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26 Mar 21 - 04:07 AM (#4099330) Subject: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Mr Red OK not Panama as palindromes have it, but real panic. Humongous container ship broadside in the Suez canal is funny, but deadly serious. Suez blockage is holding up $9.6bn of goods a day Not only is the traffic stacking up both ends, but COVID has disrupted the supply chains to the point that empty containers are piling-up at the wrong ends of the routes. We don't realise just how much we depend on global trade. Not just for the latest Chinese cheap whirlygig-gizmos, but factories source their parts and materials from all over. Nuts & bolts go this way to doovery box manufacturers over there, that get put into thingamybobs by manufacturers that way, who sell to us the other way. Imagine vaccine supply chains, and Euro-argumentativeness! Even Tesla making cars in a very vertically integrated way buy; their robots from China, cobalt from Africa, nickel from New Caledonia and unobtainium from Mars if Elon Musk has his way. |
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26 Mar 21 - 07:14 AM (#4099345) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Donuel Before Europe blows up from a globl butt plug obstruction I would think if tug boats don't work, chain all te ships backed up behind the container ship and pull backwards. |
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26 Mar 21 - 01:28 PM (#4099412) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: mayomick Maybe you should offer your services as a global butt plug obstruction consultant. |
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26 Mar 21 - 01:52 PM (#4099414) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Bonzo3legs It seems to me that the solution is to blow up a few feet at each end of the ship then move the bugger!! |
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26 Mar 21 - 02:30 PM (#4099415) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rapparee There is, as far as I can see, no quick fix. Why not back up as many ships as possible and go around Africa? Yes, it's the long way around, but right now the ships are piling up and there is piracy. |
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26 Mar 21 - 03:11 PM (#4099420) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: punkfolkrocker Considering all the billions frittered over many decades on weapons and war in that region, maybe some of that wasted obscene wealth would have been better spent on significantly widening the canal...??? |
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26 Mar 21 - 03:23 PM (#4099422) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Mr Red Ships are being routed around the Cape, but that adds 12 days. And expensive stuff is being air-freighted. I don't think air cargo has slowed in COVID, only passenger planes. Apparently each day of a ship that can't parallel park means is will take 2 days to sort the traffic jam. Years ago it was said the large ships were followed by a dredger. I believe they sorted that since. But ships have got bigger too! |
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26 Mar 21 - 03:58 PM (#4099435) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: JHW I drove a narrowboat through Foulridge Tunnel. Isn't easy; steering is at the back but only works when you're going forwards. |
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26 Mar 21 - 05:49 PM (#4099451) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: DaveRo Two insightful comments on this site ...[Evert Lataire, head of the Maritime Technology Division at Ghent University in Belgium] wrote his dissertation on a similar phenomenon as a ship passes close to a bank: the bank effect. The water speeds up, the pressure drops, the stern pulls into the bank and, particularly in shallow water, the bow gets pushed away. Stern one way, bow the other. A boat that had been steaming is suddenly spinning. It’s a well-identified phenomenon; in 2009 Ghent University’s Shallow Water Knowledge Centre put together a whole conference about it. Clever pilots on the Elbe, according to Lataire, will use it to shoot around a bend. However: the more water a ship displaces, the stronger the effect. And the closer the side of the hull is to the shore, the stronger the effect. The bigger the ship, the faster the bow shoots away from the bank.… [On the video,] everything happens quickly, in a way that looks a lot like the bank effect. Bow shoots away from the bank. Stern continues to hug the bank and move north. Ship spins. Bow bulb punches through the riprap.”...and What a wonderful real world example of a single point of failure causing a huge system to collapse! |
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26 Mar 21 - 06:41 PM (#4099452) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: The Sandman SNAFU Situation normal all fecked u[p |
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26 Mar 21 - 09:24 PM (#4099460) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Donuel The Sewer Canal is backed up with over 135 shits. The other shits are going around the Cape of God Hope. 768 metric tons of Milk of Magnesia is being poured into the canal. |
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27 Mar 21 - 09:51 AM (#4099513) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic Clever thread title! Fascinating problem. There was a helpful youtube released coincidentally with the recent problem but not specifically addressing it. It describes container ships as compared by how many thousands of TEUs (Twenty foot Equivalent Unit)can be carried. The youtube video is concerned with the expense and ecological impacts of the immense amount of dredging involved in making ports that can receive the larger container carriers. The video is concerned with the 'mega' carriers that can handle up to 15,000 TEUs. The TEU wedged into the Suez canal is 20,000 size. It is possibly the world's largest at this time. Larger ones are in the offing. Another youtube addresses the specific situation of MV Ever Given as of yesterday (20210326). As I type this I don't think the situation has changed. |
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27 Mar 21 - 09:59 AM (#4099515) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic A slightly more recent report from DW |
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27 Mar 21 - 10:24 AM (#4099518) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rapparee So, does this spinning effect occur if only one prop is used or working (for whatever reason)? Does prop placement (one beyond another) affect the effect? If the rudder is located in, say, the center of four props (two on each side) does the position of the rudder affect the problem? Let's face it, neither the Suez or the Panama canals were built with today's cargo ships in mind. |
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27 Mar 21 - 10:32 AM (#4099520) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Donuel Pod Props are best way to go but are expensive. |
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27 Mar 21 - 11:36 AM (#4099532) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: DaveRo Donuel wrote: Pod Props are best way to go but are expensive.They don't fit azimuth thrusters - pods - to big cargo ships. The biggest are about 20MW, whereas the Ever Given has an 60MW diesel, plus two 2.5MW bow thrusters. These ships spend most of the time going in a straight line and in port are normally manouvered by tugs. Azipods are great for cruise ships which have to get in and out of small ports. It's amazing that the Canal Company hasn't foreseen this could happen - indeed I'm surprised that it hasn't happened before. I'd expect such a huge ship to be accompanied by a tug fore and aft to keep it straight - for example if it lost steerage way. |
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27 Mar 21 - 04:23 PM (#4099564) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Stilly River Sage Removing the cargo would lighten the ship and float it, but I gather there is no way to remove the cargo from the part of the canal where it is stuck. |
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27 Mar 21 - 05:16 PM (#4099577) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: The Sandman It's amazing that the Canal Company hasn't foreseen this could happen - indeed I'm surprised that it hasn't happened before. I'd expect such a huge ship to be accompanied by a tug fore and aft to keep it straight - for example if it lost steerage way." could it be that it was not done because extra cost might reduce profit |
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27 Mar 21 - 06:07 PM (#4099578) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: DaveRo I'd expect the canal's owners - the Egyption goverment - to conduct a risk analysis: likelihood of such a blockage and the financial impact if it eventuates. In this case even if the likelihood is low the impact is obviously enormous. Lack of imagination? Anyway, they charge the shipowners for transit. As long as it's cheaper than going round the Cape they can charge what they like. Maybe that's the problem: if they charged enough to mitigate the risk then these big ships wouldn't use it. Another factor is, who bears the cost of this event? This should keep lawyers in work for years! |
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27 Mar 21 - 06:43 PM (#4099581) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic Wikipedia has Ever Given information. It has one drive engine a two cycle diesel driving a single fixed pitch screw. It has two bow thrusters and separate generator engines. It apparently has twelve sister ships of equivalent carrying capacity. The Wikipedia article is apparently being updated so it is effectively a news source for the time being. |
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28 Mar 21 - 06:08 AM (#4099638) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: JHW I put new substations in a steelworks whose speciality was the corner blocks of containers. Grain orientated steel with handling holes. Seeing the containers stacked on this ship says it was a worthwhile business. |
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28 Mar 21 - 01:17 PM (#4099678) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic JHW: were the substations classified? Assuming you're in the UK what code set of standards do you utilize? Is it closer to American or European? |
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28 Mar 21 - 01:51 PM (#4099682) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Nigel Parsons Del Boy: "Cushtie Rodney, it looks like we're in the money." Rodney: "I'm worried Del" Del: "No worry, all that cheap crap we bought from China, there's no more getting through, and the price is rising" Rodney: "No Del, I'm really worried" Del: "Don't worry, we'll get down the market tomorrow and sell the lot and make a good profit. All thanks to that boat running aground." Rodney: "No Del, I'm worried that I haven't seen Uncle Albert recently . . ." |
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28 Mar 21 - 02:58 PM (#4099695) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic For those interested in the history of the Suez Canal and too lazy to google it, you can find it here. Meanwhile, wondering what popular goods are sitting there, waiting for Amazon to find them and send them on. |
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28 Mar 21 - 05:41 PM (#4099705) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Mr Red It's amazing that the Canal Company hasn't foreseen this could happen I remember seeing an aerial shot of ship in the Panama canal stuck in the bank. I think it tried reverse thrust and pulled the prop out. That was 40 years ago or more. And the width of the canal was wider, and ships smaller then. Apparently there was a sand storm at the time the Ever Given ran aground. And the ship is like a huge sail. So visibility poor and steering dodgy. Big wide, heavy ship, narrow navigable channel. Who'da thought it would happen one day? It is not just SARS COVID-2 that is reminding us how the world is so inextricably interconnected. |
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28 Mar 21 - 10:03 PM (#4099733) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rapparee And then there are those who say "Only buy American! (European, British, Irish, etc.)." When I ask about coffee, tea, bananas, and similar things those people go kind of blank. There is a tea plantation outside of Charleston, SC, and Kona coffee (very, very good!) is raised in Hawaii. That's it, as far as I know about the US. Interconnected? Oh, YEAH! |
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29 Mar 21 - 01:27 AM (#4099740) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog BBC are reporting that the vessel has been refloated now. |
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29 Mar 21 - 01:33 AM (#4099741) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic I'll check out Rain Dog's report. Meanwhile here is a recent vid explaining in some detail how the stuck happened and what is being done to this point. good description. |
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29 Mar 21 - 07:50 AM (#4099771) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: JHW Electricity Substations, several new transformers, 20kv to LV. Coincidentally it was Easter, as plant was closed. (Heard containers are soon on their way.) |
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29 Mar 21 - 08:17 AM (#4099777) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog Seems they have moved the stern away from the shoreline but vessel is not yet underway. Still quite a bit of work to do. |
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29 Mar 21 - 09:57 AM (#4099786) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Mr Red Is it holed? I imagine the screw or the rudder may have taken a hit, though the report is no damage there. There may be sand under there and who knows how solid anything else might be. Sand, particularly wet sand, is pretty hard. Suez Canal: Giant ship blocking Suez Canal finally freed shows it moving considerably slower than the 13 knots it was going when it rammed the bank. |
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29 Mar 21 - 10:38 AM (#4099791) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Donuel The canal now needs a good flush |
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29 Mar 21 - 11:06 AM (#4099795) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Stilly River Sage Tugboats to the rescue, working at high tide with a full moon. |
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29 Mar 21 - 12:55 PM (#4099814) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: DaveRo In situations like this you call for the Dutch - specifically Smit Salvage. Do you remember the Tricolor - the car carrier that sunk in the English Channel, right in the middle of the shipping lanes? They sawed in up in situ with a mega-bandsaw - amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ENOJBLVgjw |
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30 Mar 21 - 08:43 PM (#4100027) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Bill D I'm wondering now if they 'might' require a tug escort for the largest ships....especially in bad weather. A tug could guard the shore the wind pushes the ship toward. It would cost... but not like the cost of this debacle. |
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31 Mar 21 - 03:12 AM (#4100060) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Mr Red I imagine escort tugs will be the norm now. The videos of the re-floated ship moving under its own (ha!) steam showed three important points. 1) it was towed by and surrounded by tugs. 2) it was distinctly, if a little, listing to port. The cargo had shifted &/or the hull bent. 3) the speed was considerably less than the 13 knots it was doing when blown off course. |
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31 Mar 21 - 06:01 PM (#4100188) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic "lessons learned" |
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14 Apr 21 - 02:07 AM (#4102155) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog I see that the Ever Given is still 'stuck' in the Suez Canal,having been impounded while they sort out who pays the bill Ever Given stuck again. I feel sorry for the crew and those who have containers on that ship. |
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14 Apr 21 - 10:12 AM (#4102188) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic Looks like the 'economies of scale' have bitten back big-time! |
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14 Apr 21 - 11:13 AM (#4102199) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Donuel Geez Louise |
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14 Apr 21 - 12:02 PM (#4102205) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Stilly River Sage This isn't unexpected; I wonder if there is insurance for this kind of accident? |
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14 Apr 21 - 02:41 PM (#4102213) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: EBarnacle The effect of a narrow waterway being attacked by wakes would naturally narrow the waterway even more due to erosion. Apparently, the Egyptians have not been keeping up with the maintenance. If done properly, this approach would have gradually widened and deepened the canal unobtrusively, making this sort of problem less likely. Has anyone else noticed that the price of gas at the pump seems to have gone down since the ship was moved? |
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14 Apr 21 - 04:30 PM (#4102225) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Donuel A force majeure clause (act of god) is hard/unlikely to get a policy to cover, including things like earthquakes and Nuclear war, which aren't acts of god in my book anyway. |
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15 Apr 21 - 03:03 AM (#4102254) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: punkfolkrocker If the canal owners are holding the ship for ransom, who do the [collateral damage] importers waiting for their impounded goods sue...??? I've read there are containers of UK bound guitars and music gear caught up in this fiasco. Not good for struggling British music shops already being run down by adverse consequences of brexit and covid. Even Amazon UK seem to be running out of stock... |
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15 Apr 21 - 04:00 AM (#4102258) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog The importers can do very little about it. The larger importers have more sway and can threaten to move their accounts, but due to limited capacity on the routes, options are limited. It will hit smaller importers a lot harder. Their stock is stuck on the vessel just as shops are reopening. Not good times for sure. |
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16 Apr 21 - 02:01 PM (#4102440) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog It seems importers will have quite a wait for their cargo and some of them will have a hefty bill to pay. Google "General Average" to see why. Some details here. This does not appear to have received much,if any,coverage in the mainstream press. Ship owner declares General Average Freight forwarders and importers with cargo on the Ever Given are potentially facing large repair bills after the vessel’s owner, Shoei Kisen, declared General Average. The maritime principle of General Average is one of the most established and widely recognised laws in relation to shipping. When attempting to ensure the safety of the crew and vessel during an emergency situation, there is limited time for the crew to determine the origin of the cargo being sacrificed. To make things fair for all, General Average is designed to spread risk, by dividing up any costs incurred proportionately. |
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16 Apr 21 - 03:27 PM (#4102447) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic Rain Dog: Thanks to you I learned something today. Dam you to hell. |
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04 Jul 21 - 10:23 PM (#4112332) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: keberoxu So, the Suez Canal has been freed up for some time. The ship in question sits in a holding area termed the Great Bitter Lake, wonderfully ironic given the expense and the delay in global shipping. I tried to link to the Washington Post update, but the paywall got in my way. I have noticed a discrepancy in photographs of the cargo vessel. Some have the words "Ever Given" on the vessel while other photos show "EVERGREEN" in one compound word along the side of the ship. Of course, I wonder why. Some optimistic global journalism updates have said the settlement will happen any time. But this report says, the hearings in the court have been adjourned until July 11. Is it true, that the crew have been stuck there all these months?? |
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05 Jul 21 - 12:33 AM (#4112342) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: robomatic I think there is probably a housekeeping crew assigned to the task. People who otherwise have no lives (or no wallets, or exceedingly low self esteem, or all of the 'bove). Meanwhile, I'm thinking many of the caargos were time limited to a degree, either by the need that was to be filled or some expiration date or the expectation that items would not be sitting in storage units in Middle Eastern heat, etc. etc. I think we mentioned above some aspects of maritime law that will apply here. |
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05 Jul 21 - 12:38 AM (#4112343) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: JennieG Some stuff here...... Tommy the Tugboat might have a new home! |
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05 Jul 21 - 06:55 AM (#4112365) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog Good to see that they have agreed to release the vessel after all this time. Of course it remains to be seen how quickly the various importers are able to receive these goods. Good article here on the matter The untold story of the big boat that broke the world |
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29 Jul 21 - 10:29 AM (#4114721) Subject: RE: BS: A man, a plan, a canal, panic From: Rain Dog I see the Ever Given docked at Rotterdam this morning. According to the schedule, it should be arriving at Felixstowe on August the 8th. Customers might still have a further delay due to the shortage of HGV drivers in the UK. |
