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21 Jan 21 - 03:29 PM (#4089134) Subject: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,JackOSiochain Hi all, I'm a PhD researcher from Dublin, Ireland and I'm working on a project about connections between folk music (particularly Irish, but also US and English/Scottish etc.) and political movements and currents of the 1950s/60s and early 70s. I stumbled upon this forum today while looking for more info about Joe Mulheron and "The Men of No Property", and I have to say it's a mine of useful information and interesting tid bits. I thought I'd introduce myself and ask if anyone might have any stories or bits and pieces of interest. To be frank with you, Covid had locked me out of every archive I need for the last year, and I'm trying to get creative! I've been doing a few interviews and other bits and pieces, too. I've cast a pretty wide net, but the four main chapters of the PhD will be about: 1. Alan Lomax and other US music collectors in Ireland in the 1950s 2. The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem in NYC in the 50s/60s and the making of a new Irish "Trad" genre. 3. The Dubliners/Luke Kelly, their politics (particularly left and Irish Republican) and Luke's influences from his time in Britain. 4. The 1969 "Liberation Fleadh" (also called the "Freedom Fleadh") that took place in Derry city during the very start of the Troubles, and involved among others, the Dubliners and Tommy Makem. As far as what's not mentioned there, some of the people I'm very interesting in include Ewan MacColl, Dominic Behan, Dianne Hamilton (Guggenheim), Seamus Ennis, A.L. "Bert" Lloyd, Jean Ritchie and anyone who bridged the gap between music and left or Irish Republican politics. And if anyone knows anything about Tradition Records I am all ears, believe me! There's a bit in archives, a bit in recordings, a bit in liner notes and other places, but this world of folk music I've discovered, is really alive in the stories that everyone seems to have of it. I'd really appreciate any help that anyone could give. Thanks! Jack |
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21 Jan 21 - 05:19 PM (#4089137) Subject: RE: Folklore: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Felipa Joe Mulheron is living in Derry and has a pub called Sandinos. Of course it is closed at present. I should be able to get a phone numberfor you; also Sandinos has a facebook page. In 2019 there was a commemoration of the Liberation Fleadh. Donal Clancy and the Makem Brothers (sons of Liam Clancy and Tommy Makem) both performed at it. Your net is very wide indeed (and there's a few folk mentioned whom I don't think of being particularly political). And there are people in the Mudcat circle who would have known Ewan MacColl, Jean Ritchie and others. There are lots of other groups you could contact, for instance The Ballad Forum and Cecil Sharp House for info re Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd and perhaps re song collectors from the US who came to Ireland and Britain. People associated with the Irish Arts Center in NY may have recollections of the Clancys and Tommy Makem in the 1960s or be able to put you in touch with their elders who have info. There are several interviews with Tommy and some of the Clancy brothers on youtube, by the way. I remember Dominic Behan visited N.Y. I think he may have stayed with Brian Heron who was active in both the Irish Arts Center/An Claidheamh Soluis and the National Association for Irish Freedom, a NICRA support group. Funny, what I remember about meeting Dominic circa 1969-70 was that he had an lp of Billy Connolly he wanted to play for us. Some people associated with the various traditional singing circles such as An Goilín in Dublin and Derry Traditional Singers Circle would have plenty of oral history for you also. What university are you at and which dept. are you enrolled in? You haven't given any contact details. If you register as a member of Mudcat, people will be able to p-mail you. Perhaps your thesis will be all the much better for you being locked out of archives! |
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21 Jan 21 - 08:35 PM (#4089142) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: meself Jean Ritchie was a member here ("kentuckytrad") - if you become a member, you'll be able to review her posts. I don't know if she ever said much here about her Irish experience, but she may have. |
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21 Jan 21 - 09:05 PM (#4089148) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: cnd Jack, I agree with Felipa's recommendations. I noticed you're looking for earlier stuff, but if it's of use I have found the lyrics to an obscure song about the 1979 Warrenpoint ambush from the IRA perspective; there was a thread about it here but it's since been closed. I have obvious reasons for not wanting to share it with disreputable parties, but if you have a use for it and provide some authentication I could share it with you. Aside from that I personally have very little to add to help you with your search. |
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21 Jan 21 - 09:40 PM (#4089150) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GerryM I think Jean Ritchie posted under the screen name kytrad. Even if you're not a member here, typing kytrad site:mudcat.org into Google should work and bring up some/many/all of her posts. |
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22 Jan 21 - 02:33 AM (#4089165) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman Jean has died, you should contact jim carroll, he is no longer a member , if you contact me at dickmiles77atgmail.com i can pass on contact details |
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22 Jan 21 - 02:39 AM (#4089166) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman as regards tradtion records frank hamilton is a member hrre, he might be able to help , if you become a member you could message him. as regards MacColl you should contact peggy seeger , jim caroll would have a contact. |
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22 Jan 21 - 02:40 AM (#4089167) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman Bob Davenport, is another possibilty, jim bainbridge might have a contact he posts here |
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22 Jan 21 - 03:04 AM (#4089168) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman Try. Reg Hall |
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22 Jan 21 - 04:21 AM (#4089172) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,JackOSiochain I have to say, I wasn't expecting such an amazing response! Thank you all for all these suggestions, I'm going to follow up on all of them. I'm emailed to register an account so that I can send and receive messages. My apologies, I should have said, I'm at the history department at Trinity College Dublin. I have a bio here , though on my project it's a little out of date. To clarify a little on the "politics" angle, you're right that some of the figures wouldn't have considered themselves political. I suppose in some ways I'm trying to talk about a wide politics beyond very straightforward parties or activism (though of course I'm talking about them too!), to the ways that folk music served as a vector for international social and political trends. If that doesn't make much sense, don't worry, I've been trying to figure it out for two years now! |
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22 Jan 21 - 06:31 AM (#4089189) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,John Moulden PhD writing around this subject - May McCann, Queen's University Belfast - Katrin Pietzonka, University of Leipzig - a few articles also Bill Roulston (?retired Prof of Sociology, Ulster University) - I lived through most of this - some information on www.moulden.org - contact details also. Much of my very approximate refs are in ITMA. |
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22 Jan 21 - 07:21 AM (#4089198) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Jack Campin What about the Scottish left, who often had links with the scene you're looking at? Arthur Johnstone is still around to ask. |
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22 Jan 21 - 07:24 AM (#4089199) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,Man of Letters Since the projected studies extend beyond Ireland, you might like to consult the archive of political songs formerly kept by Norman and Jenny Buchan, now held in the School of Cultural Studies at Glasgow University. Don't expect to meet any working-class people there, though. |
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22 Jan 21 - 09:01 AM (#4089223) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Felipa That would be Bill Rolston, who is a singer on the side. There is also a Bill Roulston who studies local history, Ulster Historical Foundation. I've been at some of his talks and if he has an interest in traditonal or folk music, it didn't come up in discussion. |
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22 Jan 21 - 09:47 AM (#4089231) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp Diane Hamilton was the pseudonym of Diane Guggenheim (1924–1991), an American mining heiress, folksong patron and founder of "Tradition Records". In 1955 she traveled to Ireland in search of folk singers. According to Liam Clancy's book*, she became acquainted with Tom and Paddy Clancy in New York, and while in Ireland made the Clancy household one of the stops on her collecting trip. Young Liam was invited to continue on the trip with her, and one of the next stops was the home of Sarah Makem who had previously been recorded by Jean Ritchie on her album Field Trip (1954). This fateful meeting brought together Liam and Sarah's younger son, Tommy Makem, who was also recorded. These two, along with Liam's older brothers Paddy and Tom Clancy, would eventually form "The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem", one of the most successful groups in Irish music history. The anthology Hamilton recorded in 1955 as The Lark in the Morning is the earliest album-length collection of Irish folk songs sung by Irish singers to be recorded in Ireland. Also on the album are Paddy Tunney and Tommy Makem, son of Sarah Makem. This album was re-released in a restored format in the late 1990s on the Rykodisc label. Another member of the Clancy family, Paddy Clancy, helped Hamilton run Tradition Records as the company's president. The Lark in the Morning was the first album released on the Tradition label in 1955. Subsequent releases included The Rising of the Moon by The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, and The Countess Cathleen by W.B. Yeats in 1956. Other notable recordings include Negro Prison songs, a compilation by Alan Lomax and The Bonny Bunch of Roses with Seamus Ennis. Other Tradition artists included Ed McCurdy, Odetta, Paul Clayton, Jean Ritchie, Lightnin' Hopkins and Etta Baker. In 1959 the label released John Langstaff Sings American and English Ballads, featuring her then-current husband singing and Nancy Trowbridge (who later became Langstaff's second wife) on piano. The album was re-released by Revels Records in 2002 as The Water Is Wide: American and British Ballads and Folksongs. Once the Clancy Brothers signed with Columbia Records in 1961, the catalogue was sold, possibly to Transatlantic. In the 1970s, Hamilton was involved in the founding of the Mulligan record label, in Dublin. She may have regarded Dónal Lunny as the successor to Liam Clancy as the next standard-bearer of the authentic Irish traditional music heritage. A passing reference to Hamilton in a California folk music magazine suggests that she was still active in Irish music as late as the early 1980s. The November/December 1982 issue of Folk Scene (Los Angeles) credits her with "the lion's share of the work" for the recording, in 1977, of the album The Gathering—released on the label Greenhays in 1981—which features the playing of Andy Irvine, Paul Brady, Dónal Lunny, Matt Molloy, Tommy Potts, Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill and uilleann piper Peter Browne. (Wikipedia) * Liam Clancy: Memoirs of an Irish Troubadour Hardcover – 4 April 2002 "Liam Clancy's autobiography describes his journey from being raised as the eleventh child of a provincial Irish family in the 1930s, to living in the heart of the New York music scene of the late 50s and early 60s, at a time when Greenwich Village was the mecca for aspiring artists." |
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22 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM (#4089242) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Jack Campin Was this all the work of celebrities who appeared on TV and had recording contracts? I'm thinking of the sort of musicians who would play at rallies, marches and other politically tinged community events. I doubt the Clancys would have been any more likely to turn up at a Republican funeral than at an Orange parade. |
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22 Jan 21 - 10:37 AM (#4089245) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp The Mountain of the Women: Memoirs of an Irish Troubadour Hardcover – February 19, 2002 by Liam Clancy "As an aimless nineteen-year-old, Clancy met a strange and wonderfully energetic lover of music, Ms. Diane Guggenheim, an American heiress. She and a colleague from America had set out to record regional Irish folk music, and their undertaking led them to Carrick-on-Suir in the shadow of Slievenamon, "The Mountain of the Women," where Mammie Clancy had been known to carry a tune or two in her kitchen. Guggenheim fell for young Liam and swept him along on her travels through the British Isles, the American Appalachians, and finally Greenwich Village, the undisputed Mecca for aspiring artists of every ilk in the late 1950s." The Lark in the Morning Sleeve Notes — Original 1956 LP release This collection is meant as a glimpse into the rich tradition of Irish folk music. The songs were collected in many different places throughout Ireland from August to December 1955. Many of the songs were recorded at the home of the Makem family in Keady, Co. Armagh. There we gathered for many an evening, often starting with just a few singers, mostly family, and ending around 2:00 A.M., the house packed to overflowing with neighbors and friends from all over the surrounding countryside. Near Beleek, Co. Fermanagh, Paddy Tunney and his family sang, danced, and told tales of Irish heroes. In Macroom, Co. Cork, I recorded in a hotel and later in the rear room of a pub. In Carrick-on-Suir, Co. Tipperary, hours were spent by the winter fire exchanging good talk and songs with the Clancys. And all the time there was the tramping over fields and hills, along rough country roads in the long summer twilight, or wandering through meadows over stone walls to the hillside. I've watched the autumn come upon the Commeragh mountains in County Waterford and at Christmas-time the final winter light fill the sky along the coast. Out of this atmosphere of freshness and beauty, the happy mornings, the winter evenings, the loves and tragedies of the people has come a great wealth of songs and music, from which we can give you just a few notes in this album, "The Lark in the Morning" DIANE HAMILTON http://clancybrothersandtommymakem.com/trad_1004_lark.htm Tradition Records Discography Original LP Releases 1956 (TLP 1001-1009) 1956 (TLP 1010-1018) 1957-1959 releases 1960-1961 releases Reissues Tradition/Everest "Clancy" Compilations |
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22 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM (#4089251) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman asregards Alan L0max, you should contact Shirley Collins |
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22 Jan 21 - 10:53 AM (#4089253) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,Peter Laban It's probably worth noting Tradition records also acted as a patron of the arts, the cover of 'The Lark ibn the Morning', as well as at least one or two other lps I can think of, featured artwork by Louis Le Brocquy (although misspelling his name as Le Bracquy) |
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22 Jan 21 - 12:13 PM (#4089284) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman Martyn Wymdham Read worked with Bert Lloyd |
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22 Jan 21 - 12:34 PM (#4089291) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,RA Regarding Alan Lomax, you could contact the Alan Lomax Archive/Centre for Cultural Equity . |
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22 Jan 21 - 12:45 PM (#4089292) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp https://www.loc.gov/item/afc2004004.ms300139/ Alan Lomax Collection, Manuscripts, Tradition Records View 49 images in sequence. Contributor Names; Lomax, Alan, 1915-2002 (Collector) Created / Published 1925-2000 Subject Headings; United States/correspondence/notes/project files Notes; Negro Prison Songs, Italian, Heather and Glen More Manuscripts/Mixed Material like this Alan Lomax Collection, Manuscripts, American Patchwork, 1978-1991, Appalachian Journey Alan Lomax Collection, Manuscripts, American Patchwork, 1978-1991, Appalachian Journey, Sacred Harp Alan Lomax Collection, Manuscripts, American Patchwork, 1978-1991, Land Where the Blues Began Alan Lomax Collection, Manuscripts, American Patchwork, 1978-1991, administrative Alan Lomax Collection, Manuscripts, American Patchwork, 1978-1991, administrative |
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22 Jan 21 - 12:53 PM (#4089293) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp Tradition Records was an American record label from 1955 to 1966 that specialized in folk music. The label was founded and financed by Guggenheim heiress Diane Hamilton in 1956. Its president and director was Patrick "Paddy" Clancy, who was soon to join his brothers Liam and Tom Clancy and Tommy Makem, as part of the new Irish folk group, The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem. Liam Clancy designed the company's maple leaf logo. The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, as owners of the label, sold the Tradition catalogue to Everest Records. (Wikipedia) |
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22 Jan 21 - 01:18 PM (#4089299) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp https://irishstudies.sunygeneseoenglish.org/2015/08/22/the-clancy-brothers/ AUGUST 22, 2015 BY MICHAEL GOLE The Clancy Brothers Susan Motherway argues that the Clancy's political themes provided further interest in the group's songs. She says of the Clancy's success, "They soon recognized a market for the performance of the Irish political songs in America and formed a ballad group. Their appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show (1961) prompted the explosion of an Irish folk movement led by the Dubliners, the Wolfe Tones, and the Johnstons" (Motherway 143). Motherway also asserts that, by performing politically charged Irish songs in an international context, the Clancy Brothers connected to minority and civil rights movements in America (Motherway, 8-9). Getting more at the political influence that the Clancy Brothers had, Susan Motherway quotes Christy Moore, stating, "Christy Moore believed that the Clancy Brothers provided the Irish people with a modern expression of Irishness that enabled them 'to cast off the shackles of conservative Catholicism and to break free from the dark sentence that Mother Church had read out.' Christy believes that the Clancy Brothers and the Irish folk revival that ensued revoked the ideals of De Valera, rediscovered a wealth of culture, and renewed a pride in Irish culture and, particularly, music" (Motherway, 144). The Clancy Brothers rebel songs and politically charged ballads made their music more relevant than ever during the height of their popularity, as this coincided with the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Their lyrics were even more significant because Tommy Makem, one of the group members, was himself from Northern Ireland (Motherway 143-144). |
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22 Jan 21 - 02:26 PM (#4089313) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Jack Campin Have you been talking to people on the political side of the meetup? What did they make of the folkies? |
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22 Jan 21 - 04:27 PM (#4089328) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: meself I had the impression, possibly based on not much at all, that the Clancys had cooled on the rebel songs as the Troubles heated up ... did I just imagine that? |
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22 Jan 21 - 05:25 PM (#4089341) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Felipa I thought the same, "meself". They didn't go the way of the Wolfe Tones, for instance. |
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23 Jan 21 - 02:53 AM (#4089405) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,RA GUESTManofLetters above refers to the political song collection in Glasgow. It's the Janey Buchan Political Song Collection (JBPSC). (Note - Janey, not Jenny). It is indeed now housed at the University of Glasgow, having originally been housed at Glasgow Caledonian University. The JBPSC is probably best contactable through its Facebook page. Some of its materials have been digitised, but as is the way of things, lack of funding and so on means that progress is slow. |
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23 Jan 21 - 12:18 PM (#4089520) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp From Wikipedia; The 1960s continued to be a successful decade with the release of approximately two albums per year, all of which sold millions of copies. In 1963 they made a prestigious televised appearance in front of President John F. Kennedy. Makem rewrote an old song, "We Want No Irish Here", expressly for the occasion. In late 1963, the group released its most successful album, In Person at Carnegie Hall, which spent twelve weeks on the Billboard chart for the top 150 albums of any genre in release in the United States. It broke the top 50 albums in December, an unprecedented occurrence for an Irish folk music recording. The Clancy Brothers' follow-up album, The First Hurrah!, also charted in the top 100 albums in the US in 1964. A single taken from that album, "The Leaving of Liverpool", was a top ten hit in Ireland. Another album, Isn't It Grand Boys, appeared on the British charts in 1965. In the mid-1960s, the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem continued to release live albums: Recorded Live in Ireland, Freedom's Sons, and In Concert. In 1966, they also participated in the making of The Irish Uprising, an educational recording with music, speeches, and a historical booklet, celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Easter Uprising. The Rising Of The Moon (Irish Songs Of Rebellion) 1956 Freedom's Sons 1966; Outlawed Raparee / Port Lairge / I'm A Free Born Man / Hi For The Beggar / When We Were Under The King / Freedom's Sons / A Medley Commemorating The 50th Anniversary Of The Uprising Of 1916: From Padraic Pearse's "The Fool", Foggy Dew, From Sean O'Casey's "Drums Under The Window", From W. B. Yeats' "Easter 1916" / Lord Nelson The Itish Uprising 1966; Side One 1. The Soldier's Song — Liam Clancy, The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, Padraic Pearse's Oration At The Grave Of O'Donovan Rossa — Daniel Callahan, The Bold Fenian Men — Breandan O'Duill, From An Interview with Sean T. O'Kelly — Sean T. O'Kelly 2. From A Speech By Eamon DeValera — Eamon DeValera, Lonely Banna Strand — Kay Hart, Eamon DeValera — Eamon DeValera, From "The Rebel" — Tommy Makem, Tri-Colored Ribbon — Anne Byrne 3. The Rising Of The Moon — Tommy Makem & The Clancy Brothers, The Proclamation Of 1916 — Donal Donnelly Side Two 1. Wrap The Green Flag 'Round Me Boys — Tommy Makem & The Clancy Brothers, From Interviews with Mrs. Eileen O'Hanrahan Reilly — Eileen O'Hanrahan Reilly, From Interviews with Rory Brugha — Rory Brugha, From Interviews with Sean Harling — Sean Harling 2. Who Fears To Speak Of Easter Week — The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, From "Easter 1916" — Tom Clancy, Tipperary So Far Away — Tom Clancy, The Rose Tree — Ed Golden 3. Down By The Glenside — Kay Hart, From "Drums Under The Window" — Liam Clancy, The West's Awake — Anne Byrne, Breandan O'Duill & The Abbey Tavern Singers Side Three 1. Padraic Pearse's Surrender Order, April 1916 — Daniel Callahan, The Foggy Dew — Pat Clancy, The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, Sixteen Dead Men — Tom Clancy 2. The Dying Rebel — Kay Hart, The Mother — Deirdre O'Maera, Eamon DeValera — Eamon DeValera, The Grand Ould Dame Britannia — Tommy Makem, From Interviews with Sean T. O'Kelly — Sean T. O'Kelly, From Interviews with Joseph Clarke — Joseph Clarke, From Interviews with Sean Harling — Sean Harling, From Interviews with Frank Sherwin — Frank Sherwin 3. Johnson's Motor Car — The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, The Valley Of Knockanure — Liam Clanc, Eamon DeValera — Eamon DeValera, From Interviews with Sean Mooney — Sean Mooney, From Interviews with Sean Harling — Sean Harling, Green In The Green — Liam Clancy, The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem Side Four 1. Boys From The County Cork — Tommy Makem & The Clancy Brothers, Kevin Barry — Liam Clancy, The Manifesto Of Sinn Fein — Eamonn Kelly, Eamon DeValera — Eamon DeValera 2. Shall My Soul Pass Through Old Ireland — Anne Byrne, From An Interview with Rory Brugha — Rory Brugha, From An Interview with Sean Mooney — Sean Mooney, An Durd Fainne — Liam Clancy, The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, From An Interview with Sean Harling — Sean Harling 3. From "The Fool" — Donal Donnelly, A Nation Once Again — Tommy Makem & The Clancy Brothers, From The Easter 1966 Message — Eamon DeValera, The Soldier's Song — The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem The Very Best Of Irish Rebel Ballads Date issued unknown Rebel Songs And Drinking Songs 2012; Two original albums Digitally remastered on 2 CDs |
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24 Jan 21 - 12:35 PM (#4089719) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge There was an 'Armchair Theatre' play about 1970- set in Belfast & written by Dominic Behan, with Tom Bell as a travelling folksinger in a hotel with a bomb warning. Can't recall the title, but it's in a set of those plays, not expensive & available via Amazon- streets ahead of the shite on TV these days..... |
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24 Jan 21 - 12:52 PM (#4089722) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge I think it was just called 'The Folk Singer'- I have a copy somewhere.... |
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26 Jan 21 - 07:48 AM (#4089979) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,JackOSiochain Hi all, Again, thanks for all these responses, this is just brilliant and more than I could have hoped for. I'm trying to make a list of everything to follow up on. Haven't got an account here just yet but I'm working my way through emailing everyone who has left details. On Lomax, I've been in touch with the Cultural Equity people a bit, as well as with his archivist in the Library of Congress (couldn't be nicer people, either of them). I've made one research trip to the Lomax Family Archive in the LoC, but unfortunately it was a little while ago, and before the focus of my project changed considerably, so perhaps I didn't do the best research I could have. Since then I've been trying to look through some of the digitised stuff, and while there's a huge amount online, it's somewhat difficult to find exactly what you need. On the Scottish left, it's certainly an important angle, but I'm ashamed to say I don't know much about it. The links with, for example, Hamish Henderson seem very important so I really appreciate the direction there. Jack Campin: You're quite right to ask the question of whether it's all about the more well known artists. The answer is, hopefully no, but they have been my starting point for two reasons. Firstly, that's usually what information is retained and made easiest to access. For example, there are many recordings of the Clancy Brothers available online, and you can watch things like their 60s PBS special very easily. Much more difficult to find info on more obscure figures. The second is that I'm interested in seeing what sort of music like this broke through into the popular consciousness. I'm a historian firstly, so I have to try to link it to wider societal movements at the time. That said, trying to find those musicians who as you say, would play at rallies, marches etc is a large part of the reason I'm here. Their role needs preserving, too! On talking to political people, what has surprised me the most is that most of them seem to have been very indiscriminate in the sorts of music they loved. The period I'm studying, there seems to be little care in the political people's minds whether they were listening to American folk or Irish ballads or rock and roll. On the Clancys specifically, one of the reasons I find them so interesting is exactly what a few people have said, their early enthusiasm for rebel songs/republican ballads and later distance from them. In the middle of all that you have Tommy Makem performing Four Green Fields in the bogside in 1969. There's a turning point there somewhere that I'm trying to tease out. Jim Bainbridge - That play sounds absolutely fascinating, I'd be really interested in anything you had on that. Behan is a really central figure in this, as he's one of the only people who meets nearly everyone involved from the 50s through the 70s (and feuds with a few of them too). My email, by the way, is sheehaj2(at)tcd.ie if anyone would prefer to exchange info that way. |
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26 Jan 21 - 12:46 PM (#4090012) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp https://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/a-boy-in-a-bainin-sweater-26409285.html A boy in a bainin sweater Donal Lynch March 05 2006 12:11 AM When she was 31, Diane [Hamilton] toured Ireland and Scotland, recording folk singers. She had met Liam's older brothers on the Greenwich Village folk music scene and when they heard she was going to Ireland they insisted she visit their mother, a renowned singer, in Carrick-on-Suir. Once there, she became smitten with Liam's powerful singing voice and good looks and invited him to pack in his job as an insurance salesman and join her and Scottish poet Hamish Henderson on a visit to the Aran Islands, then Armagh and on to Scotland. The wickedly flamboyant Henderson had also taken a shine to Liam, and both he and Diane spent the trip mooning over the teenager. "I had never even heard of homosexuality at that point. I had come from a family where we said the rosary three times a day. And now I was faced with a choice between a gay Scot in the back seat and a twice-divorced American woman in the front. I thought I was going straight to hell either way." Liam managed to rebuff advances from both, but the wealthy American, undeterred, invited him to follow her to New York. She paid for his ticket and in 1956 he set off on the long sea voyage. |
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26 Jan 21 - 02:41 PM (#4090041) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Jack, The play was broadcast on ITV in 1972. There wasn't much overtly political content, more just a setting in a typical situation in a troubled time- it MUST have been set in the much bombed Europa Hotel. I saw Dominic at folk clubs in the 60s, but I didn't meet him until when I was working at Thames TV around 1970 when Christy Moore brought him down down to the studios, probably to promote the play- I was in graphics, so had no help to give practically, but the pints in the 'Tide End Cottage' were good! Now 'Pinky and Perky' that's a different story... Anyway, the play is on a currently available DVD titled 'Armchair Theatre'- it consists of several hour-long plays from 50 years ago The one you want is the 'Folk Singer' and Amazon have it for a few pounds- there are several different sets of these but it's volume 1 you want. I have it somewhere on a copiable CD but it's probably quicker to get your own, although if all else fails, I can help. Good luck with it all Jim |
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27 Jan 21 - 06:16 AM (#4090146) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp Available on demand from BBC Sounds; BBC Radio 4 How the Irish Shaped Britain Episode 2 of 3 McAlpine's Fusiliers In the second part of “How the Irish Shaped Britain,” Fergal Keane continues his exploration of the profound influence the Irish have had on Britain. In this episode we begin with the years of the Great Famine. Millions leave Ireland, many of them heading for the port cities of Britain, where they are far from welcome. But soon they become an integral part of the workforce in the factories and shipyards of Scotland and England. Then, in the second half of the 19th century, Irish Fenians, partly in revenge for the famine, launch the first terrorist bombing campaign to hit these shores. In parallel with that, Irish MPs flex their muscles in Westminster; while on the cultural stage Irish playwrights and writers are bringing the 'English language back to the English'. It’s a pattern that stretches through the decades, to the reconstruction of Britain’s bombed out cities after World War Two and the building of a more modern Britain in the 1950s and 1960s, with the successors of the Irish navvies digging their way underground. Irish descendants also begin to shape the British musical scene. It’s a tale of rejection and assimilation, of hatred and tolerance, of separateness and of mixing. In the story of how the Irish shaped Britain, as Fergal points out, there are all kinds of narratives and counter-narratives being told at the same time. Produced by John Murphy and Adele Armstrong. Mixed by Eloise Whitmore. Thanks to (in order of appearance in series): Emeritus Professor Roy Foster (Oxford University), Sinéad Morrissey (poet + Newcastle University), Dara O'Briain, Dr. Clare Downham (Liverpool University), Professor Dáibhí Ó Cróinín (ex NUI Galway), Professor Diarmaid MacCullough (ex Oxford University), Fiona Shaw, Professor Thomas Devine (ex Edinburgh University), Dr. Catriona MacDonald (Glasgow University), Greg Quiery (In Hardship and Hope: A History of the Liverpool Irish), Michael Boyle, Theresa Hill, Ultan Cowley (The Men who built Britain: A History of the Irish Navvy), Professor Louise Richardson (Vice Chancellor Oxford University), Ralph McTell (singer, songwriter), Sean Mulryan (CEO Ballymore Group), Una Heaslip, Carmel Wilson, Danny Maher (CEO Ashford Place), Bob Geldof, Bobby McDonagh (ex Ambassador to London), Maurice Malone (CEO Birmingham Irish Association), Adrian Goldberg (The 21 Podcast), Dr Caoimhe Nic Dháibhéid (Sheffield University). |
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29 Jan 21 - 11:08 AM (#4090512) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,JackOSiochain Jim - thanks again, I'll get a copy of the play and have a look. You've been a huge help! |
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29 Jan 21 - 02:00 PM (#4090542) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,.gaargoyle Hi ya Jack, Whether it is music or politics I believe you will not find many Irish far from a spiritual connection. Therefore, I highly recommend the book. Sincerely, Gargoyle A fascinating read,one I believe Mr. Joe would particularly relate to. |
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01 Feb 21 - 09:56 AM (#4090955) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST If you are into that sort of thing, you may be better off with John O'Donohue's Anam Cara but all of that is well out of the realm of this thread. |
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20 Feb 21 - 09:21 PM (#4094049) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,D Druhan Irish traditional music was in a dark place in 1950s Ireland - along with many other aspects of Irishness and Irish culture. I remember it. But I've never seen a truly comprehensive explanation of why that was. I think myself it possibly had something to do with we, the Irish, believing Ireland was a "failed state". We did it to ourselves. Dermot Druhan |
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21 Feb 21 - 03:44 AM (#4094069) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Jack Campin What you see in Irish literature of the period is a vitriolic fury against the Church underlying everything else - they were seen as a far more destructive enemy than the British. But musicians hardly ever seemed to be overtly anti-clerical, though they had as much reason to be as the writers did. What was going on there? |
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21 Feb 21 - 06:49 AM (#4094102) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp The Country Girls is a trilogy by Irish author Edna O'Brien. The novel is an exploration of the trials and tribulations of two friends set against the backdrop of 1950s Ireland, showing the influence of James Joyce in the humane attention to detail and thought and the rather lyrical prose of the narrator Cait. The ending where Cait is betrayed by Mr Gentleman can be considered as a call by O'Brien for a reconsideration of Catholic values in Irish society. O'Brien helped to launch a new generation of Irish writers more focused on the demands and values of society, such as Enright, Nuala O'Faolain and Colm Tóibín. It consists of three novels: The Country Girls (1960), The Lonely Girl (1962), and Girls in Their Married Bliss (1964). All three novels were banned by the Irish censorship board and faced significant public disdain in Ireland. O'Brien won the Kingsley Amis Award in 1962 for The Country Girls. The Country Girls, both the trilogy and the novel, is often credited with breaking silence on sexual matters and social issues during a repressive period in Ireland following World War II and was adapted into a 1983 film. Wikipedia |
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21 Feb 21 - 10:51 AM (#4094140) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,John Moulden I mentioned my website - http://moulden.org - above. If its content causes you to believe my knowledge might be of use to you, contact me through the website and I will respond. |
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21 Feb 21 - 04:57 PM (#4094182) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,.gargoyle You might be able to contact the creator of this thread. https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=6839#40335 Also, I suggest this book - I read it too late. How To Complete and Survive Your Doctoral Dissertation By David Sternberg Sincerely, Gargoyle (ABD - "Autotelic Experience Associated With Adolescent Leisure Activity" aka Flow-Theory, aka PLAY,) |
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24 Feb 21 - 11:24 AM (#4094603) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge post- independence Eire involves some very deep waters! Ken Loach's film 'Jimmy's Hall' - the story orf a returned 'Yank' and his struggle (and eventual failure) to set up a dance hall in Leitrim tackled the church attitudes of the time. Also, there was the great Leitrim flute player John McKenna, whose US 78 records were brought back to Ireland & much treasured & copied by ordinary folk. On his return to his home country in c1938 he was treated with contempt by Radio Eireann - not only the church had these short-sighted attitudes, the rest of the Irish establishment was little different- Eire was a pretty sad place under de Valera. As to why, I'd leave it to an Irishman to explain that.... |
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27 Feb 21 - 03:08 AM (#4095089) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman De Valera sold out to the Church.he became their puppet It was not until Ireland joining europe, that the country progressed in a more liberal direction |
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27 Feb 21 - 08:52 AM (#4095117) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST,henryp De Valera retired from government and was elected President of Ireland in 1959. By the time of his retirement in 1973 at the age of 90, Ireland had become a member of the European Community on January 1st 1973. That act demonstrated that attitudes were already changing. Edna O'Brien published The Country Girls in 1960. Eimear McBride wrote in The Irish Times on September 16, 2017; To minds shackled by the many Machiavellian impositions of religious prohibition, institutional contempt and unquestioning denigration of female intellect she sang the song of awareness, of dissent and the necessity of searching out better, and more. |
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28 Feb 21 - 05:32 AM (#4095268) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST Ireland is still run by a coalition of two right of centre parties- they claim to be different, but the main difference is that one accepted the partial independence for the 26 counties, and the other did not! Labour hardly exists in Ireland, while the main opposition party, Sinn Fein owes many of its principles to Karl Marx... you pays your money and.... |
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29 Mar 21 - 02:34 AM (#4099745) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Jack Campin Was anybody making anti-fascist songs in the Fascist era? I just read this (new to me) on the Working Class History FB page: On this day, 29 March 1933, thousands of right-wing religious zealots destroyed the HQ of the Revolutionary Workers' Groups in Dublin following a three-day siege. It was one of several violent attacks perpetrated by mobs who had been whipped into anti-communist hysteria by the Catholic Church. The attack had commenced on 27th March following a vehemently anti-communist sermon by the priest at St Mary’s Pro-Cathedral. Having defended Connolly House for more than 48 hours, barricading entrances and throwing slates and bricks from the roof, the small group of communists escaped over the rooftops, firing warning shots as they retreated. Triumphant, the attackers looted the building, stole membership records, smashed furniture, and finally doused the top floor in petrol and set it alight. Pictured: police in the wrecked building |
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29 Mar 21 - 02:58 AM (#4099748) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: The Sandman i think they were. in 1992 i came across a parody and a satire of the Blueshirts that a local person had written, it went to the tune of BRIGHTON CAMP, sadly, i did not write it down. |
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15 Apr 21 - 02:57 PM (#4102302) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST I'm looking for the name of a song and the band that sang it. The lyrics are I am a Rover down from Dover I am a Rover Bolden free I am a friend to all the women still there's only one for me Nancy Nancy whiskey Nancy |
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15 Apr 21 - 04:28 PM (#4102314) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: GUEST wrong thread |
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15 Apr 21 - 04:29 PM (#4102315) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Jack Campin That's a version of the Scottish song "The Calton Weaver". Not Irish and not political. Look for another thread. |
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16 Apr 21 - 12:47 PM (#4102434) Subject: RE: PhD on Irish Folk Music and Politics From: Mrrzy Glad you found us, OP. Hope to read your dissertation! |