079238) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: GUEST,Dave Hunt the tune for Ilkley Moor is one of the many tunes used in the Sheffield Carols for 'While Shepherds Watched' |
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11 Nov 20 - 03:23 PM (#4079248) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Joe Offer Hi, Dave - the tune used for "Ilkley Moor" is CRANBROOK. The oldest lyrics to the tune are Grace, 'Tis a Charming Sound. That's the one that's no longer used since the advent of "Ilkley Moor." "While Shepherds Watched" is still sung to CRANBROOK. I'm surprised that CRANBOOK is not used in any of the hymns in The English Hymnal -Joe- |
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12 Nov 20 - 05:29 AM (#4079336) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: The Doctor Hi Joe The tune for 'The Blacksmith' is in hymnbooks under the name of Monksgate, which as far as I remember was the village where it was collected. It was slightly adapted by RVW and set to the words 'Who would true valour see/He who would valiant be', also known as The Pilgrim Hymn. Incidentally, RVW used nearly 50 English trad melodies in the English Hymnal, of which I have identified about 10, including The Bold Fisherman and The Ploughboy's Dream. If anyone can add any more to this list I'd be interested. |
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14 Nov 20 - 04:34 AM (#4079564) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: The Sandman ah, a grumbling old woman, she was possibly suffering from digestive problems, some people are just grumblers, and Doctor you might have just been unlucky enough to run in to a grumbler, perhaps she needed the services of dyna rod. I hope you are keeping well Doctor |
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14 Nov 20 - 05:50 AM (#4079570) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: The Doctor Thank you Sandman, I am still here, alive and kicking, if more feebly than once. All this has reminded me that I also sing two songs to the tune called St Denis in the hymnbooks, where it is set to 'Immortal, invisible', and given as a Welsh hymn tune, though Mary Humphreys thinks it was originally a dance tune. The songs, btw, are Bold Princess Royal and The Wimbourne Valentine, which latter song no-one at the Wimbourne Folk Club had heard of. |
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14 Nov 20 - 07:05 AM (#4079581) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Jack Campin It's sad that so few religious folksongs survived the Reformation. Southern European folk music is full of them, and Biblical folktales are common in mediaeval English poetry. Rather than a product of Victorian censoriousness, Dives and Lazarus is a rare survival of Elizabethan repression. |
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16 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM (#4079833) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Joe Offer Sure enough, here's a recording of "He Who Would Valiant Be" (The Pilgrim Hymn): Do I understand correctly that it was written by John Bunyan, author of Pilgrim's Progress? And yes, it's the melody I know for "The Blacksmith." -Joe- Here are the notes from the video. The tune and lyrics were not coupled together until the early 20th century:
The words were modified extensively by Percy Dearmer for the 1906 The English Hymnal. At the same time it was given a new tune by British composer Vaughan Williams using the traditional Sussex melody "Monk's Gate". The hymn has also been sung to the melody "Moab" (John Roberts, 1870) and St. Dunstans (Charles W. Douglas, 1917). Bunyan's original version is not commonly sung in churches today, perhaps because of the references to "hobgoblin" and "foul fiend." However, one commentator has said: "Bunyan's burly song strikes a new and welcome note in our Hymnal. The quaint sincerity of the words stirs us out of our easygoing dull Christianity to the thrill of great adventure." The hymn's refrain "to be a pilgrim" has entered the language and has been used in the title of a number of books dealing with pilgrimage in a literal or spiritual sense. |
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16 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM (#4079849) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Brian Peters Vaughan Williams actually collected the tune he used for 'He Who Would Valiant Be' with the song 'Our Captain Calls All Hands', though it's also used for 'The Blacksmith'. It was my favourite hymn at school precisely because of the goblins and foul fiends. Much more fun than angels in the realms of glory. |
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17 Nov 20 - 01:30 PM (#4079969) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Tattie Bogle Hobgoblins I think, Brian! I loved that line too! |
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18 Nov 20 - 09:13 AM (#4080064) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Brian Peters 'Hobgoblins I think, Brian!' I stand corrected. Are they a higher rank than ordinary goblins? Kind of like the uruk-hai? |
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18 Nov 20 - 01:34 PM (#4080117) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Tattie Bogle Probably! Googled it: "While a goblin is traditionally regarded in folklore as a grotesque, evil, and malicious creature, a hobgoblin tends to be more about creating mischief. ... First appearing in English in 1530, "hobgoblin" combined "goblin" with "hob," a word meaning "sprite" or "elf" that derived from "Hobbe," a nickname for Robert." |
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18 Nov 20 - 05:05 PM (#4080140) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: GerryM "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...." Ralph Waldo Emerson. |
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19 Nov 20 - 08:53 AM (#4080211) Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus From: Brian Peters Fascinating! |