How many verses before losing interest?

03 Sep 25 - 07:57 PM (#4228008)
Subject: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Sol

Generally speaking, how long do you maintain interest in a song in terms of numbers of verses? Normally, after six verses, you're likely to lose me soon unless, it's something REALLY special.

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03 Sep 25 - 08:14 PM (#4228009)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Helen

Funny! In a group of musical friends some decades ago, one man used to sing the song called "It Takes a Worried Man". To me it was just endless. A couple of times I would sing this verse when he had (finally) finished:

The song that I sing is 21 verses long,
The song that I sing is 21 verses long,
The song that I sing is 21 verses long,
But I don't care 'cos I sing it all day long.

(Lucky for me he has a sense of humour - or maybe just a forgiving nature.)

A quick internet search shows it only has 6 verses but 5 choruses as well, so 11 in total. For me, a song with a repetitive melody drives me nuts anyway - don't speak to me about Barbara Ellen! :-( so when it goes on and on as well, I just can't take it.

People reciting what is known in Oz as bush verse used to make me leave the room.

Da-da da-da da Duh (upward inflection)
Da-da da-da da Darr (downward inflection)
Da-da da-da da Duh (upward inflection)
Da-da da-da da Darr (downward inflection)

Repeated ad nauseum.

(Have you regretted asking this question now? LOL

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03 Sep 25 - 08:18 PM (#4228010)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Joe Offer

For chorus songs, four to six verses can hold my attention. For ballads, I can handle a dozen verses, more if the singer is extraordinary.

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03 Sep 25 - 08:55 PM (#4228012)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Robert B. Waltz

Joe Offer wrote: For chorus songs, four to six verses can hold my attention. For ballads, I can handle a dozen verses, more if the singer is extraordinary.

The place where I am matters -- it's a lot easier to listen intently in a concert setting than to a recording. But I generally agree with Joe: a song in which something is actively happening can last a lot longer than one with no real action. If the action is sufficiently straightforward (so that there are no distracting sub-plots), and the tune is good enough that it doesn't get monotonous, a ten or fifteen minute song (i.e. one of several dozen verses) is OK.

It's important that there not be sub-plots or waste verses, though, because anything that makes you forget where you are in the song will ruin it.

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03 Sep 25 - 10:06 PM (#4228014)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GerryM

A hundred bottles of beer on the wall!
A hundred bottles of beer!
If one of those bottles should happen to fall,
Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall!

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03 Sep 25 - 10:06 PM (#4228015)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: pattyClink

It really depends on how long each verse is. A quick couple of lines and a brisk chorus, go for a dozen. If each verses is 10 lines long and the chorus has 3 parts, for the love of God, stop at 4.

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04 Sep 25 - 03:18 AM (#4228018)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: FreddyHeadey

;)
There's no number.

How long are the verses ?
How slowly is it being sung ?
Is there a good plot ?
Is the chorus so long that I've forgotten what happened last ?
Is there a chorus after EVERY verse ?
Is it being sung clearly enough that understand what's going on ?

Done well a five minute song can pass in an instant.
Not done well a two minute song can feel interminable.
;)

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04 Sep 25 - 03:53 AM (#4228020)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Jerry

I think that sums it up well, especially whether if it’s an engaging story. No one tends to moan about Matty Groves sung in its entirety, but might do if it was condensed into half a dozen pithy verses.
With some songs though, you have to tailor the song to the audience reception - if they are clearly enjoying it, go for another chorus or even a repeat verse, but if they are getting a bit restless, trim the odd verse, chorus, or instrumental verse, and end on a high. Leave them wanting more was the old adage.

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04 Sep 25 - 10:38 AM (#4228040)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,gillymor

If it's a good story, a good melody and a great singer like Marty Robbins singing Big Iron or El Paso I can listen til the cows come home. Same for the great old ballads like The House Carpenter, Lily of the West, Silver Dagger etc., as long as they're performed by a good singer.

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04 Sep 25 - 10:56 AM (#4228043)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Jerry

I certainly agree, but surely Silver Dagger has only 4 verses, and Lily about 5. Pedantic, I know…

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04 Sep 25 - 11:06 AM (#4228046)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Paul Burke

No good me singing here then. I wrote a song about a local historical tragedy, 11 verses long ( one repeated). I thought it was a bit too long, but couldn't see what to cut. Then a couple of years ago I went to a songwriting workshop, the host used one of her songs as an example of her writing process. It was even longer than mine.

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04 Sep 25 - 01:17 PM (#4228054)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Helen

One of the issues I am thinking about, following this excellent analysis here, is that when the Oz bush poetry was being recited - especially by one particular man who was neither a poet nor a singer - he never varied from his loud, non-melodic repetition of the pairs of lines. He did not use nuance, or feeling to reflect the story of each line or verse and he did not change the "melody" of each line. It was one long repetitive and brash assault on my ears.

It reminds me of the scenes in that very old TV show from the 1960's called The Prisoner where Patrick McGoohan was sitting in his cell and some terribly boring repetitive and loud music (or maybe even muzak i.e. lift music) was being played non-stop and he couldn't get away from it. He was being tortured by the repetitive sound.

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04 Sep 25 - 01:23 PM (#4228055)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Sol

Some excellent points made above and I will concede that some songs can hold their own with regards multiple verses. However, only if the verses have NO FAT and they tell a good story.

My biggest cringe is for songs written around a countdown or count-up.
e.g. Ten Green Bottles, 12 Days Of Christmas, One Man Went To Mow, The Bog Down In The Valley-o, etc.

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04 Sep 25 - 02:04 PM (#4228056)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Helen

Yes, I agree Sol. As an antidote try listening to this very clever version of 12 Days of Christmas, Irish Style by Frank Kelly

Now that's how poetry should be recited! IMHO. :-D

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04 Sep 25 - 05:43 PM (#4228065)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Grishka

Good poetry can take as many verses as it takes, not one more, not one less. A good performance with varied tone can help to some extent, but may not even be necessary. A "billy" on the fire and a true-blue Aussie reciting "powertray" from days of yore, what could be finer to fill the bloody long time till the tea is ready? Bruce, do "McDougall" again!

Songwriters nowadays should make sure the tune carries through. Best make use of bridges, variations and other devices that make the music more exciting. If you have something to say, people will listen.

The "12 Days of Christmas" can still serve as a model, and are rightly popular in spite of their somewhat absurd lyrics – or because of them.

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04 Sep 25 - 11:15 PM (#4228067)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Julia L

We have a field recording of a man from northern Maine singing the Factor's Song. It's 37 minutes / 53 verses (no choruses) and totally riveting. Fred has held an audience's attention with 21 verses of and an epic ballad. It really depends on the story and the singer. A good Seanachie can keep people engaged as they spin the tale.

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05 Sep 25 - 04:23 AM (#4228071)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Hagman

I'm reasonably happy by the time the last bars of Beethoven's Ninth recede (circa. 70 mins or so.)

Does it really matter how long something is? A song takes as long as it takes - if the listener can't keep up, is that the song's/singer's fault?

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05 Sep 25 - 04:41 AM (#4228072)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps

IMHO "Sally Gardens" is the perfect song - 2 verses only, and a great tune! If the audience really likes it, you can always sing it again!

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05 Sep 25 - 07:27 AM (#4228076)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: The Sandman

It depends on the singer, and whether the tune has a good melody. recently i visited a singers night in the uk.
at least six singer songwriters who had no idea about how to write a good melody[ bring back tom paxton] whose diction was only middling whose voices could not be heard over their guitars.
how are we to judge a song if the words are sung without projection, and the tune is boring, and the song is sung like a shopping list, i thought those wannabe dylan imitators had disappeaerd in 1969, unfortunately not

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05 Sep 25 - 09:08 AM (#4228083)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: The Sandman

Here is an example of a song that is poorly written, and when Dylan recorded it was sung badly. i lost interest after the first line , complete drivel
Lyrics
I once loved a girl, her skin, it was bronze
With the innocence of a lamb, she was gentle like a fawn
I courted her proudly, but now she is gone
Gone as the season she's taken
In a young summer's youth I stole her away
From her mother and sister, though close did they stay
Each one of them suffering from the failures of their day
With strings of guilt they tried hard to guide us
Of the two sisters, I loved the young
With sensitive instincts, she was the creative one
The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone
By the jealousy of others around her
For her parasite sister I had no respect
Bound by her boredom, her pride to protect
Countless visions of the other she'd reflect
As a crutch for her scenes and her society
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused
The changes I was going through can't even be used
For the lies that I told her in hope not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime
With unseen consciousness, I possessed in my grip
A magnificent mantelpiece, though its heart being chipped
Noticing not that I'd already slipped
To the sin of love's false security
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
Till the tombstones of damage read no questions but
"Please, what's wrong? What's exactly the matter?"
And so it did happen like it could have been foreseen
The timeless explosion of fantasy's dream
At the peak of the night, the king and the queen
Tumbled all down into pieces
"The tragic figure" her sister did shout
"Leave her alone, God damn you, get out"
And I, in my armor, turning about
And nailing her in the ruins of her pettiness
Beneath a bare light bulb, the plaster did pound
Her sister and I in a screaming battleground
And she in between, the victim of sound
Soon shattered as a child to the shadows
All is gone, all is gone, admit it, take flight
I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight
My mind, it was mangled, I ran into the night
Leaving all of love's ashes behind me
The wind knocks my window, the room it is wet
The words to say I'm sorry I haven't found yet
I think of her often and hope whoever she's met
Will be fully aware of how precious she is
Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"

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05 Sep 25 - 01:48 PM (#4228106)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Helen

To put my two examples in context, neither the singer of It Takes a Worried Man, nor the reciter (bellower) of the Oz bush poem were stage performers. The singer used to be a member of our group of friends who have been gathering to play music for over 40 years. He never performed in front of the larger folk club or on stage, as far as I know.

The reciter of the poem was at the folk club but it was a call from the floor so those instances were the only time he recited poetry. He bellowed it with no sense of the content or emotions of the poem and no sense of the nuances of sound which could have expressed the poem as it was intended by the poet. There is a melody to a well-recited poem, even though it is spoken and not sung.

I agree with your comments, The Sandman 05 Sep 25 - 07:27 AM.

I have been bemoaning "these young pop song writers" (I'm getting old!) who do not know how to write a melody and just repeat the same boring line over and over and the same boring melodic lines. Examples for me are Watermelon Sugar by Harry Styles, and a song called Confidence by Ocean Alley. Both are played over the PA as background music at a place where I sometimes go for lunch. I had to actually ask one of the staff what the lyrics were in each song because I could barely decipher them, partially due to the background noises but also because of the poor diction of the singers.

Another song I have heard there which does work well for me is Hurtless by Dean Lewis. He has a story to tell, he has a good melody, good expression and diction, good singing and melodic abilities, and he conveys the emotion well. I don't know any of his other songs and I probably won't go out and buy his album but he performs that song well, in my opinion.

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05 Sep 25 - 05:54 PM (#4228120)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GerryM

I never warmed to the Dylan song Sandman quoted at length, but I do like the last stanza (and not just because it means the song is almost over):

Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"

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06 Sep 25 - 12:04 PM (#4228146)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Tattie Bogle

So how do people get on with the very long traditional ballads that can have upwards of 30 verses? In Scotland, we call them “The Muckle Sangs”, but there are others within the English, Irish and Welsh canons. They are much loved and revered by a good number of people and often feature in the various traditional singing festivals, much of the the singing being a Capella, so no middle eights, instrumental breaks, etc.
Do people really follow the lengthy story, or are they just hanging on for the next chorus or refrain when they get a chance to sing a few words themselves? I can admit to having lost the will to live during some of them, but as others have said, that may have more to do with the delivery and how well the singer puts the song across.
But I am full of admiration for those who can learn such long songs, and keep us rapt while they do!

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06 Sep 25 - 12:56 PM (#4228150)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: The Sandman

Occasionally one has to hear a long ballad a few times to appreciate it, particularly if the first performance has been mediocre, the same applies to poor diction and interpretation performances by singer song writers, however many of the latter do not have good melodies, most of the traditional ballads have tunes that are interesting and have stood the test of time.

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06 Sep 25 - 01:41 PM (#4228154)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Robert B. Waltz

Tattie Bogle wrote: So how do people get on with the very long traditional ballads that can have upwards of 30 verses? In Scotland, we call them “The Muckle Sangs”, but there are others within the English, Irish and Welsh canons. They are much loved and revered by a good number of people and often feature in the various traditional singing festivals, much of the the singing being a Capella, so no middle eights, instrumental breaks, etc.
Do people really follow the lengthy story, or are they just hanging on for the next chorus or refrain when they get a chance to sing a few words themselves?

Again, it depends on the singer and the song. People can listen to very long pieces and appreciate them -- remember, the Iliad and the Odyssey were originally oral! I do find it helpful, if one is going to sing a long ballad, to sketch what it's about in advance, to help follow along. And, as I said above, the plot really needs to be fairly linear; if one has to follow side plots, it's too easy to get lost.

And the performance has to be good. I actually think that instrumentation helps in a lot of cases, though it can hurt in others. For one thing, it can cover up when the singer loses the thread of the song. :-) But the singer must be able to give the song a good performance.

I really and truly think that's the key. It's not the song itself (assuming it is coherent); it is the singer. A short song can survive a bad performer; a long one cannot.

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06 Sep 25 - 03:10 PM (#4228156)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Greg

I believe this ought to be called "The Barley Mow Index."

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06 Sep 25 - 05:19 PM (#4228165)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: The Sandman

A short song can survive a bad performer; a long one cannot.quote
not necessarily.
Martin Carthy said, and i may be quoting out of context. The only damage you can do to a song is not to sing it.
I think what he meant is in relation to traditional songs, was, that the song will survive bad performance.
my opinion is that a long song and a short song can survive bad performance, dependent of the quality of lyrics and tune. regardless of length .
what Robert Waltz said IS UNPROVEN it all depends on the factors i mentioned

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06 Sep 25 - 06:11 PM (#4228168)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Helen

One of the important points about Oz bush poetry is that two of our best poets, Henry Lawson and Andrew "Banjo" Paterson were excellent story tellers. Their poems were designed to maintain interest to the end, and then a lot of them were put to music and became well-known songs.

The Songs of Henry Lawson compiled by Chris Kempster.

Top 10 iconic Banjo Paterson bush ballads

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06 Sep 25 - 06:54 PM (#4228170)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Joe Offer

Tattie Bogle on Ballads: "I can admit to having lost the will to live during some of them."

I live in awe of people who can turn a phrase like that...

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06 Sep 25 - 10:11 PM (#4228174)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: JennieG

A facebook page that I follow is 'Grandiloquent Word of the Day'....and a few minutes ago this word popped up:

"Cantabank - a second-rate ballad singer".

Seems appropriate to this discussion, somehow.

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07 Sep 25 - 02:20 AM (#4228178)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Jerry

Going back to the that Dylan song (Ballad in Plain D), yes it is over long, and too personal to him to be engaging enough for the rest of us. But surely it’s just one of his early parody songs, being based on the traditional The False Bride, which again is not that great lyrically.
The “chains of the skyway” verse is an updating of the ordinal’s “how many ships sail in the forest?”. Apart from Sandy Denny, didn’t the Oyster Band do a version called I Once Loved a Lass?

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07 Sep 25 - 08:59 AM (#4228187)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Acorn4

Heard the one about the 42 verse murder ballad?

Usual warning:-

Sexual references, threats of violence, violent behaviour:-

Not sure if anyone has ever listened to the end?

The Ballad of Norman Thorne

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07 Sep 25 - 01:51 PM (#4228210)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson

A very interesting thread. I think it is for sound reasons that a good number of clubs and open mics in my part of the UK promote 2 song spots in 10 mins slots and, less commonly, 3 song spots in 15 mins slots. I know that being able to carry a long song depends very much on the situation, the song itself and the skill of the performer but when songs
go well over 5 mins, it can show a lack of courtesy to others present.

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07 Sep 25 - 02:38 PM (#4228217)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: StephenH

I have just begun to read Elijah Wald's latest book "Jelly Roll Blues: Censored Songs & Hidden Histories." He begins by talking about a recording Jelly Roll Morton did for the Library of Congress in 1938: "The beginning of the song was not preserved, but what remains lasts at least half an hour, filling seven sides of four 78-rpm discs."
Even with Jelly Roll's marvelous piano playing, I'm not sure that I would last that long.
On the other hand, Martin Carthy's 11-minute "Famous Flower of Serving Men" seems not a minute too long to me and hearing say, Mike Waterson, sing "Tamlyn" for over ten minutes is not a chore either.
So, definitely depends on who is singing.

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07 Sep 25 - 02:53 PM (#4228221)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: The Sandman

The ballad of Norman Thorne,in my opinion, the singer is being forced to sing to the accompaniment, whch means he is not interpreting the story IN MY OPINION not very well. IT IS THE FAULT OF THE SINGER AND THE WAY THE SONG IS WRITTEN

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07 Sep 25 - 05:14 PM (#4228230)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Helen

The Sandman, would you mind not SHOUTING at us please? Thanks.

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07 Sep 25 - 07:52 PM (#4228237)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Robert B. Waltz

Just a thought on this thread, concerning a song it is likely almost everyone here knows.

Does Don McLean's "American Pie" keep your interest? It is, after all, about eight minutes long. And I defy anyone to say they understood what it was about on first hearing. Yes, it has now been largely decoded -- but it took many minds and much research to do it. When first released, it was mostly incomprehensible. Yet it's still being played on the radio, at least occasionally.

It hints at the power of the chorus, or perhaps just the tune of the chorus.

For those who ask, I will freely admit that I got lost in it until I saw the DT notes on it.

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08 Sep 25 - 02:15 AM (#4228240)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Luku

No, American Pie"does not keep my interes,
Neither does this
Well
You know you make me wanna shout
Look, my hand's jumping (shout)
Look, my heart's bumping (shout)
Throw my head back (shout)
Come on now (shout)
Don't forget to say you will (shout)
Yeah, don't forget to shout (shout)
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah (shout)
Say you will, throw your head back, baby
(Say you will) come on, come on
(Say you will) throw your head back, ooh
(Say you will) come on, now
say that you love me
(Say) say that you need me
(Say) say that you want me
(Say) ain't gonna grieve me
come on, now
(Say) come on, now
(Say) come on, now (say)
I still remember
When I used to be nine years old
Yeah yeah
How I was over you
From the bottom of my soul
Yeah yeah
Now that's old enough
Enough to know
You wanna meet me
You wanna love me so
I want you to know
I said I want you to know right now
You've been good to me, baby
Better than I've been to myself, yeah yeah
And if you ever leave me
I don't want nobody else, yeah yeah
Because I want you to know, know
I said I want you to know right now
You know you make me wanna shout
Woo shout
Woo shout
Woo shout
Woo shout
Alright (shout)
Alright (shout)
Alright (shout)
Take it easy (shout)
Take it easy (shout)
Take it easy (shout)
Alright (shout)
Alright (shout)
Alright (shout)
Hey hey hey hey (Hey hey hey hey)
Hey hey hey hey (Hey hey hey hey)
Hey hey hey hey (Hey hey hey hey)
Hey hey hey hey (Hey hey hey hey)
Shout now, jump up and shout now
Everybody shout now, everybody shout now
Everybody shout shout shout shout shout shout
Ahh, shout shout shout shout shout shout
Ohh, shout shout shout shout shout
Ahh, shout shout shout shout shout shout
Ahh ,shout
Well, I feel alright

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08 Sep 25 - 09:09 AM (#4228248)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GerryM

The American Pie "Program Notes" in the DT were taken, without credit, from The Annotated American Pie, compiled by Rich Kulawiec and available at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/american-pie/

I am one of the dozens of contributors credited at the end of Kulawiec's work. I don't remember what my contribution was, but I'm sure it was very small.

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08 Sep 25 - 12:04 PM (#4228253)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Robert B. Waltz

GerryM wrote: The American Pie "Program Notes" in the DT were taken, without credit, from The Annotated American Pie,

Thank you for your contribution, even if small, and three hisses for whoever lifted the notes.

But my example was offered to try to get people thinking about an actual case. An eight minute song can get you, depending on pace, between about sixteen and sixty (yes, sixty!) ballad stanzas. I submit that even the shorter end of that range would be considered a long song. :-)

I doubt "American Pie" would survive well in oral tradition, just because no one would understand it. But it was assuredly popular, and enduringly so, as witness the fact that a few years ago, I was hearing it played in the local grocery store!

So there must be some sort of market for long songs, even if they are hard to understand.

Me, I'd rather have a long song I understand. :-) But perhaps there is more to this than most of us think.

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08 Sep 25 - 01:58 PM (#4228256)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: MaJoC the Filk

I'll see your American Pie, and raise you (the Woodstock version of) Alice's Restaurant.

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08 Sep 25 - 02:10 PM (#4228257)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: MaJoC the Filk

*Argh*: I had 42, and I missed. I'll have to surrender my towel.

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08 Sep 25 - 08:27 PM (#4228278)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: Jack Campin

Lord Soulis

270 lines but the payoff is when he gets boiled in lead, which doesn't happen every nght in a folk club.

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09 Sep 25 - 04:27 AM (#4228289)
Subject: RE: How many verses before losing interest?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson

More's the pity! I can lose interest before a song even starts. Think of those occasions at singarounds when people have to be persuaded to sing or when members of the "little black book brigade" flick endlessly through pages before deciding what to offer.

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