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16 Dec 25 - 11:28 AM (#4233051) Subject: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome Just reflecting on one of my favourite songs (my phone's default ringtone) - Parisienne Walkways by Gary Moore. I always described the opening as a riff because it is repeated 2 or 3 times during the song but I am not so sure now. Maybe too long for a riff. Maybe it's a lick. I am no real musician so can someone tell me how to spot the difference? And, yes, I know Google will but I like real people more :-D |
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16 Dec 25 - 02:36 PM (#4233068) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Ah, Dave, but is it a hook? |
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16 Dec 25 - 05:04 PM (#4233074) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,The Sandman What matters is how the music is played, not names |
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16 Dec 25 - 05:13 PM (#4233075) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,AI OVERVIEW The Sandman riff is a main, repeated musical phrase that often defines a song (like "Smoke on the Water"), forming its backbone, while a lick is a shorter, more decorative melodic phrase or "nugget" of notes, often improvised within solos or as fills, that can be moved between songs. Think of a riff as the essential furniture of a room, and licks as decorative pillows you can swap out; licks build solos, while riffs are the song's recognizable theme |
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16 Dec 25 - 05:30 PM (#4233078) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Stilly River Sage Who cares about an AI overview? Stick with the human brain, please. |
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16 Dec 25 - 06:18 PM (#4233079) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I would say that I consider a riff to be a distinctive feature of a particular song or tune that will alway call that song or tune to mind. I would say that a lick is a feature that may be found lurking in multiple tunes or songs and is re-used as needed where appropriate. Robin (no AI consulted). |
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17 Dec 25 - 04:15 AM (#4233091) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome Thanks Robin. With thar description I would definitely consider the opening of Parisienne Walkways to be a riff then. Steve, stop confusing me even more :-D |
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17 Dec 25 - 06:16 AM (#4233096) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor In jazz parlance I think that opening would be considered a "head", it sounds kind of long to be a riff. |
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17 Dec 25 - 06:32 AM (#4233097) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Johnny J When it is a "raff"? ;-) |
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17 Dec 25 - 07:47 AM (#4233103) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Sol If a song was a tree .... The riff = the bough The lyrics = the branches The licks = the leaves Feel free to disagree ;-) |
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17 Dec 25 - 09:36 AM (#4233107) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome I like that, Sol :-) Where does the tune fit in? Trunk or roots? |
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17 Dec 25 - 11:21 AM (#4233112) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: clueless don How about a "phrase"? I remember reading that John Lennon described the opening guitar part of "I Feel Fine" as a "figure". |
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17 Dec 25 - 06:36 PM (#4233129) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Sol "DTG -I like that, Sol :-) Where does the tune fit in? Trunk or roots?" Good point! I guess it's integral with the lyrics. |
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17 Dec 25 - 06:37 PM (#4233130) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Sol ps ... and or the bough. Take your pick. |
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17 Dec 25 - 07:01 PM (#4233133) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome Don - Am I misremembering or the opening to "I feel fine" a long note which distorts part way through? |
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18 Dec 25 - 04:19 AM (#4233145) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome What direct risks does AI pose to the climate and environment? Now, can we just get on with the subject? And as per my opening post I would prefer answers from real people rather than a cut and paste from either AI or a seaech engine. Thank you. |
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18 Dec 25 - 05:55 AM (#4233147) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw My favourite kind of riff is a well-presented midriff, preferably on display in summer... But seriously, arguably the most iconic riff in rock music is the one that insistently drives "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" by the Stones. By the way, wiki also describes it as a hook. The long feedback note at the start of "I Feel Fine" was initially an accident caused by Lennon getting his guitar too upclose and personal with an amplifier, whereafter George Martin suggested incorporating it in the song. The guitar passage following it is a great example of a riff. |
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18 Dec 25 - 06:51 AM (#4233150) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome I can play the "Smoke on the Water" riff on my anglo concertina :-) |
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18 Dec 25 - 07:08 AM (#4233153) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor This thread made me think about this ditty by Martin Mull- Licks off of Records |
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18 Dec 25 - 09:41 AM (#4233163) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Dave the Gnome Doesn't open for me gillymor. Just says "video not available" |
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18 Dec 25 - 10:01 AM (#4233164) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor It works for me, Dave, maybe it's a regional thing. I'll try again on another device- Licks off of Records- Martin Mull and with Glen Campbell |
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18 Dec 25 - 07:07 PM (#4233173) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,.gargoyle A delightful, fun, informative Thread. Sincerely, Gargoyle Thank You. |
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19 Dec 25 - 07:12 AM (#4233185) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Jerry To my mind, a riff is a short repeated motif, often used in the introduction, but usually of no direct relation to the melody line. The melody, or chord sequence, is typically used to form a break or instrumental verse, whereas the riff is just a hook or filler, acting as an ear worm and therefore not usually used in folk music. |
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19 Dec 25 - 10:23 AM (#4233190) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Ed I don't think there's an exact definition of the term, and views will vary. I'd agree with Jerry on the "short repeated motif, often used in the introduction" view but not the "of no direct relation to the melody line" aspect. Many riffs are the initial melody line. Personally, I think the guitar line in "Parisienne Walkways" is too long to be described as a riff. I'd probably call it a 'theme'. Dave, you may find this BBC Four documentary from 2014 of interest. It contains numerous thoughts on the meaning: The Joy of the Guitar Riff |
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19 Dec 25 - 03:08 PM (#4233201) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw If you listen to the Carnival Band's version of The Holly and the Ivy on the album Tapestry of Carols, there's a tiny bit of a tune between all the verses played on recorder (I think!) that I would call a riff. The track is acoustic, it's played on replica medieval instruments, it's sung absolutely beautifully by Maddy Prior and I would call it folk music! |
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19 Dec 25 - 06:25 PM (#4233213) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Jerry I see what you mean, Steve, but we’ve tended to play a few bars of the melody in between verses of carols too this week, and would not really regard those as riffs. The guitar intro to the likes of Layla, Money for Nothing, etc are famous riffs, but are not fragments of the melody so much as a few enticing notes in the same key and rhythm. With some like The Last Time and the Byrds’ Mr Tambourine Man, the riff is based on the same chords as the melody, so arguably is a harmony line. |
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19 Dec 25 - 08:18 PM (#4233214) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw I get that, but the little bit of music between the verses in the example I gave are not a few bars of the melody - that snippet of music is completely different to the main tune of the carol. When we sing that carol at home that bit is simply not there. In the Carnival Band version, that fragment is a deliberate part of their arrangement. When I think of it, and especially when I think of emulating their version with my band (which may never happen!), I regard that little segment as a riff, as it's repeated insistently through the song (occasionally varied, admittedly). Anyway, riff or not, it's a lovely version and it's one of my Christmas favourites! |
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20 Dec 25 - 12:48 AM (#4233217) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman The last four bars or two bars of a tune is not a Riff. |
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20 Dec 25 - 02:06 AM (#4233220) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman "This thread made me think about this ditty by Martin Mull- Licks off of Records" video not available |
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20 Dec 25 - 04:42 AM (#4233221) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Jerry Sorry Steve, I misread your earlier post; I thought you said “a tiny fragment of the tune…” not of a tune. Even so, I’d call that a filler, in the same way blues and also bluegrass players will fill the gaps between the vocal lines with a twiddly bit. I guess though if it’s identical every time, then it tends to become the equivalent of a riff. |
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20 Dec 25 - 05:08 AM (#4233222) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman Bluegrass banjo is based on using finger rolls, They often do not understand the musical value of silences, Scruggs is a prime example, these finger rolls are in fact finger patterns, but still not what I would call a riff. A good example of a riff is Bill Wymans[ aka Bill Perks] intro to Satisfaction |
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20 Dec 25 - 07:57 AM (#4233227) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor Keith Richards played the Satisfaction riff on an electric guitar through a fuzz box, you can hear it click on and off if you listen to it closely. Bill Wyman, no -s on the end, played bass. |
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20 Dec 25 - 08:27 AM (#4233228) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Johnny J I was thinking that myself BUT I've just listened to the intro. The bass is actually very much to the fore as well. Even more noticeable with a decent "system". https://youtu.be/nrIPxlFzDi0?list=RDnrIPxlFzDi0 I'm not sure if that's what Dick was meaning? It's true that most of us just think of the lead guitar dominating until we listen more closely. |
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20 Dec 25 - 08:31 AM (#4233229) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor Every guitar jockey knows that Keith is playing the riff, Wyman is playing an interesting counterpoint on bass. |
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20 Dec 25 - 09:31 AM (#4233232) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw I have already mentioned "....Satisfaction", Dick. Maybe you missed it. Gillymor, the problem was that Dick omitted an apostrophe in Bill's surname. Our band does a number of songs with little breaks between all the verses - Country Life, Last Thing On My Mind, I'll Tell Me Ma, to pluck a few off the top of my head. They might be identical every time but that could be due to either our lack of imagination or our fear of clashing if we go all maverick on each other! Anyway, I like "filler"! |
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20 Dec 25 - 09:36 AM (#4233233) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor Right, apologies. |
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20 Dec 25 - 11:38 AM (#4233240) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman gilly mor, the riff was originally, arguably, the composition of Bill, regardless who played it on the recording Bill Wyman played a crucial, foundational bassline on The Rolling Stones' "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction," a riff he felt was as important as Keith Richards' guitar hook, though he didn't receive songwriting credit, highlighting his subtle but vital rhythmic contribution that drove the iconic track's groove |
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20 Dec 25 - 12:01 PM (#4233241) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor I agree, Keith played the riff. |
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20 Dec 25 - 01:58 PM (#4233242) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman They might be identical every time! quote Steve Shaw , you are right if they are identical ewery time, that is due to lack of thought, ABOUT how the riff is played which was one of my earlier points, even if the notes are the same ,they should be played with different emphasis or dynamics, that is partly what makes better musician ship. it is not what it is called that matters, but how its played, do you think Richards or Wyman worried about what it was called? |
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20 Dec 25 - 04:16 PM (#4233246) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman The above post is a general observation, not aimed at anyone in particular |
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20 Dec 25 - 09:22 PM (#4233263) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Quite frankly, Dick, you're waffling. Getting all theoretical about a band you've never heard. We practise a lot, we decide what's best for us to do, and there is most decidedly "no lack of thought." |
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21 Dec 25 - 01:29 AM (#4233267) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman The above post is a general observation, not aimed at anyone in particular |
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21 Dec 25 - 01:33 AM (#4233269) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman i have heard you play, and you are a good harmonica player. |
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21 Dec 25 - 03:06 AM (#4233275) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Very grapefruit of you! |
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21 Dec 25 - 06:20 AM (#4233283) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: mayomick so long as you note the fact that you are using AI, feel free to ignore the Aiphobes |
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21 Dec 25 - 08:16 AM (#4233289) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw You can have riffs in classical music too, though aficionados of such music might prefer to call them motifs, ostinatos or summat else. I'd say that the first part of the Bolero tune is a classic example, and there's a good one in the Hall Of The Mountain King. The opening theme of Beethoven's Fifth and the Ode to Joy are other possible examples if you'd care to stretch the point slightly... |
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23 Dec 25 - 02:41 AM (#4233377) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman Very dangerous to stretch points on Mudcat, the Pedant Police might throw you in a poisoned pool of Pettifoggers |
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23 Dec 25 - 05:56 AM (#4233384) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor It's not dangerous but it is bewildering as to why someone would just make up stuff and post it here. |
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23 Dec 25 - 09:08 AM (#4233392) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,johnmc If I remember, Keith tells how the riff came to him during the night and he managed to get it onto a portable tape recorder before going back to sleep. No one is, of course, underestimating the bass's contribution. One equally memorable riff would be "Money for Nothing"; also, "Jumpin' Jack Flash". As for folk music, maybe "La Bamba" (if regarded as such). |
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23 Dec 25 - 09:14 AM (#4233393) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor From Jimi Hendrix- Purple Haze, Foxey Lady, Voodoo Child... |
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23 Dec 25 - 02:28 PM (#4233405) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: Mr Red Nobody mentioned the chorus. In Contra & Irish Set dancing they often refer to verse & chorus. But no riff or raff. |
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23 Dec 25 - 04:12 PM (#4233406) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Steve Shaw The opening of Day Tripper. |
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23 Dec 25 - 05:19 PM (#4233412) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor Paperback Writer Some famous Country Music riffs- Mama Tried by Merle Haggard (Roy Nichols gtr.) Honky Tonk Man by Johnny Horton (? gtr.) Big River by Johnny Cash (Luther Perkins gtr.) |
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23 Dec 25 - 05:33 PM (#4233414) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor ... and that opening riff of Oh Well by Fleetwood Mac from the Peter Green era. Maybe the heaviest one ever. Gary Moore wound up with Green's Les Paul as his main ax for quite awhile. |
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24 Dec 25 - 01:32 AM (#4233431) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: PHJim I think of a riff as a repeated phrase that can be used over more than one set of chord changes. Sometimes the final note will vary. I have a bunch of four bar riffs that I use three times for a 12-bar blues. |
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31 Dec 25 - 11:11 AM (#4233622) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: MaJoC the Filk Sigh: you've driven me tpo the dictionary, folks ....
As it happens, I use the first computer-sorted Collins's (© 1979) with the interesting mistakes still present, so pinches of salt may be in order. |
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31 Dec 25 - 12:56 PM (#4233629) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: DaveRo The current online Merriam Webster gives 4 definitions for riff as a noun. So 45 years and the Atlantic Ocean does make a difference. The relevant one is similar but different: an ostinato phrase (as in jazz) typically supporting a solo improvisation[There was an interesting piece in the New Yorker recently: Is the Dictionary Done For? (Paywalled, but maybe somebody here is a subscriber and can share a link.] |
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05 Jan 26 - 06:39 AM (#4233830) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: clueless don Dave the Gnome: I believe that Mr. Lennon was referring to the entire guitar part that precedes the vocal, not just the opening feedback. |
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05 Jan 26 - 11:10 PM (#4233866) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,Buttons A riff is a riff...just like a lick is a lick |
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06 Jan 26 - 01:36 AM (#4233869) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman a riff is not a riff when it is played by the riff raff |
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06 Jan 26 - 02:08 AM (#4233875) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST sandflea is nipping at ankles again:) Try healing the rift for a change son |
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06 Jan 26 - 02:41 AM (#4233876) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman happy new year to you too |
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06 Jan 26 - 04:41 AM (#4233882) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman Puns on the Word "Riff" She-riff: What you call a female police officer who plays lead guitar. Riff-raff: When the opening guitar parts of a song are low quality. Mid-riff: A guitar lick played halfway through a song. Don’t let it cause a riff: Advice to bandmates to avoid an argument over a musical phrase. |
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06 Jan 26 - 06:41 AM (#4233890) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST,gillymor I think we need a Rifferee to settle this dispute. |
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06 Jan 26 - 08:55 AM (#4233897) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: GUEST The clue is in the etymology, “riff” = ‘repeated figure’ Incidentally I thought Wyman’s first name was really Reg, same as Elton… |
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06 Jan 26 - 10:37 AM (#4233901) Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff? From: The Sandman Wyman was born as William George Perks in Lewisham Hospital in Lewisham, South London |