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06 Mar 23 - 01:33 PM (#4167044) Subject: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw So the Court of Appeal in the US has decided that American producers can call an American cheese "Gruyère." Well we can't do that sort of thing on this side of the pond. We are very happy in Europe to allow Gruyère to be a protected name, made in certain areas of France or Switzerland only to strict standards. The yanks can also make "Parmesan." Well we can't do that just anywhere here either: it must be made to strict standards in a restricted area of northern Italy only. It's bad enough that everywhere in the world can make "cheddar cheese," but at least we have a separate designation that is strictly protected ("West Country Farmhouse Cheddar") that must be produced in a traditional way using local milk, made only in a restricted region of south-west England: don't tell the yanks in case they steal that name too). Cheddar is a small village in a picturesque part of Somerset, in case anyone is asking. Certain wineries in the US are STILL permitted to call their sparkling wine "champagne." Well we can't do that either, and we can't even put "methode champenoise" on sparkling wine labels, even if the wine is made in exactly the same way as champagne from the same grapes but in a different region. I think the US stance is an outrage. Make your cheese (most which is terrible, I hear) and make up your own local names and stop trying to pretend it's something it isn't. Stop riding roughshod and degrading the names of highly reputable and traditional produce. |
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06 Mar 23 - 05:47 PM (#4167054) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Donuel This is a selective outrage worthy of Wallace and Gromit. Central America makes Champagne soda that tastes like bubble gum. Who cares. As for cheese, you could call it cow water but it's up to you to eat it or not. Fermented excretions by any name smells. Aphid water is a big treat for ants but not me. If you want to make Wisconsin cheese in Borneo go for it. I know you are bored and your better half isn't speaking but for the integrity of outrage, be outraged over something that matters. |
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06 Mar 23 - 06:31 PM (#4167059) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Donuel You are up to no Gouda. I Camembert it. |
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06 Mar 23 - 06:38 PM (#4167060) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw Well if your Wisconsin cheese is shit, of course you won't care who makes it where or what they call it. No-one blames you for not valuing it. You make rubbish such as Budweiser (another stolen name, by the way), and only gammons and rednecks would have even the slightest emotional allegiance to it. You demolished rainforests so that you could fatten your population with Big Macs and keep your heart surgeons in the money. Lots of your fellow countrymen and women know all this and rail against it. Good for them. But not you. You just don't care. So go ahead and steal our culture (beats creating your own, though I will admit that you're not bad at music) and level everything down to your boring, anodyne sameness. Well there are things worth valuing and keeping distinct. But you make a cheese that is some kind of inferior copy of Gruyère and guess what? You could call it anything but you call it Gruyère, and your judges think that that's grand. Well they would if your country makes very little that's original with distinctness worth preserving. Your ignorant response to this is emblematic of the worst kind of American entitledness and exceptionalism that, thank goodness, is not shared by millions of your compatriots. The small things are important, and if you let them pass you by you'll miss seeing the big things too. |
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06 Mar 23 - 06:48 PM (#4167061) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw Gratuitous insult duly noted, by the way. It's a pity that no-one speaks to you sufficiently firmly to rein you in. |
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06 Mar 23 - 07:10 PM (#4167062) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Donuel Yes I made Budweiser, along with the Belgium owners. Yes I drained & burned the Amazon Rainforests in Brazil and Borneo. Yes I made the leading cause of death for children, firearms. Yes I make nuclear weapons and bioweapons. Yes I make Civet cheese made of cat poop and goat milk. Yes I poisoned Iranian girls who go to school. Yes I wrote the Neo-Hitler Handbook. But I did not shoot the Deputy. Whadduyu gonna do about it? |
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06 Mar 23 - 07:48 PM (#4167066) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Donuel Perhaps you should be outraged about the enslavement of Apples. When you see them in the store I can assure you none of them agreed to be there. |
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06 Mar 23 - 08:41 PM (#4167070) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw When I say "you" I mean your country, you clot (though as you seem to share the most base sentiments of national entitlement I alluded to, I hardly feel any need to clarify that in your case). Gruyères is a picturesque little town in Switzerland, population just over 2000. Gruyère cheese is made from unpasteurised cow's milk around the town and in adjacent small areas. The name and production method is protected under European law, meaning that no-one beyond the designated area can make a similar cheese, no matter how good it is, and call it Gruyère. A variety is made under the same appellation in a small area of France, which is allowed to use the name for historical, pre-appellation reasons, but it is marketed as "French Gruyère," a name agreed under the law. I couldn't start making the same style of cheese here in Cornwall and call it "English Gruyère." But you can make it in America and call it "gruyère," even without the capital (and probably without the accent). I wonder whether those appeal judges of yours have ever eaten real Gruyère. Well I think that your country shouldn't be doing this. You can make that style of cheese and call it whatever other name you like, but to call it gruyère or gruyere is (a) incredibly disrespectful, and (b) totally dishonest in that you're pretending that it's something it isn't. We don't do it here, so why should you do it there? |
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06 Mar 23 - 08:59 PM (#4167072) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Stilly River Sage The Gruyère I bought last time was from Switzerland and the Parmesan I bought the last several times was Italian. It's very easy to find the imported products here. I don't know much about Wisconsin cheddar but New York and Vermont have some very good blond (not colored obnoxious Kraft cheese yellow) sharp cheddar. And the Ag university in Washington State makes a wonderful cheese called Cougar Gold (but the sharp cheddar isn't yellow.) I also buy a wonderful sharp cheddar at Costco that is made near Steve's house, it's called Coastal sharp cheddar. The wine folks won the case regarding champagne, but I suspect a lot of these cases are too many removes from when the product first started being made here for the naming rights to now have enough muscle to win. Swiss cheese would be the case in point. It has been here for how long? Hundreds of years? It isn't called "Swiss style," it's just Swiss. |
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07 Mar 23 - 03:18 AM (#4167083) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: BobL Another point: they call their language "English" (although admittedly it is quite similar). |
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07 Mar 23 - 10:14 AM (#4167095) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw The American spellings thing isn't clear-cut. Some "American" spellings were used this end before the "English English" spellings took over! "Swiss cheese" isn't one variety of cheese. The generic use of that term seems unobjectionable to me. What I'm objecting to is the usurping of highly localised, "artisanal" cheeses that take pride in their names and which have fought successfully for their names to be protected. Which they are - but not in America. I looked up protected UK names just now. Among them are Scotch Whisky, Melton Mowbray pork pies, Stilton cheese, Jersey Royal potatoes, West Country Farmhouse Cheddar, Scotch beef, Cornish pasties and Yorkshire Wensleydale cheese. Stilton is an interesting one. One specification is that it must be made with pasteurised milk. A fellow called Joe Schneider wanted to make a Stilton using raw milk but the rules wouldn't allow him. He made the cheese anyway with raw milk and called it Stichelton, which is a 12th century name for the village of Stilton. It's made on the farm where the cows are milked. It is a Stilton cheese in all but name, but it's ten times better. It doesn't travel well and it's hard to find, but in my opinion it's one of the finest of all British blue cheeses. They sometimes sell it at Gloucester and Tebay Services. Only buy it if it looks fresh ands isn't darkening too much at the edges. Coastal cheddar is made at Ford Farm in Dorset, a couple of hours' drive from me (maybe we were thinking of Davidstow creamery, which is only a few miles down the road). Ford Farm also make what I think is one of our finest cheddars, and our favourite, Wookey Hole Cave-aged, a West Country farmhouse cheddar. Davidstow cheeses are the antithesis of what I'm eulogising about. The factory is huge, ugly and prominent on the skyline. They take milk from over 300 farms and their articulated milk tankers routinely clog up the lanes in Devon and Cornwall. They've recently been fined over a million pounds for causing gross pollution of local waterways and local residents are made sick by the smell coming from from the factory. Their main brand here is Cathedral City cheddar (most supermarket cheese shelves are heaving with its several varieties), and they also push "premium" brands such as Cornish Cruncher. Their extra mature cheddar doesn't taste too bad, I admit, but it isn't in the same league as the cheddars from Ford Farm. If I wanted a cheaper, honest-to-goodness cheddar I'd buy Barber's from Morrisons or Sainsbury's, preferably the ones that say West Country Farmhouse on the label. I strongly disagree with the "cheese-is-just-cheese, wine-is-just-wine-blah-blah" attitude. Small producers producing their ware with love, care and attention have led the way down the centuries and that's something to celebrate. There's a McDonalds in every country I go to and that "Drink Coca-Cola" sign is in every town and village wherever you go. Good luck to 'em, but never decry the small things in life, or worse, steal their names. |
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07 Mar 23 - 11:02 AM (#4167100) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome The Wensleydale creamery is looking for production operatives if anyone is intertested I prefer Lancashire myself but I would say that wouldn't I :-D Out of interest the crumbly Lancashire that seems to be on sale in supermarkets everywhere is a new thing. The original is quite firm and usualy sold under the name 'Tasty Lancashire'. Quite creamy and tangy, and a far better product in my opinion. As they said in Life of Brian, "Blessed are the cheesemakers..." |
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07 Mar 23 - 11:05 AM (#4167102) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome Crossing to joke thread How do you tempt a grizzly with cheese? Camembert How do you smuggle cheese out of Wales? Caerphilly How do you disguise a horse with cheese? Mascapone |
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07 Mar 23 - 11:21 AM (#4167108) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Stilly River Sage The terroir of regional wines is unmistakable, and I imagine if the cows are all local, artisanal cheese might be as well. Mass production cuts corners in the name of profit and it blends flavors to find a standardized set to sell year round. We've become spoiled by the marketplace having seasonal stuff all seasons. |
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07 Mar 23 - 11:45 AM (#4167111) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw If you buy Morrisons "The Best" Wensleydale you're getting very nice cheese, the best thing for a cheese and tomato butty. I tried the Buttertubs from the Hawes creamery and was severely underwhelmed. I mean, there's citrussy and there's citrussy.... Mrs Appleby's is a superb Cheshire, a far cry from those salty, crumbly jobs you find everywhere. It's made with unpasteurised milk, always something to look out for. Another gorgeous raw milk cheese is Kirkham's Lancashire. I don't mind a bit of crumble every now and then but I know what you mean. Kirkham's gives you the best of both words, creamy and a bit crumbly! I'm no little Englander when it comes to cheese. I love Gruyère (hence my initial ire in this thread), Vallage triple, Montagnolo d'affine and St Agur. There's nowt better than some taleggio melted on to slow-fried potato slices in olive oil, or gorgonzola piccante mashed into a jacket potato. And a fridge without a lump of mozzarella lurking therein is a pub with no beer... |
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07 Mar 23 - 02:06 PM (#4167128) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome Singletons used to be good too but they have gone bust. Out of interest I just found this snippet "Tasty Lancashire cheese is the strongest Lancashire cheese in the country. Tangy, slight salty, creamy and crumbly, this is the only Lancashire cheese with PDO status which means it can only be made within 5 miles of Beacon Fell in the Forest of Bowland." |
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07 Mar 23 - 02:11 PM (#4167131) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome ...Mrs Kirkham's is 3.6 miles from Beacon Fell :-) |
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07 Mar 23 - 04:04 PM (#4167141) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Mrrzy Camenbert! Hahaha! I think Americans calling anything Milk that isn't from a mammary gland Milk is disgraceful. So is calling a bottle of chemicals Water. And Subway bread is cake. |
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07 Mar 23 - 06:49 PM (#4167160) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw But milk can never be a term confined to that of the produce of mammals, whether the producing beast is specified or not. There's coconut milk, the milk of human kindness, the Milky Way and the land flowing with milk and honey. Today we call things soya milk, oat milk, almond milk and the rest. The milk genie is out of the lamp, so there's no use in crying over spilt milk... |
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08 Mar 23 - 01:52 AM (#4167177) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Senoufou I drink gallons of whole milk and love it. But cheese, especially any kind of 'blue cheese' gives me dreadful vertigo. Many years ago I loved brie and Camembert, but I daren't touch it now. By the way, we've noticed that milk bought from Tesco or Morrisons goes off long before the date on the plastic bottle. You take the lid off, try to pour it into your cup of tea, and out comes lumpy cheesy muck.We keep it in the fridge, but often it's undrinkable. Anyone else had this problem? |
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08 Mar 23 - 02:50 AM (#4167178) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome We are one of the few who have our milk delivered and it is from a farm a mile away. We had to move to skimmed milk though because the semi skimmed was like full fat to us. No idea what the full fat is like though. Probably double cream! We have made curd cheese from it and it is very nice. An idea for you Sen? You don't use anything but milk. Wait till it goes lumpy. Wait a bit longer. Pour it in a cheesecloth then squeeze the cloth and let it finish draining for a bit. When it is done put it in a bowl and mix with whatever seasoning and/or herbs you want. It will keep a few days in the fridge. You can use the whey for something as well but we never have. |
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09 Mar 23 - 06:48 PM (#4167181) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw We use mostly unsweetened oat milk. No whey, José! For porridge and cereal, or just to swig, it's great. But in m'humble you need the cow tackle for cups of tea and coffee. So we buy ours in small amounts. By the way, you can freeze milk, and it comes to no harm. For tea, it's semi-skimmed. For decent coffee (we have a coffee machine that uses capsules), it has to be whole milk. |
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09 Mar 23 - 10:10 PM (#4167192) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Mrrzy Milk IS the product of mammary glands. Coconut and almond products aren't milk. The Milky Way is named for the milk from Hera's breasts when the infant Hercules sucked too hard or squoze or something. The land of milk and honey meant milk, and honey. Not a problem. |
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10 Mar 23 - 06:55 AM (#4167230) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw I suppose we call oat, almond, soya, etc., milks because they look like milk and you can use them like milk. Milk isn't a name-word in the same way as cheese names. I mean, we also use the word cheese for things that aren't cheese. All part of the rich tapestry of language, and unobjectionable in my opinion. |
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10 Mar 23 - 06:58 AM (#4167231) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome They even call the American spray on stuff cheese and, coming back to the point, they call something gruyere that just isn't! |
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12 Mar 23 - 06:36 AM (#4167356) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Neil D There is more Swiss cheese produced in Holmes County, Ohio than in all of Switzerland. |
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12 Mar 23 - 07:38 AM (#4167363) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw I suppose we have to give in to "Swiss cheese" and "cheddar," which are fights long lost. But when it comes to artisanal makers, or traditionally-made cheeses from small and distinct regions, then let's look after their names. |
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15 Mar 23 - 01:56 PM (#4167637) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw Dave, by "tasty Lancashire" do you mean that Butler's job? I tried that on Monday and it was very nice. We've been muchly enjoying Beauvale recently. It's a soft,creamy blue made by the Cropwell Bishop creamery (that also makes Stilton). It's a bit like a Gorgonzola dolce, but it's even richer and a bit softer, almost spreadable. A class act in m'humble! We've seen it loose in Waitrose and prepacked in M&S. Wednesday is cheese night but, as I had a tooth out today, it'll be soft cheese only, nibbled sans crackers. Fortunately, our lovely dentist Hana, with whom I share tasting notes, has absolutely not banned me from drinking red wine... it'll be for anaesthetic purposes only, natch... |
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15 Mar 23 - 03:41 PM (#4167643) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome Butlers is good but our local Mossers do one labelled Tasty Lancashire that is sublime once you take the cling film off and leave it at room temperature for an hour or two. |
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15 Mar 23 - 04:16 PM (#4167645) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Stilly River Sage I found a block of yellow Double Gloucester cheese from Ford Farm, the place Steve mentioned. It was part of a purchase made at my little gourmet food surplus warehouse that purchases from grocery wholesalers who usually supply mainstream grocery stores. Near its shelf date or just way too much, whatever they get is purchased at a deep discount, and this may be something that would have gone to one of the high end stores like Central Market or Whole Foods, except they didn't buy it. My luck. Town Talk repackages and sells for about half of what the mainstream stores would sell for. I get some excellent dairy products this way, to say nothing of meat, produce, and lots of staples. I have bread toasting then I'm going to slice some of this on top and put it under the toaster oven broiler for open face cheese sandwiches. Mmmmm! I have some soup to warm up for a perfect late lunch on a coolish spring day. |
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15 Mar 23 - 04:56 PM (#4167650) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Steve Shaw We never worry about sell-by dates on hard cheeses. If they look good and smell good we just scoff 'em, often three months out of date. Soft cheeses are very different. I've had mouldy mozzarella just two or three days out of date, and camembert and brie die quickly. Blue cheeses are simply not meant to be kept for any length of time. I haven't tried that double Gloucester but I'll look out for it. |
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15 Mar 23 - 06:08 PM (#4167652) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Jack Campin Lancashire cheese is indistinguishable from Turkish "tulum" (bag) cheese, the traditional filling for a cheese pide. I don't think Turkey has controlled names of origin but they ought to. The biggest variety of cheeses I have ever seen in one place was at the cheese market in Trabzon and they were all local to the Black Sea coastal region. |
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16 Mar 23 - 02:51 PM (#4167737) Subject: RE: BS: What's in a (cheesy) name? From: Dave the Gnome Never tried it Jack but if I ever do I shall give you a Lancastrian turophile's unbiased review :-) |