01 Mar 00 - 12:25 PM (#187551) Subject: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: AndyG BruceO asked in another thread (Lyr/Chords Req: Lancashire folk songs) for a translation of the dialect ballad Warrington Fair. I'm neither a dialect speaker or writer, but I was born and bred in Lancashire so I'm putting up my understanding of the lyric and hoping that other Lanky's out there will chip in with their takes on the song.
AndyG |
01 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM (#187553) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: AndyG For what it's worth here's a take on the first 30 lines. Bruce O's commentary in bold My interpretations in italics my guesses are underlined
Notes:
Warrington Fair
001: Hoorry me gentles, an inny wun tarry,
003: He sowd is Mere Berry at Warritt'n Fere, (Warrington Fair)
005: Baw when he coom whom, e toud is weif Greace (came home)
007: He towd her god monny a mad farrant teele (many a mad silly tale)
009: Baw when i' good yornst hoo soe noo munny coome (earnest, truly she saw no money came)
011: Hoo thrust im tuth Hillock wo siche a thwack,
013: Thou whoor, caw he, int(?)l(?)e lemme rise,
015: Ah' Monn's Cwote wur a grey, ea good thrum-hat, (he had a good)
017: His bond was tood, with a Congorton-Pwoint, (band was tied)
019: His doublit wus blue, an his breekes wurr green
021: Hor k(R?N?)om wurn aw brown, e spike spon new
023: A goodly brode gurdle, a lether was gurt. (broad girdle, of leather)
025: Aw doon wo brass=buckoos, at mede siche a shaw (made such a show)
027: Baw how N(R?)etts he, caw hoo, ar where doozy dwell! (name? does he)
029: For why, caw he, I cowd naw for shawm (could not for shame)
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01 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM (#187768) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: GUEST,Bruce O. Thanks. I think I got the sense of most of it. In line 8 I think it's a stock fictitious character named, 'Thomas-good-ale', brother of 'John Barleycorn' and 'Mas Maut' (malt). Bimilikins is obviously related to an old mild oath, 'Berlady' (by our lady) As for describing horses, I don't know 17th century terminology that well. In early copies of "Scewball" 'cattle' are mentioned where it's obvious that they are horses.
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02 Mar 00 - 08:14 AM (#188049) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: harpgirl ...thanks AndyG and BruceO...very interesting....harpgirl |
02 Mar 00 - 09:23 AM (#188078) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: AndyG Bruce, I'd assumed from your comments you'd got most of the sense, but I couldn't see a way of discerning which bits you'd got and which bits you wanted help with, so the easy way is to do the whole lyric. Also I wanted other UK Northerners to give input on their understanding of stuff I might get wrong or fail to interpret. As I said I don't speak Lancs. dialect I've just heard a lot of it.
here's a take on the lines 31 - 50.
Notes:
031: Bawth' inwost oth' reidinesse azzee hea, (azzee? also in l. 43)
033: Ten Grece hoo wor angry, baw yet hoo lough. (but yet she laughed)
035: Bot as it feel out oth' tother dea,
037: Nyeam Rondle, caw he, I he soud my good Mere,
039: Gilbert, caw he, who soudnyer too? (soydnyer?)
041: Knoni naw who yo ken souder too senny (?)
043: Ba'wth munny's as fure, azzee yore honds, ar mine, (azzee?)
045: He lookt like a grethly onnist mon's Son, (greatly honest man's son)
047: He gan ma a lunch on a donty snig-py,
049: Baw Grece, hoo to Warritn aw wonsday betime, (she to Warrington)
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02 Mar 00 - 09:52 AM (#188091) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: MMario "cattle" was used at one time as a generic term basically meaning "livestock" - which in some cultures included indentured servants, serfs and/or slaves. I believe the term "cattle" was used even as late as Regency England in regard to teams of carriage horses. |
02 Mar 00 - 10:14 PM (#188547) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: Malcolm Douglas Out of interest, there is a small guide to Lancashire Dialect at TROUBLE AT' MILL's site, here. (http://www.btinternet.com/~troubleatmill/speak.htm) Malcolm |
03 Mar 00 - 02:06 AM (#188614) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: GUEST,Bruce O. Here's a list that I made a few years ago of words that I couldn't identify or was uncertain about. Bear in mind that this is my reading of 17th century handwriting, and I'm no expert. What looks like a wavy line is some combination of m's, n's, u's and v's, and can be very difficult to figure out. c and r are very similar. o's and e's sometimes can't be distinguished, so most often, but maybe not in Lancashire, hoo is hee, and shoo is shee. Script ff for F is common and often misread, but H is quite similar. R, K and B are quite similar also. Where I have Kibbo in one line, a later version has Ribbo, which doesn't make sense.
word / line
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06 Mar 00 - 07:18 AM (#190292) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: AndyG Sorry I thought I'd posted this on Friday, anyway here's a take on the lines 50 - 68. Bruce O's commentary in bold My interpretations in italics my guesses are underlined
051: An there hoo contiunu't for five Markit deas,
053: Bot eith won as hoo met oo sicher a parell, (each one as she met with such an apparel)
055: Sos, ho my good Freend, now doony naw wott, (now do you not know)
057: Ten aw mon lough wo might, & Mean,
059: For hoo gadds up an down, here an there
061: Ten wared Grece both pele & wan,
063: Bot as hoo was resting her sell in a Rawm,
065: Gon wared Grece bwoth blithe, & merry,
067: An for fear hoo shud misse on im hoo wus soe gloppen
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06 Mar 00 - 07:05 PM (#190669) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: Snuffy In the OED lope/loup are given as variants of leap, and loppen could be the past participle of lope (I lope, I loped, I have loppen). Lope also means to run, or run away, and is related to modern German laufen and I think Dutch also has loopen, both of which are the normal words for "run" |
12 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM (#2364168) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: GUEST,J I don't really know if somebody will ever read this as the posts above date from 2000! Anyway, I'm currently working on this ballad for a presentation at a Conference. I see the version you've been trying to 'decipher' is that at Bruce Olson's Web Site. After a thorough comparison of this transcription with the original MS, I realised there were (apparently) some spelling mistakes which could be misleading. As for some of the dialect words you don't know, I could give you a clue. Should Andy G or Snuffy ever read this, drop me a line and we can discuss about this. |
21 Feb 09 - 03:35 AM (#2572326) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: GUEST,janice I was born in warrington surname swindells (some sort of reference to swine in the dell)? I always thought that a snig was a worm? My dad used to say "Don't stand on a snig because you will make it rain"?? I live in australia now but I am very interested in this sort of thing. |
21 Feb 09 - 07:10 AM (#2572381) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: Marilyn I was brought up in Widnes which is only a stone's throw away from Warrington. A snig to us was a leech. There was a brook running through the fields at the back of our house and, if we went paddling in it, we came out with 'snigs' attached to our legs! |
23 Feb 09 - 06:01 AM (#2573568) Subject: RE: Warrington Fair: FAO BruceO From: sid Ey Up! - "snig" seems to have come to mean anything slimy and wiggly! The most common Lancashire definition is "eel", still in use in some quarters, which then makes sense in "Snig Pie". I've been singing this song for years and know what it's about. I would be very interested in the "original MS" mentioned by GuestJ, in June, as the earliest version I've found is in J O Halliwell's 'Dictionary of Archaic & Provincial Words' from the early C19th. It seems to be him that gave it the date of 1548, and all the other Victorian song collectors followed him! I can't prove it but I have a lingering doubt that he may not be right. |