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07 Feb 00 - 08:29 AM (#174423) Subject: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg On a Cindy Mangsen album, there is a song called The Wren that bears no resemblance to the wren posted in DT. It's very haunting and mysterious, with the lyrics giving few clues to the meaning of the song. I've read the thread that is about Wrenning (and recommend it to new mudcatters to practice searching). This may be a different question. In this song, the wren sounds more like a heroic character who, if he can be found, will save his people who sound like they're in desperate straits. Does anyone knowa song where the wren is maybe a king or would-be king hiding in the woods awaiting his restoration to the throne, or some other Wren story not immediately apparent to US-ers? Or is there a rewared to the wrenner that would justify risking death by freezing? Did adults go wrenning or was this just for young ones? Lyrics anyone?
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07 Feb 00 - 09:27 AM (#174445) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) I think that in Ireland wrenning was practised mainly by boys. It was partly a way of getting money (hence the decline of the custom in direct proportion to the increase in prosperity) but also a way of impressing the lasses. Variants of this custom are known in England. In one place, instead of "the wren, the wren, the king of the birds", the merrymakers would process with rams' horns, reciting "the ram, the ram, the king of the Jews". I don't know what distribution of ages was among those who practised this custom. The wren is one of the more common birds that winters in northern Europe, so it isn't surprising to find numerous literary and musical references to her. (Her American cousins are just as spunky and fine.) Even if the Cindy Mangsen song is new, which it may be, it sounds from your description like a combination that incorporates some traditional components. T. |
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07 Feb 00 - 09:32 AM (#174450) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Áine Dear Praise, Do you think you could supply the lyrics to this thread so that we could see what you're talking about? That would be very helpful in answering your question. -- Áine |
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07 Feb 00 - 12:38 PM (#174542) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: GUEST,Bill (Scotland) Bonnie Prince Charlie was reffered to as the wren after the Jacobite uprising. His supporters used the code rather than using his name and risking arrest. |
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07 Feb 00 - 12:38 PM (#174543) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Are youi thinking of "The Cutty Wren"? It certainly qualifies as mmysterious! HERE's version in the DT. Regards |
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07 Feb 00 - 12:48 PM (#174552) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Mbo Bonnie Prince Charlie was also known as "The Blackbird." The tune that we all know and love actually has old Jacobite words, with these references to him as a blackbird. He seemed to collect some very avian knicknames didn't he? --Mbo |
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07 Feb 00 - 01:41 PM (#174575) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Liz the Squeak Sounds like the Fisher King myth to me, ties in with Arthur, Bran the Blessed and a few others I haven't time to go through.... LTS |
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07 Feb 00 - 03:21 PM (#174606) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg This is WONDERFUL. So far it sounds like we're getting somewhere. I think there's definitely a deposed king in this thing or one of his main guerilla supporters... I can't remember the words to the Mangsen version, the tape and the tape box are lost and it's just in my head! It was out about 5-7 years ago. Author unknown to me. Is Anne Hills a catter? I bet she would know. I THINK The first verse starts, What could ever drive a man To venture out in all this cold.... [or is it snow?] What could ever be the dream upon his mind, Or the voices he heard singing on the wind? The chorus starts, Singing down, down, bless this child.. or was it soul... Don't you hate it when this happens? It's right on the tip of yesterday's mind, and here I am living for today. I am in the middle of an emergency fundraising drive for the Red Cross I work for and it's hard to be a media slut and a pure folkie at the same time. I visit the Cafe for a cuppa in between issuing press releases and apparently haven't yet had enough of either! Thanks for trying to help! |
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07 Feb 00 - 03:25 PM (#174608) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg Is the Cutty Wren sung like Billy Barlow???? |
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07 Feb 00 - 03:54 PM (#174623) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: GUEST,Frank Of Toledo That version sung by Cindy Mangsen was written by Jack Hardy 1984, recorded on his CD "The Cauldron", done by Cindy on her CD songlines. If you'd like all the lyrics, let me know. As for interpretation, that"s open for each person. Jack is one of our hidden treasures in contemporary writing. Let me know is you'd like the lyrics, and I'll be glad to oblige....... |
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07 Feb 00 - 04:21 PM (#174633) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg YES! Please lyrics, and do you know how to reach Jack Hardy? Thanks! |
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07 Feb 00 - 04:22 PM (#174635) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg PS-- Chords by any chance? If not I can figger em out and put em out next |
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07 Feb 00 - 04:32 PM (#174639) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: MMario Lyrics for that whole album can be found here url = http://www.wing.net/jhardy/jhcauldron.html |
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07 Feb 00 - 06:48 PM (#174733) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg Ahhhhh..... relief. Thanks all, and Mmario.... |
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07 Feb 00 - 08:49 PM (#174787) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Lucius None of these versions seem to explain why the wren would be hunted down, rather than exaulted. I recall a vague story from my youth that had to do with the capture (and eventual martyrdom) of St. Stephen. All of the creatures of the forest were sworn to secrecy, and it was the wren that broke tryst and betrayed St. Stephen. I'm sure that I'm not remembering this clearly, but perhaps someone knows a similar story? Lucius |
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07 Feb 00 - 09:12 PM (#174801) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Lucius, it might be a "ritual reversal". In parts of Europe it has long been considered unlucky or cowardly to kill the wren. The wren-hunt would then reflect a midwinter suspension of norms. More likely, it is simply a case of ritual opportunism. The wren was hunted because it was one of the few birds easily available in winter. (Most others had migrated). In some places in the 19th century the wren was captured, not killed. Taking the wren alive is harder than killing it, and therefore impresses the lasses all the more. T. |
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07 Feb 00 - 10:09 PM (#174821) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Sorcha From: "Pagan Celtic Britain", by Ann Ross, Chapter VI, page 260 (in my edition): "Because it is a rare account of the wren as an ominous bird also, the following is given in full translation from the Irish: ".........if it call from behind you importuning of your wife by another man in despite of you. If it be on the ground behind you, your wife will be taken from you by force. If the wren call from the east, poets are coming towards you, or tidings from them. If it call behind you from the south, you will see the heads of good clergy or hear death tidings of noble ex lay men. If it call from the south robbers and evilkinsmen are coming. If it call from the north west, a noble hero of good lineage and noble hospitallars and goodwomen are coming. If it call from the north, bad people are coming whether warriors or clerics or bad women and wiched youths are on way"........ How much more do you want? The idea is that the wren was a bird of prophecy, much like the raven, and nobody much wanted to hear bad tidings, so they hunted the wrens. |
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07 Feb 00 - 11:53 PM (#174859) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg I'd love to know what y'all think the posted lyrics mean (in the link from Mmario above). I find much to enrich the song among all of your comments. Sometimes it is good to leave a mystery a mystery, and I don't find that anyone's thoughts have taken away the mystery of this song. Keep contributing if it interests you, and I wish you could hear the melody! I have it in my head but no music software to give the melody in return for all of the gracious contributions given... |
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08 Feb 00 - 12:46 AM (#174886) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Malcolm Douglas Just by way of an aside: The birds had a contest to decide who was to be their king; The bird who flew highest would be the winner. The eagle expected to get the crown, but, unknown to them all, the wren stood on the eagle's head while he soared, and so attained the greatest height, and the kingship. Malcolm |
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08 Feb 00 - 01:26 PM (#175086) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Liz the Squeak Lucius, wrens lie dormant during winter in a group in the bushes, not really hibernating, but when Stephen hid from his accusers just before he was stoned, he hid in a bush. The wrens were disturbed and rose up shouting an alarm, whereupon Stephen was caught and killed. Never considered a lucky bird since then, although there may have been some Mithraic input to the tradition, as a) wrens aren't all that common in Palestine, and b) Mithras was the religion that was there first..... LTS |
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30 Aug 00 - 05:06 PM (#288118) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg refresh |
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30 Aug 00 - 05:11 PM (#288127) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg See also: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=24710&messages=24 ~S~ |
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30 Aug 00 - 07:11 PM (#288200) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: IvanB Praise, the clicky to the lyrics above is no longer operational and when I went to the new site, the lyrics are no longer there (he has a new album out and he's posted the lyrics and sound clips from that). So, if you want to exegete the song (yes, I know exegete's a noun, but us old gov't workers are experts at converting nouns to verbs), you'll have to post the lyrics. Hope you got them earlier and hope you'll post them, cause it sounds like a song I'd like to learn. And, if you have a way to record yourself singing a verse of the song on your computer and would send me the sound file, I'd be glad to transcribe it for the DT. If this is a possibility, my email is: Ivan Bradley's e-mail |
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30 Aug 00 - 08:34 PM (#288242) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: death by whisky The tradition of hunting the wren is still practiced on St.Stephens day.A group of musicians,poets and storytellers would roam from house to house entertaining the residents. In LISTOWEL,CO KERRY,about seven miles from here,a stage is erected in the town square,and groups of wren boys would take turns in competition. Its more of a laugh than a serious competition. Music,poetry,storytelling and fancy dress.It's great craic |
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31 Aug 00 - 08:14 PM (#288881) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: John in Brisbane Truly entertaining thread - thanks to all. Regards, John |
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25 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM (#514136) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg Huh, it seems we never finished this one. Anyone have the lyrics the easy way? Hi Ivan! Record it for you? Someday... now that I can! *G* ~S~ (AKA Praise in earlier messages) |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:23 AM (#514164) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: MMario The Wren what could ever drive a man to venture out in all this cold? what could ever be the dream upon his mind or the voice he heard come singing through the snow? chorus: singing down down, bless this soul singing down down, this i know singing down down down down, waming must be sent and by foot it must be brought and so we went for the wren when all the people are quite warm except the few who gather fuel they dread the wind when it gathers in the north that causes all the gods to be so cruel singing down down bless this soul singing down down this i know singing down down down down to the forest end and perhaps it might be there we apprehend the wren these of caution to be seen abroad at night about the queen when all the world knows that deep down inside the burden of paradise is mean singing down down bless this soul singing down down this i know singing down down down down games of pretend whether howling at the moon or magdalen or the wren a flock of birds must crown a king against the wind and under wing and never notice when the one in front he falls and another takes his place to gather all singing down down bless this soul singing down down this i know singing down down down down hear the voices blend though those who stand behind will not defend the wren |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:35 AM (#514174) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg Thanks, how did you have that? I'll format it for harvesting and re-post it. ~S~ |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM (#514183) Subject: Lyr Add: THE WREN (Jack Hardy) From: wysiwyg THE WREN Jack Hardy What could ever drive a man To venture out in all this cold? What could ever be the dream upon his mind Or the voice he heard come singing through the snow? Singing down down, bless this soul Singing down down, this I know Singing down down down down, waming must be sent And by foot it must be brought and so we went For the wren When all the people are quite warm Except the few who gather fuel They dread the wind when it gathers in the north That causes all the gods to be so cruel Singing down down bless this soul Singing down down this I know Singing down down down down to the forest end And perhaps it might be there we apprehend The wren These of caution to be seen Abroad at night about the queen When all the world knows that deep down inside The burden of paradise is mean Singing down down bless this soul Singing down down this I know Singing down down down down games of pretend Whether howling at the moon or Magdalen Or the wren A flock of birds must crown a king Against the wind and under wing And never notice when the one in front he falls And another takes his place to gather all Singing down down bless this soul Singing down down this I know Singing down down down down hear the voices blend Though those who stand behind will not defend The wren SOURCE: Written by Jack Hardy 1984, recorded on his CD "The Cauldron." Also sung by Cindy Mangsen on her CD songlines. (per Frank of Toledo) LP/SH
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25 Jul 01 - 09:45 AM (#514186) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: MMario just went to the link posted in my message of feb 7 double-ought and followed the bouncing links... |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:46 AM (#514187) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg Ypto-- in source, [songlines] s/be ["Songlines"]. |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:48 AM (#514191) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg I thought that was the dead link... must be I need that second cup of coffee. Thanks tho! ~S~ |
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25 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM (#514234) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Jimmy C In many countries superstitions of good and evil are attached to certain birds. The raven has a reputation for bringing evil and bad luck. Wild geese are a sign of a severe winter, the robin is held sacred for no one would kill a bird that had the mark of the blood of Christ on it's breast etc, while the wren is hunted and killed with intense hate and cruelty on St. Stephen's Day (Boxing Day) in Ireland. The Irish hate the wren for one one occasion when Irish troops were approaching to attack a portion of Cromwell's army. some wrens came and perched on the Irish drums and their tapping on the skins aroused the English who counterattacked and kiled all the Irish troops. So ever since the wren is hunted in Ireland. Children are taught to run it through with thorns and kill it any way possible. A dead wren is also tied to a pole and carried froom house to house by boys, who demand money. If no money was given, the wren is then buried outside the door of the house, which was considered a great insult to the family, and a degradation. (From Irish Cures, Mystic Charms & Superstitions) by Lady Wilde. |
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25 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM (#514244) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe Jack Hardy could explain it - though not necessarily. You can't always explain things you've written.
Anyway, as I read it - and that's without hearing it, which can change everything - the image seems clearly to be about people going out wrenning, in the winter, with a view to catching and killing the wren.
But there's the idea with it of seeing the wren as a sacrificial victim, carrying the burden of the rest of the birds/ the people, to appease the anger of the gods/of the winter. (They dread the wind when it gathers in the north That causes all the gods to be so cruel)
(For a song of mine that this reminded me of -Another Spring.
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25 Jul 01 - 11:59 AM (#514280) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: wysiwyg I have cobbled up the melody (from memory), in Noteworthy. Maybe Ivan will help me finish fixing it up in proper measures and we will send it in to Mmaster Mmario for his Mmissing Mmelodies. The words are haunting enough, but oh that melody! ~S~ |
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26 Jul 01 - 09:14 PM (#515470) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Art Thieme None other than the Clancy Brothers did a song about the wren and going door to door begging for a treat. Wa sit a dead wren I remembewr??? They're getting money to bury the bird as I seem to remember. Anybody recall this song? Art Thieme |
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27 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM (#515853) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Malcolm Douglas It's in the DT, with a number of others: THE WREN SONG (2); the midi is missing, though it's present in the download version. |
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29 Jul 01 - 08:13 PM (#517403) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: GUEST,Mike The Cutty Wren.......Came from the aftermath of the Peasant Revolt In England,After the Event it was forbidden to talk about it.The Cutty Wren was the way to celebrate it in secret.Described as one of the finest rebel songs. Used by an English Playwright as the background Song in the Play......CHIPS WITH EVERYTHING ( I Think Arnold Wesker) |
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30 Jul 01 - 02:37 PM (#517837) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: rea I was always under the impressoion that The Cutty Wren (ans The King, as sung by Steeleye Span) was about a traditional chirstmas time celebration, where the men or boys of the village went out and caught a wren, bringing it back to the village dressed in ribbons; it may be connected to St Stephen's Day, but I believe that the origins of the ritual are older than that. I believe it was symbolic of finding and killing the King of Winter, allowing for the sun's return. The tradition was simply incorperated in christian practises (like so many others) Still ties in with the song you're talking about, though. |
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30 Jul 01 - 10:08 PM (#518085) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Susan A-R Seems to me that the Woodchucks know Jack Hardy. I believe he was involved in the great Porta Potty Heist at Old Songs over a year ago, but that could be a spurious myth. He hass done some Arthurian stuff before, and tends to write wonderfully mysterious things. I particularly like the Tinker's Coin.
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06 Apr 20 - 08:49 AM (#4044379) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: mayomick In his “ Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion “ first published in1890 James George Fraser related the wren custom to the worship and annual sacrifice of a sacred king .He connected the hunting of the wren to such pagan practices as Indian snake worship. “The worshipful animal is killed with special solemnity once a year; and before or immediately after death he is promenaded from door to door, that each of his worshippers may receive a portion of the divine virtues that are supposed to emanate from the dead or dying god.” “Ceremonies closely analogous to this Indian worship of the snake have survived in Europe into recent times, and doubtless date from a very primitive paganism. The best-known example is the “hunting of the wren.” By many European peoples—the ancient Greeks and Romans, the modern Italians, Spaniards, French, Germans, Dutch, Danes, Swedes, English, and Welsh—the wren has been designated the king, the little king, the king of birds, the hedge king, and so forth, and has been reckoned amongst those birds which it is extremely unlucky to kill.” “Notwithstanding such beliefs,[i.e that it is unlucky to kill the wren] the custom of annually killing the wren has prevailed widely both in this country and in France. In the Isle of Man down to the eighteenth century the custom was observed on Christmas Eve, or rather Christmas morning. On the twenty-fourth of December, towards evening, all the servants got a holiday; they did not go to bed all night, but rambled about till the bells rang in all the churches at midnight. When prayers were over, they went to hunt the wren, and having found one of these birds they killed it and fastened it to the top of a long pole with its wings extended. Thus they carried it in procession to every house chanting the following rhyme: “We hunted the wren for Robin the Bobbin, We hunted the wren for Jack of the Can, We hunted the wren for Robin the Bobbin, We hunted the wren for every one.”” more here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3623/3623-h/3623-h.htm |
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06 Apr 20 - 08:07 PM (#4044551) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Sandra in Sydney this is a fascinating thread, thanks for adding to it, mayomick Wikipedia - Jack Hardy (1947-2011) |
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07 Apr 20 - 06:32 AM (#4044625) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: mayomick Maybe with the revival of the custom in parts of Ireland the wren boys have become more like carol singers but they used to be fearsome visitors to a house up until recently - at least in Mayo. My sister told me about a visit , how they come in uninvited banging drums, playing tin whistles taking over the kitchen , angrily demanding to be fed and given drink. She knew some of them and said they all would turn back into pleasant enough neighbours after Stephen's Day In Ballina for Christmas about twenty years ago I met a bunch of them coming up the hill in Ardnaree thinking how nice it was to see the quaint , ancient custom still being performed .I remember the hostile, contemptuous look they fired back at me when I smiled and nodded to them! |
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07 Apr 20 - 09:17 AM (#4044644) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Jack Campin "GUEST, Mike" up there is repeating A.L. Lloyd's theory about it. It was a good story but he seems to have been winging it. |
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07 Apr 20 - 10:17 AM (#4044657) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Jim Carroll The wren is said to have been be hated in Ireland (according to Lady Wilde) because of the story of Cromwell times telling of how, after one battle a numer of wrens perched on the drums of the Irish soldiers exposing their position to the Cromwellian troops I don't think Bert's story indicates which Peasant's Revolt, (there were several) but it seems that the belief is fairly old and not just a Bert 'makie-up' As Mick's quote points out, the story and hunting custom was a strong part of Isle of Man Tradition, (covered extensively in Walter Gill's 'Second Isle of Man Scrapbook') Some Irish Travellers continued the tradition right to the second half of the 20th century); Kery Travellers described doing it as an adult right up to when he left Ireland in the 1950s He said that, as a child the he witnesssed them catching a wren, killing it and nailing it to a board, but eventually, they decided that was cruel and used strips of paper instead - it was strictly an adult tradition Local kids around here in Clare were still using it as a begging tradition up to five years ago - it seems to have disappeared lately The most poignant story we heard about the tradition was told to us by veteran fiddle player, Junior Crehan - he called the story' 'The Wren that went to America' This area was hit particularly badly during and after the Famine and Junior told us of a group of men setting out 'on the Wran' one particularly cold St Stephens Day and meeting with little response due to the the prevailing poverty They moved on from area to area, heading north, sleeping at the side of the road and eventually got so far from home that they decided not to go home, walked to around the coast to Galway nearly 100 miles away, begged a passage on a ship to America and never came home The story came back to Ireland via a letter to one of their family members Jim Carroll |
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07 Apr 20 - 10:20 AM (#4044659) Subject: RE: Help: Who was The Wren? From: Jim Carroll Traveller story from Mikeen McCarthy of Cahersiveen Jim |