BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?

29 Feb 00 - 01:43 PM (#186850)
Subject: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Dear Mudcatters,

I am outraged and saddened at today's latest news about guns and children killing children in the USA. I just heard on National Public Radio that the gun in question (see story below) was brought for show and tell.

This just fills me with despair! What in the world are we, as a society, doing to stop this kind of outrage? My knee-jerk reaction is to make sure my grandsons never go to school, that they be homeschooled when they come of age. The more balanced response, for me, is to believe in their safety and that of whatever school they go to, but then I think, that is probably what the parents of this little girl did.

This has to stop! Thanks for listening, kat

MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP, Mich. (Reuters) - A young girl was shot and killed by another student in front of her teacher and first grade class Tuesday, Michigan police said, in the latest in a series of shootings to hit American schools. A spokeswoman for Hurley Medical Center in Flint, Mich., confirmed the 6-year-old girl had died after conflicting reports from police, one of which said she was in critical condition. Further details about the victim, who died in the hospital at 10:29 a.m. EST , were not released.

The girl and the shooting suspect, a boy, were attending class at Buell Elementary School, north of Flint, when the boy pulled out a gun, police said. Police were continuing to investigate the shooting and did not provide further details about why the gun was fired.

The boy was taken into custody. No other injuries were reported.

About 22 students were in the classroom at the time of the shooting. Police evacuated the rest of the school, but kept the 22 inside the building for counseling and further questioning.

Anxious parents rushed to the school.

"I want to know how a 6-year-old boy got a gun and shot a 6-year-old girl," one tearful mother told WDIV-TV.

In April 1999, two Columbine High School students in Littleton, Colo., went on a shooting rampage, killing 12 other students and a teacher before committing suicide in the worst school shooting in U.S. history.

One month after that, a student opened fire at Heritage High School near Conyers, Ga., injuring six schoolmates before being taken into custody.

The shootings sparked a crackdown by police and school officials across the United States, who have reacted more severely to student threats.

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29 Feb 00 - 01:49 PM (#186861)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: catspaw49

Geeziz......

Spaw

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29 Feb 00 - 01:53 PM (#186864)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amos

Oh, sweet mother of god...

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29 Feb 00 - 02:01 PM (#186871)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,JTT

Poor babies, both of them.

I remember meeting a black lad from Texas back in the late 1960s. When he was five he had been playing with his father's gun, pointing it out the window of a building in some Texan town. He pulled the trigger and shot a police officer dead. The family just gathered up all their children and ran, and he grew up in England. They knew that their son would have no chance of fair treatment, a black child who shot dead a white policeman.

What chance has this poor child now? I doubt he could have really known what he was doing. Poor babies. Poor parents.

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29 Feb 00 - 02:16 PM (#186887)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Sorcha

All gods have mercy on all of them..........As a cop's wife, I sure don't have any viable answers. Are we going to have to go to metal detectors, drug sniffing dogs and cops in all our schools? I think we have forced the schools to take over more and more of parental responsibilities, and then "we" whine when our kids don't get an education and the schools don't teach them what their parents should have. I am staying out of the Amadou thread because I wasn't there, did not have all the info so don't think I should make up an un-informed opinion, but I do agree that it seems like cops and teachers can't do anything right anymore.

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29 Feb 00 - 02:18 PM (#186890)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Clinton Hammond2

(rant on!) His poor parents my ass!!

Any parent that lets a 6 year old have access to a gun needs to be taken out and sterilised to remove that kind of stupidity from the gene pool!

Charleton Heston and the rest of the NRA be damned, guns are needed by 2 groups of people and no other... Police and Military.... and as fond as I am of wild meat, hunters could suck it up and learn to hunt with bows....

Guns don't kill people by themselves, but peope use guns to kill people...

(rant off)

Very sad... very sad indeed... A sad comment on western society...

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29 Feb 00 - 02:26 PM (#186897)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Llanfair

Can someone link to last year's thread about the American right to bear arms? Bron.

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29 Feb 00 - 02:39 PM (#186902)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amergin

I'm sorry, but if you take the guns away from the people, who's going to protect us from the police and military? Ever since this beloved country of ours was founded (by rich white men), the poor people have been the victims of sanctioned violence by the rich man's goons. Look into the Civil Rights Movement, our violent labor history, our wars. But on the other hand, if your going to own a gun you had best be responsible enough to keep it away from small hands.

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29 Feb 00 - 02:51 PM (#186912)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: kendall

A WELL REGULATED MILITIA etc. how does this part always get lost in the ranting of the gun nuts? Let's face it. Our right to keep and bear arms comes not from the constitution, but, from a gutless congress and a strong gun lobby. (from a retired federal officer who can read)

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29 Feb 00 - 02:54 PM (#186915)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Metchosin

Sorry but I find it hard to fathom a country in the western world that is so paranoid of its government and army that it will sacrifice its children for the right to bear arms. If they insist that their paranoia is founded, at least hold the individual responsible for where their gun ends up and the damage done.End of rant.

Oh Christ! what a tragedy. I'm so sorry.

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29 Feb 00 - 02:57 PM (#186916)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Clinton Hammond2

Americans.... *sigh*

the right to bear arms was talking about MUSKETTS!!!!

yer society, for many reasons, is gong the way of ancient Rome... and unless you're willing to make some drastic changes, nothing is gonna stop it!

But this thread isn't for Anti-American rants...

So I'm not gonna bother....

I just hope that the parents of the little boy mentioned above are held responsible...

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29 Feb 00 - 03:02 PM (#186918)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amos

A six year old with a gun is not in any related to a militia. And the US army is not a militia, in my lexicon, either. So who kissed this boy, put a lunch in his hand, and sent him off to the bus without noticing an untimely bulge in his jacketpocket? Whose gun was it? How did it happen they had left it where a six year old --- sweet JESUS SUFFERING WEEPING BLOODY CHRIST!!! SIX!!! -- could lift it and slip it into his pocket...and, interestingly enough, from a place where it was kept LOADED!!!

This is not the nation sacrificing its children for a right of any kind. It is a foolish, ignorant, obscenely unalert individual or two, in this case...I cannot write...I thank the gods my child grew past six...

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29 Feb 00 - 03:02 PM (#186919)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Please folks, I didn't start this to get going on the gun debate. It was way too painful last year when that happened at the time of Columbine.

I realise there needs to be discussion about children and violence and I guess that has to involve guns, but let's try to keep it to specifics and not generalise about any one segment of the population. Somehow, we are all part of this and we have to find solutions together.

Here are links to last year's gun debates. Please, please do NOT refresh them. It will just reopen old wounds and sorrows.

guns, to my friends at Mudcat

guns again, hesitatingly

Thank you,

kat

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29 Feb 00 - 03:06 PM (#186925)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Several of you had not posted as I was composing the above. I was NOT talking about any one post specifically, just general.

Thank you,

kat

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29 Feb 00 - 03:10 PM (#186930)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: catspaw49

Just had another case here a few months back that needs mentioned. Same kind of scenario....three little boys, all about 7. Child A is at Child B's house and they find a gun in the closet. They take it outside and in the process of showing it to Child C, Child A shoots Child C.

I mention this as a parent who realizes all too well the danger. We have no guns. But what happens when my son is somewhere else?

The temptation of a gun as a toy is very great........and all of this is very tragic for ALL involved.

Spaw

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29 Feb 00 - 03:13 PM (#186931)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Clinton Hammond2

Just to say this, I came back...

Re: Old wounds and sorrows....

If I may, life is pain.. or rather pain is a part of life...

But to quote an Endurance Racer friend of mine

Pain is Inevitable
Misery is optional

Just thought it'd make a good bumper sticker or something

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29 Feb 00 - 03:17 PM (#186933)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

My children have been taught firearm safety. Neither of them has direct access to firearms. Both of them have been shooting since they were five...Neither of them have ever had a firearm in their possesion at any time without supervision. They did not play with toy guns, and are fully aware of what happens when you pull the trigger. How could anyone be so stupid as to let these children take loaded firearms into a school in the first place? Logic is just not present. Dont dump on the NRA they are helping educate children and support gun safety. Millions of responsible firearm owners are being shit upon by people who do not realize that the problem is not the gun. Guns can be made in the garage of any North American household with ease. Any attempt to control them will be frustrated.It is the will to use them so callously, and without fear of consequence. That my friends is the real root of the problem. A complete disregard for the sanctity of human life. Violence has become worshipped in society. Check out any hockey game. Wrestling, Boxing, TV and Movies.. When was the last time anyone praised lifesavers? All you get is war and gang related killings blasted at kids by the media, until it appears a normal event. Movies are filled with mindless violence. that is part of the problem. Yours,(saddened and outraged by the killings)Aye.Dave

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29 Feb 00 - 03:18 PM (#186935)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: AKS

Sad, so sad ...

Last sunday night I set out to watch (on Finnish TV) a Swedish documentary about A. Kalashnikov, creator of the 'famous' AK-47, automatic military rifle. Among the interviewed was a US woman who'd survived one of the fairly recent shootings (more than 20 injured, several dead, I missed which one). She now travels around the US with a bulleted cartidge of AK-47 and speaks in favor of freely available automatic weapons because the 'incident' convinced her - and should convince the world, shethinks - that they are SAFER than 'normal' hunting rifles or shotguns!!!

AKS (who's wondering whether any weapon can be safe in any respect)

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29 Feb 00 - 03:26 PM (#186943)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amos

Tell ye what isn't safe...being an idiot. Hell, even being in the same room with one!

Here's another question: the time between that gun coming out of Junior's pants and his firing it must have been a number of seconds... and the teacher was...where? Doing....what? I have to stop before I violate the bounds of courtesy...

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29 Feb 00 - 04:23 PM (#186974)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,Rick Fielding, who thought he was a member.

As long as folks continue to try and make ancient documents (constitution, bible etc.) relevant to todays society, the tiresome arguments about "rights to bear arms", will continue. At what point will "patriots" be so disgusted by murder that they will agree to "new documents"?

Even the "Canadian smugness" is now disappearing, as stories of potential high school massacres are starting to appear in the news. We're definitely catching up. Very sad.

Rick

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29 Feb 00 - 04:58 PM (#187006)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: JamesJim

Of course, we all are shocked saddened. The first thing I thought of was my own life experience. I grew up in the cowboy era, where playing with toy guns was second nature. When I was old enough (at least I thought so), I talked my parents into buying me a B-B gun (Red Ryder variety). I was about 10. Later, at about age 13 or 14, I got my own 22 caliber rifle (still have it). I went into the armed services in the early 60s and of course, there I learned a lot about weapons and killing people.

When I was 5 or 6 years old, every young boy (and many young girls) in my school idolized cowboy heros such as, Roy Rogers (Dale Evans for the girls) & Gene Autry. I dare say that our friends around the world grew up watching western movies themselves and perhaps dreaming of the "old west."

There were a lot of guns, bullets and smoke in those old movies, yet none of us even thought about taking a real gun to school, much less actually killing someone. What has changed? I know we must be careful of nostalgia. It can cause us to view the world with a jaundiced eye. But, our cowboy heros rarely killed anyone. They mostly chased bad guys and locked them up. And, we watched them at the movies, not on television. Now, our children idolize the tough guy who frequently ends up blowing everyone away....and sadly, they watch much of it on television. Of course, they could just watch the news on any of the cable or network channels (at any time of day) and they'll see all the things we never even thought of when we were kids. How can a young mind handle all of life's garbage?

It's not the guns friends. Allowing a six year old to have access to a handgun is tantamount to putting an alcoholic behind the wheel of an automobile. Allowing our children to watch (and learn from) many of the movies on TV, is like giving that alcoholic driving lessons. I don't know the answer. I suppose we could take all of the guns away from every citizen and that would solve the problem. Yes, that's it. Maybe we could censor all movies and not allow the gory ones to be shown. Or, maybe we could just take away all televisions and computers (no access to the Internet and all of it's destructive forces). Yes, the answer is to eliminate all of those evil forces in life. And, of course, we can identify every one - SO, LET'S GET AT IT (he says, tongue in cheek).

I lost a seven year old grandson in a horrible automobile accident in 1991. It was years before I could even drive past that location. I hurt every time I see or hear of a young person losing their life in a completely senseless way. Human error caused the senseless accident that took my grandson's life. A horrible act of humanity. The gun issue is always in the political forefront in the U.S. However, I doubt that any law, or for that matter, any politician, can solve this terrible problem. There's no simple answer, folks.

Sorrowfully yours, Jim

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29 Feb 00 - 04:59 PM (#187008)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amergin

Why shouldn't we be paranoid of our own government? When hasn't it imposed it's deadly will on the people? Take the DEA for instance, they can bust into your home, scare the shit out you nad your family, take everything you have ever busted your back and bled for, and the bastards don't even have to charge you. If Big Brother takes away one right of the people, where will it end? Will end with just that deletion? how about freedom of religion? The so-called Moral Majority is constantly harrassing those of us who are sane. Freedom of Speech? Parties at address 451 happen on a regular basis across the country, sometimes even sanctioned by the state. The list goes on. Contrary to the belief of some of you folks, I am not part of any militia, nor do I sanction murder in any way shape or form. Well, have a nice day everyone.

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29 Feb 00 - 05:02 PM (#187009)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

DaveTAM, it might interest you to go read some of the postings in the previous threads I linked in here. I was raised target practising since about 5 years old and taught respect for the killing power of a gun, etc. The problem is, as you point out, many, many people aren't raising their children that way and the many, many people are not restricting the kind of rot their children can see on tv, etc.

But, here, at least, the NRA has gone so far to the right, they are no longer seen as a valid organisation by those of us who want to see an end to the kind of fucking insanity of incidents like today and the previous school killings. Wyoming is extremely conservative and filled with NRA members. They voted to lower the hunting age from 15 to 12, yet they do nothing to make sure a child doesn't have access to a loaded gun. Recently a 12 year old whose father was hard on him about his grades, went home and got out his parent's hunting rifle and blew his brains out.

Rick is right. The NRA et al cannot continue down the rigid path of ownership at all costs....the cost of any child's life is too high!

Respectfully disagreeing,

kat

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29 Feb 00 - 05:02 PM (#187010)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Linda Kelly

we learnt our lesson at dunblane -16 wee small things sacrificed. Hand guns are now banned in the UK and we probably have some of the tightest gun control laws in the western world. Our policemen other than specialised units do not bear arms. It is not a perfect society and we have mindless violence galore and a lot of illegal weaponry - but we also have one of the lowest murder rates in the world.

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29 Feb 00 - 05:18 PM (#187022)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Chet W.

Nothing could be as important here as mourning this child. I'll talk about guns some other time, but keep this rage for that time. As far as the schools, if at all possible, find another place for your child. The situation is not going to improve in the forseeable future.

Saddened every time, Chet

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29 Feb 00 - 05:39 PM (#187027)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: folk1234

This issue is one of personal responsibility. It has nearly vanished in our litigious society. Guns are lethal weapons, but so too are cars, hammers, axes, and baseball bats.
The rebellion we must prepare for is not a foolhardy armed one against the US military and Govt agencies, but rather a rational and literate one against the 'excuse makers' and our ultra-liberal legislative and judicial systems. Laws are made for the public good. No public good is accrued when individuals are held unaccountable for the outcome of their actions.

In the case Kat has brought forth, the parents/guardians of the young boy should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment.

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29 Feb 00 - 05:50 PM (#187034)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

folk1234, with all due respect, I hardly think of our national Republican majority Congress as ultra-liberal nor the judicial system which has steadily been growing more conservative since Reagan's appointment's.

But, I do agree on personal responsibility and the parent's being held accountable.

I also would like to thank Chet for focussing on the real issue of my original posting. I've gone off of my original intent, too, and I am glad of the reminder that this IS about a child's lost life!

Thank you,

kat

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29 Feb 00 - 06:07 PM (#187046)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: catspaw49

As I said above....Yes, I believe in the responsibility of parents, but if you read my previous post, in this case too, I'd like to know more details first. Anyone who doesn't think it possible for a child to take something to school without the parents knowledge.......

Yeah...Parents are responsible for the actions of their children. But I wonder......Is there a strong and influential ball bat lobby? Why not prosecute Congress, etc. for a general lack of balls in not doing away with a "Right" which makes no sense in today's world?

Spaw

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29 Feb 00 - 06:36 PM (#187059)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Good point, Spaw.

Now we have a name, Kayla. Below is the latest. The 6 or 7yr old who shot her, meant to. He learned somewhere that a gun was how to resolve conflict, hmm....could it be all of the wars of the world, etc. Could it be his parents didn't get involved in what he was taking in via media, etc. Could it be he learned it from his parents?

Einstein said something to the effect of you cannot simultaneously prepare for war and expect peace. We have so many people these days who feel threatened, for whatever reason. Is violence the way to meet that perceived threat? How are children to learn that violence is not conflict resolution, when that is the model they are presented with throughout the world?

FLINT, Mich., Feb.29 (UPI) - Investigators say Tuesday's fatal shooting of a 6-year-old girl at a suburban Flint elementary school was intentional. Police said a 6- or 7-year-old boy shot his classmate at the Theo J. Buell Elementary School following a playground dispute Monday. "It appears the little boy and little girl had a playground quarrel of some sort," Prosecutor Arthur Busch told a news conference. He said there apparently had been some pushing and shoving. "He pointed it (the gun) at another little boy and then pointed it at the little girl, discharging the weapon, hitting her," Busch said. Busch said investigators were trying to determine how the child got the weapon, which had been reported stolen last year. The boy is in custody. Because of his age it is unlikely criminal charges will be filed. "We're looking at how he got the gun and how he got it into the building," Busch said. WNEM-TV identified the victim as Kayla Rolland. The boy reportedly opened fire inside their first grade classroom where 22 children and a teacher were present. Police said one shot was fired. There was no panic. Kayla was shot in the neck about 10 a.m. EST at the Mount Morris Township school and was pronounced dead less than a half hour later in the trauma unit at Hurley Medical Center in Flint. Police closed off nearby streets and sent anxious parents to a church parking lot across the street to wait for their children, who were bused there class by class. Classes were canceled for the day.

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29 Feb 00 - 07:54 PM (#187105)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Our church lost a sweet young lady recently and her parents were a lesson to us all. They didn't say much. They just hung onto each other and her sisters. They cried for days, and I mean hysterically. Then they came smiling and ready to go on, to her funeral, and in complete celebration of her life they welcomed us, held us, had the funeral director play "Spirit in the Sky" at top volune before the service, and kept everyone's attention on how really marvelous she had been so we could all cry with great big smiles on our faces. They reminded us to hold our dear ones close and love 'em while they're lent to us.

I have been looking at your postings about this terrible thing today, and praying for you all and for the people involved in this situation, and I have been thinking what to say about it. I know that there are probably Red Cross people on hand to help the people who have had this happen in their community. We need them here! I don't think, even though I am Red Cross myself, that what I will say will help much, but this is what I have been holding in my heart for you today, so...

There is never enough to say about a situation like this and I think you should not expect each other to make sense tryoing to talk about it. There are not words that can be wrapped around such insanity! I don't think even a melody from our best songsters can really capture this all. But I do think song is a more accurate way to address this pain than words we would say or write.

Try as we will, there is not enough reason in us to make sense of something like this. But we fragile, flawed humans do have something else very precious, something that we must call upon to encompass these very deep hurts. One source for it is the warm and very real presence of those you have with you in your lives, to love and be loved by. This tragedy calls for each of us to find someone we love, and someone who we know needs our love, and hold them very, very close, and let the hurt place inside you cry and rage and not be alone.

You cannot make this feel any better by giving and taking more hurt here between yourselves. It will not make anything better. It is enough to mark and dignify the passing of this child's irreplaceable life-- to reach out to one another from the sense that we all know this was a terribly wrong thing that was done-- and hold fast to your joy in one another.

There are people all around each of us who are like this little boy and his parents. Your most powerful influence in the world is your ability to love.

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29 Feb 00 - 08:24 PM (#187116)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Troll

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are not flawed, society is. Until people will A) start accepting responsibility for their actions instead of finding excuses for them and, B) stop glorifying violence in all its many popular forms, the deaths will continue.Ban guns and the weapons will simply change. The deaths will go on until these fundamental changes are made.

troll

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29 Feb 00 - 09:18 PM (#187147)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Cara

I expressed my views amply in the last round of "guns" threads, so I won't get into them again here. I have been just heartsick since I read the initial post on this thread. All of those affected by this event will be forever changed for the worse, and there are no words I can find to express my sorrow for the family of that little girl.

A cousin of mine recently lost his life because he was drunk and playing with a gun and it went off. How stupid is that? Yet some statistics indicate that more handgun deaths are attributable to accident than to malicious intent. If he had been drunk and playing with a baseball bat, he'd just be a stupid kid with a bruise on his head.

I grew up in Ohio, where lots of people hunt and deer season is a holiday in its own right. I never did hunt myself, but my male relatives and friends did. My grandfather kept his guns locked in a glass-front cabinet in the den. To the best of my knowledge, none of us ever tried to get in there, and I've no idea where the bullets were kept. I never thought about guns one way or the other really.

When I was 16, I went out to a hunting cabin owned by my boyriend's step-father. The three friends I was with all brought guns, a couple of handguns and a rifle of some sort. They were the first I'd ever seen that weren't behind glass. I don't know where they came from exactly; the rifle was somebody's hunting equipment and the handguns belonged to someone's father or uncle or something. The boys set up targets and shot a few rounds and then ran around in the woods shooting randomly up at the trees. I stayed up near the cabin. With us was my boyfriend's bratty six year old brother, Thomas. He was all over the place, so hyped up at being out in the woods with the big boys. They even let him try to shoot. Several times, someone had to pull him back as he tried to run out into the range of the bullets.

And nothing happened. I was uncomfortable being out there where we weren't supposed to be, so I decided we were going home and since it was my car we did. I didn't like the guns, but I didn't think that much of it. I was a smart girl in most respects but apparently very stupid as well. We weren't even supposed to be out there, especially with guns and let alone with guns and Thomas. I don't even know what I was thinking then, but now I think that we are lucky that nothing terrible happened. You'd never find me in that situation in a million years now. I haven't thought of it in years before today.

I think that's how so many of these things happen; stupid people take stupid chances and they are not all as lucky as we were. Those boys were always in trouble, but what was I doing there? And why was Thomas there? His brother could barely take care of himself; I can't even think what might have happened if I hadn't been there to take Thomas back up to the cabin when I saw what was happeining.

It was harder to get beer than it was to get those guns. It shouldn't be that way. I worked in public schools for a while, and I believe in them very strongly. But I don't know where my future children will be attending kindergarten; if it's not at my kitchen table, it may well be Canada or some other, saner country.

Thanks for listening (if you got this far!)

Peace and love.

Cara

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29 Feb 00 - 09:26 PM (#187152)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Cara, thank you very much for sharing that with us. And, Praise, words of great wisdom. So glad you posted. There were songs that came out of the last go round. In the end it seems we, in this community, do turn to the music for strength and healing. There just is no understanding something so unfathomable as this tragedy.

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29 Feb 00 - 09:54 PM (#187169)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,_gargoyle

If it wasn't with a gun....
................................It would have been with a stone.....or a garrot (ie your "neighbor" ms. ramsey)

Somehow, I can't believe that the populace of the wild, wooly state of Wyoming, know that you claim "kin-ship" to them!!!! As a whole, they are a Christian gun tottin people

Go to Great Britan....Russia.....Bosnia.....China.....I am sure their "gun-regulation-system" would be most to your liking.

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29 Feb 00 - 10:59 PM (#187199)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Sorcha

There are so many things I want to say on this subject, I am not sure where to start. I began shooting at about age 6, began killing animals about age 12. I grew up in this "tradition"......and I married into it.I even taught Hunter Saftey for several years. After about 20 years of marrige, I decided I did not like killing things and would not do it. I still catch crap from a lot of my family because of my decision. (I do kill house flies and mosquitos, but not spiders). The rest of my family still does hunt, but I cannot even help butcher and wrap in spite of the fact that I do eat meat, and have been on a kill floor.
I do not want to see all guns taken away from all Americans; I do not want to see our Constitution amended, but neither can I condone babies killing babies. I really think that this happens out of both ignorance and stupidity, which are not the same thing.

There have always been guns in my house, whether it was my parents house or mine and my husbands'. We have tried to educate our children about guns,and DEATH, but I am not sure we have made much headway against popular culture.
Our son (the son of a cop) is now a convicted felon.His father collaborated to buy him a handgun, Glock .40 ca., that I knew nothing about. He carried it in his car, un-be-knost to either of us. One night about a year ago, someone threw something at his car, and he stopped and said "What the Fock was that?" He was told "None of your ******* business, get out of here" . The speaker, along with 5 of his friends, then took off their coats, and started for the car. Our son pulled out the gun we did not know he had in his car, and threatened them with it. One of the boys tried to grab the gun and turn it back, with the result being that the gun went off. NO ONE was hurt, except the car, but our son was charged with 1) Reckless endagerment,(High Misdemeanor); sentence, 12 mos in jail, he served 8 mos, and 2) Possesion of a firearm to commit a crime, a felony; punishment--5 years of Supervised Probation.Also, a $1,000 fine. Probation only because he had served 8 mos in jail for the High Misdemeanor. Yes, he was in the wrong, he should have driven away, but still he was only trying to protect his own property. The whole county thinks he was over punished, but what if someone had died?
He was released from jail last Thanksgiving, and the time he served helped him to realize that what he did was very wrong, and he cannot make it right; but also helped him realize that apparently one is not allowed to protect ones-self. He is extremely bitter about the whole system now. This is a Cop's kid, so don't try to tell me that those on the "Inside" get a better deal.
I guess the upshot of all this is that I just cannot decide about guns. (Off my rant now)

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:50 AM (#187315)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Sorcha,

I just love to see you think and feel your way through things. Often it is to think and feel and laugh through things that are very funny. And then there was tonight's posting on this sad thing.

I can't say how it stuck others, but what you wrote above did not come off to me at all as a rant, but rather as a glimpse of what we have to go through to really see things sometimes. Thank you for sharing what you did. Our "preachers' kids" have had some things to learn from too. I think all of our culture is running at a speed faster than our rational brains can actually moderate. For example, I'm up now because I posted something earlier that I wish I could take back now. It will get a few laughs but I think actually I wasn't thinking, and I've "loosed" it now... We have all done things that seemed so very OK in the moment and then later we think, "What was I thinking?"

Thank you for taking the long way to think through what you posted.

---

01 Mar 00 - 02:52 AM (#187330)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

I would like to emphasize one of katlaughing's remarks: "so many people feel threatened." There are very few blocks in my city that might allow one to feel safe. On top of that is isolation. No one will help you, no one will be there to help you, if the threat materializes. It is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that one needs a very potent weapon around. And, with so many threatened people feeling the need to have weapons ready and near at hand, it is almost inevitable that gross negligences will occur – and awful tragedies ensue.

Can this society be made safe enough, that people can be ready to lock away or throw away their guns?

-- Larry C.

---

01 Mar 00 - 04:01 AM (#187342)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amergin

Personally, I am ashamed at myself for the rantings I have placed on a thread for which there is no room for political views of any kind. You all should be ashamed for yourselves, too. This is a thread about a baby girl who lost her life. I hereby call a moment of prayer to bless the ground her spirit now treads, to safely bring her into the next life. Blessed be.

---

01 Mar 00 - 04:08 AM (#187345)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

No shame in being human. Every time you fall, you're better for the getting up. It's where you end up that matters, not the sh*t you step in getting there.

It also isn't anyone's fault that feelings other than grief come up in these things. If it were easy to think well about, we would have solved it already. It's a hard thing, allowiong yourself to hurt where this hurts. Look at what I posted earlier, but did I go to bed holding my own dear one? No. I got up to write.

Let's all give each other a break, since we are unlikely to give one to ourselves.

Bless you all.

---

01 Mar 00 - 05:34 AM (#187359)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Hyperabid

I hardly dare enter this debate as it seems a tad hot and tootin.

I'm from the UK - my brother is a Detective Inspector on the serious crime squad. He does not carry a gun. His team get out guns when they need to deal with armed robbers etc. Otherwise they police our streets without them.

Our society fundtions. Our people remain secure and free. Our government has survived without a consitution for hundreds of years.

Hyp.

---

01 Mar 00 - 05:38 AM (#187361)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,_

---

01 Mar 00 - 05:47 AM (#187365)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST

I, for one, do not consider the UK to be a land of the free, and certainly not a model to be followed.

---

01 Mar 00 - 05:53 AM (#187366)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Hyperabid

I would certainly not suggest changing any constitutional models to match ours which is after all the equivalent of buiding a car from scrap you pick up on your journey home.

My point was merely that it is perfectly possible for a society to function without guns in the hands of the general population.

And purely personally, I think it is preferable.

Hyp

---

01 Mar 00 - 07:25 AM (#187378)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Lady McMoo

Neither is the USA the ideal model as recent tragic events have shown.

mcmoo

---

01 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM (#187460)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Peg

Thank you Amergin. I second that...

bumpersticker that needs to be made: GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE; SCHOOLCHILDREN WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE.

Peg

(who grew up in an avid sportsmanlike environment with many guns around and she learned to shoot 'em too and many a family dinner was a creature hunted in the forest and she prefers that to eating meat and not taking responsibility for an animal's sacrifice in, say, an agribusiness slaughtering pen after a cruel, filthy, drug-addled existence existence, and she respects gun owners like her dad who are mercenary about safety and who would punish his children if they ever even pointed a toy gun at anyone and who made it clear to all of her siblings that ammo and guns should not even be in the same room together in the house, and whose dad has told many a sad tale of hunting accidents where soemone ended up dead, but hey it comes with the territory, but she does NOT believe the risk of death by shooting comes with the territory of going to grammer school, and she agrees that hiding behind the arcane wording of the constitution in an age of semi-automatic weaponry is just plain stupid and sadistic and she wishes responsible gun owners could be spared a total crackdown on weapons but she thinks the only answer is much tighter controls on guns and surely responsible gun owners would be willing to undergo stricter background checks and licensing standards and controls in order to prevent any further senseless deaths in classrooms and living rooms and cafeterias and libraries and under the jungle gym on the playground...)

---

01 Mar 00 - 10:59 AM (#187483)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Rick Fielding

It hardly seems to matter does it. I'm as totally disgusted with the liberal point of of view as I am with the conservative one. Perhaps too much watching late night American political discussion shows has contributed to my nihilistic point of view. Democrats arguing passionately for gun control, while avoiding at all cost offending the music and movie industry...and republicans talking "constitutional rights" while refusing to nail the far right. All because of votes.

The one thing I'm certain of is that the funereal of the little girl will be televised, and that fucking "Amazing Grace" will once again be played while prechers drone on about "her being in a better place".

Yeah, I'm mad. I'm sorry. Sometimes hypocracy gets to me in a big way. Watching McCain, Bush, Gore, and Bradley skirt issues and lie everytime they open their mouths, can just get too much at times.

I've been on Mudcat for a year and a half now, and I hope my friends here know that I usually try to put some humour in my posts...but I feel quite overwhelmed by this.

Rick

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:11 AM (#187494)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

This news of yesterday still hurts like a sonofabitch, and we don't even know these people. No one here is desensitized to violence, at least yet, eh?

Since I profess Christ, people are always asking me why God allows these things to happen. Best answer I ever heard was, Since when is God responsible to us for the choices we make with the free will we were given? (Dunno about you, but when I think about that, right away I see what MY bad acts are.)

And I don't know how this fits, but unfortunately guns are just the current form of child annihilation. With all the real issues explored effectively here about gun control, it still doesn't solve how come humans are such incredible beasts to each other. A gun, a racist taunt, a little ethnic slam, a little off base humor... the things we do are just amazingly awful sometimes. Whenever we think we're right, we're pretty scary critters.

In many societies, kids are even more expendable than here. How can we look at that if we can't look at this without boiling over?

Anyone want to address, "What keeps YOU going?"?

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:21 AM (#187502)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Midchuck

How come:

1) ...there's a whole bunch of anti-gun posts on this thread, then someone who likes guns - or considers them a necessary evil for responsible citizens as long as the criminals and the government have them - speaks up, and there's a yell of "no more talk about guns, we've done that to death already?" One would almost think it's only right to talk about guns in Mudcat if you have the "right" (well, left, actually) opinion.

2) ...the First Amendment is sacred, absolute, and inviolable but the Second isn't? Who chooses? I blame TV's promotion of violence as normal and customary behavior as much as, or more than, I blame the weapon. (Note: it's been pointed out, perfectly correctly, that when the Bill of Rights was enacted, "arms" meant flintlock muskets and muzzle-loading brass cannon; and argued that those are the only arms that are protected. Okay, at that time "speech" meant face-to-face speech, and "the press" meant paper and ink. No electronic media. So should the government be free to restrict telephone or internet conversations as it wishes?)

Peter (who is rather fond of guns, but is terrified of guns in the hands of criminals, fools, untrained and unsupervised children....and of some police officers who are all three.)

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:32 AM (#187507)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Steve Latimer

I was truly saddened to see this headline in this mornings' paper. However I wasn't shocked. And as long as people continue to embrace an antiquated "right" they will continue to see these headlines, express, shock, and grief until the next time it happens.

Yes there have been incidents in the U.K., Australia and my home country of Canada, but nowhere near the number of those in the U.S.

I'm forty years of age and have never held a handgun, I've only seen them in police officers holsters. Funny, I haven't had to defend myself against any government including my own.

Get over the paranoia, move ahead a couple of centuries and ban hand guns. Prosecute Charlton and his cronies as accessories to this and all related crimes. Please.

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:33 AM (#187508)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Clinton Hammond2

What Keeps Me Going?

Ummm fatalism maybe... Maybe the knowledge that pain, loss, injustice ect ect are inescapable... So why let it get ya down... The world is a harsh bitch of a place to live, especailly infested with human beings, on of the nastiest beasts to ever roam it's crust.. and there's nothing I can do to change either the world or the human race... So I stick to my corner of it... And worry about the people I kmow and love and not the nameless faceless mazny that make up the statistics...
Sound Harsh? Ya... but it keeps me sane... and I learned along time ago, ya gotta look out for #1.. and expect everyone to do the same...

Tale New Age All Ya Want
Old Age'll Get Ya In The End

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:37 AM (#187514)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Again--

There are people all around each of us who are like this little boy and his parents. Your most powerful influence in the world is your ability to love.

And again--

There are people all around each of us who are like this little boy and his parents. Your most powerful influence in the world is your ability to love.

And again...

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:42 AM (#187518)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Lady McMoo

I believe actions speak louder than words or the evasions of politicians on this and can only but admire a musician/singer like Ani DiFranco who is prepared to hit the issue head on.

mcmoo (who doesn't live in the USA but in Belgium where we have our own brand of sick problem)

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:43 AM (#187519)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Lady McMoo

I believe actions speak louder than words or the evasions of politicians on this and can only but admire a musician/singer like Ani DiFranco who is prepared to hit the issue head on.

mcmoo (who doesn't live in the USA but in Belgium where we have our own brand of sick problem)

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:45 AM (#187522)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Lady McMoo

Sorry for the duplicate posting...

---

01 Mar 00 - 11:57 AM (#187528)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: bob schwarer

This whole thing begs the question.

Just where in hell does a 6 year old get the IDEA to kill someone?

Bob S.

---

01 Mar 00 - 12:04 PM (#187538)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Hyperabid

A knife is a tool, but a sword is a weapon A gun's for a fool to send souls up to heaven

50 years ago people left school at fifteen. 100 years ago they laboured in factories and mines as children.

In some countries it remains socially and economically necessary to have child labour. Fortunatley in the west it is not.

I've sat on rolling field watching and laughed and cried watching 50 year old men squeeze themselves into chain link armour and club each other with blunted swords to celebrate a time when our country was a frontier where you had to see to your own protection.

I havn't seen any lords or ladies wearing plate or carrying swords because they have rights set down in the Magna Carta.

Hyp

---

01 Mar 00 - 12:13 PM (#187543)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Troll

Bob S. From TV and the movies of course.

Most gun owners are responsible. They don't leave their guns out where kids can get at them. This fact notwithstanding, every time there is a tragedy of this kind there is a public outcry for more and tougher gun laws.

Why?

We don't enforce the laws that are on the books now. The government brags that the Brady Bill kept guns out of the hands of thousands of people with criminal records last year.And do you know how many of these criminals (who were breaking the law in attempting to but a gun) were prosecuted by the Justice Dept.?

Thats's right folks. ZERO!

So lets pass more feel-good laws.

S**T!

troll

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:03 PM (#187569)
Subject: In today's news, how many more? AGAIN!
From: Clinton Hammond2

And it happened againg today... Another nut has shot up a couple of fast food places....

Stick yer guns!

Afraid of yer government?? VOTE! and educate your population so that more than 35% of them vote!

And get chemical therapy fer yer paranoia!

The way of Rome, I tells ya.... the way of Rome...

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:20 PM (#187578)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amergin

A man shouts but no one listens and so he must shout LOUDER!!!!

PERSONALLY, I AM ASHAMED OF MYSELF FOR THE RANTINGS I HAVE PLACED ON A THREAD FOR WHICH THERE IS NO ROOM FOR POLITICAL VIEWS OF ANY KIND. YOU ALL SHOULD BE ASHAMED FOR YOURSELVES, TOO, BECAUSE YOU ALL ARE GULTY OF THE SAME THING. THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT A BABY GIRL WHO LOST HER LIFE. I HEREBY CALL A MOMENT OF PRAYER TO BLESS THE GROUND HER SPIRIT NOW TREADS, TO SAFELY BRING HER INTO THE NEXT LIFE!!!! Blessed be.

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:23 PM (#187579)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

This is a little dated because I wrote it when the Oregon school shootings happened. For those of you who have read it before, I apologise. It just seems there are enough newbies here who might find it of interest, esp. those asking about how children come to think that violence is an answer. There are no easy answers. Thank you, kat

"Teach children critical thinking"

Who could read or watch the news about the Springfield, Oregon school shootings, without tears in their eyes; without utter dismay and outrage in their hearts; without feeling an urgent and intense demand for immediate disarmament of our nation, as the school's wrestling coach, Gary Bowden, has called for?

Guns are indiscriminate. They have no consciousness which cares whose lives they end. Guns are made to kill. That is the main reason they are manufactured: to take down that trophy buck, that killer wolf, or, in some peoples' minds: the enemy, meaning anyone who wrongs them.

Advocates of gun ownership often cite statistics of automobile deaths versus death from guns, absurdly asking if we would outlaw cars as well for the killings they cause. Cars are made for benign purposes. Automakers do not draw their blueprints with killing specifically in mind. In crash tests, their goal is not to see how many test dummies a car can mow down within seconds upon arrival at a school or on the freeway. Even in cases of road rage, a gun is still the preferred weapon of choice; a vehicle is only the incentive or means to use the gun.

What really causes one to recoil in disbelief and dismay is wondering what kind of nation we are when children view violence as the only means of resolution. We cannot blame it on television. We are told grandparents grew up with very violent folk stories which did not, apparently, incite them to kill. Television executives do not plan their programs to deliberately incite violence. Studies claim the Japanese release their rage through their violent television programs and video games, rather than each other, attesting to their lower crime rate.

The way America watches television has changed. The way we watch our children has changed. In the fifties and sixties, watching TV used to be a family affair; everyone would gather `round to watch a favorite.

Even in the seventies, when my children were growing up, we, as parents, sat down with them to view what we considered to be good programming. We discussed and critiqued what they watched, making sure they didn't grow up thinking everything could be assuaged by gunfights, taking a pill, or colouring their hair a certain shade of blonde. They were restricted and monitored. They were allowed to watch adult programs, as long as there was interaction with us as to the truth and probability of content. Each of them has grown to become productive, peaceful sorts. None of them would choose a gun as a first, or even last, resort for problem-solving.

Today's children mostly watch tv on their own. If they come from the middle to upper classes they probably have a television in their room, while mom and dad each have their own to watch elsewhere in the house. Often, parents use television, willingly or unwillingly, as a baby-sitter or incentive to children; to quiet them down, to entertain them. With the isolation of each to their corners, comes poor or little judgement of what they see happening in programs of all hours of the day. To restrict certain shows to what is supposedly bedtime for children is ridiculous. When one can tune into soaps and vile talk shows such as Jerry Springer, there is little left which need be censored to later hours.

We do not need to monitor the content of television as much as teach parents and other childcare givers the importance of limits and discussion about what is offered for daily viewing. Children's minds are like sponges; they soak up everything they see and hear without discernment for reality. They need guidance and discipline; to be taught critical thinking skills and non-violent means of resolving their differences or grievances.

The far right would have us believe Armageddon is at our doorstep. They, and other groups which share their so-called "family values", would have us believe our schools are failing when they teach children self-esteem; to feel good about themselves; to think for themselves; to learn to talk things out instead of resort to violence. They would also have us believe our country's problems are the result of our teachers, the government, the "new world order", the demise of Hitler, the rise of liberalism in the sixties; in short, the fault of everyone else except the individual and themselves. Their paranoia and fear spills over into conventional society. Using scare tactics of volatile rhetoric, their sense of urgency spurs even the most non-violent persons to explore lethal ways of protection.

Each of us starts out in a nucleus of home. Some are better than others; most have some sort of conflict and/or dysfunctionality. Many of us rise above, overcome, and continue to progress, making it through our difficulties with the help of friends, family, and professionals.

Today's parents expect the government to protect their children from everything, including television. The v-chip came about because most parents are unwilling or unable to take the time to monitor what their children are doing, let alone what they watch on television. The irony is a v-chip is not critical; it does not teach children the discernment which they will need as they become adults. By not sitting down with them, by not commenting and discussing with them what they see on tv, at the movies, on the Internet, and in print, parents are abdicating their prime responsibility in raising their children. By not taking responsibility for the content of their daily lives, by not teaching them how to cope, parents have given up their position as the first line of defense against the insidious spread of violence which is portrayed in a society with such utter disregard for consequences.

While it is unrealistic to believe our country will ever totally disarm, even for the sake of the children, it is reasonable to expect parents to accept their responsibilities and rely on themselves in teaching their children the importance, tools, and skills of non-violent resolution.

Policepersons do not go to work everyday with the intent to use deadly force. Their goal is to be safe and to apprehend without lethal means. To that end, cops employ non-deadly force, such as nets shot from high pressure devices and stun guns. Technology is even being developed to produce "smart guns" which recognize a peace officer's thumb imprint; not firing if the whorls and swirls don't match. Couldn't this same technology be useful in developing non-lethal means of defense for society in general?

Someone once told me a can of spray paint is a better defensive weapon than a gun, especially for a woman, as women are usually smaller than their assailants. A well-aimed shot of paint to the face immediately focuses the killer/rapist/robber's attention on their own problem. Their hands fly up to the eyes, thus releasing their victim and/or their weapon. While they are thus occupied and possibly blinded, one has an excellent chance of getting away or calling for help. Most of the children who have killed children, especially at school, seem to have come from families which keep guns in their homes, for whatever reason. Too bad they didn't all just have a paint party, instead.

Copyright May 22, 1998 by OoBraughLoo Press

all rights reserved

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:27 PM (#187582)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

It's gonna get worse, gang.

The papers are up to now being VERY cautious NOT to say that the shooter was black and the victim was white. But all the context points that way. Wait 'til it comes out plainly. (Jeez, if only it wouldn't!) We are in for another racist deluge. On top of everything else.

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:52 PM (#187600)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Dear Amergin and fellow Mudcatters,

Please accept my most sincere apologies for my last posting. I am sorry. Amergin, you are right, this was about the tragedy.

There is one thing I have learned about Mudcatters in general, though, and that is they 1) choose their own path to take in a thread, no matter what anyone else says, and, 2) they are in general very caring and passionate people who are bound to discuss such difficult issues in an attempt to understand such horrors.

It was naive of me to believe the topic of guns etc. would not come up in here and unfair to expect everyone to just go read the old threads and not make a comment.

May all the families involved in this terrible tragedy find peace and undertanding in their hearts and may they find solace from the pain or horror. Blessed Be.

Canoer, no offense, but I hope you are wrong. Have heard anything to confirm this?

Thanks,

kat

---

01 Mar 00 - 01:54 PM (#187601)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

And that should read "from the pain and horror." Sorry...

---

01 Mar 00 - 02:00 PM (#187603)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,aldus

There is not a nation on earth that does not have a problem with handguns...there is not a democratic nation which has as a big a problem as the USA... We do not possess poison for the purpose of sport, we do not race cars on city streets for "fun",we do not allow children access to things that harm them...but we teach them to shoot at age five and brag about how responsible we are.....What is wrong in America.

---

01 Mar 00 - 02:08 PM (#187604)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

Nope, that's why I was careful to say it's drawn from context. But the context is so familiar. As reported: The kid's father and grandfather and uncle are doing or have done time. The home is a drug house "flophouse" as reported by the neighbors. It is in the poorest part of town. The kid is neglected, prone to violence, one of the "seen it coming" types. The uncle interviewed has a first name in a style common to black people around here, as is the name of the neighbor interviewed.

I don't for one minute believe that that description definitively excludes everyone but a black family (broken family in this case) -- but the names, i think, ice the cake. AND DO I EVER HOPE I AM WRONG! I'm going to work in a few minutes, where I've been for 27 years, 60 miles south of Flint, a thoroughly integrated work force -- and I don't wanna have to deal with this, not at all. But it would be foolish not to be ready.

By the way -- kat -- thanks for putting this online. I think we are doing just what others do -- pile up the teddy bears, the flowers, the notes, the crayon pictures, to say goodbye and ease our grief. We just can't go to Flint to do it.

Larry C.

---

01 Mar 00 - 02:14 PM (#187607)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: catspaw49

Well the guy in Pittsburgh was just taken into custody. 5 people shot and in critical condition, possibly 1 already dead.........wonder how this would've played out with a ball bat?

Spaw

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01 Mar 00 - 03:03 PM (#187628)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Dammit, one is dead and the others are critical. What the fuck is wrong with this country??? You are right, Spaw, bats it is.

Larry C, you are welcome, I like that image of us putting up the mementos. Good luck with cool heads all round at work.

I am sorry phoaks, this is just insane. Like Peg I grew up shooting and am very familiar with guns, had the same rules about not pointing toy guns, etc., but the world has changed. It is not safe to have such widespread gun ownership anymore. And, now we will foot the bill to support the bastard who did this today for the rest of his miserable life.

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01 Mar 00 - 03:18 PM (#187635)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

Not bad Spaw --

"THE COUNTRY HAS GONE BATS."

Swings, doesn't it?

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01 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM (#187639)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: bob schwarer

I hear you, Troll. Our Gang in DC pass laws that they have no intention of enforcing. Pass laws and make the masses feel good. It's as if they are hoping for more shootings so they can pass more feel-good laws and score more points. "Look what a good job I'm doing".

Me cynical? Nah, not me. Just the reality.

Bob S.

---

01 Mar 00 - 03:55 PM (#187650)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Amergin

Just a shout into the ocean's searching crests.

---

01 Mar 00 - 04:49 PM (#187697)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I remember seeing some children, about 9 or 10 years old, playing in the woods near where I live. They were playing with toy guns. One of the boys was telling another one off - saying something like this: "Look, you're supposed to shoot people with your gun, not hit them with it. If you use it to hit him you might hurt him."

Most of the time children can distinguish real from pretend, in real life. But most of the time isn't all the time. I doubt if running around shouting bang bang desensitises children to violence. Maybe watching movies with special effects might. And paradoxically enough, so can movies which sanitise the effects of being shot.

Children kill people in two sets of circumstances:

There are the tragic accidents - maybe with a gun that's been left lying around, maybe a car, maybe something poisonous, or a fall from some seemingly safe place.

And there are the occasions where children set out to kill, maybe, one hopes, with some confusion about how real is real, but in some cases with full intention. In England the case of the two boys whom killed little James Bulger fall into that category. And this case, where the little boy who did the killing was hardly older than James Bulger appears to have been another.

Desperately sad, and fortunately very rare, in young children anyway. But casting around for someone to blame doesn't help. What is needed is explanations, and understanding of what had gone wrong, and of the lessons to be learnt from something that can't be undone.

What we get instead are people looking for someone to blame and turning their backs on the circumsances that damaged young children so badly they could do something like that.

Sp we see mobs of screaming people virtually calling for 10 year old children to be lynched (as in Lioverpool at the time of the James Bulger trial); vengeful talk about parents who have failed to carry the responsibility they should, for all kinds of reasons; anger at the gun lobby, who are more a symptom of a sick society than a cause of it. (There are gun lobbies everywhere - in most places they are just a fringe set of hobbyists, a bit like like trainspotters or morris dancers.)

Getting angry doesn't help in these kinds of circumstances. We probably can't help but talk it through, even when it might be better to leave it alone right now, as Amergin suggests. What is needed in this kind of situation is first to mourn, then to find out the facts, find out what might help; then to do it.

I don't know why. but this seems fitting. Put it with "the teddy bears, the flowers, the notes, the crayon pictures, to say goodbye and ease our grief" :

My heart is joyful,
My heart flies away singing,
Under the trees of the forest,
Forest our home and our mother.
In my net I have caught
A little bird.
My heart is caught in the net,
In the net with the bird.

This comes from a book on my shelf next to the computer called "The Unwritten Song" - an anthology of "Poetry of the primitive and traditional peoples of the world", edited by Willard Trask. It's from West Africa, and its "A song sung by a woman while giving birth". From a pygmy community.

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01 Mar 00 - 05:02 PM (#187707)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Thanks, Kevin, thoughful as always and a beautiful song that does seem very fitting and appropriate. Helps to let the tears flow.

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01 Mar 00 - 05:52 PM (#187741)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: bob schwarer

Well our local news had a woman on who said the Pittsburg fellow was just after white people. This guy is trying to start a race war.

Bob S.

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01 Mar 00 - 10:59 PM (#187907)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

Time to change the litter box, again.

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02 Mar 00 - 09:40 AM (#188084)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Mooh

Please don't shoot me for this... Much is made of the Americanization of the world through various media. I'm no American, and Americans from this vantage point should not be proud of the "example" they set for the world to follow by supporting the right to kill each other, which is what bearing arms has become. What of peace, love and understanding? If you melted down all your guns maybe you could make enough prison bars to surround the people who contribute to your mass communal suicide. You'd seriously rather let people kill each other rather than allowing peace to reign? I'm not asking you to give up anything else besides premature death. In the meantime I pray your descendants will read their history and say "What was THAT all about?" Guns are not knowledge, faith, kindness, phallic symbol, hair or breast implant, or logical. Oh yeah, and get this straight, Guns AND people kill people! Quit making excuses. Presidents and school children, family and strangers for heaven's sake, what are you thinking? You'd all be alot easier to love if some of you weren't such a threat. Love your neighbour. Love, Your Neighbour.

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02 Mar 00 - 10:25 AM (#188104)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Peg

thanks Mooh.
Peg
ugly American who wants to beautify the impression the world has of us

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02 Mar 00 - 10:32 AM (#188108)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Mooh

Further to my last rant...We Canadians were shocked when we heard of our own school shooting last year, and you know, the dead kid was the son of a minister in that town. Fifty years ago my Dad was in that minister's job, so the shooting had this earie sort of twist for me. Controlling guns ain't any different than controling highway speeds, ya know. It's all designed to protect us all. My last word on this, I hope. Love your neighbour.

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02 Mar 00 - 10:58 AM (#188122)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Midchuck

"Controlling guns ain't any different than controling highway speeds, ya know. It's all designed to protect us all."

And would work just about as well. Have you compared numbers of auto deaths to numbers of gun deaths recently? Even in the "gun-crazy" US?

Yes, a lot more people concede that cars are necessary than that guns are necessary. But are cars capable of 120+ miles per hour necessary in a country where the max speed limit is about 75? And does anybody agitate seriously for horsepower limits or speed governors?

Hypocrisy rules!

Peter.

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02 Mar 00 - 11:05 AM (#188128)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: M. Ted (inactive)

I haven't stopped crying since I heard about this--grew up in Michigan, had friends from Mt Morris, have a little girl who goes to off to school every morning, been to the McDonald's in Wilkinsburg (I saw it on TV)

I am totally fed up with the sanctimonious among you, who look at this as an opportunity to stand on a soapbox and tout your favorite cause, as well as the moralizers, and the finger pointers (especially those of you who are proud not to be Americans at a time like this)--

Don't you think that I as a father, saw my own little girl lying on the cold floor, slowing bleeding to death?

Don't you think that the little boy is my own child, as well? His father taken away from him, evicted from his home, his mother forced to leave him, and his brother, with an uncle who lived in a crack house?

Don't you think I feel his anger?

Why do you keep insulting me? Do you think that I am so stupid as to believe he didn't act out of anger? Do you think I will believe you when you say that violence on TV is to blame? Or that the proper legislation would have kept this from happening?

I sometimes believe that we are not really able to think, or even really feel at all--it occasionally crosses my mind that the inquisitors were right, and we are only puppets whose words and actions are controlled by demons--

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02 Mar 00 - 11:44 AM (#188153)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

One of the problems of living in a very rich and technologically over-advanced country is that we tend to expect instant answers. Instant coffee. Instant frozen dinners. Instant communication. But I seriously doubt we'll get instant answers on this one. Gun control? The gun was a stolen gun, traded for crack at the boy's 'home.'

I am surprised that so little has been said about poverty and its attendant degradations. If once in a while a middle class person is murdered, the murder rate in poorest areas is more on the order of a war zone. For a myriad of reasons … and all based on (enforced) poverty. IMNSHO. Fix that instantly. Anyone?

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02 Mar 00 - 11:45 AM (#188155)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Steve Latimer

M. Ted,

I too am a father of two small children. I sure feel the pain of the families who have lost, I have visions of my own children as the victims.

I very rarely get on a soapbox, but in answer to your question, proper legislation WOULD have kept this from happening.

I'm not saying that this could never happen to my children, sure there are criminals in Canada with guns, there is always the risk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But the chance of us ever having a gun effect our lives are so slight that they are incalculable.

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02 Mar 00 - 12:07 PM (#188164)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Midchuck

As they are in my own life. I live in the only state in the US where I can carry a handgun, openly or concealed, whenever I want, with no permit of any sort. There are simply no legal restrictions.

I own handguns, and know how to shoot them. But I don't carry one simply because there's no need. I've never been seriously threatened with any sort of violence, beyond that of a stupid drunk in a bar, in my adult life. Vermont, with some of the most free-and-easy gun laws in the country, has the third lowest per capita violent crime rate of any state in the country, after the two Dakotas, last I checked. The annual homicides in Vermont would equal one weekend with a full moon in any large US city. (And more of them involve rifles or shotguns than handguns. Or parents shaking their babies too hard, to stop them crying...)

Yet if I lived in a major city, I'd feel a real need to carry, and couldn't, legally, because I would need a permit that I'd have to have friends in high places, or know the right person to bribe, to get.

Two other thoughts. Switzerland and Mexico. Switzerland has a 100% militia. Everyone's got a gun in the house. And ammo. But the murder rates are as low as other european countries with no guns. Because everyone is trained in proper use of those guns, and the country does not have a culture that glorifies violence. In Mexico, guns are restricted, and most people are too poor to afford them anyway. But they manage a murder rate to rival the US's, making do almost entirely with knives.

The number of guns in the US is a symptom, not a cause, of the culture of violence. The mass media, and the number of people who are poor and can't get out of the poverty cycle, are the causes.

Ask a doctor about treating symptoms rather than illnesses.

I'll climb off the soapbox yet again. But I'll get back on as often as I see simplistic solutions to complex problems.

Peter.

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02 Mar 00 - 12:19 PM (#188167)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: JamesJim

One could have predicted where this thread would lead and how long it would be. Passions run deep, especially where small, innocent, defenseless children are involved. Sadly, both children fit that catagory and I believe we should be praying for both.

When I saw in the paper that the young boy lives in a "flop house," where drug dealers come and go and where guns are left about like candy, it all began to come into focus. It's a clear indication of where the problem lies. I truly do not know, but I would have to wonder how many of our neighbors (other countries)have a similar drug problem. I sincerely believe we could confiscate all guns on any kind and size, but as long as we continue to have a drug problem, senseless killing will continue in the U.S. What is the answer? I wish I knew, but I doubt that it has a lot to do with guns. Jim

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02 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM (#188168)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: katlaughing

It goes way beyond mass media and poverty. The children killed and their killers, in Columbine, were white and middle class, as were most of the other victims of school shootings in America. It starts at home, either through neglect of poverty OR wealth, indifference, prejudice, violence, and a myriad of other negative influences. The first six years of a child's life are the most important for their development, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally.

We tell parents they have to have their child safely restrained in a car; we take their children away if they hit them or toehrwise are negligent. We do not allow operation of a vehicle without a license obtained through testing and then, no one can drive a car without proper inspections and licensing. While I doubt that this country will ever embrace total eradication of guns, it is not unreasonable to expect the same rigorous requirements for owning one.

America is such a huge country, with so many people of such diverse backgrounds, we will probably never agree on these types of social/emotional issues, but while we debate and struggle towards a resolution, another child, parent, brother, sister, etc. gets killed.

My dad said once, after a school shooting, that if the teacher had been allowed to have a gun in their desk, they would have been able to stop the killing. I do not agree. I don't think teachers should have to be policepersons in their own schools, and, if that ever happens, I do believe the teacher would be villified for shooting a child. That scenario could lead to a mistaken shooting such as Amadou Diallo.

Society is evolving and I pray that there will come a time when fearful people will not feel the need for weapons.

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02 Mar 00 - 02:01 PM (#188205)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: BlueJay

I tend to agree with you, Kat. I don't have guns, but have enjoyed shooting sports at times. Mostly I just don't think about them much. I'm not too concerned with wackos,(neither jackbooted government thugs, nor terrorists), coming for me and my family. I'm fairly moderate in all this, and I think BOTH sides tend to go too far. I want the right to buy a gun should the desire arise, and I would not mind in the slightest registering it or waiting a few hours or days for a background check. And I bet if it came to a popular vote on all the choices, there are a LOT more people like me, than on both extremes of the issue. Hug your kid. Take an interest. Raise them with compassion and they'll be alright. Moderation in all things. As for self defense, Maybe I'll get a concealed weopon permit. I don't have a gun, but in my small town, word will travel fast that I have a permit, so no one should hassle me *BG*.

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02 Mar 00 - 03:29 PM (#188264)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Mooh

Peter/Midchuck, I read your comments with interest, and agreement, but I never implied that speed limits work. I happen to be one of those leftwingers who think cars are too many, too fast, too dirty, and too seductive, much like sugar, sex, guitars and guns. The difference for me is, like cars, guns can be controlled, and should be controlled more, everywhere! Like some other contributors to this thread, I've got kids, and no guns. They don't go together. You are right, hypocracy rules, but it doesn't have to. Thanks for your ear. Mooh

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02 Mar 00 - 03:45 PM (#188274)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Maybe if we can't sing about a subject, we aren't ready to be heard yet.

Some of you are shouting at each other, even if you didn't use all caps.

I am whispering the following, I just don't know how to make small italics yet.

This is not the most likely place to find your enemies.

My enemy is Evil. My Enemy's enemy is my friend.

Friends work together. They stand beside one another and face the enemy together. They don't waste time turning to yell at each other. They know and count on each other's best.

Again-- There are people all around each of us who are like this little boy and his parents. Your most powerful influence in the world is your ability to love.

Where is love like that reflected in this thread? I would like to stand beside it if I could see it among the yelling.

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02 Mar 00 - 04:34 PM (#188304)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Lady McMoo

Just a question from a simple European... Knowing what guns are designed for, why would anybody in their right mind actually WANT to own or carry one?

Or am I just being plain stupid and missing something?

mcmoo

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02 Mar 00 - 04:44 PM (#188314)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

Praise, dear, please consider that we are yelling and struggling just exactly because we love. We love our kids today and theirs of tomorrow and we desperately want them to have a better world. Just because we have different ideas about HOW -- we are still all very much together on the WHY. I believe.

--Larry

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02 Mar 00 - 04:48 PM (#188316)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Canoer,

How come that isn't coming through?

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02 Mar 00 - 04:52 PM (#188320)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST

THANKFULLY, a child can be charged with murder and tried as an adult in Michigan.

Justice will be served.

A 1997 law allows a child of any age who commits a serious felony to be prosecuted as an adult under certain conditions. A judge must consider the type of offense, the juvenile's previous criminal record, the child's understanding of the crime, culpability, level of participation and ability to assist an attorney in his defense.

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02 Mar 00 - 04:57 PM (#188327)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

Praise -- partly you need ears to hear it. Partly, just like the first-grader, we aren't well-developed in our ways of handling frustration. My 2 cents, anyway.

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02 Mar 00 - 05:16 PM (#188344)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

Mcmoo, such a basic question. I believe we over here feel threatened much more acutely than Europeans (at least some, maybe most) know. Occasionally my son's school has exchange students, sometimes exchange professors, from Britain, France, Denmark. We warn them very very strongly about where and when they can and can't go safely. The majority of them totally disbelieve us and go walking around wherever they want.

One day we are going to have a very tragic incident. But the point is: they don't believe it can possibly be as bad as we say it is. They just can't believe it.

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02 Mar 00 - 05:19 PM (#188345)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Yes, canoer, I can hear it from many of the postings, even some of the most painful of them. I'm straining to hear it in ALL of them but in some of them it just isn't there, it's just shouting. Maybe it's there after they are done shouting, maybe they go hug their kids when they are done, but it's still shouting here where maybe something else would be more satisfying.

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02 Mar 00 - 05:32 PM (#188358)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Clinton Hammond2

Guest...

The child is NOT bing charged... and rightly so... but I think his parents and uncle should be taken out behind the barn and beat, or bitch-slapped from one coast to the other for letting this poor innocent grow up in such a shitty environment...

Ya need a licence to get a dog, but any meshback can have as many kids as they want... that ain't right! I'd love to live in a world where people would have to PROVE they are capable of being good parents before they are allowed to breed! It'd do wonders for North American Over-population... And our overall I.Q.'d shoot through the roof!

Good think I don't run the world eh!! LOL!!!

{~`

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02 Mar 00 - 05:36 PM (#188364)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Still listening...

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02 Mar 00 - 05:39 PM (#188366)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: canoer

Well, I never said there weren't exceptions.

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02 Mar 00 - 05:41 PM (#188368)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

c, you have just received the biggest smile of my day.

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02 Mar 00 - 05:47 PM (#188375)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I don't think a wake is a place for a soapbox. Quiet puzzled discussion in between the songs and the stories, yes. But shouting and fighting, and trying to force other peopkle to agree with you, no.

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02 Mar 00 - 05:50 PM (#188378)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: wysiwyg

Peopkle who need peopkle... are the luckiest peopkle in the world.

OK, but a cheap joke to relieve tension was the best I could do, sorry!

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02 Mar 00 - 06:29 PM (#188412)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: M. Ted (inactive)

Steve Latimer,

What on earth are you talking about? Nearly everything that happened in the chain of events that put that little boy in school with a loaded gun was against the law--and everthing that happened to put the little boy in the frame of mind to act as he did showed a blatant negligence of duty by everyone from the legal system to the school system, to the church and to the family--what do you need new rules for. when people don't follow the old ones--

Everyone else--

Do you really want to know what I think? I don't think that the world has gone crazy--I think it has been crazy all along, and that you all hide behind your piety and morality and pretend that this is happening because the world hasn't embraced your cause of the month--

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02 Mar 00 - 07:59 PM (#188472)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: kendall

Anyone ever read "The Decline And Fall of the Roman Empire?"

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02 Mar 00 - 08:38 PM (#188492)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Still more soapboxes.

The mind of a bigot is like the pupil,of the eye. The more light you pour into it, the more in contracts. Oliver Wendell Holmes said that.

Nobody ever changed their mind because they were beaten in an argument. I said that.

The Angel that presided oe'r my birth
Said "Little creature, form'd of Joy and Mirth,
"Go love without the help of any Thing on Earth."

William Blake said that.

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02 Mar 00 - 09:27 PM (#188525)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,of a GUEST

Dear GUEST thank you for the invite

Yes, I have Gibbon's "Decline" and also Darwin's "Origin"

Some things are flawed from the very start AND YOU KNOW IT!!!

~ A lopsided blow on bubble gum

~ A song quartet beginnning in simultaneous major and minor keys.

~ A six year old bully-beast.

In every case you perform retro-active-abortion.

When a product is inherently defective you destroy it.

According to the Michigan and Natural law the thing must be exterminated. Social-Darwinism demands that we remove the genes from the community pool. Let us shake the shackling leaches off and move forward.

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02 Mar 00 - 09:37 PM (#188530)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred. cowardice."

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02 Mar 00 - 10:01 PM (#188541)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Troll

Praise,this is for you.I will post NO MORE on this thread because I can see it going nowhere but in the direction of hurt and bad feelings and I will not be a party to that.

troll

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02 Mar 00 - 10:30 PM (#188549)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: bflat

There is the obvious tragedy of the death of the little girl. There is another in the future of the boy who shot her. A child of six years can't understand what happened and what would lie ahead. What will become of him? Must we loose two children? What are we going to do to teach: Thou shall not kill? Isn't this our responsibility? Isn't this as important an issue as any? Who can do it as well as the folk community that has always sung out when social change was needed? Write your songs and sing them!!!!

The following is an observation: My six year old grandson talks about Pokemon and riding his two wheeler and his guitar and his pets and maybe school. Now he's learning anger management in the classroom. To me it's a euphemism for teaching respect taught to me by my parents and my church. When I got to school I already knew how to behave. That's about it.

bflat

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02 Mar 00 - 11:14 PM (#188564)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: GUEST,_gargoyle

A lot of insight within this thread.

Well done PHOAKS!!

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03 Mar 00 - 10:44 AM (#188745)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Steve Latimer

M. Ted,

I'm talking about the general availability and acceptance of handguns. Even though everything that led up to this was illegal including the fact that the gun used was stolen, it must have been originally purchased legally by a person who believes in the right to bear arms for whatever reason. They too probably went on about proper handling of weapons, teaching their children about handling guns safely etc., etc.

Long story short, this gun and thousands of others ended up stolen and in the hands of criminals. Do you really think that it wasn't replaced by the original owners only to start the cycle again?

We are supposed to admit to and learn from our mistakes, but in the case of guns too many people get up on their haunches and defend their constitutional right to these mistakes.

I have yet to see anyone say how their life has been improved by owning a handgun.

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03 Mar 00 - 11:01 AM (#188750)
Subject: RE: BS: In today's news - rant - how many more?
From: Clinton Hammond2

I'm with Troll!!!

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