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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

21 Jun 23 - 05:57 AM (#4175125)
Subject: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Because part 2 of the single thread for UK politics has reached over 1000 posts I hope to start a new one here. The old one should be closed soon.

The end of the old thread


21 Jun 23 - 06:12 AM (#4175130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The end of the old thread?   The old thread just told me that it's a frayed knot...


21 Jun 23 - 08:05 AM (#4175156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Is this the joke thread? :-D


21 Jun 23 - 09:30 AM (#4175160)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I've just done a longer post that won't post. Grr. I'll try again, whenever...


21 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM (#4175166)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

The Cat's had hiccups on and off for a few days.


21 Jun 23 - 04:50 PM (#4175186)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Only if it's Tories we're talking about...

Watched a documentary called the Labour Files on YouTube last night. OK, it was made (or put together) by Al Jazeera. It dealt with the downfall of Jeremy Corbyn, particularly with regard to the trumped-up antisemitism nonsense. How Labour apparatchik insiders and not a few MPs, including John Mann, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge and Ruth Smeeth, especially those with sympathies for Israel, ganged up to demonise him. How Labour were forced into the position of having to accept the deeply flawed IHRA definition of antisemitism. How Zionism, antisemitism and criticism of Israel were conflated in order to prevent any criticism of Israel and how reporting of the treatment of Palestinians was virtually set aside. There were plenty of other disturbing revelations.

I'm not looking for confirmation bias and I was extremely aware of the Al Jazeera logo at the bottom of the screen. But I'm piqued into delving a bit more. Anyone who feels the need to criticise Corbyn (and he certainly isn't beyond criticism) should reflect on whether their opinions were formed by dint of what they got from our mainstream media. Even the "unbiased" BBC has a lot to answer for in light of that infamous Panorama documentary. It's lazy talk to characterise him as "a weak leader who led Labour to their worst defeat since the thirties," etc. A bit more deep digging is required in order to see what really went on, especially in the Labour Party. And Starmer doesn't get a free pass either, far from it.


25 Jun 23 - 01:40 PM (#4175466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I just can't bring myself to watch that, Steve. What the Labour party has become is so sad that I cannot bear to get it confirmed any more!


09 Jul 23 - 02:08 AM (#4176416)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Labour ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ at Selby byelection as hopes grow of shock win
I can't see how that could really work out well. If Labour do get the seat, they will send a signal that they can win similar seats in the General Election when it occurs, but they will not be able to "throw the kitchen sink" at every such seat, so it will give a false impression of their ability to win. And of course, there is a very high chance of letting the Conservatives win by spittibg the vote.

Probably the best result is if Labour do throw the kitchen sink at the seat, but the LibDems still win. In that case, maybe more intelligent tactics will be used for the GE.


09 Jul 23 - 06:25 AM (#4176422)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I agree. And byelections tend to produce maverick results, and these two, whatever happens, will be relegated in the public mind by the time the next election comes round. Playing a straight bat would be less unseemly. That reminds me: I'm just about due to tune into the third Test...


10 Jul 23 - 05:27 AM (#4176497)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Following the ‘painting over cartoon-character murals’ exercise at a reception centre for the children of asylum-seekers because, according to the Immigration Minister Robert Jenrick, they were ‘too welcoming’, I’ve borrowed this from the social media post of a person I know personally. Nail/head, AFAIC…

”Three poems for a Morally Vacant Government that uses Petty Cruelty as a stick with which to beat lost, lonely and already damaged children...

#1) "WELL, MR JENRICK, IF WE DIDN’T ALREADY KNOW WHAT TYPE OF HEARTLESS PEOPLE YOUR PARTY ARE, WE DO NOW.

Don’t let the children have a look
At Mickey Mouse or The Jungle Book
Paint over, make them disappear
We don’t want a welcome here"
- Paul Cookson

#2) "No Mickey Mouse
Allowed in this house
We’re not talking child protection
It’s about votes
‘Stopping the boats’
So this is a house of correction
A cartoon’s too nice
For a heart made of ice
It must be painted over
The message unsaid:
Your folks may be dead
But the graves don’t end in Dover"
- Attila the Stockbroker

#3) "Paint over Mickey Mouse
Burn Where the Wild Things Are
Pulverise the lego
Set fire to the Christmas tree star.

Seize all the teddies
Bury every skipping rope
Paint the walls dark brown
Abolish all hope."
- Michael Rosen


10 Jul 23 - 01:32 PM (#4176533)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

.... Ah *that*'s why the English news is wall-to-wall coverage of that kerfuffle about a Beeb presenter: stir up a Saville-storm, and nobody remembers Mickey Mouse being painted over, or Thames Water being sold off and collapsing in a cloud of debt and excrement, or [snip: I too forget them all]. The only escape is Radio Four, whose news bulletins cover more than one subject (they don't yet suffer from Bone-of-the-Week syndrome), and where the satire programmes tell us what's really going on.


15 Jul 23 - 03:05 AM (#4176903)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Mr Red

Jeremy Corbyn, particularly with regard to the trumped-up antisemitism nonsense

As I remember it, he overtly supported things "not Israel/Jewish" and that was to garner support from those less covert in their anti-Israel stance. Other views are available, subject to confirmation bias.

And while we are "on topic", Corbyn was not only un-electable, and obviously so, he wanted Brexshit so he could make his own laws that weren't necessarily European ones. His public stance on Brexshit was to leave a free vote. A prudent or timid position depending on which side of the 50/50 you sit.

Cue accusations of being Tory or something, here it comes..........................


15 Jul 23 - 11:19 AM (#4176934)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Nope. The appropriate response to that is that you are suffering severely from Daily Mailism. You forget that, against all the odds, he trashed Theresa May's majority in 2017. That's when his own party did the right's dirty work in demonising him, both via senior members refusing to join his shadow cabinet and via a small gang of Israeli regime apologists confecting a bogus antisemitism campaign against him. Yes we party members in massive numbers held our heads and groaned at his stance on brexit. As a party leader he was flawed. Michael Foot was similar in many regards. But make no mistake: it was not that Corbyn was unelectable, rather that his own party made him unelectable - deliberately so. It seemed that they'd rather lose an election than have him as leader. You can largely thank all those Labour right-wingers for delivering Boris Johnson to us. Not the only factor, of course. After 2017 the surprised right-wing gutter press decided that they needed to go to town on Corbyn. The Tories hardly had to bother. It was all also an object lesson on how you can't make it without an army of vicious spin-doctors.

Whether you're Tory or not is your private business unless you choose to divulge.


15 Jul 23 - 11:47 AM (#4176937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

When I refer to the party, I'm talking about the party's political establishment, not the hundreds of thousands of party members who joined when he was elected leader. The right in the party don't like us much, either. They don't care that we're leaching away in droves. In fact, they welcome it. Too many of us are on the left for their taste. And look what we have now: an unprincipled leader whose best skill is U-turning on policy and who is just as unconvincing as Corbyn, with his only saving grace being that the right of the party prop him up while the left are either expelled on the most puny of pretexts or who, alternatively, had better shut up.


19 Jul 23 - 09:57 AM (#4177231)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve:
I think you're being a little disingenuous (or looking through RED-tinted glasses) in claiming that Corbyn trashed May's majority.
My view would be that that was mainly down to Theresa may failing to make good on Brexit, and making too many concessions to Brussels thus leaving us in a much poorer negotiating position.
If it was down to Corbyn, why did he not repeat the result against Boris two years later?


19 Jul 23 - 10:23 AM (#4177233)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Who is being a little disingenuous now, Nigel?

Do you not think that the media and right wing of the Labour party had anything to do with Corbyn's defeat 2 years later? When it is known that members of his own party would rather lose the election than have him as leader it became impossible to repeat the earlier result.


19 Jul 23 - 10:23 AM (#4177234)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well it was a general election with two main antagonists. Admittedly, the old saw that elections are lost rather than won has more than a grain of truth, as you're suggesting in this case. But the result was unexpected (and she did lose her overall majority: trashed?), it set alarm bells ringing on the right (as well as among the right in the Labour Party) and it triggered an onslaught by the right-wing media and from within his own party for the next two years. He is a naive, unspun man (not good qualities in a leader, I'm the first to admit) and he didn't know how to counter the attacks, and he accorded his opponents a field day when it came to brexit. Elections are won and lost for many complex reasons and it's impossible to to assign relative importance accurately to any one of them, but I take your point.

Cheers for your civilly-expressed and thoughtful disagreement, Nigel. We could use more of that.


19 Jul 23 - 11:47 AM (#4177242)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

No-one in Labour is ever going to admit it, but the onslaught on Corbyn from within the party during that two years, executed in the knowledge that the Tories would never contemplate a full term with a shabby minority shored up only by a bunch of illiberal antediluvian types in Northern Ireland, amounted to a deliberate suicide note for the next election. Even had Corbyn resigned before the election, the scramble for a new leader (go on - tell me who!) would still have guaranteed defeat. In the unlikely event of a Corbyn victory in 2019, the right in the party would not have been able to stomach him as PM. The party right wanted him to lose so that they could then do what they're doing now, trying to abolish the left of the party completely and ruthlessly. The last time we had a leftie PM was Atlee, when the circumstances were extraordinary. Labour's core at the top has always been to the right of its centre. It's their party and they're ruthless bastards...

But it won't work for long. That's history for you.


20 Jul 23 - 02:52 PM (#4177291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

From Attila The Stockbroker today - right on the button as usual…

”Farage is a banker
Who can no longer bank
The rhyme is far too obvious
But just once Coutts I’ll thank
Though while we roar with laughter
And try not to think of tissues
Remember it’s a smokescreen
To distract from other issues”


20 Jul 23 - 04:59 PM (#4177304)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Of course, the Coutts/Farage story was reported by the BBC who claimed that his account was closed because his funding was insufficient for a Coutts account.
It has now been proved otherwise.

Remember Pastor Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist


Do we really want banks that can deny you an account because they disagree with your political leanings?


20 Jul 23 - 06:02 PM (#4177311)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Most banks have right-wing leanings, at least it seems that way if we scrutinise their predilection for investing our money in organisations which will give them the best returns as opposed to organisations that try to be moral or ethical. There are several banks that abide by Sharia law, and in many ways they are far more "moral" than our friendly high street banks. For example, they will not invest in companies that deal in alcohol or gambling. But hey.

The Farage farrago should be seen for what it is: the distempered blustering of a man who is providing us with an amusing aside. He said today that Coutts is just a political campaigning setup. As they won't have you unless you have three million, I was wondering which side they are supposedly campaigning for. Doubt whether it would for anyone on the left...


21 Jul 23 - 02:29 AM (#4177325)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

It was the last two lines in Attila’s little piece that were the most telling and important, AFAIC. I don’t give a flying you-know-what about the gobby man-frog’s financial arrangements or lack of them, and his public display of self-pity disgusts me, but every time there’s a media tempest in a teapot about something inconsequential to the vast majority of us, I wonder what they’re trying to distract us from - usually the actions of this dishonest, rapacious government.


21 Jul 23 - 04:03 AM (#4177330)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

I’ve never understood the obsession of the press and media with Farage - a failed would-be politician, the former leader of a small minority-party, who never even managed to get elected to Parliament. He’s a has-been, more likely a never-was, a nobody.


21 Jul 23 - 07:08 AM (#4177341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Mebbe it's just me, but I regard the Uxbridge result as a shot across Labour's bows. The ULEZ factor clearly lost Labour this seat and there are plenty more vulnerable seats in London. The ULEZ expansion is an unfair and clumsy move, and, now that it's lost us what should have been an easy seat to pick up, it's going to be hard to reverse without Labour looking bloody stupid. Not trying to be environmentally unfriendly here, by the way, but blackmailing thousands of Londoners into having to change their cars within nine months (whilst leaving most Chelsea tractor gas-guzzlers alone) or pay punitive daily fees is simply not the way forward. If you have an older, non-compliant car, you're more likely to be among the less well-off. Punishing their owners is not my idea of the Labour way. Bad judgements costs seats. Blair got in by avoiding bad judgements in the mid-1990s. Can't trust Starmer to do the same. He's put an unfair cap on child benefits, he won't support public sector trade unions, he's backtracked on several pledges already...


21 Jul 23 - 07:33 AM (#4177344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

I agree about Sadiq Khan’s ULEZ changes, a bad miscalculation on his part. But there was still a swing to Labour - a 7k Tory majority reduced to 475. On that basis, ‘vulnerable’ Labour seats in Greater London must surely be ‘safer’?


21 Jul 23 - 01:10 PM (#4177365)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

But the ULEZ thing has opened a Pandora's box. These schemes are in the offing in several other large urban (Labour) areas. In each case you are, in effect, telling poorer motorists, the ones with older cars, that they'd better scrap them. I bought a diesel in 2010 when the story was that diesels were the saviours of the world. Its emissions were so low that my road tax was thirty quid a year. I changed that car last year and I don't live in the ULEZ zones, so it doesn't apply to me, but if it had my car would have been non-compliant. Had I been told that I either get rid of my car or pay £12.50 per day, not only would I be hopping mad but I'd also feel cheated after having bought it in good faith. Not good enough, Labour, favouring the rich and shitting on the poor.

And give the Tories the notion that single issues can swing elections. Disastrous.


21 Jul 23 - 02:39 PM (#4177370)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

As I said previously, I agree about the folly of Khan’s ULEZ expansion, for the reasons you’ve given. And the Tories already know that ‘single issues can swing elections’ - don’t tell me you’ve already forgotten ‘Get Brexit Done’?


21 Jul 23 - 02:49 PM (#4177372)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Exactly!


21 Jul 23 - 06:47 PM (#4177391)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I said just after he was elected leader that Starmer is a loser and a follower of what he perceives to be fashion. I said that he will not win the next election. Since then we've had Johnson's disreputable behaviour and we've had Truss and Kamikaze, and a pandemic that the Tories handled so badly that there were tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths. I still don't think that Stodgy Starmer will win. At best, he might end up leading the biggest party. Then what. He makes misstep after misstep. He told his MPs that they mustn't join picket lines. The leader of a party spawned by trade unions telling his ministers not to join legitimate trade union pickets! He's tried to sideline the left using the most dishonest and flimsy ploys. He's refused to support public sector unions in their fight against Tory austerity and thirteen years of pay freezes. He supports the Tories' inhuman cap on child benefit. He won't even say that he'll honour pay review body recommendations. Plenty more, including broken pledges. A terrible shadow chancellor. A London Labour mayor who is screwing the poor and indulging the wealthy.

We might hold our noses and do whatever we can to vote out the Tories. Out. But there will be no ringing endorsement of Starmer. Wrong man, wrong time.


21 Jul 23 - 07:26 PM (#4177396)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

I said just after he was elected leader that Starmer is a loser and a follower of what he perceives to be fashion. I said that he will not win the next election.

This will continue for as long as Keir Starmer tries to be everything to everybody without committing himself to any policies.

I'm quite happy to let him continue as he is.


22 Jul 23 - 02:08 PM (#4177450)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Khan and Starmer have their private barney about ULEZ. I'll bet anyone here at least sixpence that the policy on ULEZ will change.


22 Jul 23 - 02:10 PM (#4177451)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

For once, Steve, I hope you’re right.


24 Jul 23 - 05:03 AM (#4177566)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Feeling the pinch in these days of rip-roaring inflation? Happy to settle (after years of pay freezes and austerity, even though "we are all in it together") for a pay rise around half the rate of inflation? Why, the answer is to be the King! As from 2025, he's to get a 45% rise!

From the Guardian:

...the government has seen fit to offer the new king a rise estimated to be 45% from 2025. The precise figure will depend on profits from the government property portfolio known as the crown estate. The projected increase of £38.5m, taking the sovereign grant from £86m to £125m, undermines King Charles’s often-cited commitment to “slim down” the monarchy.

The decision, which was taken by a committee of three people – prime minister Rishi Sunak, the chancellor Jeremy Hunt, and the keeper of the privy purse, Sir Michael Stevens...


So is this ancient, bumbling national parasite worth it, d'ye think? Does it swing it for you that his missus is such a sparkling, witty personality?


24 Jul 23 - 05:09 AM (#4177567)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Oh and by the way, during the ten years of Tory austerity since 2013, the Sovereign Grant has gone up from £31 million to £86 million. To them that have, it shall be given, commenteth the Lord....


24 Jul 23 - 06:25 AM (#4177568)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

.... Man shall not live by bread alone, but try thou convincing thine income tax inspector.


24 Jul 23 - 06:32 AM (#4177569)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

I think you’re preaching to the wrong congregation on here, Steve. I get the feeling that the majority of us are already in agreement with you, and I can think of only one contributor, maybe two, who is/are sufficiently brainwashed by Right-Wing propaganda to disagree.


24 Jul 23 - 07:01 AM (#4177571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stanron

"Feeling the pinch in these days of rip-roaring inflation? Happy to settle (after years of pay freezes and austerity, even though "we are all in it together") for a pay rise around half the rate of inflation? Why, the answer is to be the King! As from 2025, he's to get a 45% rise!"

"I think you’re preaching to the wrong congregation on here, Steve. I get the feeling that the majority of us are already in agreement with you, and I can think of only one contributor, maybe two, who is/are sufficiently brainwashed by Right-Wing propaganda to disagree."

Typical lefty group think. Stoking jealousy with lies.

Sovereign Grant only occurs after all income from royal estates go directly to the Treasury. An inconvenient truth for lefties.


24 Jul 23 - 07:12 AM (#4177572)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”I can think of only one contributor, maybe two, who is/are sufficiently brainwashed by Right-Wing propaganda to disagree.”

And, right on cue, up pops the second brainwashed one I was thinking of… :-) :-)


24 Jul 23 - 07:55 AM (#4177575)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Yup! The profits from the Crown Estate should go back to the people, which is who the Crown Estate should morally belong to. Instead, a huge sum from those profits is hived off every year to further enrich one of the richest men in the country, a man who does nothing in connection with the Crown Estate to earn that money. In my view it's a massive scandal, but, as ever, the establishment will do its damnedest to legitimise it, and will succeed. That's how people like Stanron are hoodwinked into thinking that it's all OK. Stick a crown and a few robes on Charlie (slaughter a bit of game first), send him abroad every now and then to be cheered by flag-waving picaninnies, get him to ride his regalia-bedecked horse every June and wave at us from a balcony surrounded by his fellow parasites and their brats, and hardly anyone will notice...

Worth a moment looking into the Crown Estate, by the way. It's one of the most powerful institutions in the country. It owns all of our seabed and over half the foreshore, thousands of acres of land and lucrative properties in our towns, cities and countryside, among other things. A graduated land tax would sort 'em out, but there I am again sailing into cloud cuckoo land...


24 Jul 23 - 08:08 AM (#4177579)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Is the Crown more powerful than the banks?


24 Jul 23 - 07:20 PM (#4177587)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

What do you mean by "the Crown"?


24 Jul 23 - 07:54 PM (#4177593)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Mrs Steve and I were very sad when we heard of the passing of George Alagiah. What a fantastic reporter he was, and, by all accounts, he was a great humanitarian and a lovely man to work with.


25 Jul 23 - 05:51 PM (#4177644)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I'm seeing news reports on the BBC about the devastation caused to civilians in the civil war in Yemen. Villages devastated, children with limbs blown off, that sort of thing. Not a single mention of the fact that we have provided £15 billions of weapons to Saudi and the UAE since the start of the war. Weapons being used to bomb villages and blow children up. Still, never mind. We can just let them infiltrate and take over our biggest sports teams and mop up our best footballers with promises of wages of tens or hundreds of millions a year. I think we call it sportswashing.

Let me guess: oil...


28 Jul 23 - 09:11 AM (#4177835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

When you say the profits from the Crown Estate should go to the people, that is what happens. Or rather, they go to the Treasury, which is as close as "the people" are going to get. The Sovereign Grant isn't the King's wages but is to cover the cost of official duties, including staff salaries and travel. It doesn't go to enrich the King personally, and any surplus goes to a reserve fund to be used for future spending.

It's entirely legitimate to argue that these duties should be reduced in scale, but for the time being most people seem to quite like having a royal come to open their new hospital wing. Even if we replaced the monarchy with a president, that would still have to be paid for.

The Sovereign Grant is higher than usual because it includes the cost of refurbishing Buckingham Palace. The building is an asset of the state, and if it weren't paid for through the Sovereign Grant it would simply come out of some government department's budget.

£125 million sounds a lot, and it is. However set against total government spending of £1,283 billion a year it is a drop in the ocean. If it were to be abolished entirely (and there will always be some costs to have a head of state) this would make no discernible difference to the public finances.

There are very good arguments both for and against abolishing the monarchy, but the Sovereign Grant is a red herring.


28 Jul 23 - 09:50 AM (#4177837)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: G-Force

£125 million is about £2 each, which is less than half a pint in a pub round here. I'd miss the monarchy but I don't notice the half pint.


28 Jul 23 - 09:57 AM (#4177838)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash

I'd rather have the half.


28 Jul 23 - 10:31 AM (#4177840)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Minimising the impact of the grant on us all is the real red herring. It's the principle of the thing. He's one of the country's richest men yet we get to pay for his new roof "because it's a state asset." Really? It's actually a very average building and an "asset" to no-one except brainless tourists who go to gawp through the railings. And you'd have a tough time showing that its presence brings in any extra revenue, as (as has been mentioned several times before) hardly any of the "royal assets" ever make the top twenty tourist attractions in this country. We'd get by very nicely thank you in terms of tourism without their "assets." Pretending that it doesn't matter because it's only the price of a half-pint he's stealing from each and every one of us is like me justifying stealing a bunch of bananas from Sainsbury's because "they're only worth a quid." Yeah, right...


28 Jul 23 - 01:24 PM (#4177852)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

"brainless tourists who go to gawp"

And how many places have you gone to gawp? Or does that count?


28 Jul 23 - 02:18 PM (#4177861)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

I doubt many publicly owned buildings generate income, that is not really what most state activities are intended for. Nevertheless the royal residences earned nearly £50m from tourism in 2019-20.

Buck House is mainly an administrative building for the head of state, with offices and function rooms. Come the revolution you can sell it off, and it might raise enough to pay for the NHS for a day or two. Until then it is the responsibility of the state. It is not the King's roof, it is the government's, and they are giving him the money to fix it. An elected head of state will still need an official residence and an administration.

The role of head of state, whether a hereditary monarch or elected president, is a function of government to be paid for from the public purse, which is funded by taxation and income from revenue-producing activities, including the Crown Estate. It is legitimate to question those costs, and in a democracy to campaign for change. However it is a nonsense to claim that this is "stealing" from us, any more than the costs of running other state functions such as 10 Downing Street, the Foreign Office or indeed your local library are stealing from us.

In the context of the public finances £125m is a rounding error.


28 Jul 23 - 03:49 PM (#4177878)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

When an extremely rich man is obtaining the price of a half-pint from someone on a low wage who relies on food banks, and does it without that person's permission, I call that stealing.


28 Jul 23 - 06:40 PM (#4177914)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"Buck House is mainly an administrative building for the head of state, with offices and function rooms."

Absolutely not the case. Do read the wiki article on Buckingham Palace. You'll be amazed at what goes on there on top of the "administrative" side of things (which could easily be executed in ordinary offices anywhere in the country, by the way). And we pay for it, including the hundreds of millions needed to renovate it. As for the Crown Estate, and those huge "duchies" that Charlie owns, they simply should not exist beyond full nationalised control, and the filthy-rich monarch should not be able to hive off tens or hundreds of millions per annum from them for purposes that are generally hidden from public view and which are dubious at best.

Finally, are you able to tell us what happens to the fifty million that the "royal residences"(gosh, don't they need so many of them! Still, I don't suppose there are too many grouse to shoot at round Buckingham Palace) earned last year?


28 Jul 23 - 06:42 PM (#4177915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

That Charlie or his parasitic offspring owns, I should have said...


28 Jul 23 - 07:36 PM (#4177918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve: hardly any of the "royal assets" ever make the top twenty tourist attractions in this country.

This site gives:
#9 The Tower of London
#11 Buckingham Palace
#12 Windsor Castle

Would you care to let us know where you find your top 20?


28 Jul 23 - 08:01 PM (#4177919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

So your best shot is Buck House at number 11! And we've had this thing about the Tower of London before, haven't we? Would you care to tell us when it was last occupied by any royal? And please don't regale me with the fact that it's the shameful home of the disgusting Crown Jewels...

As for the most popular, it's depends on which website you look things up. The Visit Britain site gives two top ten lists, free ones and paid ones. No royal attraction makes it to either list, not even the Tower if you really insist on having it as a royal attraction, which I heartily dispute. And that website does it by numbers of visitors, not by someone's subjective opinion.


28 Jul 23 - 08:12 PM (#4177920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

That is a bit of a daft presumption, isn't it?

Do you really believe that the draw to the Tower of London is the current members of the royal family? I would have thought that the attraction would be the associations with William the Conqueror, the tudors, imprisonments, tortures and executions, the ravens. In all, distant history - I don;t think the 1940s executions are much of a royal connection. I will concede that the crown jewels is an attraction, but I would dispute id this would a sole reason or even a main reason for visiting the attraction. I would argue that people visit Windsor castle because it is a castle that is accessible and just outside of London. I suppose I should concede regarding Buckingham Palace which would mean that the royal family co contributes to no more than 5% if hospitability and tourism. Also, if the monarchy was abolished, would Buckingham Palace be any less of interest? From my knowledge the Palace of Versailles doesn't suffer in visitor numbers through France being a republic.


28 Jul 23 - 08:25 PM (#4177922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Good post. Just to reiterate that the Visit Britain website includes neither Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle nor the Tower in either top ten. Though I must say, you did forget the Beefeaters... :-)


29 Jul 23 - 06:12 AM (#4177944)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

In the British constitution (and we do have one, even if it's not set out in a single document) "the Crown" represents what in other countries might be referred to as the State. It includes not only the Sovereign but also the executive (the UK and devolved governments), the legislature (parliament) and the judiciary. Most of the powers of the Crown are exercised by these institutions.

You don't seem to recognise the distinction between Charles as an individual and the position he holds. As an individual is indeed very wealthy (although not exceptionally so - he is only 263 in the Sunday Times Rich List). However as Sovereign he also performs an official role on behalf of the State, and the cost of this should be paid for by the State. These costs don't come out of your or my taxes but from income from property owned by the State.

You call for the Crown Estate to be nationalised. The Crown Estate belongs to the Sovereign, but this means the role rather than the person holding it. In other words, it belongs to the State, and to all intents and purposes has done since the eighteenth century. It is not King Charles's personal property. It is managed by an independent board who are accountable to Parliament, and its profits all go to the Treasury. In what respect is this not nationalised?

The State has overheads, which include the costs of performing the Sovereign's official duties. To repeat myself, the Sovereign Grant is not a personal payment to the King, any more than the £22m or so it costs to run Downing Street are a personal payment to Rishi Sunak.

You may consider some of these costs to be unnecessary or wasteful. That's a perfectly respectable point of view. However in the context of total public spending the amount is trivial, and even if the Sovereign Grant were to be abolished entirely it would make no discernible different to the public finances.


29 Jul 23 - 06:26 AM (#4177945)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash

"However in the context of total public spending the amount is trivial"

Perhaps you could arrange for me to have just 10% of the costs of running Downing Street, as you say £2.2 million is a trivial amount. I promise you will never hear me complain ever again.


.


29 Jul 23 - 06:37 AM (#4177946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve: Good post. Just to reiterate that the Visit Britain website includes neither Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle nor the Tower in either top ten. Though I must say, you did forget the Beefeaters... :-

Nice of you to iterate. But you haven't given a link to your source. Yes 'Visit Britain' can be searched, and their list of attractions is Here
Not only is it false to claim that The Tower doesn't appear, it is listed as No1 in the 'paid' attractions.

So your best shot is Buck House at number 11! And we've had this thing about the Tower of London before, haven't we? Would you care to tell us when it was last occupied by any royal? 1603 apparently

Shifting the goalposts?
hardly any of the "royal assets" ever make the top twenty tourist attractions in this country.

There is a difference between 'royal assets' and assets 'occupied' by royals.


29 Jul 23 - 06:48 AM (#4177948)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well I'm not going to argue with you over those technicalities but I'd like to come back at you with two points. First, so he's "only" no 263 on the Sunday Times rich list and you don't think that's exceptional. Well in a country of sixty-odd million people, I think that 263rd richest is exceptionally exceptional. By the way, he's as rich as that because he inherited his riches, not because he worked for them, and his ancestors amassed that wealth over centuries by nefarious means, including taking it from the people, exploiting the labour of the people and indulging in the slave trade. Nice.

Second, you say that the amount is trivial in the overall scheme of things. Apart from the fact that £125 million is hardly what I'd call trivial, it's the principle of the thing. Millions of people in this country, given the choice and the facts of the matter, would probably disapprove of this gift from the nation, but choice in the matter we have not. As for his necessary expenses, etc., which he has the money hundreds of times over to pay for out of his own pocket, he travels everywhere in the lap of luxury and is carted around, not in a J-reg Astra or on Ryanair but in a fleet limousines that has cost us millions and in private jets that are entirely at his disposal. A bit more comfy than my budget flight to Malaga in a few weeks' time, yet I'm giving HIM money and he gives me nothing.

Trivial? Well that bunch of bananas I'm thinking of stealing from Sainsbury's is trivial to Sainsbury's, almost representing a victimless crime. But you wouldn't defend it, would you?


29 Jul 23 - 06:51 AM (#4177949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

Of course to you or me these are large sums. But in the context of total public spending of £1182 billion a year the £125m Sovereign Grant represents only 0.01%. As I said in a previous post, that's a rounding error.

If every penny of public expenditure were spent effectively then perhaps if the Sovereign Grant were abolished it might make a difference. The fact is that some waste and inefficiencies are inevitable even in the most rigorous organisation, and the public sector does not have a record of rigorous financial controls or efficiencies. The reality is that even if the Sovereign Grant could be entirely abolished it would not enable the government to cut taxes or improve public services. This is why I used the word "trivial".


29 Jul 23 - 06:54 AM (#4177950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Oops, sorry, Nigel. I failed to spot that narrow white strip at the top of the table. That doesn't change my view that the Tower should in no way be regarded as a royal asset. As you point out, it has not be used by the royals for four hundred years except to house their disgusting collection of jewellery, which anyone with even a smidgeon of principle should boycott.


29 Jul 23 - 06:56 AM (#4177951)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Nice bit of whataboutery there, Howard.


29 Jul 23 - 09:13 AM (#4177966)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

That's not really the point Howard. The bloke could easily afford the £125 million a year himself but the government choses to pay it out of taxes raised on everyones income. Including mine and yours. I object most strongly to my meagre income being used to subsidise the 263rd richest person in the world.


29 Jul 23 - 11:33 AM (#4177982)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

People aren't normally expected to pay the running costs of doing their job. For example, if a minister travels on official business you'd expect their department to pay for their travel costs regardless of their personal wealth. Why should the King be different? We don't expect Rishi Sunak, who's very nearly as rich, to pay for the costs of Downing Street and its staff out of his own pocket. The Sovereign Grant is actually the budget for running a department of the state. It is not a payment into the King's own pocket for him to use for his own purposes. If the monarchy were to be replaced by an elected president would you expect them to pay for all the costs of official business themselves?

Neither does it come out of your or my taxes. It comes out of the income from property owned by the state. State spending runs at over £3 billion pounds a day, and abolishing the Sovereign Grant would pay for less than an hour of that. That's not going to bring down your or my taxes.


29 Jul 23 - 12:33 PM (#4177983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

It's still money that doesn't rightfully belong to him whether you call it tax or not. I don't equate what he does with a "job", either. And comparing his "expenses" with those of the PM is simply laughable. The PM runs the country and, on the whole, does not indulge at frequent intervals in extravagant pageantry. When the PM resigns or loses an election, he's booted out of Downing Street in summary fashion. That can never be the fate of Charlie apropos of Buckingham Palace or any of his other ill-gotten residences.


29 Jul 23 - 12:56 PM (#4177987)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Doing his job Howard? How does that equate to earning millions from the properties that he inherited from the people who 'acquired' them in various dodgy ways or being paid for doing sweet FA in the running of the country? I would never expect people to pay for doing an honest day's work but you are being very disingenuous suggesting that Charlie is doing either an honest day's work or making money for the country.


29 Jul 23 - 04:01 PM (#4178001)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

The Royal Family carried out around 3000 engagements last year. These included community visits, meeting visiting heads of state, investitures, garden parties etc. It doesn't include the weekly meetings with the PM, approving legislation or other constitutional duties. You may think these unnecessary or pointless pageantry, but successive governments have agreed that these are appropriate activities for the head of state. They are not of a nature which directly generates income for the country, but indirectly they contribute to international relations, and community visits and garden parties help to boost morale within the UK.

If you don't like that, campaign for change to elect a government which will get rid of it, as may happen soon in Australia. However I think you'll find that an elected president has a very similar workload. Take a look at the Irish president's engagements for example and you'll see they are of a very similar nature.

Steve is concerned that the money "doesn't rightfully belong to him", but it goes to him only in the same way as a government department's budget goes to the Secretary of State. The money is to cover the costs of the king's official duties. It doesn't go to the king personally. As far as I am aware he isn't paid a salary for performing these official duties, and his personal expenditure comes out of his private income.

You seem to have an inflated idea of his personal wealth. The Sunday Times Rich List estimates his personal wealth at £600m. That's a very tidy sum, but it's capital, not income. He could not "well afford" to pay £125m a year. Do the sums.

To repeat, these are the facts:

The Crown Estate belongs to the state, it is not the personal property of the monarch. 100% of its profits go to the Treasury, and its board is answerable to parliament. For those calling for it to be nationalised, that has effectively been the position since the eighteenth century.

The Sovereign Grant does not come out of general taxation but from the profits of the Crown Estate.

The Sovereign Grant is to cover the costs of the official duties of the monarch. It does not go to the king personally. It is overseen by trustees who are also answerable to parliament. Any surplus does not go into the king's pocket but to a reserve fund.

The Sovereign Grant amounts to around 0.01% of all public expenditure. Any changes to it either way don't materially affect the public finances. There are many respectable arguments for getting rid of the monarchy, but the cost savings to the public purse would not be noticeable.


29 Jul 23 - 04:28 PM (#4178005)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

It's not the cost saving to the public purse. It's the principle. Anyway, you're a dyed-in-the-wool royalist and I'm a republican (small r please). Sadly, the twain are unlikely to meet in this case. I'm sure you're a lovely, jovial fellow. That'll do me.


29 Jul 23 - 05:48 PM (#4178011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash

Michael D Higgins, the President of Ireland, earns 250,000 Euro for his role.

I make that 1 500th of the fee.


29 Jul 23 - 06:04 PM (#4178012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

More facts about the Sovereign Grant that could have Howard shifting uncomfortably from one buttock to the other:

The money pays not just for Charlie's junkets but also for those of a good number of royal hangers-on, identities unspecified. The Queen's funeral and his subsequent coronation cost the taxpayer over £200 million. It's late but I'll keep digging...


30 Jul 23 - 05:53 PM (#4178065)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve:
Imagine this.
We go back to everyone owning their own little plot of land, and using it to grow vegetables (and if they're very lucky to fatten livestock).
If they can't provide for their families just from this, and from trading food for services that they require (work on their habitations, etc.) They will probably end up using someone (further up the 'food chain') to arrange a 'fair' method of exchanging what they can produce for what they need to buy.
Allowing for this intermediary to make some sort of a living from this eventually you'll get a system where those who produce foodstuffs and are providing goods to those who can't, need a middle-man arranging the dealings, and taking a cut.
Eventually the middle-man will expand what he's doing and make a small profit from everyone who he is helping to deal 'what they have' for 'what they want' as people with a product to sell don't always want something that their prospective buyers want to exchange.

Just swap the 'government' or 'the royal family' for the 'middle man'.


30 Jul 23 - 06:43 PM (#4178073)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones

€250,000 is the President of Ireland's salary. That does actually go into his own pocket, whereas as far as I am aware the King does not receive a salary. The cost of running the Office of the President is more than €4.8m. That is of course considerably less than the Sovereign Grant, but it covers the same sort of expenses - staff, office costs, travel etc.

I can't find a figure for the number of engagements the President carries out, but it is probably in the hundreds rather than the 3000 or so carried out by the Royal Family, which as you point out includes those carried out by other working royals as well as the king, so of course the costs are less.

If you like to think of these engagements as "junkets" fair enough, although they seem to be popular with the public. You may wish to replace the monarchy with a republic. but I think you'll find that in many republics the president's role includes similar junkets. I also think you'll find that the state pays for them. Republics also have state funerals and investitures. However I quite understand if you feel there are too many of these junkets and that they're unnecessary.

You say "it's a matter of principle". To me, the principle is that the state should pay for activities carried out on its behalf. However I'll leave it there, as you've clearly made your mind up.


31 Jul 23 - 10:09 AM (#4178137)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

The British monarch can't be arrested or be the subject of civil and criminal proceedings, meaning he is effectively exempt from the law. King Charles enjoys sovereign immunity, meaning he can't be prosecuted under a civil or criminal investigation.

HOWEVER I could sue Steve Shaw for defamation or pay to have 4,000 of his internet posts removed but since I use a fictional avatar it complicates matters.


31 Jul 23 - 10:24 AM (#4178139)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Everything you do seems fictional Don.


31 Jul 23 - 03:48 PM (#4178142)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

It’s frictional too, Dave - it certainly rubs some people the wrong way! ;-)


31 Jul 23 - 03:52 PM (#4178143)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

BG :-D


31 Jul 23 - 05:00 PM (#4178152)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Go ahead, Donuel! :-)


31 Jul 23 - 05:39 PM (#4178156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

As an internet ghost, you aren't worth a pense of legal fees.


01 Aug 23 - 03:51 AM (#4178179)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Ignoring American attempts to derail this thread, and back to UK Politics - Attila the Stockbroker on FarceBook this morning, finger right on the button as usual…

”The planet is burning and Sunak is issuing new oil and gas licences, ripping up commitments and sending a message to the world that the U.K. doesn’t give a monkey’s. He’s doing it because he thinks it will glean the Tories working class votes. And his excuse is that these new fields will use ‘carbon capture’ technology.

Now I may be wrong, but I seem to remember this phrase from the latter days of the miners’ campaign, when it was posited as a way of keeping pits open while minimising carbon emissions.

Back then of course it was dismissed out of hand, because closing pits and wrecking communities was a Tory ideological class war decision which had nothing to do with climate change concerns - the coal was simply imported from elsewhere.

If it had been implemented then there would have been less carbon in the atmosphere and fewer mining communities destroyed - but destroying mining communities was the Tories’ Thatcherite aim. Back then, they were ‘the enemy within’, and obliterating them was part of a strategy to cut off the head of the trade union movement and destroy organised labour once and for all.

But in this new era, when the right wing tabloids have, incredibly, managed to persuade some of those very same communities to switch sides by blaming ‘immigrants’ for the crimes committed by the Tories, feeding xenophobia and stoking division, re-opening oil and gas fields and granting new mining licences is seen as a strategy to win votes.

And, as before, the climate crisis doesn’t even enter the equation. It’s all just a cynical electioneering strategy.

Close down communities for ideological and electoral reasons, offer them false hope on the same basis. A cynical crime against the planet.”


01 Aug 23 - 04:58 AM (#4178182)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stanron

The planet isn't burning in Clayton Manchester UK. It's colder here than it has been for the last four weeks and five days. 14 degrees C as I write this. Perhaps it's a Guarniad typo and he meant to write " The Lefties are boring".


01 Aug 23 - 05:56 AM (#4178187)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Time was when people would complain of unduly cold weather, and I'd say "I blame global warming", meaning climate change shifting the weather patterns around. England's suffering a mild cold spell this week, while much of Europe, and the rest of the world, burns. Be careful what you wish for, Stanron.


01 Aug 23 - 06:36 AM (#4178191)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Backwoodsman:
If you're going to blockquote some external source could you at least give your opinions on the matter, not just state "finger right on the button"?

For example, do you agree with his comment "because closing pits and wrecking communities was a Tory ideological class war decision"? Are you aware, or is he aware, that more pits were closed under Wilson (Lab.) than under Thatcher (Con.) ?


01 Aug 23 - 06:51 AM (#4178193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

My memory of the time was that the pits were closing anyway .... but that Maggie Hatchett chose that hill for Arthur Scargill to die on, and he obliged her.


01 Aug 23 - 06:59 AM (#4178194)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

My opinion of the miners’ strike and its aftermath is that the miners were cannon-fodder in a war of opposing political ideologies conducted by two crackpots.


01 Aug 23 - 07:49 AM (#4178197)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

And “Finger right on the button” was my opinion, Nigel. No need to write ‘War and Peace’, that’s the speciality of others on the forum.

FWIW, the difference between pit-closures during Wilson’s tenure and those of the Thatcher years is the matter of intent and purpose - in the case of the Wilson closures, the intent was to make the coal industry operate more efficiently and thereby ensure its continuation, whereas Thatcher’s intent - as Attila pointed out correctly in his piece - was to break the trade-unions, emasculate worker-power, and destroy the industry. It was a vicious, politically-driven, ideological enterprise, and a major part of the Tory Class-war of that period.


01 Aug 23 - 07:52 AM (#4178198)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Apologies, pressed the ‘Go’ button before I added the disclaimer -

“As always, the standard disclaimer applies - IMHO, and YMMV.


13 Aug 23 - 07:52 PM (#4179126)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Anyone wanna buy a third-hand defunct barge, seats 500, or possibly none...? And has anyone seen Suella recently?


14 Aug 23 - 03:19 AM (#4179139)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

They should tow it up the Thames and moor it by the Palace of Westminster. Then it could be used to house MPs, and save the taxpayer a fortune by removing the opportunity for those ‘second-home’ flip-flop scams they seem to love so much.


14 Aug 23 - 08:01 AM (#4179153)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

"Anyone wanna buy a third-hand defunct barge, seats 500, or possibly none...?"

I was not aware that the owners were looking to sell.


14 Aug 23 - 08:53 AM (#4179155)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

If they find anything else wrong with it, it'll be scrap value only. By the way, even if it fills right up it will hold just 1% of asylum seekers. Anyone got another 99 going spare?


14 Aug 23 - 09:14 AM (#4179156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

Scrap value only? Your best joke yet.

Once they have cleared up the Legionella bacteria problem I am sure that there will still be a use for it somewhere.


14 Aug 23 - 09:51 AM (#4179160)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I think Cruella is looking to buy it and make a quick profit. Probably sell it to Rwanda...


14 Aug 23 - 10:01 AM (#4179161)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk


Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.
                                 -- H. L. Mencken

The purpose of the barge is not to house asylum seekers: it's to provide headline fodder about a moral panic they stirred up in the first place.

.... Hm: It's been reported that the political "silly season" went away. *bzzt* Wrong: it's silly season the year round.


27 Sep 23 - 11:03 AM (#4182557)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well still no planes full of refugees to Rwanda and still no asylum seekers on the barge. So Cruella goes to the US, gives a speech to a right-wing think-tank in which she disses the 70-year-old UN refugee convention and does a nice bit of dog-whistling to her disreputable fellow-travellers about women and gay people seeking refuge too lightly. Cruella for PM! (which is clearly what she's after).

Now Fishi Rishi has sanctioned drilling for oil in Rosebank, the biggest undeveloped oilfield in the North Sea - and stodgy Starmer has said he won't revoke the licence when he gets in. A disastrous Sunak decision, coming on top of his rowing back of other environmental policies last week, and one which Starmer could have stopped in its tracks. In the words of Corporal Fraser, we're all doomed...


27 Sep 23 - 11:03 AM (#4189500)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well still no planes full of refugees to Rwanda and still no asylum seekers on the barge. So Cruella goes to the US, gives a speech to a right-wing think-tank in which she disses the 70-year-old UN refugee convention and does a nice bit of dog-whistling to her disreputable fellow-travellers about women and gay people seeking refuge too lightly. Cruella for PM! (which is clearly what she's after).

Now Fishi Rishi has sanctioned drilling for oil in Rosebank, the biggest undeveloped oilfield in the North Sea - and stodgy Starmer has said he won't revoke the licence when he gets in. A disastrous Sunak decision, coming on top of his rowing back of other environmental policies last week, and one which Starmer could have stopped in its tracks. In the words of Corporal Fraser, we're all doomed...


30 Sep 23 - 08:30 AM (#4182742)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Short quote from this week's New European, from Tanit Koch's "Germanspaining" column:

With the far-right AfD polling well above 20%, the public discourse has changed drastically. So former Bundenpräsident Joachim Gauck took the lead. He doesn't want to leave it to the extremists, who never solve problems because they live off them.

.... I've never heard the problem with extremists stated so concisely before.


30 Sep 23 - 08:30 AM (#4189512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Short quote from this week's New European, from Tanit Koch's "Germanspaining" column:

With the far-right AfD polling well above 20%, the public discourse has changed drastically. So former Bundenpräsident Joachim Gauck took the lead. He doesn't want to leave it to the extremists, who never solve problems because they live off them.

.... I've never heard the problem with extremists stated so concisely before.


02 Oct 23 - 02:24 AM (#4189486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

So how do we translate that to UK politics? The far right groups we had here never had serious high poll ratings but they frightened the mainstream parties enough to move them further right than they have been in my voting lifetime. We now have a Labour Party that are vaguely pink, Liberals that align themselves with Tories and Tories that want to implement NF policies. How can we hope to recentre things?


02 Oct 23 - 02:24 AM (#4182856)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

So how do we translate that to UK politics? The far right groups we had here never had serious high poll ratings but they frightened the mainstream parties enough to move them further right than they have been in my voting lifetime. We now have a Labour Party that are vaguely pink, Liberals that align themselves with Tories and Tories that want to implement NF policies. How can we hope to recentre things?


02 Oct 23 - 06:42 AM (#4182865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Populism is alive and well at the Tory conference, judging by Coutinho’s and Harper’s speeches - in particular, lots of Labour-slagging and Harper declaring the Conservative Party to be ‘The pro-car Party’.


02 Oct 23 - 06:42 AM (#4189496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Populism is alive and well at the Tory conference, judging by Coutinho’s and Harper’s speeches - in particular, lots of Labour-slagging and Harper declaring the Conservative Party to be ‘The pro-car Party’.


02 Oct 23 - 07:25 AM (#4189511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

DtG the problem has been that for the last 13 years there has been a movement of the centre ground of politics increasingly to the right. We would all love to have radical socialist policies in place, but what was eft of centre 13 years ago are far left to where the political centre is now.

Labour cannot regain power until it has reclaimed the centre-ground, and then, and only then, it can start to move the pendulum back towards the left.


02 Oct 23 - 07:25 AM (#4182868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

DtG the problem has been that for the last 13 years there has been a movement of the centre ground of politics increasingly to the right. We would all love to have radical socialist policies in place, but what was eft of centre 13 years ago are far left to where the political centre is now.

Labour cannot regain power until it has reclaimed the centre-ground, and then, and only then, it can start to move the pendulum back towards the left.


02 Oct 23 - 07:40 AM (#4182869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

100!


02 Oct 23 - 07:40 AM (#4189487)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

100!


02 Oct 23 - 07:45 AM (#4189497)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Bugger! ;-)


02 Oct 23 - 07:45 AM (#4182871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Bugger! ;-)


02 Oct 23 - 09:36 AM (#4182873)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Labour can't "regain power." The Tories will lose power and Labour will carry on with all the current Tory policies. Labour's motto seems to be "drop a pledge a week." Starmer is what we used to call the despicable LibDems, i.e., Tory-lite. In his case, very lite-weight, no courage, no charisma, no vision, no principles.

Saw a great slogan last night, can't remember where now, might have been in the comments section below the Spurs-Liverpool match (aka fiasco) report. It said (and pardon my French) "Fuck VAR and the Tories."


02 Oct 23 - 09:36 AM (#4189501)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Labour can't "regain power." The Tories will lose power and Labour will carry on with all the current Tory policies. Labour's motto seems to be "drop a pledge a week." Starmer is what we used to call the despicable LibDems, i.e., Tory-lite. In his case, very lite-weight, no courage, no charisma, no vision, no principles.

Saw a great slogan last night, can't remember where now, might have been in the comments section below the Spurs-Liverpool match (aka fiasco) report. It said (and pardon my French) "Fuck VAR and the Tories."


03 Oct 23 - 06:37 AM (#4182931)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

HS2 - I wonder what the government are using it to distract us from? The vast majority of UK citizens will never travel on it and won’t be affected by it no matter where it runs to.
Birmingham? Manchester? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn (and I’d stake my pension that most UK residents don’t either)!


03 Oct 23 - 06:37 AM (#4189498)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

HS2 - I wonder what the government are using it to distract us from? The vast majority of UK citizens will never travel on it and won’t be affected by it no matter where it runs to.
Birmingham? Manchester? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn (and I’d stake my pension that most UK residents don’t either)!


04 Oct 23 - 09:04 AM (#4183020)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence. And the Tories have overseen a cynical industry grooming kids to go vape-crazy. Never mind. All that saved HS2 money ("every penny of it") will be used to improve little bits of railways all over the place instead. Yeah, right, along with those 40 new hospitals.

If HS2 had gone ahead, Labour would have carried on with it. Now that it's gone, Labour won't carry on with it. Be prepared for a massive Tory defeat, then nothing changes, then Cruella for PM in five years' time. Weeee!


04 Oct 23 - 09:04 AM (#4189502)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence. And the Tories have overseen a cynical industry grooming kids to go vape-crazy. Never mind. All that saved HS2 money ("every penny of it") will be used to improve little bits of railways all over the place instead. Yeah, right, along with those 40 new hospitals.

If HS2 had gone ahead, Labour would have carried on with it. Now that it's gone, Labour won't carry on with it. Be prepared for a massive Tory defeat, then nothing changes, then Cruella for PM in five years' time. Weeee!


04 Oct 23 - 09:26 AM (#4183021)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve: If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence.
I'm guessing the 'caveat' you mean is that word 'legally'.

I'd rather spot the inaccuracy. If you're 14 now, but haven't yet had a birthday this year you were born before 1 Jan 2009, so can continue to buy cigarettes (once you're 18). The new law doesn't catch you.


04 Oct 23 - 09:26 AM (#4189495)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve: If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence.
I'm guessing the 'caveat' you mean is that word 'legally'.

I'd rather spot the inaccuracy. If you're 14 now, but haven't yet had a birthday this year you were born before 1 Jan 2009, so can continue to buy cigarettes (once you're 18). The new law doesn't catch you.


04 Oct 23 - 10:25 AM (#4183023)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

That indeed was it, Nigel. Underage kids have never had real issues getting their hands on fags or booze. I did both with gay abandon in my misspent yoof. I bought my first pint in a pub at 16 and I was wearing my full school uniform! It cost me 1s 11d by the way. In those days you could get 20 Players No 10 for half a crown. We'd buy a Watney's Party Four, take it down the park and bust the can open with a screwdriver. It was bloody 'orrible, flat as a witch's t*t.   Pour it straight down the lav and cut out the middle man...

The Tory cigarette thing and the ban-phones-in-schools thing are "good things" but they are deliberate petty sideshows. Typical Tory conference bullshit. I'm sure we'll see the same next week.


04 Oct 23 - 10:25 AM (#4189503)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

That indeed was it, Nigel. Underage kids have never had real issues getting their hands on fags or booze. I did both with gay abandon in my misspent yoof. I bought my first pint in a pub at 16 and I was wearing my full school uniform! It cost me 1s 11d by the way. In those days you could get 20 Players No 10 for half a crown. We'd buy a Watney's Party Four, take it down the park and bust the can open with a screwdriver. It was bloody 'orrible, flat as a witch's t*t.   Pour it straight down the lav and cut out the middle man...

The Tory cigarette thing and the ban-phones-in-schools thing are "good things" but they are deliberate petty sideshows. Typical Tory conference bullshit. I'm sure we'll see the same next week.


05 Oct 23 - 04:10 AM (#4189488)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

This one tickles me. Just shows how out of touch they are with the North

Tories promise Manchester a tram extension that already exists!

My son #1, daughter in law #2 and grandson #2 were there protesting on Sunday. Proud of them all! :-)


05 Oct 23 - 04:10 AM (#4183049)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

This one tickles me. Just shows how out of touch they are with the North

Tories promise Manchester a tram extension that already exists!

My son #1, daughter in law #2 and grandson #2 were there protesting on Sunday. Proud of them all! :-)


05 Oct 23 - 12:35 PM (#4183077)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

If you are raiaing the legal age to buy cigarettes one year per year then in say 15 years you will need to be challenging people to prove they are 30 and not 29.

I don't see how you are going to do that without some form of national ID system.


05 Oct 23 - 12:35 PM (#4189491)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

If you are raiaing the legal age to buy cigarettes one year per year then in say 15 years you will need to be challenging people to prove they are 30 and not 29.

I don't see how you are going to do that without some form of national ID system.


05 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM (#4183079)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Mrs. Backwoodsperson and I had exactly that conversation, and we both wondered if it’s the first step towards ID Cards?


05 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM (#4189499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Mrs. Backwoodsperson and I had exactly that conversation, and we both wondered if it’s the first step towards ID Cards?


05 Oct 23 - 03:44 PM (#4189485)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Captain Swing

I remember going on two school visits aged 15 in 5th yr (Y11 in today's money). One was to the Lincolnshire Show and the other was to see a production of Hamlet. We managed to get served with pints of brown ale on both occasions.


05 Oct 23 - 03:44 PM (#4183080)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Captain Swing

I remember going on two school visits aged 15 in 5th yr (Y11 in today's money). One was to the Lincolnshire Show and the other was to see a production of Hamlet. We managed to get served with pints of brown ale on both occasions.


06 Oct 23 - 06:16 PM (#4183156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

This SNP/Labour thang. Good win, very impressive, etc. But...

Is this a classic case of incumbents losing and challengers indulging in hubris?

Tories: imploded for years, laughing stock, etc: lose their deposit.

SNP: scandal over MP that had held the seat, broke covid law big-time, etc. Finance scandal over Nicola Sturgeon. No progress regarding independence push. Low turnout. Etc.

Pundits are saying that this means Labour could get 40 Scottish seats. My arse. Not a chance. This was a by-election, a low-turnout protest vote. Blew the doors off, eh? More like found the wrong car key and had to go back in the house to look for the right one.

Never a truer word was spoken: governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them. There's a lot of work to do. I'm still a Labour Party member, by the way. And there's a whole bunch of antisemitism inconvenience coming up that will hardly make the party top-dogs look good...


06 Oct 23 - 06:16 PM (#4189504)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

This SNP/Labour thang. Good win, very impressive, etc. But...

Is this a classic case of incumbents losing and challengers indulging in hubris?

Tories: imploded for years, laughing stock, etc: lose their deposit.

SNP: scandal over MP that had held the seat, broke covid law big-time, etc. Finance scandal over Nicola Sturgeon. No progress regarding independence push. Low turnout. Etc.

Pundits are saying that this means Labour could get 40 Scottish seats. My arse. Not a chance. This was a by-election, a low-turnout protest vote. Blew the doors off, eh? More like found the wrong car key and had to go back in the house to look for the right one.

Never a truer word was spoken: governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them. There's a lot of work to do. I'm still a Labour Party member, by the way. And there's a whole bunch of antisemitism inconvenience coming up that will hardly make the party top-dogs look good...


07 Oct 23 - 02:13 PM (#4189492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

The is a ry irritating form of punditry about. The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that assumption.

What I would say is the result is morale-boosting for Labour and morale-sapping for the SNP. I don't think I would go much further.


07 Oct 23 - 02:13 PM (#4183201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

The is a ry irritating form of punditry about. The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that assumption.

What I would say is the result is morale-boosting for Labour and morale-sapping for the SNP. I don't think I would go much further.


07 Oct 23 - 02:23 PM (#4183204)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Agreed.


07 Oct 23 - 02:23 PM (#4189505)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Agreed.


09 Oct 23 - 01:23 PM (#4189493)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Something a bit intriguing happening. I can post messages to mudcat from my phone, but not from my PC. Obviously something antiviral is blocking me...

Ehat I was going to say is the Labour Policy document makes interesting reading as far as setting the direction is concerned.


09 Oct 23 - 01:23 PM (#4183299)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Something a bit intriguing happening. I can post messages to mudcat from my phone, but not from my PC. Obviously something antiviral is blocking me...

Ehat I was going to say is the Labour Policy document makes interesting reading as far as setting the direction is concerned.


16 Oct 23 - 10:10 AM (#4183788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: peteglasgow

i was a corbyn supporter but it was horrible canvassing for him in the last election in workington. i voted for starmer as leader - same policies (up the '19 manifesto!) plus electability. i've left the party (again - 3rd time. or maybe 4th) i;m now reduced to longing to see tory tears on election night and a hope for some decent policies. looks like we won't have a strong snp government as an inspiration either .all depressing


16 Oct 23 - 10:10 AM (#4189510)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: peteglasgow

i was a corbyn supporter but it was horrible canvassing for him in the last election in workington. i voted for starmer as leader - same policies (up the '19 manifesto!) plus electability. i've left the party (again - 3rd time. or maybe 4th) i;m now reduced to longing to see tory tears on election night and a hope for some decent policies. looks like we won't have a strong snp government as an inspiration either .all depressing


16 Oct 23 - 08:12 PM (#4183810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

We have a prime minister and a leader of the opposition who are both one hundred percent blinkered about the Israel/Hamas conflict. I have heard barely a single word of sympathy for the wretched and desperate people of Gaza from either of them. It's all the fault of Hamas, Israel has the right to defend itself, blah blah. It's not Hamas that has cut off water, food and fuel to the outdoor prison which is Gaza. It's not Hamas that has bombed hospitals and schools. It's not Hamas that has killed many hundreds of children and it's not Hamas that has created a million refugees. You don't need to do any of those things to unarmed civilians in order to "defend yourself." Sunak and Starmer are in the pockets of the pro-Israel lobby and they are frightened to death of saying anything that sounds even remotely like a glimmer of criticism of the Israeli regime. Starmer wouldn't even say that it's OK to sport a Palestinian flag in the street, a straight lift from the Suella Braverman near-fascist creed. That was in Starmer's interview with Nick Ferrari on LBC and I could hardly believe the pusillanimous self-deception I was hearing from the bloke who's probably going to be the next PM. Pathetic and totally unfair.


16 Oct 23 - 08:12 PM (#4189506)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

We have a prime minister and a leader of the opposition who are both one hundred percent blinkered about the Israel/Hamas conflict. I have heard barely a single word of sympathy for the wretched and desperate people of Gaza from either of them. It's all the fault of Hamas, Israel has the right to defend itself, blah blah. It's not Hamas that has cut off water, food and fuel to the outdoor prison which is Gaza. It's not Hamas that has bombed hospitals and schools. It's not Hamas that has killed many hundreds of children and it's not Hamas that has created a million refugees. You don't need to do any of those things to unarmed civilians in order to "defend yourself." Sunak and Starmer are in the pockets of the pro-Israel lobby and they are frightened to death of saying anything that sounds even remotely like a glimmer of criticism of the Israeli regime. Starmer wouldn't even say that it's OK to sport a Palestinian flag in the street, a straight lift from the Suella Braverman near-fascist creed. That was in Starmer's interview with Nick Ferrari on LBC and I could hardly believe the pusillanimous self-deception I was hearing from the bloke who's probably going to be the next PM. Pathetic and totally unfair.


18 Oct 23 - 08:50 AM (#4189507)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Starmer's pusillanimous and unconditional support for Israel and his apparent lack of sympathy or at least his silence, for the plight of millions in Gaza is too much for me. The failure of western leaders to condemn and sanction the Israeli regime will give Netanyahu succour and they will be complicit in the future slaughter of civilians in Gaza. It's the last straw and I'm leaving the Labour Party.


18 Oct 23 - 08:50 AM (#4183906)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Starmer's pusillanimous and unconditional support for Israel and his apparent lack of sympathy or at least his silence, for the plight of millions in Gaza is too much for me. The failure of western leaders to condemn and sanction the Israeli regime will give Netanyahu succour and they will be complicit in the future slaughter of civilians in Gaza. It's the last straw and I'm leaving the Labour Party.


18 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM (#4183912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

You're not leaving Labour Steve. I am not sure what it is but it sure ain't the party we joined!


18 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM (#4189489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

You're not leaving Labour Steve. I am not sure what it is but it sure ain't the party we joined!


18 Oct 23 - 11:08 AM (#4189494)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Starmer's letter to the councillors who have or are thinking of resigning over this


18 Oct 23 - 11:08 AM (#4183915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Starmer's letter to the councillors who have or are thinking of resigning over this


18 Oct 23 - 12:00 PM (#4183920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't manage to read all that as it wouldn't format for me, but I got the drift. Again, the platitudes flow freely but there is no condemnation of the horrors inflicted by Israel, just that by Hamas. Inexcusable.


18 Oct 23 - 12:00 PM (#4189508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't manage to read all that as it wouldn't format for me, but I got the drift. Again, the platitudes flow freely but there is no condemnation of the horrors inflicted by Israel, just that by Hamas. Inexcusable.


20 Oct 23 - 05:08 PM (#4189490)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

In Sir Keith's own words, Steve. Talking about the by-election

"I know there are people who probably voted Tory in the past who vote for a changed Labour Party this time because they despair at the state of their own party"

Code for the Labour Party has become the Party that pissed off tories vote for :-( You are better off out of it.


20 Oct 23 - 05:08 PM (#4184130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

In Sir Keith's own words, Steve. Talking about the by-election

"I know there are people who probably voted Tory in the past who vote for a changed Labour Party this time because they despair at the state of their own party"

Code for the Labour Party has become the Party that pissed off tories vote for :-( You are better off out of it.


20 Oct 23 - 05:19 PM (#4184134)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

He wouldn't let his ministers stand on health workers' picket lines, he told them that they mustn't join pro-Palestine demonstrations, he refused to back the nurses' and junior doctors' fight for fair pay. Now he refuses to criticise even the most egregious of Israel's outrages and he says they have every right to deny food and water to two million civilians, a war crime. That's not Labour and it's definitely not me. I've held my nose over several other of his swerves to the right, but I've had enough now.


20 Oct 23 - 05:19 PM (#4189509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

He wouldn't let his ministers stand on health workers' picket lines, he told them that they mustn't join pro-Palestine demonstrations, he refused to back the nurses' and junior doctors' fight for fair pay. Now he refuses to criticise even the most egregious of Israel's outrages and he says they have every right to deny food and water to two million civilians, a war crime. That's not Labour and it's definitely not me. I've held my nose over several other of his swerves to the right, but I've had enough now.


25 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM (#4184460)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by
> election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that
> assumption.

That's straight out of the "I'm not an unreasonable person but" book.* I heard many years ago that the trick is to read up to the "but", and take the inverse of what goes before it as the speaker's POV; the rest of the statement can then optionally be disregarded as too obvious to need to be stated.

* It's a standard rhetorical technique. Fifty bonus points for correctly naming it.


25 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM (#4191942)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by
> election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that
> assumption.

That's straight out of the "I'm not an unreasonable person but" book.* I heard many years ago that the trick is to read up to the "but", and take the inverse of what goes before it as the speaker's POV; the rest of the statement can then optionally be disregarded as too obvious to need to be stated.

* It's a standard rhetorical technique. Fifty bonus points for correctly naming it.


29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM (#4184716)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian:

"If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself.

You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader."

I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country.


29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM (#4191916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian:

"If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself.

You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader."

I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country.


29 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM (#4184737)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I see that Bozzer has joined GB news

Need I say more?


29 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM (#4191884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I see that Bozzer has joined GB news

Need I say more?


30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM (#4184784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist?


30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM (#4191917)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist?


31 Oct 23 - 07:58 AM (#4184854)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

With the Covid enquiry well on the way, and the admission from political advisors that the government was so ill prepared, the least the pandemic could have done is waited until we had a competent government.


31 Oct 23 - 07:58 AM (#4191939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

With the Covid enquiry well on the way, and the admission from political advisors that the government was so ill prepared, the least the pandemic could have done is waited until we had a competent government.


31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM (#4184871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then...

The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby.

Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night.


31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM (#4191918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then...

The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby.

Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night.


31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM (#4191919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here.


31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM (#4184919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here.


04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM (#4185241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank."

Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks.


04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM (#4191920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank."

Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks.


05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM (#4191914)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all…

”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately

LIFESTYLE CHOICE

I could have escaped to the country
I could have lived by the sea
I could have chosen anywhere
But this is the place for me
Handy for all amenities
In that I can rejoice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Yes to the freezing nights
Yes to the driving rain
And if I had to choose once more
I’d choose the same again
Yes to constant hunger
Cold and always moist
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

I love my cardboard notice
Asking for your charity
I love the fact I can rely
On other people’s sympathy
These things you don’t understand
While stuck in your Rolls Royce
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

This is not a style of life
That I would recommend
To my worst enemy
Never mind a friend
But you hear what you want to hear
You cannot hear my voice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Your ignorance – deliberate
Like the heartless views you voiced
Indicative of where you are
And your lifestyle choice

Poem 1195
Sunday 5th November 2023”


05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM (#4185261)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all…

”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately

LIFESTYLE CHOICE

I could have escaped to the country
I could have lived by the sea
I could have chosen anywhere
But this is the place for me
Handy for all amenities
In that I can rejoice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Yes to the freezing nights
Yes to the driving rain
And if I had to choose once more
I’d choose the same again
Yes to constant hunger
Cold and always moist
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

I love my cardboard notice
Asking for your charity
I love the fact I can rely
On other people’s sympathy
These things you don’t understand
While stuck in your Rolls Royce
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

This is not a style of life
That I would recommend
To my worst enemy
Never mind a friend
But you hear what you want to hear
You cannot hear my voice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Your ignorance – deliberate
Like the heartless views you voiced
Indicative of where you are
And your lifestyle choice

Poem 1195
Sunday 5th November 2023”


05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM (#4185263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament.


05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM (#4191921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament.


05 Nov 23 - 08:36 AM (#4185272)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

Noticed that that piece of toxic proverbial had provided more proof the ALL tories and their supporters are racists, why else would it spout on about homeless people being mostly foreigners. did it personally check all their passports?

What is the betting that the tory **** are too tight fisted to buy homes out of their own pockets to give homeless people a place to live rent free until they get back on their feet, and then pay an affordable rent.

Where are the high streets with the rows and rows of tents? I haven't seen any, or is it referring to camp sites? Maybe it believes that homeless people should report for just be wiped of the face of the earth so that it doesn't have to look at the problem its party and the pathetic excuse for human skin that votes for it have created just because it lowers the value of their properties.

There is no room for neo-n****m in my society, so as far as I am concern, every tory voter should be deported to some tin pot, extreme right dictatorship with appalling human rights where they can live happily amongst their own kind, and we can get back to being a decent, caring welcoming society.


05 Nov 23 - 08:36 AM (#4191940)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

Noticed that that piece of toxic proverbial had provided more proof the ALL tories and their supporters are racists, why else would it spout on about homeless people being mostly foreigners. did it personally check all their passports?

What is the betting that the tory **** are too tight fisted to buy homes out of their own pockets to give homeless people a place to live rent free until they get back on their feet, and then pay an affordable rent.

Where are the high streets with the rows and rows of tents? I haven't seen any, or is it referring to camp sites? Maybe it believes that homeless people should report for just be wiped of the face of the earth so that it doesn't have to look at the problem its party and the pathetic excuse for human skin that votes for it have created just because it lowers the value of their properties.

There is no room for neo-n****m in my society, so as far as I am concern, every tory voter should be deported to some tin pot, extreme right dictatorship with appalling human rights where they can live happily amongst their own kind, and we can get back to being a decent, caring welcoming society.


05 Nov 23 - 08:37 AM (#4191941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

I really should have just said what I really thought, rather than holding back just now


05 Nov 23 - 08:37 AM (#4185273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

I really should have just said what I really thought, rather than holding back just now


05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM (#4185298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

DIves and Lazarus
“Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door,
No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”


Some things don't change much.


05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM (#4191903)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

DIves and Lazarus
“Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door,
No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”


Some things don't change much.


05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM (#4191910)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

"The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie,"

The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views.


05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM (#4185333)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

"The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie,"

The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views.


05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM (#4185338)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Try having a read of it, Nige.


05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM (#4191922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Try having a read of it, Nige.


06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM (#4191923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-(


06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM (#4185356)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-(


07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM (#4191911)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so.


07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM (#4185465)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so.


07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM (#4185466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.


07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM (#4191924)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.


07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM (#4185484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.


07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM (#4191904)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.


07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM (#4191905)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.


07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM (#4185485)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.


07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM (#4185506)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.


07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM (#4191925)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.


10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM (#4191943)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate

Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending

The rushes by the river
We gather ev'ry day

.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns.

NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment.


10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM (#4185649)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate

Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending

The rushes by the river
We gather ev'ry day

.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns.

NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment.


11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM (#4185699)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.


11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM (#4191906)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.


11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM (#4185715)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic

Steve: Back to your lane.


11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM (#4191894)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic

Steve: Back to your lane.


11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM (#4185720)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.


11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM (#4191926)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.


11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM (#4185721)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!


11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM (#4191885)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!


12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM (#4185758)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.


12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM (#4191927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.


12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM (#4185781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S


12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM (#4191886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S


12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM (#4185783)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.


From: Here


12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM (#4191912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.


From: Here


12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM (#4191928)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Thanks for that, Nigel.


12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM (#4185788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Thanks for that, Nigel.


12 Nov 23 - 03:37 PM (#4185791)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Nice to know that the land of my Fathers (Well, Mother's Mother) hasn't succumbed to the downward slide!


12 Nov 23 - 03:37 PM (#4191887)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Nice to know that the land of my Fathers (Well, Mother's Mother) hasn't succumbed to the downward slide!


12 Nov 23 - 05:10 PM (#4191888)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I see that Cruella has praised the police for "their professionalism in the face of violence and aggression from protesters and counter-protesters".

She really is a piece of work isn't she. There are no words strong enough to describe the disdain I have for the shower of shits that are supposed to be running the country. How anyone can continue to support them is beyond me.


12 Nov 23 - 05:10 PM (#4185794)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I see that Cruella has praised the police for "their professionalism in the face of violence and aggression from protesters and counter-protesters".

She really is a piece of work isn't she. There are no words strong enough to describe the disdain I have for the shower of shits that are supposed to be running the country. How anyone can continue to support them is beyond me.


12 Nov 23 - 07:29 PM (#4185795)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

It's the fake equivalence between 'protesters and counter-protesters" that gets me.


12 Nov 23 - 07:29 PM (#4191929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

It's the fake equivalence between 'protesters and counter-protesters" that gets me.


13 Nov 23 - 02:44 AM (#4185809)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Exactly. And now praising the police because she realised that slagging them off was a bad career move.


13 Nov 23 - 02:44 AM (#4191889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Exactly. And now praising the police because she realised that slagging them off was a bad career move.


13 Nov 23 - 04:16 AM (#4191890)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Ding dong the witch is dead... :-)

Mind you, we cannot celebrate yet as we don't yet know who will replace her. Cameron, the man who screwed up over Brexit, has been seen entering number 10!


13 Nov 23 - 04:16 AM (#4185812)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Ding dong the witch is dead... :-)

Mind you, we cannot celebrate yet as we don't yet know who will replace her. Cameron, the man who screwed up over Brexit, has been seen entering number 10!


13 Nov 23 - 04:18 AM (#4185813)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Source BBC news BTW.


13 Nov 23 - 04:18 AM (#4191891)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Source BBC news BTW.


13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM (#4185816)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks.


13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM (#4191915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks.


13 Nov 23 - 06:31 AM (#4191930)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Cameron, a man who should never have been allowed anywhere near Downing Street ever again, fer chrissake...

Put him in that big barge all on his own and float the bloody thing off to Rwanda. Anyone got a spare ball and chain?

Anyone contemplating that he could well be the next Tory leader? :-)


13 Nov 23 - 06:31 AM (#4185818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Cameron, a man who should never have been allowed anywhere near Downing Street ever again, fer chrissake...

Put him in that big barge all on his own and float the bloody thing off to Rwanda. Anyone got a spare ball and chain?

Anyone contemplating that he could well be the next Tory leader? :-)


13 Nov 23 - 06:44 AM (#4185819)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Cameron is back in Government. It bodes ill for conservatives in the future.


13 Nov 23 - 06:44 AM (#4191895)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Cameron is back in Government. It bodes ill for conservatives in the future.


13 Nov 23 - 07:03 AM (#4185822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

How would you know?


13 Nov 23 - 07:03 AM (#4191931)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

How would you know?


13 Nov 23 - 09:30 AM (#4185830)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Cameron's post is minor but it reflects poorly to his opponents.
Perhaps your conservatives are smarter than ours but I doubt it.
What you call the wrong side of the Atlantic, over here the conservatives went too far and have splintered their base.


13 Nov 23 - 09:30 AM (#4191896)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Cameron's post is minor but it reflects poorly to his opponents.
Perhaps your conservatives are smarter than ours but I doubt it.
What you call the wrong side of the Atlantic, over here the conservatives went too far and have splintered their base.


13 Nov 23 - 09:45 AM (#4191892)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Conservative with a big C is different to conservative with a little c Don.


13 Nov 23 - 09:45 AM (#4185831)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Conservative with a big C is different to conservative with a little c Don.


13 Nov 23 - 10:01 AM (#4185835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

I reckon ah jus reflects the opinion of MSNBC. Jus sayin.


13 Nov 23 - 10:01 AM (#4191897)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

I reckon ah jus reflects the opinion of MSNBC. Jus sayin.


13 Nov 23 - 10:08 AM (#4191898)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Over here we have a big D and a little d.


13 Nov 23 - 10:08 AM (#4185836)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Over here we have a big D and a little d.


13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM (#4185838)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick

Cameron's post is minor

The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State.
DC


13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM (#4191909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick

Cameron's post is minor

The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State.
DC


13 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM (#4185841)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Thanks, I thought the Prime Minister was the only 'big boss'.


13 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM (#4191899)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Thanks, I thought the Prime Minister was the only 'big boss'.


13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM (#4185844)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President.


13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM (#4191913)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President.


13 Nov 23 - 11:27 AM (#4191944)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

This has been brewing for nearly a week: it seems it was the "tents" issue that pushed Rishi over the top, not Cruella being, erm, economical with the diplomacy about the marches (which just added the cherry). I await the front-page picture on this week's New European with interest, but it should feature Cruella's head poking out of a tent on the doorstep of Number Ten.

For the record, at the time of typoing:

* Cruella -> back benches
* Cleverley -> Home Office
* the boy Cameron -> Foreign Office
* Theresa Coffey (sp?) -> back benches*
..... and more to follow.

* Despite paying her respects to Larry the Cat on the way in.


13 Nov 23 - 11:27 AM (#4185847)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

This has been brewing for nearly a week: it seems it was the "tents" issue that pushed Rishi over the top, not Cruella being, erm, economical with the diplomacy about the marches (which just added the cherry). I await the front-page picture on this week's New European with interest, but it should feature Cruella's head poking out of a tent on the doorstep of Number Ten.

For the record, at the time of typoing:

* Cruella -> back benches
* Cleverley -> Home Office
* the boy Cameron -> Foreign Office
* Theresa Coffey (sp?) -> back benches*
..... and more to follow.

* Despite paying her respects to Larry the Cat on the way in.


13 Nov 23 - 07:02 PM (#4185866)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

We have what is now called an Imperial President.
"Beware the demon pomposity".
Bob Woodward.


13 Nov 23 - 07:02 PM (#4191900)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

We have what is now called an Imperial President.
"Beware the demon pomposity".
Bob Woodward.


14 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM (#4185869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

We are allowed just one UK political thread. Keep your politics out of it, please.

I hate Cameron. Hubris led to brexit, a terrible misjudgement. The architect of austerity ("we're all in it together"). Very dodgy lobbying. NHS starting to implode on his watch. Hardly any growth. Explosion of zero-hours contracts. Shat on the public sector via pay freeze after pay freeze. He did one excellent thing: he completely nobbled that shabby bunch of naive opportunists, the Lib Dems.

However, he's a big hitter. He scrubs up well. He's not far right. From a Tory point of view, this isn't at all a bad move. Stodgy Starmer beware. And, after her showing on the Today programme this morning, for God's sake keep Rachel Reeves out of the spotlight. Could do worse than shutting Yvette up while he's at it.


14 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM (#4191932)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

We are allowed just one UK political thread. Keep your politics out of it, please.

I hate Cameron. Hubris led to brexit, a terrible misjudgement. The architect of austerity ("we're all in it together"). Very dodgy lobbying. NHS starting to implode on his watch. Hardly any growth. Explosion of zero-hours contracts. Shat on the public sector via pay freeze after pay freeze. He did one excellent thing: he completely nobbled that shabby bunch of naive opportunists, the Lib Dems.

However, he's a big hitter. He scrubs up well. He's not far right. From a Tory point of view, this isn't at all a bad move. Stodgy Starmer beware. And, after her showing on the Today programme this morning, for God's sake keep Rachel Reeves out of the spotlight. Could do worse than shutting Yvette up while he's at it.


14 Nov 23 - 09:09 AM (#4191933)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

It's Thérèse f'Coffey, Filk.


14 Nov 23 - 09:09 AM (#4185872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

It's Thérèse f'Coffey, Filk.


15 Nov 23 - 09:41 AM (#4185885)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I poste dthis yesterday but it seems to have been lost in the latest cat litter cleanup. Apologies if it does appear twice

Cruella is now telling Fishy that his policies are not working

Funny. I'm sure she supported them until she was binned. Why on earth would she support something that she knew was not working? Not a career move surely ;-)


15 Nov 23 - 09:41 AM (#4191893)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I poste dthis yesterday but it seems to have been lost in the latest cat litter cleanup. Apologies if it does appear twice

Cruella is now telling Fishy that his policies are not working

Funny. I'm sure she supported them until she was binned. Why on earth would she support something that she knew was not working? Not a career move surely ;-)


15 Nov 23 - 09:52 AM (#4185886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I watched the whole of the Supreme Court ruling this morning. What struck me was the fact that Rwanda's blatant failings to abide by previous agreed understandings on how asylum seekers should be treated, particularly with Israel, as well as a mass of solid evidence on this from the UN refugee agency, seem to have been ignored by this government. They were pursuing a doomed policy that has already cost taxpayers many millions of pounds. I feel like suing them to get my bloody money back.


15 Nov 23 - 09:52 AM (#4191934)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I watched the whole of the Supreme Court ruling this morning. What struck me was the fact that Rwanda's blatant failings to abide by previous agreed understandings on how asylum seekers should be treated, particularly with Israel, as well as a mass of solid evidence on this from the UN refugee agency, seem to have been ignored by this government. They were pursuing a doomed policy that has already cost taxpayers many millions of pounds. I feel like suing them to get my bloody money back.


15 Nov 23 - 10:14 AM (#4191945)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Herself's comment this morning: "That's typical of the Tories: no Plan B."

My response: "Plan B is Plan A, shouted louder."


15 Nov 23 - 10:14 AM (#4185887)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Herself's comment this morning: "That's typical of the Tories: no Plan B."

My response: "Plan B is Plan A, shouted louder."


15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM (#4185891)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:

So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so.

Very Humpty Dumpty.


15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM (#4191907)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:

So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so.

Very Humpty Dumpty.


15 Nov 23 - 03:32 PM (#4185896)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different.


15 Nov 23 - 03:32 PM (#4191901)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different.


15 Nov 23 - 05:04 PM (#4185907)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Passing a law stating that Rwanda is safe forcibly reminds me of the Indiana Pi Bill. I commend the Wikipedia page to you, but can't resist:

.... the Speaker accepted another member's recommendation to refer the bill to the Committee on Swamplands, where the bill could "find a deserved grave"

Happily, a real mathematician was in the building on other business, he educated members of the Indiana Senate, the bill was duly blocked, and the newspapers in other States ceased heaping ridicule on the Indiana State Legislature. Sadly, in our case, the grownups seem to have deserted the House of Commons.


15 Nov 23 - 05:04 PM (#4191946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

Passing a law stating that Rwanda is safe forcibly reminds me of the Indiana Pi Bill. I commend the Wikipedia page to you, but can't resist:

.... the Speaker accepted another member's recommendation to refer the bill to the Committee on Swamplands, where the bill could "find a deserved grave"

Happily, a real mathematician was in the building on other business, he educated members of the Indiana Senate, the bill was duly blocked, and the newspapers in other States ceased heaping ridicule on the Indiana State Legislature. Sadly, in our case, the grownups seem to have deserted the House of Commons.


15 Nov 23 - 05:48 PM (#4191935)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Sunak is entering a minefield. His daft tough talk today reeks of his need to react sharply to the idiot Braverman, which he doesn't need to do. He ignored a mass of evidence from Israel and UNHCR that Rwanda does not comply with agreements as to how asylum seekers should be treated, and it's clear that "safe country" does not apply to Rwanda.

That's one thing. But Starmer. As an opposition leader, as the leader of a party that's supposed to put ordinary people first, in contrast to self-serving Tories, why can't he call for a ceasefire? It's just a call. It's not a demand. It won't happen just because he calls for it. It would be a symbolic call only. It would, though, put clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. Instead, he clings to Sunak's coat tails. He runs scared of Biden should he beat Sunak in the election. He is not a leader. He's a follower. And his stance on the conflict is splitting the party. As any fule no, split parties always lose elections. So the next election is going to come down to who's more split, Labour or Tories. Sir K, it really doesn't need to be that way.


15 Nov 23 - 05:48 PM (#4185916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Sunak is entering a minefield. His daft tough talk today reeks of his need to react sharply to the idiot Braverman, which he doesn't need to do. He ignored a mass of evidence from Israel and UNHCR that Rwanda does not comply with agreements as to how asylum seekers should be treated, and it's clear that "safe country" does not apply to Rwanda.

That's one thing. But Starmer. As an opposition leader, as the leader of a party that's supposed to put ordinary people first, in contrast to self-serving Tories, why can't he call for a ceasefire? It's just a call. It's not a demand. It won't happen just because he calls for it. It would be a symbolic call only. It would, though, put clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. Instead, he clings to Sunak's coat tails. He runs scared of Biden should he beat Sunak in the election. He is not a leader. He's a follower. And his stance on the conflict is splitting the party. As any fule no, split parties always lose elections. So the next election is going to come down to who's more split, Labour or Tories. Sir K, it really doesn't need to be that way.


15 Nov 23 - 05:52 PM (#4185918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different."

But the trouble is that you wade in but have absolutely no desire to discuss our politics. The simple reason for that is that you have not studied our politics and your posts show no understanding of it. By all means join in. By which I mean, join in.


15 Nov 23 - 05:52 PM (#4191936)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different."

But the trouble is that you wade in but have absolutely no desire to discuss our politics. The simple reason for that is that you have not studied our politics and your posts show no understanding of it. By all means join in. By which I mean, join in.


15 Nov 23 - 06:40 PM (#4191937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Some Labour spokespeople I've heard today:

Pat McFadden
Yvette Cooper
Keir Starmer
Peter Kyle
Rachel Reeves
David Lammy
Barry Gardiner
(and others)

All calling for no ceasefire. In other words, carry on the slaughter but do listen to our very mild cautions.

All members of Labour Friends Of Israel.

Then Jess Phillips. Feminist, anti-Corbynite. She left the front bench today in protest against the anti-ceasefire stance.

She's also a member of Labour Friends of Israel. My opinion of her has soared. A real humanitarian. Kudos, Jess.


15 Nov 23 - 06:40 PM (#4185922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Some Labour spokespeople I've heard today:

Pat McFadden
Yvette Cooper
Keir Starmer
Peter Kyle
Rachel Reeves
David Lammy
Barry Gardiner
(and others)

All calling for no ceasefire. In other words, carry on the slaughter but do listen to our very mild cautions.

All members of Labour Friends Of Israel.

Then Jess Phillips. Feminist, anti-Corbynite. She left the front bench today in protest against the anti-ceasefire stance.

She's also a member of Labour Friends of Israel. My opinion of her has soared. A real humanitarian. Kudos, Jess.


18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM (#4185950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events.


18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM (#4191908)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events.


18 Nov 23 - 06:51 PM (#4191938)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Gosh, didn't think that last post of mine had taken. I meant to add this comment from Jess's letter, with which I couldn't agree more.

"I can see no route where the current military action does anything but put at risk the hope of peace and security for anyone in the region now and in the future."

Absolutely.


18 Nov 23 - 06:51 PM (#4185965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Gosh, didn't think that last post of mine had taken. I meant to add this comment from Jess's letter, with which I couldn't agree more.

"I can see no route where the current military action does anything but put at risk the hope of peace and security for anyone in the region now and in the future."

Absolutely.


19 Nov 23 - 08:16 AM (#4185999)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Thank you Steve, I do have far more questions than opinion.
I am monitoring British history from the Tudors to the Stuarts and as always listen to BBC. American history is a cinch compared to a thousand years of British history.


19 Nov 23 - 08:16 AM (#4191902)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel

Thank you Steve, I do have far more questions than opinion.
I am monitoring British history from the Tudors to the Stuarts and as always listen to BBC. American history is a cinch compared to a thousand years of British history.


19 Nov 23 - 09:00 AM (#4186002)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

UK's Online Safety Bill has become the Online Safety Act, complete with the section which states that the Forces of Law and Order shall be able to intercept any and all communications (the CSAM measure). The language carefully states that end-to-end encryption is not banned, but that intercepts shall be permitted once the technology exists to permit it. Since it's mathematically impossible for said technology to work as advertised, the Act has deemed (again) that black is white by legislative fiat.

More at the The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars at the Lawfare site. Once I find the earlier article I've been paraphrasing, I'll post a link to that too.


19 Nov 23 - 09:00 AM (#4191947)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

UK's Online Safety Bill has become the Online Safety Act, complete with the section which states that the Forces of Law and Order shall be able to intercept any and all communications (the CSAM measure). The language carefully states that end-to-end encryption is not banned, but that intercepts shall be permitted once the technology exists to permit it. Since it's mathematically impossible for said technology to work as advertised, the Act has deemed (again) that black is white by legislative fiat.

More at the The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars at the Lawfare site. Once I find the earlier article I've been paraphrasing, I'll post a link to that too.


20 Nov 23 - 10:49 PM (#4186063)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

As aforethreatened, analysis of clause 122 of the Online Safety Act:

UK admits 'spy clause' can't be used for scanning encrypted chat – it's not 'feasible'


UK Online Safety Bill to become law – and encryption busting clause is still there


27 Nov 23 - 07:43 AM (#4192447)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: McGrath of Harlow

Legislation saying that if something currently impossible becomes possible other things that are currently impossible will be legal is rational enough, even if it's a bit nonsensical. Like saying if pigs could fly air traffic control would need to be modified to prevent accidents.

It's not like passing a law saying that from now on throwing people over a cliff is safe.


27 Nov 23 - 09:12 AM (#4192457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> Like saying if pigs could fly air traffic control would need
> to be modified to prevent accidents.

It's slightly worse than that. The precise wording of the Bill Act is carefully imprecise, and can be bent to mean that the rules are hereby changed to explicitly ban communication which cannot be intercepted by the Forces of Law and Order *now*, whatever may or may not be possible in the future.


02 Dec 23 - 07:35 PM (#4192803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Well, if anyone is still in doubt about Starmer's socialist credentials, he's blown them out of the water now by praising Thatcher. From the Sunday Telegraph (!) via the Guardian:

Keir Starmer has praised Margaret Thatcher for effecting “meaningful change” in Britain in an article directly appealing to Conservative voters to switch to Labour.

Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, the Labour leader said Thatcher had “set loose our natural entrepreneurialism” during her time as prime minister.


I can scarcely bring myself to say more. Except that I've been bloody telling you about him, haven't I?


03 Dec 23 - 03:46 AM (#4192807)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

He said a lot more than that, didn’t he?

Here’s a link to the whole Guardian piece, And another to the Telegraph article, so people can read the whole thing and form their own impressions.


03 Dec 23 - 04:42 AM (#4192810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

You can't read the Telegraph piece unless you subscribe (I'd sooner hack off the family jewels with a rusty machete, frankly), and the Guardian piece says what I quoted and very little more. In other words, your "links" are next to useless except to dyed-in-the-wool Torygraph aficionados. Instead, I recommend a listen to Paddy O'Connell giving Starmer a rather uncomfortable grilling on Broadcasting House on Radio 4 this morning. I'm trusting the capable readers of this thread to find that for themselves. :-)


03 Dec 23 - 11:43 AM (#4192814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”You can't read the Telegraph piece unless you subscribe”

Nonsense. I don’t subscribe and I read it.

As I’ve told you several times now, rather than rely on your frequently edited C&Ps, I prefer to read the source material and form my own opinions. I can only guess at the true reason for your obstinacy in refusing to give links to your sources.


03 Dec 23 - 12:10 PM (#4192818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Keep guessing. Perhaps you have a conspiracy theory about me. I almost feel honoured. Well you must have magic powers because I couldn't get past the second line of that piece.

Anyway, do you have an opinion of Starmer's praising of Thatcher or would you rather discuss further why I don't do links as good as your last two? :-)


03 Dec 23 - 12:22 PM (#4192820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Geoff Wallis

It's definitely not nonsense. The Bellylaugh's Starmer interview is for subscribers only.


03 Dec 23 - 02:42 PM (#4192831)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

I followed the link and was able to read the Telegraph piece. Just had to keep scrolling down.

I am not a subscriber to The Telegraph.


03 Dec 23 - 04:11 PM (#4192832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

That's what they all say... ;-)


03 Dec 23 - 06:46 PM (#4192838)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

For the benefit of those who claim an inability to read the Telegraph (probably just Steve) here's the full quote:

From the Telegraph 02/12/2023

"Sir Keir Starmer heaped praise on Margaret Thatcher for effecting “meaningful change” in Britain as he launched an explicit appeal to Conservative voters to switch to Labour.

In his most audacious bid yet to woo centre-Right support, reminiscent of the New Labour years, the Labour leader accused the Tories of a “betrayal” of their promises to control migration.

In a shift from his staunch opposition to Britain’s departure from the EU before becoming leader, Sir Keir added that the Conservatives have “failed to realise the possibilities of Brexit”.

Writing for The Telegraph, he praised Thatcher for “setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism” and warned that public was again fed up with politicians “hectoring”.

His intervention is likely to fuel Tory MPs’ concerns about disillusionment among many 2019 Conservative voters with the Government’s approach to key areas such as immigration, inflation and crime.

It comes as Rishi Sunak prepares to decide how radical an approach to take with a new law to secure deportation flights to Rwanda before the next election.

A plan – a radical version of which would allow ministers to ignore the European Convention on Human Rights with regard to asylum – could be finalised within 24 hours and put to the Cabinet as soon as Tuesday."


03 Dec 23 - 07:05 PM (#4192842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"Probably just Steve" my arse, Nigel! I should think that probably four, maybe five people (I'm not counting) here have discussed this, and two of us, Geoff and I, have both said, quite correctly, that you can't read that article unless you subscribe. I'm not at all surprised that, in your case, you're pleased that Starmer aligned himself with the woman who wrecked this country's industry (especially in Wales, Nigel!) and who engendered the culture of the spiv.

Anyway, cheers for subjecting me to the Torygraph piece. I mentioned the Broadcasting House interview earlier. Did you listen? He got far more of a drubbing from Paddy O'Connell than he got from the Telegraph, which latter must have thought that it was their birthday when he spouted his Thatcher nonsense. Do have a listen and report back if you dare.


03 Dec 23 - 07:51 PM (#4192846)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons



I never claimed to be glad of the alignment. That's just in your narrow mind.
I don't believe that Thatcher "wrecked this country's industry" but she did restrict the power of the unions to stop industry from moving forwards.


03 Dec 23 - 08:25 PM (#4192848)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

That last sentence brands you as an archetypal Tory, Nigel. Good for you!


04 Dec 23 - 02:30 AM (#4192855)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”two of us, Geoff and I, have both said, quite correctly, that you can't read that article unless you subscribe.”

Then you did something wrong. I repeat - I am not a subscriber, I seldom read anything the Torygraph has to say and I certainly wouldn't pay to read it, but I Googled it, found the piece, read the whole thing, and created and posted the link.

A bit of IT-literacy is always helpful.


04 Dec 23 - 04:02 AM (#4192859)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Have you actually got anything at all to say about Starmer's praise for Thatcher?


04 Dec 23 - 04:08 AM (#4192860)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

I think John McTernen's article in the Guardian today makes some excellent points. Here is an extract

It happened because Starmer is listening to focus groups of swing voters. But the brutal truth is that there are no swing voters left – when support for the Tory party has fallen to 25%, there is no longer a pond to fish in. You’re convening groups of voters who are undecided whether to vote Tory, stay at home or opt for Nigel Farage and the Reform party. Sure they have views on what would make them listen to Labour – but they will never switch.

The priority for Starmer is to talk to the 45% of the voters he has won over and to reassure them that he is the change they want to see in the world of British politics.
...

That’s why Starmer shouldn’t give the Tories any quarter. A simple two-line manifesto is all he needs: “Get them out. We will fix it.”

“No complacency” is a crucial position for any political party. But the most dangerous complacency of all is to take your own voters for granted. None of the voters who are currently supporting Labour are wavering because they are worried that Starmer is insufficiently respectful of Margaret Thatcher. They want the Tories out. Labour needs to make that its rallying cry.


I am very much of the opinion that Starmer has worked very well and hard to turn round the massive gap from the 2019 election, though greatly helped by the incompetence of the government that won.

But there comes a point where he needs to be speaking to the people most likely to vote for him, not just the people in the middle. It is a glib over-simplification to say Corbyn mainly spoke to those who would vote for him anyway. Starmer hasn't made that mistake. But he is at risk of not talking to them at all.


04 Dec 23 - 05:13 AM (#4192864)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

The access to the Telegraph article is very client dependent. On my tablet, using Chrome, I could read it. On my desktop, using Firefox and clicking the link provided, I could read it. On my desktop using Chrome, it was blocked. On my desktop using Edge, it was blocked. It also seems to depend on whether you accept or reject cookies but I couldn't be bothered testing all the combinations.

Once you understand that not all browsers and devices act in the same way you can understand that people who can read it and people who cannot read it are not doing anything different, but their equipment is. There is no right or wrong here.

What was it you said, John? "A bit of IT-literacy is always helpful". As someone who worked in high-end IT design, support and testing I thing the phrase "A bit of IT-literacy is dangerous" would be more suitable.


04 Dec 23 - 05:21 AM (#4192865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

BTW - I think Steve uses an iPad (Correct me if I'm wrong). Probably with the default Safari browser. They are a law unto themselves


04 Dec 23 - 05:35 AM (#4192868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Very off topic, but on the IT-literacy angle. I wrote a website for a group of shanty singers I am with, which launched around three weeks ago. One of the things it can do is email a setlist to everyone taking part in gigs.

Roughly half of the recipient's systems put it in the spam folder. The other half are quite happy. I have sent it to a spam-assessment site and it is 100% clean/not spam in its opinion. My ISP asserts all the Internet configuration is correct.

It gets to me fine, which is a shame because otherwise I could investigate. I don;t have access to their machines to try to find out why they think it is spam.

Moral and relevance of the tale: IT systems are tricksy and just because things work for you does not mean it works for anyone else.

Oh, and for me, the articles being discussed are behind a paywall.


04 Dec 23 - 06:04 AM (#4192873)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

The comments that Starmer made in praise of the blue-rinse 80s country-wrecking harridan in that awful newspaper have been all over the media in any case this weekend. Thatcher single-mindedly tried to destroy the trade unions and Starmer is single-mindedly trying to destroy the left. Similar sentiments in play, so no wonder he's in love with her ghost. As we've seen from the actions of rail workers, nurses, junior doctors, hospital consultants and teachers, she failed to kill the unions, and he's going to find the left coming back to bite him.

I'm iPad only these days, Dave. As for me and links, there's a mottled history on this forum of frivolous, time-wasting links, links to stuff 45 minutes long, links to irrelevant YouTube songs that are supposed to make some political point or other, links that don't work, links that take you to a paywall, links that only people in the linker's country can see and, worst of all, posts containing links that are unsupported by any comments from the poster. Those last ones I consider to be lazy and bad-mannered and I never look at them. If I see something interesting I'll tell you where I saw it and post a relevant clip/comment on it. If you can't handle that I feel sorry for you, and criticising me for such a tiny peccadillo whilst simultaneously having nothing to say about the topic in hand is, frankly, childish.


04 Dec 23 - 06:33 AM (#4192877)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

DMcG quoting from the John McTernen article in The Guardian.

"That’s why Starmer shouldn’t give the Tories any quarter. A simple two-line manifesto is all he needs: “Get them out. We will fix it.”"

That made me smile. "Get them out and We will try to fix it.", might be more honest.

Meanwhile here in Kent we have one Labour MP. She won in Canterbury in 2017. The constituency had been represented by a Conservative since its creation in 1918.

From KentOnline


"Last week she was said to be under investigation and not among the Labour Party’s list of approved candidates despite being selected by the local party group, according to reports.

KentOnline has tried speaking to her about the investigations but the MP has not responded to our requests for comment.

Meanwhile, the Labour Party itself also refused to comment when approached by KentOnline regarding Ms Duffield’s selection."

I know she is not everyone's cup of tea, still it does seem a little strange.


04 Dec 23 - 06:41 AM (#4192878)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”BTW - I think Steve uses an iPad (Correct me if I'm wrong). Probably with the default Safari browser. They are a law unto themselves”

That’s exactly what I use, Dave - a 2017 iPad (which I originally bought because the software for my DJI Drone wouldn’t run on my 2012-vintage iPad!) and the standard Safari browser. I find it at least as easy to use for interweb-surfing as my year-old Dell Laptop (Win 11 and either MS Edge or Firefox) and far more convenient.

Your previous post was very interesting, and I hadn’t actually considered the different behaviours between the various browsers. Thanks for the info.


04 Dec 23 - 07:46 AM (#4192885)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

You're welcome, John. See DMcG's comment as well.

The number of new systems I have stopped or delayed the roll out on because they cannot be used in a number of circumatances is very high indeed. Occasionaly we would have to use the old phrase 'not supported' (doesn't mean it will not work!) on this browser or that kit. The old 80/20 rule ofthen applies. If it works 80% of the time with 20% of the effort, why spend another 80% effort to get it working on the other 20% !?!

I am long retired now but still have multiple browsers on Android, Windows and Linux devices to check out if one works where another doesn't. The ones I lack are Apple devices - Simply due to cost!


04 Dec 23 - 07:55 AM (#4192886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Just a little more on my theory about cookies. I tried following the link on my Desktop using Firefox and can read it fine. If I use a private window, which doesn't allow any tracking, following the link in the same way doesn't allow access. I suspect that there is something in The Torygraph's coding that stops people who do not allow tracking reading their stuff.

It's the last link of their's that I shall follow!


04 Dec 23 - 08:18 AM (#4192890)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Yes Dave, I saw DMcG’s post - although there are some people whose posts I choose to always ignore, there are others whose posts I always read, and DMcG is one of the latter. Another good post, of course. On the topic of emails and ‘Junk/Spam Folders’, I make a point of checking my Outlook Junk and Bin folders pretty much daily.

”Moral and relevance of the tale: IT systems are tricksy and just because things work for you does not mean it works for anyone else.”

Absolutely correct. And equally true in reverse. ;-)

BTW, although since retirement my IT skills aren’t as up-to date as they could be, I do have a career-long involvement with IT alongside my accountancy activities, beginning in 1968 aged 21, as a COBOL programmer and company analyst on IBM 1902A Mainframe, through Burroughs VRC programming, user of one of the original IBM PCs (no Hard Drive, just two floppies, Lotus 123 - oh, what fun we had!), a number of years as de facto computer dept. manager whilst officially the Management Accountant, and trainer for the company’s finance, planning, and production IT systems. So, whilst not claiming to have the expertise of some of us here, including yourself, I do believe I have a reasonable modicum of understanding of IT ‘stuff’.

And that puts the issue of Links to bed AFAIC. ;-)


04 Dec 23 - 11:14 AM (#4192899)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

I never refuse cookies and I still couldn't read it. Anyway, as John Has Spoken, perhaps we can get back to Starmer and Thatcher. I note that he also mentioned Blair as another of his heroes. So we'll be invading Gaza once he gets in.


04 Dec 23 - 11:28 AM (#4192903)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

He is also fond of Attlee. Perhqps that does not suit your agenda.

I agree that his fondness tor Thatcher will not go down well with all the older voters.


04 Dec 23 - 12:57 PM (#4192907)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

My not mentioning Attlee has nothing to do with any "agenda" you might be ascribing to me (by the way, isn't it amusing that right-wingers always assume that we lefties have "an agenda"! We're reds and what more do you need, eh!) Attlee did a great job for the country after the war but his administration ran out of steam and let the Tories back in after six short years. Starmer will be PM only because the Tories are losers, and my money is on him surviving for far less time than Clem.

Incidentally, Thatcher was a great admirer of Attlee. What a shame that the three of them aren't contemporaries. What a love-in that might have been!


04 Dec 23 - 01:19 PM (#4192909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

"By the way, isn't it amusing that right-wingers always assume that we lefties have "an agenda"

By the way, isn't it amusing that some of tbe older left wingers always presume that younger (not much younger) have "an agenda"

I have never been a member of any political party, just like the vast majority of the UK population.

You spout your cause. Be honest, how many of the population agree with you? Most people just want to improve their personal circumstances. They have little interest in party politics.

Again, I have never voted Tory. I voted remain.


04 Dec 23 - 01:36 PM (#4192910)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Thatcher had some personal qualities that, if possessed in equal measure by others of a different political stripe, would be regarded by her detractors as desirable and laudable - she was determined, had the courage of her convictions, knew where she wanted the country to go politically, and had a plan to get it there.

In every other respect, she was a complete, absolute, and utter arsehole.


04 Dec 23 - 01:46 PM (#4192911)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

And people voted for her.

Nowadays the worrying thing is that fewer people turn out to vote.

I am 65. Is there anyone younger than me posting to this thread?

I doubt it.


04 Dec 23 - 01:54 PM (#4192912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”I am 65. Is there anyone younger than me posting to this thread?”

Not Guilty, m’lud. 76 at the last count.

I’ve long thought that her election success in the 1979 GE was probably the first time we saw the result of a ‘Personality-Politics’-driven campaign.


04 Dec 23 - 02:00 PM (#4192914)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

…Ooops, hit the ‘Go’ button too soon.

Like you, RD, I’ve never voted Tory, I voted ‘Remain’.


04 Dec 23 - 02:13 PM (#4192915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

I have the feeling that I am one of the youngest who posts to this thread.

How many (of the handful who post to this thread) have any idea of what the vast population want?


04 Dec 23 - 02:25 PM (#4192916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

It is her legacy of "get what you want and fuck everyone else" that did most damage. In my opinion. We are still suffering from it now. Most people are not selfish by nature but Thatcherism made a virtue of grabbing all you can get and turned caring for others into weakness. The rise of populism is the appeal to the selfish.

Well, it's my theory. Probably bollocks but I still like to share anyway :-)


04 Dec 23 - 02:49 PM (#4192920)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Can’t disagree with any of that, Dave. As I said, an arsehole in every other respect.


04 Dec 23 - 02:53 PM (#4192922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”How many (of the handful who post to this thread) have any idea of what the vast population want?”

I’m guessing none of us can honestly claim that knowledge, RD. But we all probably have a reasonable idea of what we, as individuals, want and I’d suggest that most (though not necessarily all) of us aren’t very different to the majority of the population.


04 Dec 23 - 04:55 PM (#4192934)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

How many agree with me! Well I don't know, and neither do you, to answer your cod-rhetorical question. Be honest, you say. Well without making it personal I'd definitely say that, in general, lefties are far more honest and principled than right-wingers, who generally tend to be rather self-serving and me-first. Maybe lefties are not the best tacticians. But if you adopt tactics to win an election, instead of just showing the best of yourself and being honest with the electorate, you might just be having to ditch a principle or two. Maybe that's OK, who knows. Do you suppose that Peter Mandelson or Alastair Campbell always told Blair to tell the unvarnished truth?


04 Dec 23 - 08:01 PM (#4192941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Good piece in the Guardian pointing out that praising Thatcher was a mistake and providing the arguments for that. A word to the wise, Keir Starmer: whoever advised you to praise Thatcher got it wrong
[John McTernan, who was Tony Blair's political secretary]

If Starmer thinks he's appealing to "swing voters," he's deluded because there are hardly any. What he will do by sucking up to Thatcher's ghost is disillusion the people who are already lined up to vote for him, many without much enthusiasm. People like me, who are already preparing to hold their noses. I won't be changing my mind, but there are millions in this country who were shat on, or their families were, by the despicable Thatcher regime. Clumsy move.


04 Dec 23 - 09:18 PM (#4192946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome: It is her legacy of "get what you want and fuck everyone else" that did most damage. In my opinion. We are still suffering from it now.
I suppose the other option was to give in to Arthur Scargill and the mine workers (Who thought they could hold the country to ransom because without coal we weren't sufficient in energy, and the steel mills couldn't run.)
Massive pay rises for the miners would mean higher inflation, and misery for those who couldn't get equivalent rises (and if they could, further fueling inflation).
Good job Maggie made her preparations, and chose her battleground.

And unlike those claiming never to have voted Tory, I have voted Labour at a General Election (but only the once).


05 Dec 23 - 03:22 AM (#4192952)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

We shall never know what would have really happened without Thatcherism though will we, Nigel. We do know that with it whole communities were decimated, workers rights were destroyed and the gap between rich and poor started to skyrocket. Funnily enough, I agree that the NUM had become too powerful for it's own good. What I disagree with is that it was a simple binary choice between destroying them or damaging the economy. There could have been a compromise but, as in your 'other option', we will never know!


05 Dec 23 - 05:31 AM (#4192966)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash

"Massive pay rises for the miners would mean higher inflation, and misery for those who couldn't get equivalent rises (and if they could, further fueling inflation)."

Did this scenario also apply to the "Captains of Industry" and the Banking and Financial bureaucrats who received massive pay rises and continue to do so.


05 Dec 23 - 06:30 AM (#4192972)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, they deserved it Raggy. Dangerous job on the trading floor and screwing people over...


05 Dec 23 - 06:46 AM (#4192973)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Raggy: Did this scenario also apply to the "Captains of Industry" and the Banking and Financial bureaucrats who received massive pay rises and continue to do so.

I am also against the 'captains of industry' (and bankers) being paid extreme multiples of what the basic worker gets, and believe it has got out of hand.
However, the massive pay rises for the very few do not greatly affect the average (or median) wage, and so are not effecting inflation in the same way.


05 Dec 23 - 06:51 AM (#4192974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

"Holding the country to ransom" always makes me laugh. You could level that ridiculous accusation against any body of workers who are fighting for higher pay and better conditions, but, oddly, Tories never level the same accusation against non-doms and other ultra-wealthy people who threaten to take their money elsewhere at the mere hint that their taxes might have to go up.


05 Dec 23 - 08:49 AM (#4192981)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. If 999 people earn 100 per week and 1 person earns 1000 a week, the average pay for that 1000 is 199.90 a week. If the 999 ask for a pay increase, we are told that nearly 200 a week is plenty and the workers are holding the country to ransom.

Ok, simplistic but that is how it seems to work nowadays :-(


05 Dec 23 - 09:02 AM (#4192982)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry Nigel. My apologies for poor arithmetic! No excuse but I do have a man here turning the power on and off and I was distracted! If 999 earn 100 and 1 earn 100000 it should have been of course. Mea Culpa


05 Dec 23 - 09:17 AM (#4192986)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel. If 999 people earn 100 per week and 1 person earns 1000 a week, the average pay for that 1000 is 199.90 a week.

999*£100 = 99,900
+1,000 = 100,900
/1000 (total people) = 100.90 per week average


05 Dec 23 - 09:21 AM (#4192987)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Seems you corrected while I was typing.
The new version requires the boss to be on a multiplier of 1,000 of his average workers pay. That still seems a little extreme to use as an example.


05 Dec 23 - 12:43 PM (#4193002)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Probably not extreme enought nowadays Nigel!

What percentage of wealth is owned by what percentage of people?


05 Dec 23 - 12:47 PM (#4193004)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

The 80/20 rule is more properly: The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the available time. The last 10% also takes 90% of the available time.

Meanwhile, back at the point:

> It happened because Starmer is listening to focus groups of
> swing voters.

That was Tone the Clone's single point of failure, which is more properly called following from the front*. We're stuffed.

* I'm sure I've mentioned this before: it's what our cat does when he thinks there's food in it for him.


06 Dec 23 - 01:24 PM (#4193057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I see Bozo is blaming the WhatsApp app for losing all the messages from the early part of the pandemic. This enquiry is one of the best bits of comic fantasy I have come across in a long time!


07 Dec 23 - 04:13 AM (#4193102)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

The resignation of Jennick has set the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons. On "Newsnight" it was speculated that Sunak might make the vote on the new bill a vote of confidence to try to force it through.

On my reading, that would be a tactical error. The right wing are convinced the Conservatives will lose the next election anyway, so their thoughts are not on the party winning the house, but themselves holding their own seat. And they judge the mood of the public is for stronger action on this bill, so they see their best hope lies with voting against it, whether Sunak makes it a confidence vote or not.


07 Dec 23 - 06:41 AM (#4193109)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Nice dog-whistle news conference from Sunak. Come on you hard-right. Get on board. Let's keep the merry-go-round a-spinning even though I said it won't. Can't you see I'm a desperate man with Cruella snapping at my heels?

By the way, is there a person in the house who can run the country...?

Cruella played it well with Nick Robinson this morning even with his going for her jugular (rather him than me). She kept her cool very nicely whilst saying nothing. We all know what she's up to!


07 Dec 23 - 07:17 AM (#4193110)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

It is worth noting that every question from the media was basically the same, though. They are aware this press statement is not going to actually make things easier for Sunak.


07 Dec 23 - 09:52 AM (#4193118)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Every answer was the same too. That part of the press conference was highly-orchestrated. The whole thing reeked of a last-ditch, desperate appeal to his own party, especially those on the right.

Labour are supposedly going to vote against the bill. I'm not aware that Starmer has yet had the courage to say that he'd ditch the whole Rwanda farce. I think he should grow some cojones and say that he will, and tell us what he'd do instead. He can't keep letting the Tories say that "Labour hasn't even got a plan" at every turn.


08 Dec 23 - 09:48 AM (#4193194)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> Cruella played it well with Nick Robinson this morning even
> with his going for her jugular

Of Livia, Caesar Augustus's missus: "I heard a snake bit her, and died."


08 Dec 23 - 10:13 AM (#4193195)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

How dare Braverman suggest that I am a racist bigot like her BNP/UKIP/EDL/NF/Britain First or other group of neo-nazi s**m chum she needs to court to win their votes by claiing she is nly speaking on behalf of the 'people of Britain'

I demand a personal apology from Nick Robinson for failing to apoligise on line for Braverman's suggestion that as a British National I am racist filth by association.


12 Dec 23 - 05:47 AM (#4193428)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw

Bloody painful listen on the Today programme this morning. Mishal Husain had the spluttering, stuttering, clunky, meandering, hesitant Starmer on the back foot all the way through the interview. Hopeless. Worrying.


25 Jan 24 - 03:10 PM (#4196178)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Bozzer supports Trump

What a surprise. lets just hope that he is as right about this as he was about everything else!


28 Jan 24 - 01:57 PM (#4196288)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Assuming that Starmer will be PM in November, I would what his contingency is for Trump regaining power? I suspect that the orange one will write our PM off as a Communist! I suppose by comparison...


29 Jan 24 - 05:42 AM (#4196321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I WONDER what is etc...


30 Jan 24 - 04:02 AM (#4196377)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

It is great news that the DUP has agreed to power-sharing so that Stormont can restart. The people of Northern Ireland deserve to ability to elect their own government, and that is once again restarting, by the sound of it.

However, the Guardian's report on this says "Sinn Féin will get to nominate its inaugural first minister after Westminster legislates to end checks on goods moving within UK and imposition of EU law". And I am afraid that sounds very much like we are going back to square one. It is inherent in having different rules and regulations in the EU and the UK that there is a border somewhere. To be clear, I don;t mean 'border posts', but I do mean a line where the rules differ on each side of it.

Simply saying 'it will not be in the Irish Sea', which this sounds like, just reopens the question "Where is it then?" that has been the problem since day 1 of the negotiations.

I can see only one solution that preserves the GFA and the Windsor Agreement and satisfies the DUP requirement that the rules are the same in NI and the rest of the UK, and that is that every item produced anywhere in the UK has the 'not for sale in the EU' label.

The idea NI does not have to abide by EU law is trickier to address, because that is in the existing agreement with the EU. So that takes us back to before Theresa May's days...


30 Jan 24 - 05:16 AM (#4196387)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Brexit. The gift that keeps on giving!


30 Jan 24 - 05:32 AM (#4196388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

If UK opens up the NI/UK border, against EU law then EU must either reinstate our membership or tear up the NI Treaty (Good Friday Agreement. Although the former would be ideal, the latter would probably be the best thing as there is a good chance of violence and bloodshed resuming in Ulster, and that would teach the tories a lesson (HEAVY IRONY). When families are burying their loved ones again, they need to be grateful to the self-serving chancers who gratified their ego trips and topped up the troughs that their snouts are planted in like johnson, mogg, fartarse. As far as I am concerned, if one life is lost, every nasty little proverbial who voted leave should be convicted of murder, locked up for the rest of their lives or deported to another continent.


30 Jan 24 - 05:47 AM (#4196389)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Yes, having repeatedly failed to sort the position of NI arising out of Brexit, despite every variation May-Johnson-Truss-Sunak and their negotiators have been able to come up with, it now looks like they are trying "Let's dump it in Labour's inbox".

Labour cannot sort it either, of course, without addressing the whole EU relationship, not just borders. And so a key part of the Conservative tactics as we approach the next election is going to include a focus on what Labour will do or rule out.


14 Feb 24 - 07:18 AM (#4197161)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

From the BBC News

"Labour will block those not fit to be MPs, says John Healey"

If only all parties would do the same. Mind you, we would most likely end up with an empty house of commons...

It is of course with reference to the latest bout of antisemitism due to criticism of the Israeli regime now being treated as antisemitic.

I am heavily sickened by this and those who weaponise antisemitism to defend the actions of a regime hell bent of exterminating the Palestinian people should be ashamed of themselves.


14 Feb 24 - 07:54 AM (#4197162)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Amen Dave, Amen.


16 Feb 24 - 02:42 AM (#4197282)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

The Tory Party Chairman on BBC Breakfast this morning, struggling manfully to impart a lustre on a sizeable piece of fæcal matter, following their disastrous performance in the two by-elections yesterday. I felt slightly sorry for him initially, but I soon came to my senses.

Worrying to see the Reform UK (formerly UKIP and The BrexShit Party) polling comparatively well. Apparently racism and xenophobia are alive and well in parts of the UK.


16 Feb 24 - 03:32 AM (#4197284)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

I Hope Labour win.I think trade deals that puts the uk and europe in a common market situation would be good


16 Feb 24 - 01:29 PM (#4197323)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

There isn't a valid Labour Party any more, Dick. Tory light look like winning though.


02 Mar 24 - 03:35 AM (#4198368)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, Gorgeous George is back in the house. Too much of a loose cannon for my liking but certainly a force to contend with and a kick in the nuts for Starmer's Tory light party.

In other news, Fishy Rishi is claiming that Islamist and far right politics are ruining the country. An obvious dig at Palestinian supporters.

Surely, as Galloway 8s anything but far right, the two events are not related are they? ;-S


02 Mar 24 - 04:19 AM (#4198372)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Very interesting to hear ‘Fishy’ Rishi Sunak, speaking in Downing Street yesterday, complaining that there are elements trying to cause division, and trying to destroy democracy, in the UK.

You’re absolutely right, Rishi. You and your party have been doing those things for years - Tory Brexiteering, Islamophobic statements from Tory MPs, deliberately frustrating long-running pay-disputes with doctors, nurses, and railway-workers and blaming them, denying parliamentary votes and pushing through legislation without a vote being taken, spreading anti-protest propaganda, character-assassinations on MPs of other parties, yadda yadda. I’m sure there are more, but those will do for now.


02 Mar 24 - 10:23 AM (#4198379)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> as Galloway [is] anything but far right

It doesn't matter if they're extreme left or extreme right, they're extremists. (That's the polite way to put it.) Most people draw a straight line, and map that to people's political affiliations; but it's not a straight line. The original line was circular, to the left and right of Louis XIV. When I explain this in person, I hold my index fingers together, then use them to draw two semicircles in the air .... and the hands meet again at the bottom.


08 Mar 24 - 07:06 AM (#4198754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

Was there a Daily Express front page article today about Brexit being a success?


08 Mar 24 - 07:40 AM (#4198757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> Was there a Daily Express front page article today about
> Brexit being a success?

There was: it was under Kemi Badenoch's byline. If she says it often enough, she might even believe it herself.

I really, really wish I could declare independence from Planet Headbanger.


08 Mar 24 - 08:14 AM (#4198759)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Aaaahh, Kemi Badenoch, one of the chief headbangers of the Headbangers Party, trumpets more Pre-election Propaganda bollocks. Presumably, the feeble-minded shit-for-brains who fell for the Brexiteers’ bullshit in 2016 will fall for her nonsense in 2024…

Badenoch’s bollocks…


08 Mar 24 - 09:22 AM (#4198762)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

have the lunatics taken over


10 Mar 24 - 01:28 AM (#4198821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

> have the lunatics taken over

Long since. When the playground deteriorates to name-calling and fist fights, those with sense* leave the battlefield, or in this case get kicked upstairs into the House of Lords.

* I would have said "grown-ups", but this is politics we're talking about.


12 Mar 24 - 04:58 AM (#4198955)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

As if to underline the above point, it seems the Fishy Rishi is bringing BoJo back to help win the election. Well, he lied and cheated his way to the top so I suppose bozzer is well suited to fool those who believed his lies last time. Surely even our most ardent Tory supporters on here can see how desperate things are they feel that they cannot win without the blonde buffoon!


13 Mar 24 - 09:08 AM (#4199015)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

Scottish Independence, will it happen? How Will it affect England , and Ireland. They [Yasouf] are talking about reducing corporation tax, to compete with Ireland.


13 Mar 24 - 02:15 PM (#4199044)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

What about Wales?


13 Mar 24 - 05:41 PM (#4199050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

indeed


14 Mar 24 - 03:16 AM (#4199067)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

…or even Northern Ireland?


14 Mar 24 - 08:46 AM (#4199081)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

That is unlikely


19 Mar 24 - 06:46 AM (#4199327)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

I just got a leaflet through about the May elections. It is based on a Union flag, and as I picked it up I was thinking something on the UKIP/NF/Reform lines. Then I thought Conservative is more likely.

It turns out to be Labour. Ok, I get they want to reclaim that they are as patriotic as anyone else. But it still jars ...


19 Mar 24 - 05:44 PM (#4199361)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCtyISRcRw MAIDEN SPEECH G GALLOWAY


20 Mar 24 - 04:32 AM (#4199382)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Not exactly a maiden speech from someone who has been in the house 3 times before (I think!) is it?


30 Mar 24 - 05:02 AM (#4200062)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Back on the 19 March I posted on here that I was uncomfortable with the latest Labour leaflets. According to an article in the Guardian, a number of candidates are unhappy as well. Even Sue Gray has reservations.

There was criticism from those at a meeting of MPs from ethnic minority backgrounds, including Starmer’s chief of staff, Sue Gray, and the chief whip, Alan Campbell, of freepost leaflets that were – as one MP put it – “plastered with union jacks”.

Keir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers


30 Mar 24 - 12:40 PM (#4200091)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I must say I do find it annoyong that people object to a flag - be it the Union Jack or the Flag of St George. OK, they have been (ab)used by right wing parties and others but that is not the fault of the flag!


31 Mar 24 - 06:34 AM (#4200133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

I've noticed an interesting correlation: the inverse relation between the number of flags visible in the camera shot of a politician, and the number of things said politician has to actually say. In the argot of UNIX error messages:

       EEMPTYBARREL, excess flags error


31 Mar 24 - 06:52 PM (#4200168)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: keberoxu

Here is someone writing for USA audiences about Great Britain.

New Yorker: Sam Knight on fourteen years of Conservative rule


01 Apr 24 - 05:38 PM (#4200241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

A long and hard read, kebroxu, but brilliant and truthful. Thank you for the link.


02 Apr 24 - 01:26 AM (#4200270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Yes indeed, an excellent treatise on fourteen years of mis-rule, deception, and the populist, three-word, election-winning, slogan.


03 Apr 24 - 06:47 AM (#4200337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk

I can still remember the Labour slogan "Thirteen years of Tory misrule" which helped sweep Harold Wilson into power six decades ago*. I'm a great fan (or victim?) of the wave-harmonic theory of historical perception.

* Good grief.


03 May 24 - 07:19 AM (#4201956)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Very amusing to see Tory MP Andrea Leadsom on BBC2’s ‘Politics Live’ just now, desperately attempting to apply lip-gloss to a pig over the Tories’ performance, or rather lack of performance, in yesterday’s local elections.

Time the party of selfishness and greed were gone, and for a very long time.


04 May 24 - 05:25 AM (#4201986)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

We now have a Labour mayor in N Yorks. Which is quite funny seeing as the area contains Sunak's constituency:-)


04 May 24 - 06:15 AM (#4201990)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

I was also amused to see Ben Houchen, the Tory Mayor of Tees Valley, was re-elected following a campaign in which he distanced himself from his Party, not even wearing the blue Tory rosette. He continued to eschew the wearing of the rosette at the result-announcement and, when he was later joined by Sunak and congratulated on his win, his body-language spoke volumes about his contempt for his leader and the performance of the government.


04 May 24 - 06:16 AM (#4201991)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Ben Houchen wins Tees Valley Mayoral election…


04 May 24 - 06:40 AM (#4201993)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG

Ben Houchen's result is much closer to the 'normal' range than his previous 73%. Even so, I am surprised the Teesport issue was not enough to completely sway the result against him. The people of Redcar and Middlesbrough, for example, certainly were familiar with the claims that were made of dubious sales and contracts.


05 May 24 - 05:47 AM (#4202058)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator

I must say that the results of the last three days has been particularly pleasing. Sadiq re-elected as London Mayor in spite of a nasty, ad-hominem, negative campaign against him. Bassam elected as GLA rep for Ealing and Hillingdon, 9 Labour & Co-operative part GLA reps and two Labour Party only (oh well can't win them all!!!). And that is just London!


08 May 24 - 05:46 PM (#4202255)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog

Labour have sunk to a new low.

I still cannot believe this.

Keir Starmer sparks Labour anger with decision to admit Natalie Elphicke

We are living in strange times.


09 May 24 - 03:38 AM (#4202274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Not my idea of a Labour MP, and not a good move IMO. I wonder if, along with many other Labour MPs, Rachel Reeves wants to tell her to “Fuck off” once again?


09 May 24 - 07:40 AM (#4202280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Natalie Elphike won’t be a Labour MP for long because, reportedly, she does not intend to stand for re-election at the GE later this year or early next year. She’s undoubtedly a nasty piece of work, but I don’t really believe it’s going to matter in the long run. Thinking about it, perhaps accepting her into the LP is nothing more than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick for Sunak and the ERG mob?


10 May 24 - 02:01 PM (#4202326)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”James O’Brien and LBC’s Political Editor, Natasha Clark, analyse this week's PMQs as Rishi Sunak faced Sir Keir Starmer.

To the surprise of many in the Commons, Starmer announced that MP Natalie Elphicke had defected from the Conservatives to Labour.

'Why on earth are Labour accepting this Tory?'
'He was rattled throughout'
'It's not something you can prepare for'
'She's not destined to become a sparkly jewel'
'It gives Starmer yet another stick to batter him with'
'Starmer's launched a two-pronged attack on the Tory Party'
'This defection statement is seething'
'A third defection to come?'
'They've run out of road'
'Shall we have a little bet?'
'Sunak is slinging out the same old insults'
'The mud isn't sticking anymore'


James O’Brien and Natasha Clark on LBC, discussing Sunak’s train-wreck in this Wednesday’s PMQs.

Right on the button.


10 May 24 - 02:39 PM (#4202329)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

SPB
"I must say that the results of the last three days has been particularly pleasing. Sadiq re-elected as London Mayor in spite of a nasty, ad-hominem, negative campaign against him."

I admit I was not in London, but I saw no ad hominem attacks on Sadiq Khan. I saw attacks on his 'principles', but no attacks based on him as a human being.

I would be interested to see examples of 'ad hominem' attacks.


10 May 24 - 06:37 PM (#4202337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Google "attacks on Sadiq Khan", Nigel. You will find plenty. If you want to narrow it down a little try using Tory HQ or Lee Anderson as well.


11 May 24 - 12:32 AM (#4202343)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Well, Nigel, you could start here - 30p-Lee attacks Sadiq Khan

No thanks necessary, only too pleased to help…


11 May 24 - 12:42 AM (#4202344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Of course, ad hominem attacks and attempted character assassinations have long been the favourite tools of the shameless Self-Servatives, the party of the greedy and selfish, plenty of evidence in the last few GEs, and they stooped to a new low in the London Mayoral elections - Tory HQ gutter-tactics again…

They have no morals and no shame in their naked lust for power and control, do they?


11 May 24 - 03:07 AM (#4202346)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

In our N Yorks mayoral election I must admit being very impressed by the Tory candidate's manifesto and commitment. Then, right at the end of the leaflet, an attack was launched at the Labour candidate. I doubt I would have voted Tory but had it not been for that attack I would have at least gone to meet him when he visited our village.

I voted for one of the independents.


11 May 24 - 08:25 AM (#4202356)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Backwoodsman:
Well, Nigel, you could start here - 30p-Lee attacks Sadiq Khan
No thanks necessary, only too pleased to help…


No thanks will be tendered then. That old article predates (comes before) the Mayoral Election campaign, so doesn't help confirm SPB's comments about the mayoral election.


11 May 24 - 02:37 PM (#4202378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

No comment on my second linked article then, Nigel - the one that most definitely does refer to the mayoral election, and ad hominem attacks on Sadiq Khan, not by individuals like the thick-as-a-plank 30p-Lee, but by Tory HQ itself?

Here it is again, in case you missed it the first time…


11 May 24 - 03:16 PM (#4202381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel, attacks on Sadiq Khan by the Tories and their gutter press friends have been sustained and over a long period. SPBs comment was that he won despite this campaign of smear tactics is valid. Saying that the vile attacks started before the recent elections only underlines the point.


11 May 24 - 03:25 PM (#4202383)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

After a long absence, evidence here that Nigel is alive and well, and still honing his nit-picking skills (and, of course, nit-picking is easier than actually responding to the question).

{{sigh}}


11 May 24 - 03:31 PM (#4202384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Saying that the vile attacks started before the recent elections only underlines the point.
Or makes the point that the dislike of him is not just because he was standing for mayor.

I can understand people objecting to his ULEZ rules, and objecting to his preference for cycling (war on drivers). Not everything is ad hominem much is against his actions.


11 May 24 - 03:38 PM (#4202385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”Not everything is ad hominem much is against his actions”

So you agree that, at least in part if not in entirety, attacks by Tory MPs, Tory supporters, the Tory press, and Tory HQ itself, are ad hominem?


11 May 24 - 04:05 PM (#4202388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

The only point being made was that he won despite a long and vicious smear campaign.


17 May 24 - 03:16 AM (#4202586)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman

I can understand people objecting to his ULEZ rules, and objecting to his preference for cycling (war on drivers). Not everything is ad hominem much is against his actions quoite
poopycock


17 May 24 - 10:54 AM (#4202602)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Poppycock? I dread to think what could cause that condition...

399 - someone else can have it :-)


17 May 24 - 11:55 AM (#4202605)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh well, seeing as my message was auto corrected I may as well claim 400 :-)

Poopycock? I dread to think what could cause that condition...


19 May 24 - 05:03 PM (#4202697)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Supporters of Vaughan Gething (First Minister for Wales) have accused other parties of racial bias for trying to bring him to account for his actions. (dodgy funding, and sacking a colleague for 'leaking')
No one in the opposition seems to have mentioned his race.
The only mention of it that I recall was in his acceptance speech as first minister: “We have of course, today voted also to ensure that Wales becomes the first nation anywhere in Europe to be led by a black person.
“It is a matter of pride for a modern Wales but also a daunting responsibility for me – and one that I do not take lightly."


So he plays that card himself, and then his colleagues claim that others are playing it!


22 May 24 - 01:29 PM (#4202821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash

So, an election has been called for the 4th of July in the UK, not before time many of us think.

The predictions over the past few months have been for an absolute landslide in favour of the Labour party a result, I for one, would welcome.

However I do not think we should be complacent in any way, I am sure the Conservative party still have a few nasty tricks up the collective sleeves, and I think the smaller parties could also do well given the seemingl massive distrust of the conservatives and the seemingly low personal rating of the Labour leader Kier Starmer.


23 May 24 - 03:19 AM (#4202840)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

Very telling that Sunak seems to be intending to run the campaign on a ‘Presidential Election’ basis - asking this morning, “Who do you want to see in No. 10?”. Get ready for the usual character-assassination tactics from the Party of the Greedy and Selfish.

And never underestimate voter-stupidity and gullibility - plenty of evidence of those in the Brexit vote and the 2019 GE. More evidence on this morning’s TV vox-pops - a couple of wrinklies saying that the Tories have had some difficult issues to deal with over the past fourteen years, and it’s only fair to vote for them again and give them the chance to put their mistakes right! Jesus Wept!


23 May 24 - 07:41 AM (#4202844)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

There will be no Rwanda flights before then and I suspect that is part of the reason he has called it early. When asked what he has done about his promise to keep small boats away he will reply that the Rwanda deportations were blocked so the boats are still coming. Part of his manifesto will be to continue on that tack even though it is blatantly obvious that it was just populist bollocks.


24 May 24 - 09:36 AM (#4202888)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

What are the chances of either of the main parties addressing the major elephant in the room - Brexit?!


24 May 24 - 09:48 AM (#4202889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons

Many people, including the two main parties, were happy to ignore it before the idea came to prominence. Why should it be any different now?


24 May 24 - 10:29 AM (#4202891)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome

I'm probably being a bit slow, Nigel, but I don't understand your point.


24 May 24 - 11:49 AM (#4202894)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman

”What are the chances of either of the main parties addressing the major elephant in the room - Brexit?!”

Absolutely zero, IMHO, but they should. The biggest disaster to befall this country since WW2, lie upon lie upon lie rammed down the electorate’s throats by the ‘Leave’ campaigners who wanted Brexit for no other reason than it suited their own greed and selfishness, and the results are clear to see.

It’s very rarely that I agree with a Tory about anything, but I’m in whole-hearted agreement with this piece from Lord Heseltine in his ‘European Movement’ email today…

”I am 91 years old. I have lived through many elections.

But I’m sorry to say that I think this will be the most dishonest general election of my life.

Why? Because it’s going to talk about all the problems, but avoid any of the real solutions which depend upon a closer relationship with Europe.

As I told Sky News on Wednesday, you can’t have a discussion about the country’s economy, or its defence, or immigration, without mentioning Brexit.

We have cut ourselves off from our principal market, our most important partners, and that is the underlying crisis that faces this country.

It’s terrifying to me that while the public opinion is moving and the younger generation is frustrated, the two major parties think they can go through 6 weeks of campaigning and not have anything to say about it.

At the European Movement, our job is to call out this hypocrisy. We’re here to make a nuisance, to upset the apple cart and say the (apparently) unsayable - that we would be better off back in Europe.

Over the next 6 weeks, and beyond, we shall be single-minded in this purpose.”