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07 Mar 00 - 07:41 PM (#191465) Subject: Education is more than... From: Caitrin I've been working on an essay for the UNC-Asheville honors program, and I thought it would be interesting to hear mudcatter answers. I was asked to complete this sentence: Education is more than merely training the mind; it is... |
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07 Mar 00 - 07:50 PM (#191471) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos The bringing out of the ability of the person: to understand data, to obtain data, to know good data from bad, to evaluate importances, perceive omissions, and above all exercise judgement in dealing with realities of all kinds. A |
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07 Mar 00 - 07:51 PM (#191473) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Callie ... acknowledging that the world will not always come to us, and that we can investigate all the wonderful and diverse facets of life. |
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07 Mar 00 - 08:13 PM (#191492) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos The showing -- to the living -- of the many faces of love's life, and life's love for itself. |
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07 Mar 00 - 08:43 PM (#191515) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos ...inculcating in the young the ability to get answers on a Mudcat thread? |
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07 Mar 00 - 08:55 PM (#191529) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Education is...Spending your whole bleeding life studying and never getting to experience the sort of life everyone else around you has. You can blow people away on Jeopardy and reap lots of academic honors like I have, but you become emotionally stunted on the inside, like some deranged Canio the clown from "Pagliacci" getting top grades and showing everyone how talented you are, when on the inside all you are is a depressed tormented soul looking for some escape, to discover the life that so many around you take for granted. It's getting up 6am and coming home at 5pm, having no friends, and spending what little free time you do have rotting your mind infront of a computer screen. Hey, but that's just me. --Mbo |
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07 Mar 00 - 09:04 PM (#191534) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Art Thieme Education is much more than school. Art Thieme |
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07 Mar 00 - 09:17 PM (#191540) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Mbo -- what i s the state of your real and whole education, the bringing out of your highest powers? Wherefore stunted? What does it serve you to restrain yourself from a little risk, a little swimming in passion shared, or surrendering to another human being? Start with one step -- not a Harley, but a soap box racer. Get some wind in your hair and some flies on your teeth. |
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07 Mar 00 - 09:43 PM (#191550) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 Amos, the "inculcating" reminds me of a favorite quote re: education----"The inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent." I don't know Caitrin.....Ideally education IS training the mind for a lifelong learning process. But at its best, it should inspire and charge you with a passion. It should trouble your thoughts and challenge your beliefs...and give YOU the ability to continually question yourself and challenge your beliefs. It would be the torch of our culture; a fervor for knowledge, a respect of our history, a curiosity of the unknown, and an enthusiastic rush toward deeper and greater understanding. Sometimes I think my torch done fizzled out. But then I read your and Meebo's and some other postings of our younger members and I realize that the future is not just within you, but through your inspiration and excitement, there's a sputter or two left in me. HEY!!! I know Jack Shit!!! Lives 3 blocks down, brown house on the left. Spaw |
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07 Mar 00 - 10:00 PM (#191561) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Damn! The Son of Humanity lives yet! Lo, a sputter o' celestial fire from the Limpest Wick of All! Well said, Spaw! You're a Daniel, when you turn to it...Glad you have rejoined the ranks of the living, instead of living among the rank. :>) |
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07 Mar 00 - 10:06 PM (#191569) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: McGrath of Harlow Education is setting the mind and the person free. |
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07 Mar 00 - 10:06 PM (#191570) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Bill in Alabama Damn fine job, Catspaw! The lifelong passion for learning is probably what Cardinal Newman had in mind when he wrote that education enables folks to enjoy life more. It's much more than amassing facts and getting grades; it's learning to question and to evaluate everything for oneself, and in doing so one develops the broad perspective and the tolerance which allows those with an education to get so much more from living. I'm just repeating your comments, so I reckon I'll quit. Damn fine job. |
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07 Mar 00 - 10:10 PM (#191575) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: MMario Education is not just training the mind, but learning to live. |
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08 Mar 00 - 12:46 AM (#191689) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: MK ....is EVERYTHING...you DON'T learn in school. |
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08 Mar 00 - 12:55 AM (#191696) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: katlaughing Education is what they try to teach you, but you don't really learn....until you leave school and live in the real world. It can give you the tools, but the application is up to you. Make of it what you will. katlaughinghighschooldropout! |
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08 Mar 00 - 01:03 AM (#191702) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Hagbardr Kat, I have you beat by one. I dropped out of high school AND college! Hagbard |
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08 Mar 00 - 01:09 AM (#191705) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Everything I ever needed to know in life I learned from Star Trek! --Mbo |
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08 Mar 00 - 01:24 AM (#191713) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Wrong lifetime, Mbo... |
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08 Mar 00 - 01:35 AM (#191716) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: katlaughing Well, Hagbard! I guess I might say that, too, except that I just chose college courses for fun and never went for anything degree-wise.*BG* Only one out of five kids without that coveted parchment. According to the dire threats heard in childhood, I should've been "slinging hash" all of my life. Doncha know, I was that stubborn I had to prove them wrong and, at one time, make more money than any of them?!! |
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08 Mar 00 - 01:43 AM (#191721) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: The Shambles Spending the best part of your life in institutions obtaining unsless pieces of paper that no one understands or ever looks at. Instead of learning how to live and how not to repeat all of history's mistakes. |
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08 Mar 00 - 02:22 AM (#191727) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: simon-pierre ...propaganda. Training to obedience and boredom. (at school I mean) |
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08 Mar 00 - 02:26 AM (#191728) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: simon-pierre ... well, finally, we're really talking about training of the mind... |
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08 Mar 00 - 02:37 AM (#191729) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Crowhugger Someone said to the effect that "Education is what you still know after you've forgotten everything you learned in school." I'm glad to see that the learnèd poser of the question does understand that education and training are not the same thing. Here comes my 2¢, for students, half price! Education is interaction amongst people in the social and natural environments, which results in the participants, "teachers" and "students" alike, learning ever more ways to think and learn. It is the antithesis of training, in which thinking is actively discouraged \RANT ON: (are you listening all you Ontarians who voted Mike (emb)Harris into power? TWICE!) for the purpose of keeping fresh ideas from emerging and confusing the goals of the elite with the goals of the schmucks who have to run the kids to daycare and do laundry and nuke popcorn for the rented movie and generally run faster than they can to strive for some humiliating carrot, paying extra for the privilege all the way. \RANT OFF. Oops, got away from myself there. Which is not a retraction, just an observation. Good luck Caitrin.
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08 Mar 00 - 02:38 AM (#191730) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Crowhugger Hmmm, the RCMP'll add that one to my file. Maybe even CSIS since the host server is outside Canada. |
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08 Mar 00 - 06:52 AM (#191753) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Education provides you with the ability to make rational choices and decisions in everyday life. Ignorant practise without knowledge, and idle knowledge without practise, serves little purpose. Yours,Aye. Dave |
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08 Mar 00 - 08:47 AM (#191781) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Whistle Stop As another high school and college dropout, I had to jump into this one. Seems that most of us recognize that "education" consists of much more than the "formal education" you can get through institutions of higher learning. I hope Mbo isn't as depressed with her formal educational endeavors as she sounds, but if she is, I'd encourage her to give them a rest for a while. For myself, I found that college represented the safe route to a more secure and respectable future, but ultimately that didn't give me enough of a reason to stay. I think you learn more when you're willing to take a few risks, and venture into the unknown. Besides, you can always go back. Don't mean to sound down on college -- it can be a great experience and training ground. But there's more than one way to get educated. I'm kind of hoping that society at large is going to start questioning its assumptions about college (if you have a degree you're educated, if you don't you aren't). The folks who work within the college industry (that's what it is) wouldn't like that, but maybe they're due for a bit of eduation as well. Or maybe I'm just a guy with a daughter in high school who is scared to death of next year's tuition bills... |
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08 Mar 00 - 08:51 AM (#191784) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Jeri Education really is training the mind, but... It's also training hands to touch, to write and draw, to create. Training eyes to see more than the obvious. Training ears to listen, not just hear music, the tone of voices, words and meaning. Training people to understand how they fit into a group, how they feel, react, and interact with others. Training people to be comfortable inside their own skins. One thing a good education system will do is understand how an individual learns and work with that. Some kids seem to be brilliant, but think in ways the majority of educators can't figure out or deal with. As a result, those kids' intelligence gets completely wasted unless they figure out how to teach themselves. Training the mind...nah, it's training the whole person. |
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08 Mar 00 - 08:58 AM (#191788) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Grab Education should be about learning _how_ to learn. Along the way, some useful facts need to be instilled too (maths, English, etc.). How this makes learning dates and kings in History relevant is unclear... Grab. |
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08 Mar 00 - 08:59 AM (#191789) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: katlaughing Interesting , Jeri. In defense of my education, I have to say, what I received through the next to the last year of high school then, was the equivalent of a college education now. Extraordinary teachers, challenging curriculum and I have had a recent experience to compare when our youngest attended college for three years. She and I were amazed at how how "dumbed down" some of it seemed to be. Even though my good education didn't include Jeri's example of figuring out how a person learns best, I still believe it was quite valuable. |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:13 AM (#191797) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GeorgeH Art Thieme, and others . . If "Education is much more than school" then school is much less than it ought to be. Increasingly true, unfortunately. Well, certainly so in the UK, where our education system goes steadily from worse to worse . . . And - as a collection of individuals who've (at least) triumphed over the failings of their [#1] education - PLEASE remember that for vast numbers of our population their limited time in an educational system of limited worth REMAINS a respite from, and a broadening of horizons from, the remainder of their existence. [#1] Personally, I've no troubles with my education; it gave me a great time and much benefit. I wish I felt my youngsters (19 and 21) had been afforded the same opportunities. G.
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08 Mar 00 - 09:20 AM (#191801) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Allan C. I can only say that my formel education din't hurt me none. |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM (#191818) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: wysiwyg sisterkat-- I dropped out too! (Had to, for reasons of mental health as family situations deteriorated and I grew increasingly shellshocked. Still don't clearly separate junior year realities from the nightmares about trying to make that year's classes.) "But you'll never AMOUNT to anything!!!!" Oh, yeah? Then how come the same high school called me back years later to teach a parenting module to teenagers? Could it be the seminal work I had done in parent involvement and empowerment, funded by a grant written by yours truly, working for a school district, making more than the most senior masters-degreed teachers, doing fun stuff, and solving outreach problems for the superintendent? One day in the copying room (always seize control of the printing press!!), a "colleage" asked me what my masters was in. I replied, Oh, I don't even have a degree." "WHAT??? But you're so.... why haven't you gone back to get one?????!!" "Which of the many specialties I have self-taught and now incorporate into my work should I have given up to go spend time taking classes? Which program, what new specialty, will teach me more than I know, and which skills shall I choke off to pursue the piece of paper? Where do they teach at the speed at which I assimilate? In what classroom can I learn something relevant to my field-- what is that field anyway? If there were such a program how would I keep from becoming the professor?" Of course, she had to agree. Some people, some times, some subjects, are better in an atmosphere where mentors and materials can be sought, explored, learning put directly into practice for more learning... So I am a little weak on literature. Oh well. |
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08 Mar 00 - 10:00 AM (#191819) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 Hi again Caitrin........ At the risk of actually being serious, I too have some appreciation for the foibles of the educational system here in the US and elsewhere. It could use a lot of help. But your question, relating to the essay expected from UNC/Asheville, does not have within its scope a mandate that you list the problems with education. In that context it is perhaps worth mentioning the role of the student in all of this. Its often said of young people that they seem to feel "the world owes them something." It does. The world does not owe them a home, a job, a free ride, or any of the myriad things that generally follow that statement. The world, our culture, our society, does owe something to its young folks...an education. But it comes with a price that is not financial. The role of the student is to demand that which is theirs. Too often we just complain that its a crummy class, a bad teacher. It is the right, duty, and responibility of a student to demand the education they deserve. When I was a teacher, I used to preach this to my students and one of my two finest moments came as a result. Twenty of my teenage males, vocational students who had resisted school in the past, walked out of another teacher's class and went to the office. The principal was completely confused when they explained that they were not getting what they believed they needed in that class and the instructor had no interest in improving their lot. This man and his assistant had a combined total of 58 years in vo-ed and admitted they were completely confused as they had never before encountered a situation where students demanded better instruction. It was a "gimmee" class, but the guys still felt they needed something more. It was the talk of the school system for awhile. Anyway, don't be swayed too much by our cynicism. Sure, there's more to be learned outside of the classroom than inside. But what you can learn and what is owed to you can prepare you for that learning too and perhaps fire the passion of curiosity from which, perhaps, all real learning develops. Spaw |
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08 Mar 00 - 10:31 AM (#191841) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: wysiwyg Here's our Spaw, being the kinda guy who handily keeps a possum arsehole to blow (and thus need not blow anything too smokey or too sunny up ours). (*) |
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08 Mar 00 - 10:44 AM (#191850) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 Yeah,its the price you pay as a buffoon trying to be serious.........I've gotten used to it. (:<)) Spaw |
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08 Mar 00 - 10:46 AM (#191851) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: wysiwyg Agent 49-- I've just been a little slow. I am loving you sillies and all. |
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08 Mar 00 - 11:40 AM (#191874) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo WELL! Sorry for the negative rant last night! I'm suffering from MBD (Mudcat Bipolar Disorder) as well as LID and LON! Education is 99% of my life. I was homeschooled starting at age 7, because my parents (and I, though so young) realized that the public school I was in was not as challenging as the Catholic private school I had been in before. So...from age 7 to 17 I learned millions of things, at first from textbooks and things that my mother gave us...then as I got older, I began to choose what I wanted to learn about. That's how I got to spend 3 years studying The Civil War, and another 3 years studying just the Pacific Theatre of World War II. I also got the read the books I wanted, from The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini to Twenty Years after to the unabridged Les Miserables to the Pulitzer prize-winning Peter The Great:His Life & His World. Sure it took my 6 months th finish it. But I enjoyed every minute of it. There have been times in the past when I whined or complained about school--too much studying, too much work...but I have NO regrets about what I have gone through. What I once thought as horrible is now knowledge that I possess...I mean who else makes corny jokes about cell theory and chemisty 2 years after taking the class? It's come to the point now that I must keep learning new things everyday...I'm like Number 5 from "Short Circuit"--"MORE INPUT MORE INPUT!!" For instance, I'm a graphics design major here at East Carolina University, but for an elective I'm taking Printmaking. I had no previous experience with this subject...I wasn't even really sure WHAT it was. And yes, you will hear me complain about time pressures and crits I receive, and how the "acid wasn't biting" today...but I'm learning something I never knew how to do before, and I think that's the most important thing. It also goes for music...I'm not one to harp on the old very much...I always want more new music to keep me interested. My old guitar teacher and kindred spirit said that we were two of a kind--thinking men in an unthinking time, and as his wife put it--encyclopedias of useless information. Yes, we do know countless tons of stuff that noone but ourselves will find of interest, but we still like to know them all the same. Hey, my parents used to laugh because when I was little, I would "read" the encyclopedia. Just pull out a volume, and read about everything under that letter. I also used to do it with dictionaries too. I'm not sure where I would be right now without my education. Sure, I haven't learned much at all about life...I'm still a very nervous, shy person around people...I'm kind of a loner. My education really hasn't taught me much at all about human interaction. That's why I'm such a loser in matters of the heart to. But I feel at home on a computer, or with a pen, actually writing how I feel instead of sitting there rambling like a doofus as I would if I was talking to you in person. But all in all, I know that my education can and will help me in the future to become a better person...to be better with people...and to be made understandable to others. Now that's REALLY just me! Good Lord! I've just written a 3-point essay! Ahh...Ms. Dees-Killette would be proud! --Matthew Richards (Mbo) Official card-carrying Boy of Destiny |
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08 Mar 00 - 02:33 PM (#191979) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST ..a navigational tool for those who're not quite sure in which direction they want to go, and a centralized information repository for those who are. Aside from some basic skills needed to interact with other humans and the environment, it occurs to me that there are only four (but invaluable) things I gleaned from 16+ years of education that actually enhanced or improved my life. Two were acquired in high school, two in college. In high school I gained a profound appreciation and awe for music - any and all musical vibrations - and I learned how to use a library, which opened up facets of knowledge I wasn't even aware of. In college I learned a marketable skill which aided in the acquisition of creature comforts (an external womb), and I was taught to utilize the powers of reason and logic to scrutinize everything. Comes in real handy when you go mucking around in the world of ideas. Neil |
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08 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM (#191987) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill Teaching little ones to love learning instead of trying to ram it down their throats. I know so many children who hate school. Now isn't that sad. They've take that hatred for what seems to me to be so totally unnatural and transfered it to their curiosity. Totally stunted. Of course, they know their times table though. Grrr. Mbo, come to my next gathering, or just come for a visit and I promise you, Glenn and I will show you how to live. By the way, Amos, Honey and I are getting 2 Harley 883 sportsters this spring, taking safety driving instructions from the state and going to spend our summer with our knees in the breeze. No box derbys for us. Love, annap |
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08 Mar 00 - 03:19 PM (#192000) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Fortunato Education is most appreciated by those who possess the least. (The worst I every had beat working for a living every time.) Education is where they give you a key and show you the door. Education is hard to sell to children. Education is not necessary to pick up girls.
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08 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM (#192006) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Wow annap, really? An "Auntie Mame" kind of adventure of my very own? WOW! Can I try out the Harley too? Barky said I'd look good on one... I know how you feel about kids who don't like going to school. Every day it crosses my mind that I wish I was at home in bed, instead of at school. But school has made up so much of my life, during the last 2 weeks of Christmas vacation in December, I was getting antsy to come back and get busy again. I never seem, for some reason, to hit it off well with young people...older folks I find much easier to relate to. I always form better friendships with my teachers that with the students in the class. There's only been ONE instance I can remember where I did not particulary like one of my teachers. When sitting in class, you hear students talking...about how they hate the teacher, they're too hard, they're too boring, they have a weird accent...sometimes I just want to jump up and scream at them! I defend teachers. Teachers are the ones who have such a love for what they teach that they are willing to get up early every morning and try to impart it to others who can benefit from it. Even though they receive uncaring and bored minds most of the time. I mean, I've taken lots of classes in areas I NEVER though I would care about--communications, biology, psychology, theater...now look at me! The love the teachers showed for their individual subjects challenged ME to care to! And now I have this broader world view out of it! I can understand biology, psychology was VERY interesting to me, and all the time it was just sitting there, and I never noticed it. Communications helped me a bit to break out of my shell of shyness and nervousness...I'm still trying to get through to this very day. And theater....well what can I say? I have become a Shakespeare junkie...doing dramatic theatrical readings in that class opened the doors of acting to me...and trying to understand the emotions of the characters so I could show them as I performed (I LOVED playing Gabriel in "Fences" as well as Hamlet, Prospero, Jason, Oedipus, and Algernon Montcrieff) their parts. And even in my art history classes, I'm finding things out about myself I never realized before. I found that I'm quite interested in the art of Piet Mondrian. Who'd a-though little ol' naturalism/realism Mbo would be interested in an analytic cubist? These are the things that teachers have woken up in me. That little cretin moron George Bernard Shaw came up with "Those who can do, those who can't teach". That's just one more reason for me NOT to like him. He obviously did not have that drive, the thirst, the eternal quest for knowledge that only the dedicated feel in their heart of hearts. --Mbo |
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08 Mar 00 - 07:36 PM (#192133) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Caitrin Wow...I wish I had done this before I wrote the essay! ; ) In case any of you were wondering, I based my essay on a quote by John Ruskin. "The entire object of true education is to make people not merely do the right things, but enjoy them; nore merely industrious, but to love industry; not merely learned, but to love knowledge; not merely pure, but to love purity; not merely just, but to hunger and thirst after justice." The quote has hung in my living room for as long as I can remember. It's always struck me as true. Education is going beyond learning basic facts; it is making your life richer and more enjoyable. Keep answering! This is very interesting! |
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08 Mar 00 - 08:28 PM (#192176) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 I remember writing assays for admittance.........of course, I was always such a lying sack of shit that I worked in the motto of each school I was applying to in the essay. So much for honesty.........but they all accepted me. I often wonder had my Mom not been ill and I had gone to school elsewhere as I originally planned how things would have turned out....I never dreamed of going to Berea, but the minister knew how rough things were and thought I had a chance to get in as an out-of-terrtory student. By the time I got home from school, my Mom "had my bags packed" and choice no longer entered into it. But the place changed my life. I'm sure I probably wouldn't have been here at the Mudcat as Berea brought me deeper into folk than I probably ever would have been. Spaw |
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08 Mar 00 - 08:32 PM (#192182) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Thank goodness art student don't have to write essays! Just submit a billion slides! Though's it's sho' 'nuff more expensive that writing an essay on Word! --Mbo |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:15 PM (#192228) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill YES John Ruskin! Exactly what I was trying to say in my not greatly educated way. Mbo, "I LIVED!" Tee Hee. Auntie Mame. One of my favorite stories. Now her nephew went to a great school while he lived with her. I guess our home has a lot in common with Mames'. We're very free here. Not obscene, 'spaw, just free. I wasn't by any means judging teachers badly. I was talking about the way our system has turned into a Henry Ford assembly line. The big word is Rote. Gads, I hate that word. It may be a neccesary evil, but it can certainly be presented better. Some beautiful teachers rise above the automoton system they have to work in, but not a lot. Most that I've encountered are tired, dejected, bored, etc. It sounds that you made it over the hump. I, too, learned later to love learning. Keep it up. I wish I could go back and I wish I had more time than just one life time. My son is enjoying learning now that he has found something he wants to learn. The schools he went to took that desire away from him for quite a while but he's back. Love, annap |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:20 PM (#192232) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: rpm Shaw may have been half right. If those who can do, then I sure hope its those who care that teach. ( I put twenty years down that road and still go back each fall.) -rpm |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:23 PM (#192234) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Thanks annap! And tomorrow's just another day to learn even MORE cool stuff! Yikes--just remembered! I gots an Art History test tommorrow--another "A" I can assure you! --Mbo |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:27 PM (#192240) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Botticelli's Niece It's the filling of a Soul. |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:30 PM (#192243) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Caitrin some other quotes by Ruskin... Fine Art is that in which the hand and the heart of man go together.. To make your children capable of of honesty is the begining of education.. |
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08 Mar 00 - 09:32 PM (#192245) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Sorry insert "the head" inbetween hand and I did not use my head when typing this obviously.. Yours,Aye. Dave |
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09 Mar 00 - 07:49 AM (#192388) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,James Education is obvious when A] We don"t speak in cliche's...if I never hear the phrase "the real world" again it will be too soon. It is one of those terribly meaningless phrases that indicates an inabilty to accept what others do as being important. B] We understand that education is a discipline not a form of entertainment and that, in many cases, boredom is merely a lack of tolerance for certain types of knowledge.
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09 Mar 00 - 08:20 AM (#192399) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo "But here in the real world, it's not that easy at all...when hearts get broken, it's real tears that fall..." Sorry, just had an Alan Jackson moment there. --Mbo |
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09 Mar 00 - 09:38 AM (#192429) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Matthew, Thank you for your several dissertations, above. I think you are a remarkable and worthy man, and not a doofus at all. It is unfortunate, perhaps, that like most people with rare qualities, you spend much of your time among others who seem shallow, or unthought, or specious, or immature. To some degree this is just the numbers racket...from one perspective there are perhaps 10 per cent of people who strive for greater understanding and higher rationality in their views of existence, and 90% who content themselves with preprocessed packages of some sort of pablum or other. From another perspective, eventhe dullest has a spark of great value, and is just burying it. Finding it is a challenge sometimes. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I hear you loud and clear, and in spite of the raillery which I sometimes direct toward you, admire you. As Barky puts it, you kick @ss. Affectionately, Amos |
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09 Mar 00 - 09:50 AM (#192437) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 I have a well stocked pantry of pre-processed pablum. Spaw |
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09 Mar 00 - 09:59 AM (#192442) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Don't try to flog it here, mate -- the market's glutted. Yet somehow, like bad software,there's always a new outfit on the block making a living producing it. What I want to know is, if there's a sucker born every minute, how come somany people are wandering around trying to get sucked and can't? This is a question for the Anti-Trust department -- I think someone's cornering the market. |
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09 Mar 00 - 10:21 AM (#192451) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill ..and people put down Clinton just because he could. ;-) Love, annap |
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09 Mar 00 - 10:41 AM (#192460) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Fortunato rpm:
It was H.L. Mencken who said, "Those who can -- do. Those who can't -- teach." Not George Bernard Shaw.
He was wrong. He ought to have said:
Teaching is noble endeavor.
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09 Mar 00 - 10:48 AM (#192464) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Well, that stupid quote book was ging' me the bum scoop! Sorry for that mistake. Oh, and I don't like Mencken either. was militanly against classical music and opera of any kind. Cretin. --Mbo |
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09 Mar 00 - 11:49 AM (#192494) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Put the bum scoop away, now Mbo... practice scooping from the front for a while... |
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09 Mar 00 - 11:54 AM (#192496) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Ringer Dave (the ancient mariner): When Ruskin said "To make your children capable of of honesty is the begining of education", did he mean the beginning of your education or theirs? |
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09 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM (#192499) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Is there a difference? Is it the head or the tail side that belongs to the coin? (ooo --- zennoid!). A |
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09 Mar 00 - 12:22 PM (#192511) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 I dunno Amos....the boy ahs obviously got some good book learnin' and a lot of energy, but I'm now gettin' real worried that he either NEEDS or USES a scoop to clean his bum. The one is frightening, but the other makes me wonder if he's heard of toilet paper........either way Meebo, I suggest an investment in ass-wipes. Spaw |
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09 Mar 00 - 01:08 PM (#192544) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Ass-wipes? Sounds to me like he's already surrounded by 'em. He needs someone with a scoopable front end to practice on. An innie rather than an outie, if y'see what I mean. A |
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09 Mar 00 - 01:09 PM (#192545) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Fortunato Catspaw49. 'Round my neck of the woods you don't have to buy ass-wipes, they run wild on Capital Hill.
As for Mencken, he also said: Fortunato |
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09 Mar 00 - 02:09 PM (#192583) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos I know one blind pig that has found none yet...maybe it's staying too far from the Belt-way :>). |
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09 Mar 00 - 02:35 PM (#192598) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Froodo Formal University education is way expensive. |
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09 Mar 00 - 02:56 PM (#192607) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Ebbie Someone said, Every one should go to college- if only to find out they wouldn't have had to. |
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09 Mar 00 - 03:08 PM (#192614) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mooh ...what (Ontario Premier) Mike Harris thinks. |
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09 Mar 00 - 03:49 PM (#192629) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Ely . . . what I'm likely to get for the insane tuition I'm paying here. Actually, college has been good for me in a lot of ways. I'll never use most of the academics (can we say "what do you plan to do with that *history major*"?), but I think I'm much healthier as a person for having spent four years 1,000 miles from home. On a larger scale . . . experience, and knowing how to use it. I'm working on that. |
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09 Mar 00 - 05:45 PM (#192676) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo Well, after being homeschooled for 10 years, you get to be a VERY close-knit family. Moving 85 miles away from home was a daunting thing to face.My sister & I both applied for ECU's Honor's Program--we had the grades to get it, but we never received an answer from the head of the Honors Society. One day after waiting for weeks, my sister called his office and finally just asked his secretary what the deal was. Oh, you've been accepted, she said. Well, we were happy! Sure it was a little harder work, but at least you got to live in an air-conditioned dorm as juniors and Honor students. When we came up here for orientation, we found to our dismay that we had NOT been accepted into the Honor society, we were just kind of ignored. Great! School was set to start in 3 weeks and we weren't going to get anyplace to live! I coulda kicked that moron Honors gut in the shins for that. So...in the end, we actually found a good apartment up here for a reasonable price...and now I'm soooooo happy that guy forgot about us! Living apart from my sister in cramped grotty dorms with some weird roommates? NO THANKS! Now we're nice & comfortable here...and have no care for the Honors Society. Beware of them all! No one cares about their jobs these days, and they NEVER do ANYTHING right. BTW I don't worry about tuition, I got student aid all around...though I'm still hoping for a full scholarship! But now tuition's going UP, because, as I like to say, they raised the salary of our football head coach--"AHA! Steve Logan needs more money to make him stay! Let's take it out on the students!" --Mbo |
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09 Mar 00 - 06:44 PM (#192688) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Bald Eagle I believe he was applying it to both situations; for when do you ever stop learning? I never stopped learning, and in fact have to re-learn stuff that I've forgotten through lack of use. Yours,Aye. Dave (the ancient "not the sharpest pencil in the box" mariner) |
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10 Mar 00 - 11:36 AM (#193059) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) Edcuation is the process of learning that you don't know what you think you know. |
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10 Mar 00 - 11:39 AM (#193061) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo "Learn, learn, and learn some more, for that's what living life is for." --Mbo |
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10 Mar 00 - 11:50 AM (#193067) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Little Neophyte Sorry for taking so long Caitrin, but I had to think about this a bit. Hope I am not too late. Education is more than I ever imagined it would be. I use to think it was just a means to getting my degree. But now I realize education was more than getting my degree. It has allowed me to let go of most of what I was taught in my formal education. By getting my degree, I was able to realize, I could let go of the textbooks and think for myself. For me it was a ticket to intellectual freedom. Bonnie . |
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10 Mar 00 - 11:59 AM (#193074) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack: who is called Jack A lot has been said about education in terms of its value to those who attain it. But it is a mistake to focus strictly on its payoff to the individual, whether in material enrichment (better job), personal growth (better person), or personal enrichment (a happier more fullfiled person). Everything good that our civilization is or can be is subsumed in the totality of our culture, our art, our science, our technology, our philosophy, our religion, our politics, our literatature, our economics--in short everthing you can learn about in school and by study. The power of that culture as a force for good in our civilization is predicated on its preservation, dissemination, and refinement. It is no accident that the restriction of education, and the supression, and even execution of those who provide it at the highest level, has been an element of some of the greatest cultural evils in history. It is also no accident that those cultures who advocated the spread of knowlege have, in the end, triumphed over those who tried to limit it. In this century, the Nazi's and the Western Communists States (to name two) brutally persecuted and exiled their intellectual community, resticted learning, and burned, banned and censored books. Now, reviled, they lie shattered on the scrap heap of history. Defeated by cultures who embraced intellectual pursuits education. It was by stripping away the greatest force for good in their societies, by denying the freedom to learn and think, that they unwittingly stripped themselves of the one essential tool they needed to make their societies enduring and great. That is why I always shudder when I hear education discussed solely in terms of its value to the student alone, or when hear a student complain about having to learn something unrelated to their career. My cousin, who studied psychology, once decried having to learn algebra. "Why? I'll never us it!", she said. Why indeed?. Algebra is one of the great elements of the culture that made you. As such is is an integreal part of everything good that you are. If you believe that others both now and in the future should share in that benefit, you have a responsibility to take part in the dissemination and preservation that knowlege, and of as many of other elements of the culture that made you as you as you can. Learning about them is part of that. Granted life is short, and no one can learn everything. All of us will make decisions about which things we will give the most attention. However, that does not mean avoiding opportunities to learn based only on personal interest. Starting with the Renaissance, and continuing through to today, the western culture that spawned us has been engaed in a great experiment to determine whether a culture is best served by education or by obedience to authority. That was the issue in the trial of Gallileo, and we see it played out everywhere around us. It is a struggle that touches us all, and we must all decide on which side we stand. The easiest choice is to stand for obedience. All that is required is for us to abdictate our responsiblity to educate ourselve as much as we possibly can. On the other hand, every barber that troubles to learn algebra, every writer that bothers to understand the rudiments of science, every engineer that takes time to read Melville or Conrad, every housewife that take some time to read history strikes an important and necessary blow against the abhorent concept of blind obedience. They stand shoulder to shoulder with all of those who committed and sometimes gave their lives to the idea that knowlege and truth are the only masters that we should serve. So do your homework. Jack |
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10 Mar 00 - 12:05 PM (#193075) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Little Neophyte Jack, let me guess, you are a teacher, right? Little Neo |
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10 Mar 00 - 12:18 PM (#193081) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Bill in Alabama--somewhere else Huzza, Jack! Well said! |
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10 Mar 00 - 12:22 PM (#193082) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill My cousin, who studied psychology, once decried having to learn algebra. "Why? I'll never us it!" This is exactly what I'm talking about. People (children) have been taught to hate learning and it's very sad. People who have not been turned into sheep and can think for themselves love learning. Others just want to follow the flock and not have to learn what isn't needed. How sad. I know extremely intellegent people (much smarter than me) who actually hate learning anything outside of their main interests. Oh well. You just stumbled over what is one of my pet peeves. Love, annap |
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12 Mar 00 - 05:48 PM (#193952) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack (who is called Jack) For all its wonders and benefits annap, learning, especially if pursued, rigorously on a broad front, has a lot of negative aspects. Its time consuming, effortful, fraught with very uncomfortable, anxious and frustrating periods of feeling out of ones element. Often one's most comforting and preciously held understandings are challenged, along with ones pride (after all the first element of becoming educated is the admission or discovery that you don't know enough). Then there is the drudgery. Fighting your way through all the reading that is required, and the homework and the practice. And the listening and questioning, and effort. Certainly the rewards outweigh the costs, but the costs are considerable. Its like my wife, who had to read Heart of Darkness in a required english class for her BS in nursing. The first three quarters of the way through were grueling, and all she did was gripe. Then suddenly, the light went on, and she 'got it'. Now she thinks (and rightly so) that its one of the most important things she did in college, and actually was glad when she had to read it again for another class. For all its intrinisic rewards, the heart of the educational process is delayed gratification and frustration tolerance. Children are pretty insightful, and grasp this truth very quickly. They don't really have to be taught to resent learning. They know that there's a lot of frustration, tedium and delayed rewards associated with it, and those have never been the long suit of childhood. Overcoming this natural resistance and allowing a childs innate desire to KNOW to overide it, has always been the great trick of good teachers and parents. |
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12 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM (#193971) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Little Neophyte You know what Jack, maybe if I had been fortunate enough to have had you as one of my professors, I would have stayed in university to pursue the doctorate I wanted. I couldn't see anything good about the university system at the time so I settled with my degree but had always hoped for more. Little Neo |
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13 Mar 00 - 12:32 AM (#194098) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Besides, anyone who thinks they'll never use algebra is too undereducated to know what they're saying! |
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13 Mar 00 - 12:35 AM (#194100) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) I don't peg jack as a teacher--most teachers know that they have to get to the point quickly, or they'll loose their audience--maybe he's a minister, or one of those newspaper columnists that like to repost their favorite columns here.. |
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13 Mar 00 - 10:40 AM (#194217) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Neil Lowe ...on the other hand, most things worth pursuing in life require a little effort. Jack's posting was thoughtful, insightful, meaningful...well worth the time and effort I spent reading it twice to make sure I got it. Thanks. Neil |
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13 Mar 00 - 11:04 AM (#194231) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: AndyG Educe (from the latin ducere lead (the metal)) To draw out. Hence ductile (drawable).
Educate (from educe). To bring out, to make concrete that which is latent.
Teachers push stuff in, educators don't.
Those who can do,
AndyG
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13 Mar 00 - 11:14 AM (#194237) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Well done, AndyG. The whole difference between drawing out and pushing in reflects on the crucial flaws in an "educational" system whose roots are in the middle ages. Pushing facts in and demanding they be parroted back without the addition of independent thought is a great model for making an authoritarian hierarchy like a large international church, for example, where original thought would be unwelcome but you need administrators who can read and write to keep things going. For genuine education, I much prefer the original academia -- the Socratic discourse -- to the "scholastic" approach. It brings out minds instead of second-hand data. A |
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13 Mar 00 - 11:20 AM (#194242) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: katlaughing Just remember, most teachers are mandated by law to force that type of learning in order for children to get those standardised text scores up there. Any teacher who tries to be creative and/or deviate from the *norm* runs great risks. My sister was reassigned to school after school for rocking the boat this way because she gave a damn about how best to teach each individual child. All three of my sisters are damn fine teachers who can DO and who also choose to teach. Administrators and others tie the hands of those who can and do and teach. If you want to see some changes go to school board meetings and get involved in what is required of teachers. kat |
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13 Mar 00 - 11:57 AM (#194259) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) Glad to hear about your sisters--maybe you could have Jack get in touch with them, and then write something up about how really good teachers do it--Neil has expressed a sincere interest in this--I think some of the others are willing to invest the time that it takes to grasp such a vital and important subject, as well-- I have given this a great deal of thought, and I have to say that teaching and learning is what it is all about--maybe we can all learn something here!!!! |
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13 Mar 00 - 12:04 PM (#194262) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack I'm an engineer. |
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13 Mar 00 - 12:33 PM (#194273) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos We won't hold it agin ye, mate. Where I come from we worship them...it's a little cult we have :>). A |
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13 Mar 00 - 12:48 PM (#194280) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) I was just Re-reading your posts, Jack, and it it really shows-- |
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13 Mar 00 - 01:01 PM (#194282) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Ringer Doesn't make a great deal of difference to his thought, but AndyG is incorrect above. ducere is a verb, meaning to lead (plumbum, noun, is the metal). Hence il Duce, the leader, Mussolini (and, indeed, ductile). Educate comes from e(x)ducere, to lead out. |
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13 Mar 00 - 01:41 PM (#194295) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack M TED Is that good or bad? :). |
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13 Mar 00 - 01:42 PM (#194297) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: The Shambles It is what Jack says, that is important, not what he does and it will not make his views any more or less valid anyway.
The personal benefits of obtaining a good education are less important than society in general having a poor one or none at all. For the 'mob' are unlikely to respect your hard won pieces of paper.
It is the spirit of competition, both in order to get a good one and as part of the process of formal education, that troubles me. The concept of winners and losers has nothing to do with education. It has reached the stage where all parents feel they need to 'buy' the education of their choice, just like any other product, to try and ensure their children's future.
In the UK it results in old pupils of Eton and Harrow, sending their own children to the very places that they themselves suffered 'hell'?
I wrote my thoughts in this song a little while ago as it stopped me 'ranting on' in company.
Back To Basics
When we talk about education, we all have our views
When they say "back to basics", we don't doubt it
In so called 'primitive' cultures, they're taught what they need
When mass education started, it was for liberty
You have one level of attainment, and you devise a test
Take a system that's built on failure, mix with our 'class system' as well
We must be doing something wrong, have we money to burn?
Our children are in chains, chains called education
We have stored a lot of knowledge, about our society
I don't have all the answers, the children, they may have a few Roger Gall. |
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13 Mar 00 - 02:06 PM (#194316) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill Jack, I agree that kids (people) will work hard and understand that they will be rewarded later and the trouble is worth it. When it's done with caring and love instead of derision and pain. What the hell does a "flick" on the back of a kids head, or a(n?) "F" for not covering you book, or using you as an "example" to the other students, or pointing out how stupid you are, or how lazy you are, or that you come from a bad family, or that "Your not worth the trouble" teach but hatred of learning? (ooooohh, I'm pissed) I had one teacher go over to my son's desk in 6th grade, grab him by the hair as he was bent over to get a book out of his bag, and pull him up, grab the bag, pour the books out of his bag unto his desk, and walk away. James was out of that school and into a private school that had a wonderful teaching method before the week was out. The "teacher" called telling me how sorry he was. He was worried about his job. He had NO idea how he had affected my child's desire to learn, nor, did he care. As I said this is one of my pet peeves. I'm sorry. I'm very emotional about this particular subject because these are our children they're messing with. Again I have to say it's not all teachers, it's a stupid ridiculous system that doesn't allow teachers to teach. When I see a teacher who cares and understands the process of teaching I hold that teacher in the highest regard and love. I've known a few, but not many, who have not been swallowed up by the crap. grrrr... LOVE, annap
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13 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM (#194373) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) Well, it's good, for an engineer;-)-- Seriously, I worked for many years with engineers, as a advertising and technical writer--you have all learned a very systematic way for solving problems and for presenting your solutions--often more detailed and protracted than most outsiders can deal with--but always imbued with the idea that all the pieces have to be fit together, and that they really ought to work-- Generally, people need a fair amount of education before they learn to think like that-- |
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13 Mar 00 - 03:48 PM (#194385) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack Annap, Wow, that really stinks. It sounds like you've had experience with abusive people who confused education with forcing conformity and obedience. Jack
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13 Mar 00 - 04:17 PM (#194405) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack M Ted, -generally believe that things should fit together and that they ought to work-- That's about the best compliment I've recieved in a while. Jack |
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14 Mar 00 - 03:16 PM (#194838) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) Jack, If the shoe fits-- |
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14 Mar 00 - 05:04 PM (#194877) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos And if it doesn't, go back to the requirements spec... |
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14 Mar 00 - 05:22 PM (#194879) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Caitrin The same sorts of things happen to good school teachers here. The worst in high school is "the tenth grade writing test." It is a test of critical writing skills which requires truly lousy writing to make a high score. As a result, students are taught lousy writing by their tenth grade teachers, which then has to be undone by their junior and senior year teachers. Teachers who teach good writing get low test scores and get reprimanded by the administration. There's a serious problem with a system that requires incompetency. |
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14 Mar 00 - 05:27 PM (#194885) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Boy, C, are you ever on the right path. I'm afraid the deeper you look into it the uglier that little picture looks, and your statement of the problem is elegant, precise and telling. Please don't ever compromise, eve if you have to be gentle. :>) A |
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14 Mar 00 - 06:30 PM (#194912) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack The shoe fits..... +/- 0.25 cm, per spec.
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14 Mar 00 - 07:45 PM (#194950) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Little Neophyte Jack just because you are an engineer does not mean you are not a teacher. In fact I read something today and thought of you. I'm reading 'tuesdays with Morrie' by Mitch Albom. Great Book Anyway, this quote is for you.............. "A teacher affects eternity; he can never tell where his influence stops." Henry Adams Little Neo |
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14 Mar 00 - 08:26 PM (#194983) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: katlaughing LilNeo, that's one of the last books my mom read before she died and she loved it. My Rog is an engineer and has taken several young *pups* under his wing and taught them a lot. Takes some getting used to, though, learning the way his mind works. |
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15 Mar 00 - 02:20 AM (#195221) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: M. Ted (inactive) Close enough for gov't work, Jack-- |
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15 Mar 00 - 01:29 PM (#195525) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill It's so sad. I was on the van yesterday taking me back to Manhatten and a man behind me was complaining about the class and teacher his daughter had in 8th grade. He said it wasn't education, it was regurgitation. He said she was given booklets on biology and the info was on the test. As long as you memorized the book, and answered the questions in the book as they were presented, you did well. This is rather or not the info was correct. His daughter had gotten one wrong. The question was, why are green leaves green? His daughter answered "Chlorophyl (or whatever it is that makes leaves green)"(?sp). She was marked as wrong. The answer in the book was "light reflection" ???? That question should have been why do we SEE green leaves as green! The book, however, said "light reflection" therefore she got it wrong. See what I mean? Love, annap |
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15 Mar 00 - 01:54 PM (#195537) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Talk about pure-dee dumbass lowgrade lowest-common-denominator asininity, that about epitomizes the worst of it. Of all the groveling, pissant, inverted, anti-production, robotic, thickheaded inane, brainless, mindless AND soulless examples of unmitigated professional STUPIDITY, that takes the mudpie! Whoever shoved that teaching method down an 8th graders life ought to be fahred faster than jackrabbit satisfaction! Fondly, Amos |
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15 Mar 00 - 02:39 PM (#195564) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill Yeah, what he said!! L.,A. |
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15 Mar 00 - 09:28 PM (#195790) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Amos Here's what education really brings -- these aren't mine, but I wish they were...: I've learned-
that you can do something in an instant that will give you heartache for life.
I've learned-
that it's taking me a long time to become the person I want to be.
I've learned-
that you should always leave loved ones with loving words. It may be the last time you see them.
I've learned-
that you can keep going long after you can't.
I've learned-
that we are responsible for what we do, no matter how we feel.
I've learned-
that either you control your attitude or it controls you.
I've learned-
that regardless of how hot and steamy a relationship is at first, the passion fades and there had better be something else to take its place.
I've learned-
that heroes are the people who do what has to be done when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.
I've learned-
that money is a lousy way of keeping score.
I've learned-
that my best friend and I can do anything or nothing and have the best time.
I've learned-
that sometimes the people you expect to kick you when you're down will be the ones to help you get back up. |
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15 Mar 00 - 09:57 PM (#195812) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 Annap, your story is not all that unusual...and more's the pity. The brilliant and wonderful Richard Feynman was a visiting prof in Brazil and found that the students were outstanding parrots but truly had no idea how the principles of physics they knew so well by rote applied to real world phenomena. Sadly, we have a huge number of teachers and administrators in the US who run their classes in the same manner. We invest in all the modern aids, computers, buildings, etc., but education does not occur. We confuse memory with intelligence and the latest tools for real learning. Are you familiar with the "Cargo Cult?" On a small island in the pacific lived a tribe of people never exposed to "modern civilization." During the island hopping Pacific campaign of WWII we established a supply depot and an airstrip on their island. Along with the airstrip came all the supplies and things associated with it. The islanders were completely overcome with the new things that arrived out of the sky every day. The war ended and we left the islanders to themselves. The "Sky Gods" no longer brought the fine things they were enjoying. So they went to work. They fixed up the landing strip and put brightly colored cloths where the lights had been. Out of thatch and bamboo, they repaired the facility and even built crude boxes that looked like radios with bamboo earphones and vines for cords. They had all the trappings but the Sky Gods did not return with any more cargo. For many years they kept this up including having someone on the "Earphones" every day......but the Sky Gods did not come back. True story. Its not hard to see the analogy here. I fear that much of our educational system is "Cargo Cult Education," a phrase I've used for years, especially when I was teaching. Spaw
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15 Mar 00 - 10:25 PM (#195829) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: Mbo I know I'm risking the TTCM's wrath on this one but... When I was in kindergarten our teacher let us do watercolor painting one day. I of course, being 5 years old and never having done painting before, was painting outside the lines. For my trouble, the teacher took away my materials and told me I couldn't paint anymore. It made me cry. Now here I am an art student. NAH! Though I'm still not very good at painting, computer art is my bag. Also, in first grade, I was known for being very garrulous--certainly the most talkative in the whole class. But bad little boys who talked too much got the punishment of masking tape over their mouth for a half hour. Maybe that's why I'm shy and quiet in public. My brain still thinks someone's going to rip of a piece of masking tape and stop my words. Even after the 10 years of homeschool that followed, it's still stayed with me. One day I hope to bust out of it and become like everyone else, but it's going to take time. Then again, my Dad was the same way, even worse, but my Mom said she fixed that REAL fast! |
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16 Mar 00 - 11:01 AM (#196091) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: GUEST,Jack Spaw, great analogy. Feynman's great. Have you read his autobiographies? I also recommend James Gleik's biography of him, Genius. Annap, there's an story (possibly apocryphal) about a physics test question that asked students how they would go about determining the height of the school building if they had a clock and some other stuff (I forget exactly what). The idea was to use a particular formula, but the question didn't specify that. A particularly clever (albeit somewhat irreverent) student came up with a completely different way, rational if a little silly (like, I'd tie a string to the clock, lower it down, mark how far it went and measure the string with a ruler). The teacher marked him off. He complained, she gave him another shot, and got another rational answer different from the expected one (something involving throwing the clock of the roof), she gave him a third chance, and sticking to his guns that a right answer is a right answer his final reply was that he would sell the clock and pay the janitor get his long tape measure and measure the height of one story then multiply by the number of floors in the school. Supposedly the teacher wrote the author Issac Assimov and asked his advice. He told her to give the kid an A. "After all", he wrote, "if you can describe what you know and how you know it, that's science. It doesn't matter if you use the same method as everybody else." |
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16 Mar 00 - 12:03 PM (#196142) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: catspaw49 Thanks Jack, and yes I have read all the Feynman stuff and the books occupy a special place on the shelves and in my heart. For a man who claimed to know nothing of "social things" he was very insightful there too. The story of his first wife is one of the most wonderful and heart rendering love stories I can ever imagine. Your story reminds me of my son Michael. He is a free thinker and sees things differently than most of us. He loves art and will spend hours upon hours making drawings. I need to buy stock in Meade!!! He's only 7, but very talented and what he "sees" is not the usual. He is having problems with basic alpha/reading things, perhaps owing to "Failure to Thrive" during the first year of his life. He came to us at age 9 months and its hard to tell how much the damage done befpre then is affecting him now. But he DOES have a very neat mind that is not classic in its approach. When he was 5 and we went for "Kindergarten" testing, I sat and watched, but parents could not coach of course. On several tests he did not take the calssic approach and on one, the teacher (I use that term loosely) became extremely frustrated. She would stack blocks in a pattern and the kid was supposed to repeat it. He did this up to about the fifth one. She stacked the blocks in steps up to a little platform. Michael looked at it for about a minute and then came up with a way to use the same number of blocks to make TWO sets of steps to the platform. She told him this wasn't right and did it again. Unbelievably he came up with ANOTHER way of making TWO sets of steps. She said he was wrong and he asked her why? Instead of explaining that she was testing his memory or whatever, she got a tad angry and told him that he was supposed to build the step as she had done, "the RIGHT way." Michael looked at her and asked if it wouldn't be better to have two sets of steps instead of one.....things got worse after that. I couldn't help but laugh at her frustration, but she was rigid and that was sad. One of my foster children had her as a teacher and she was equally dogmatic in the classroom. Spaw |
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16 Mar 00 - 04:15 PM (#196294) Subject: RE: BS: Education is more than... From: annamill I am very familiar with the "Cargo Cult" story, 'spaw. I saw it in a movie or special sometime waaayy back. It might have been Mando Cane, the movie. I've always been fascinated with it. It's about the same way I feel about today's education. "How Sad". I am a Asimov fanatic. I even read "The Foundation's Edge". (Inside Asimov joke) My very first SF story was "Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus" by Asimov. Lets start a revolt against this very poor copy of education we have. Just how do you go about starting a revolution? When I have more time I'll tell you about the wonderful private school that saved James after "public" school. Again, Grrrr.. Love, annap |