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05 Aug 25 - 07:27 AM (#4226763) Subject: Origins: Irish Faction songs From: GUEST,Julia L I have run across the term "faction songs" in several different contexts mostly referring to pre-20th century Irish conflict. Is there a difference between "faction songs" and "rebel songs"? There also seems to be a connection with "shillelagh law" as ritual combat between clans. Can anyone provide clarity? thanks |
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05 Aug 25 - 08:14 AM (#4226765) Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Faction songs From: mayomick Irish faction fights here: https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Folklife-Collections/Folklife-Collections-List-(1)/Other/History-of-policing-i |
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05 Aug 25 - 08:21 AM (#4226766) Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Faction songs From: Robert B. Waltz By no means are all songs about Irish factions rebel songs! There are many, many loyal songs, or Orange songs. Indeed, there are books on the subject: - Neil Graham's The Orange Songster - The Orange Lark I don't have a keyword for Orange songs in the Ballad Index (a regrettable mistake), so I can't pull a complete list, but some that spring to mind are Derry Walls Away A Loyal Song Against Home Rule No Surrender (I) No Surrender (II) And a whole bunch of Boyne songs. "Green" songs were certainly more popular than "Orange" songs, but I'm far from certain they were more numerous. So a faction song might be Green or Orange; it simply took a side on the issue of Irish independence. |
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05 Aug 25 - 08:23 AM (#4226767) Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Faction songs From: mayomick The Irish National Museum link on Irish factions doesnt work so I copied and pasted the article:. These are what the factions songs would be about THe 18th and 19th century Irish phenomenon known as the faction fight was essentially a mass brawl that involved hundreds and sometimes thousands of antagonists organised into groups and meeting at designated venues and dates such as fairs, markets, funerals, race meetings, patterns (parish patron days) or any other large gathering. The result was often the deaths of one or more of the participants, and always maiming and injury. Factions were almost exclusively based around clans, parishes or geographical area. The tradition of fighting was enthusiastically instilled in the next generation so that rivalries festered and grew. The phenomenon was most prevalent in the province of Munster and more especially in County Tipperary and always remained a rural practise. The illegal and uncontrollable nature of the mass brawls meant all kinds of weapons were used. The rural landscape provided an ample supply of stones for throwing. Women carried stones in their aprons for the men to hurl. Guns of all descriptions were also used when available (Fig.1). Loaded butts and wattles were simple sticks weighted at one end to cause maximum injury. By the 18th century, the Irish had developed their own art of stick fighting known in the Irish language as bataireach. Bataireach and stick fighting in general became increasingly associated with faction fights. Despite heightened religious tension at the turn of the nineteenth century, religion was not seen as a major factor in encouraging faction fighting. Reasons for fighting ranged from a want to display a family’s strength to the more sinister agenda-driven involvement of illegal secret societies. Most of the faction quarrels had their origins in trivial beginnings perhaps going back several generations, which has led some commentators to conclude that the fights were basically recreational. Long hostilities between the Bootashees (O’Briens) and Tubbers (Hogans) are said to have resulted from a fight over a game of marbles between two small boys, an O’Brien and a Hogan, in 1794 while two armed factions spoiling for a fight in Killeavy, County Down in 1835 clashed over an attempt by one faction to extinguish a bonfire started by the other. In fact, so slight were the reasons behind some grudges that it was not unusual for members of hostile factions to live and work together in peace and harmony all the year round except for the days when the factions mustered to fight. The response of the local authorities to faction fights was to observe rather than intervene unless “the better class elements of the neighbourhood” were threatened. Faction fights were rarely disciplined affairs and initial taunting could quickly escalate to all out murder. A fight between the Lalors and the Coleens at the racecourse of Ballyeagh strand, County Kerry in 1834 resulted in the deaths by stoning and drowning of 35 people. The Lalor faction had numbered 1,200 strong to the Coleens’ 600. Police did make arrests when the fighting had run its course. By 1839, it was reported that faction fighting had virtually ceased. |
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05 Aug 25 - 08:37 AM (#4226768) Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Faction songs From: GUEST,Julia L This is extremely interesting esp in light of Maine's history of the early Scots-Irish settlers and our coastal rivalries between fishing families. "The Lobster Gangs of Maine" is a good book on the subject. A good percentage of the traditional songs collected here in Maine are Scots-Irish and an interview with an elderly resident of one of the islands revealed that certain songs and dance tunes were played and sung exclusively on individual islands...one woman was forbidden by her grandfather to sing "faction songs". |
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05 Aug 25 - 12:18 PM (#4226777) Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Faction songs From: mayomick Probably a faction fight march according to P.W. Joyce. The Shanavest and Caravat The Shanavests wore traditional vests, the Caravats cravats , presumably . https://tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:Shanavest_and_Caravat_(1) |