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21 Mar 00 - 09:21 AM (#198597) Subject: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. We have had a number of threads about modes, and I have a book or two about them, but I am still unclear on the application of the concept. That is, I understand all the language, and that each mode starts on a different note of the scale, and so on, but I cannot connect it to ordinary playing around on the guitar. If you look at a standard guitar instruction book, about halfway through they go into modes, and then ask you to start doing modal scales. This is supposed to be a basic, crucial step. Why? If most things are in the basic well-tempered scale, why is there so much emphasis on learning all these mixolydian, locrian, etc. scales? Am I missing something basic that all guitarists know? I am just curious -- I have no idea if I would ever work through them. Can anyone explain what this is all about: NOT the nature of the modes, we have hashed all that out; but what role they play in your average guitar player's life. yours, Peter T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:30 AM (#198606) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha Here's one: when the fiddle (sic) player says she is in G mixolydian, you need to know that in order to drop the G# out of the major chord. Really, other than Iaonian Major and Aeolian minor, the only two used very much are Mix. and Dorian, and regular minor chords work just fine for Dorian, mostly. |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:37 AM (#198608) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: alison I've been playing for years Peter, and no one has ever turned round and said that "we're playing the next one in mixolydian or whatever"... it's usually major or minor.... I wouldn't worry too much about it. slainte alison |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:43 AM (#198611) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: wysiwyg Well is this too elementary for your present level of understanding? Maybe it is-- maybe will make a startpoint for someone else tho-- First, I'm ear-oreinted more than notation-oriented. I run over the scales of any piece I don't know well, when I can, to tune my ear to what is going to work and what won't in arranging it and/or harmonizing it. To impress upon my inner hearing what my options will be to build the piece from scratch or work with an existing piece. To load in the program that will run the application. In some of the modes I don't have a lot of experience with, this has become a real necessity-- otherwise a note I move to harmonically, that would make perfect sense melodically/sequentially in a more often-used mode, just will not work and I can't find the note that WILL work in the mix of all I am hearing. The answer is always in the modal scale when I run over it in my mind. Another way of saying that is that the core of resolution for a phrase within a piece may not be the note you expect it to be, in a mode you have not worked into your head/fingers/ear. ????? I THINK this means what I mean, I THINK I am beginning to GET modes. |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:46 AM (#198615) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: wysiwyg In the above post, "the core of resolution" is apparently a Freudian slip of the entire mind, for I meant NOTE of resolution. (CORE????? What's up with THAT?) |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:53 AM (#198619) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Lady McMoo What the Phrygian heck is all this about...! mcmoo |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:53 AM (#198620) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) If you're playing in G-mixolydian, you want to avoid the D-major chord, just as Sorcha noted. If you're playing in D-dorian, avoid the B-flat and any chord containing it. When I play in G-mixolydian I try to use the F-major chord several times if it fits the air, especially at cadences, to emphasize the mixolydian quality. More generally, you might find it a useful experiment to try harmonizing an air with only the notes that are in the air (and their octaves, obviously.) If the air is hexatonic, try playing countermelodies that contain only the same six notes. For pentatonic melodies this can be tricky. I once harmonized a pentatonic air in 3 parts, and found that the results were not satisfactory unless the lowest part confined itself mainly to elongated notes, while the shorter notes appeared mainly in the upper two parts. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:58 AM (#198623) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: wysiwyg Oh boy. |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:09 AM (#198629) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Arkie I am a little surprised that guitar instruction books would even mention modes. I have suggested the theory that the introduction of the guitar into southern mountain music was one of the things that contributed to the decline in the use of modes. So far that theory seems to be ignored in discussions of modes and perhaps for good reason. When vocal music, the banjo, and fiddle were the primary elements of mountain, traditional music, the emphasis was on melody and in traditional music that was generally melodies based on modal scales. The introduction of the guitar to southern mountain music around the turn of the twentieth century brought about strong chordal possibilites and a shift away from modal scales and open tunings to a standard tuning and the now commonly accepted major scale. Here in the Ozarks, that was also a way the "young folks" could make the archaic music of their parents a little more "uptown". I suspect that most guitarists who have any interest in modes play a lot in open tunings. As for your playing with people who announce that a particular tune is in "such and such" mode that would mean you would look for a few unusual chord changes. As was stated earlier the only modes you are likely to encounter are Aeolian, the minor mode, Dorian, a mixture of major and minor sounds and Mixolydian, which means if you are in the key of G you will need an F chord somewhere before the tune is over. |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:09 AM (#198630) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Fortunato My advice is to run screaming from the room if anyone says weird stuff like mixolydian. Unless, of course, it's a beer or something to eat. You can't be too careful, regards Fortunato |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:13 AM (#198633) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: WyoWoman I thought it was that stuff you rub on your scalp to restore hair growth. Catspaw uses it on his palms, of course. (But seriously, folks, this is interesting even thought I have only the teensiest clue what you're talkign about...) ww |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:29 AM (#198643) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Lady McMoo Okiemockingbird, Here in Europe, if the European Commission discovered that the air contained anything hexatonic it would very quickly be banned! mcmoo |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:35 AM (#198646) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird mcmoo, no doubt our resident globalists will use the WTO to bring the EC practice here! "Hypomixolyidan" as the name of an ale does have a certain ring to it. Peter T., are you getting all this ? T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:47 AM (#198650) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Here is a mixolydian melody with guitar chords: (I think I've written them in right) X: 1 T: Orientis Partibus C: 13th century French, from The New Hymnal New York, 1916, transposed. M: 3/4 K: C L: 1/4 | "G"G2 A |"G" B2 G | "F"A2 F |"G" G2 z | "G or Dm"d2 d |"C" e2 c | "G or Dm"d2 d | "G"B2 z | |"G" B2 A | "C"c2 B | "F"A2 G | "G"B2 z |"G or Dm" d2 c | "G"B2 G | "F"A2 F |"G or C" G3 || Using the D-minor option produces a sound that takes some getting used to. But you must avoid the temptation to use the D-major chord, since it contains G#, which is not in the mixolydian scale. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:49 AM (#198651) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Here it is again, with line breaks:
X: 1 T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM (#198657) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Mooh Okiemockbird. A D major chord contains a G#? What did I miss this time? Just for fun I'm gonna try to call the key for a tune modally, and see what kind of gut-splitting laughs I get from the band. The reality in my limited world has been that we try to simplify things to major keys as a matter of reflex, even when we know better, and don't play everything in major keys no matter what we call them. This used to irritate me, but I realize that not everyone is as anal as me about theory, particularly those who have better ears than me. As a result, most often Em even gets called G. Oh well, so long as the participants all understand what's going on... |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:14 AM (#198661) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Oops, I meant F#. Sorry. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:35 AM (#198672) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler I haven't understood a word of this so excuse the BS question: If you put a nickel in a Nickelodeon what do you put in a myxilodian? A diseased rabbit? RtS "My brain hurts" |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:42 AM (#198679) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) This "mode" business really annoys me, because A) it confuses people unnecessarily B)In most cases, you're really not talking about modes at all-- Jazz guitarists(undoubtably you have a jazz guitar book) like to talk about"modes" but they really just play the same major scale, no matter which mode they are in, they just start at a different degree of the scale--and they need a convenient name for the different fingering pattern-- It is more important for you to understand the difference between the tonic and the dominant scales, since when you, the overachieving music student, are playing what you think are "Mixolydian, Dorian, and (God Forbid you should try to do this) Locrian modes, you are really just playing the same Dominant scale--The rest of them are pretty much Tonic, except for the Phrygian which is almost as useless as the Locrian--When you play Jazz, you tend to use the Dominant scale, anyway-- As to the importance of things--it depends on what you want to play what you need to know--as to modes and scales, of course, some knowledge is more useful than others-- My old guitar teacher, Uncle Albert, went to one of these week long guitar workshops where they worked on heavy duty theory and scales and such--at the concert, at the end of the week, the heavy duty theory guy took a complex solo based on some esoteric alt scale--then Uncle Albert played the corny little dominant solo that he always sticks into "Sweet Georgia Brown" guess who got the applause?
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21 Mar 00 - 11:53 AM (#198685) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird M.Ted, your terminology is new to me. By "Tonic" and "Dominant" do you mean the same as "Authentic" and "Plagal" ? From your examples it would appear not, since Dorian and Mixolyidan are authentic, their plagal variants being hypodorian and hypomixolydian. But I can't see what else you would mean, unless it's guitar-specific. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM (#198712) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. I think this is getting a bit warmer, but I don't seem to be able to ask the right questions. Let me try harder: 1) Arkie mentions melodies that have a scalar structure of their own -- implying some mode -- before the guitar (piano, etc.) with its chords came along. Does this mean that non-classical songs -- pre-Bach and pre-Tin Pan Alley -- are generally modal of some kind, but have been stuffed or reshaped into the prevailing major-minor scale? So if someone in a non-influenced culture stands up and sings a song unaccompanied, they would sing something in a different mode. So if you just walked in with your instrument you could accompany them appropriately with some modal scale (meaning usually the tune, but with various notes sharped or flatted or avoided consistently. That is, ordinary people wouldn't notice that they are consistently doing this, but a knowledgeable musicologist would say that they are in some mode)? 2) M.Ted -- I don't understand what you are saying, but I am edging towards the precipice. You say jazz guitarists "play the same major scale" but start on a different note. That presumably means that if they start on D as opposed to C (I assume this), that they are either in the key of C and have just moved up a note (so are still in C) or they are in the key of D, and have a key of D fingering pattern. What has any of this got to do with different modes? Don't I just put in my sharps -- or is that the D mode just slightly cleaned up in the well-tempered system? I know there is some relationship, but can't quite make the connection. I keep trying to relate modes to the standard system of keys, sharps, flats, etc., and can't do it. I know that in the books there is a lot of talk about how these scales start/started on different notes historically, but there is a piece missing in my head. You then talk about tonics and dominants. When you say that you need the dominant scale, if we are in the key of C, that would be G, so why am I doing something different? Don't I just play notes in a G scale (if I guess I am doing an improvisational riff here)? What has this got to do with modes? 3) Sorcha, you are way ahead of me -- I am trying to figure out what role modes/scales play, not how to hear them!!!!! continuing thanks to all....yours, Peter T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM (#198713) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Mooh Ted. I'm with you. But I think I'll sacrifice a small farm animal to the music gods just to be sure. Okiemockbird. I figured that's what you meant, but I'm still considering that sacrifice. Or maybe a mudcat... With fries and a large Coke? |
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21 Mar 00 - 12:39 PM (#198715) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: wysiwyg Roger-- LOL!!! mixo..... LOL!! |
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21 Mar 00 - 12:45 PM (#198722) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bill in Alabama Been playing for money for nigh onto thirty years. Thought I was a musician; wandered in here--lost as a goose in a fog. Feel like a bastard at a family reunion. Adios. |
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21 Mar 00 - 01:03 PM (#198733) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., the question of temperament can be separated out from the question of what chords or notes one should use to accompany dorian or mixolydian melodies. There are examples of dorian melodies being modified by arrangers to a chromatic minor scale (with lowerd 6th and raised 7th) and of mixolydian melodies being "majorized" by raising the 7th (Orientis Partibus, quoted above, usually appears nowadays as a major melody. Peter, Paul & Mary (I think) used it, in major form, for a Christmas song. ("I said the Donkey all shaggy and brown"). But the major scale goes back pretty far too--the lydian-taming B-flat was an early invention--and if a melody is hexatonic or pentatonic, it can sometimes be assigned arbitrarily to more then one mode: A dorian scale without the 6th is identical to an aeolian scale without the 6th. So it would be a mistake to assume that all pre-baroque music is dorian or mixolydian or phrygian or lydian or hypo-any-of-those. When M.Ted says that jazz guitarists "play the same scale" I think he means that D-dorian and G-mixolydian have the same 7 notes as C-major, C,D,E,...B. It's his classification of modes into "tonic modes" and "dominant modes" that puzzles me. Anyhow, the general rule is: accompany in the mode of the air, and avoid 7-chords (C7, G7, A7, D7 and so forth). Do you have any examples of airs that you want to accompany ? T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 01:45 PM (#198760) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird The Peter Paul & Mary song which uses a major version of Orientis Partibus as the basis of its tune is called "The Friendly Beasts". Most of you probably knew that already, but I didn't until just now, so I thought there might be others to whom a title might be more useful than a single line quoted from the body of the song. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 01:52 PM (#198764) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha Sorry, Peter, I thought that is what I did......:) fer instance, Old Joe Clark is in (usually)A, but it is an A without the last (G) sharp; if you play the G# it will sound OK, but without it there is a more "minory?" or Appalachian feel to the tune. Also, a lot of Scottish tunes are A w/o the G#, as you can get a more bag-pipey feel/sound to the tune. "Road to Lisdoonvarna" should be in Dorian, but alison is correct in that most people just use Major and minor. Using modal chords changes the character of the song in a subtle way, usually felt emotionally by non-musicians, sometimes heard by musicians, and usually ignored by all! Lap dulcimer players are generally much more concerned with modes than guitar players because the scale is built inot the fretboard--as in diatonic, rather than chromatic. |
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21 Mar 00 - 02:09 PM (#198775) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Sorcha, Your approach seems to differ from mine. I would not say an E-dorian scale has E-flat. What I call an E-dorian scale has the same notes as the D-major scale, but the final is on E: E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D. I would accompany an E-dorian melody with E-minor, B-minor, G-major, A-major, D-major, and other chords containing these notes. I would not use an A-minor chord (as I might in E-minor), or any seven-chord. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 02:30 PM (#198782) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha oops, you are right, I was talking about the E dorian scale starting from middle C, so I could compare it with the C minor natural (aeolian scale). I bet we're over his head, and oughta let him rest and try to absorb! |
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21 Mar 00 - 02:33 PM (#198784) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bruce O. Among 5001 folk and old popular tunes of the British Isles stressed note and mode coded in file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website there are 1619 of major mode, or 32.3% of the total. Minor mode, which is not the 2nd most common mode, accounts for 272 tunes, or 5.4% of the total. Together they account for 37.8 % of the tunes. The other 62% of the tunes are of one of 161 other modes. [All the modes and the number of tunes in them can be displayed with option 9 of the program there, and all the tunes in any one mode can be displayed with option 10.]
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21 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM (#198789) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. er, gulp, 161??? yours, Peter T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 02:48 PM (#198790) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Sorcha, I don't think we're over his head. He said at the start he understood the basic structure of the different scales, he was just wondering what it meant to a guitarist. When he wrote "Sorcha, you are way ahead of me", I think he was actually answering Praise (who is trying to cultivate a method of instinctive feel for the different modes.) He was saying (I think) that he needs to know what to play before he can learn what sounds right. This thread seems to be full of slips. I typed "G" when I meant "F", you seem to by typing "E" when you mean "C", Peter T. wrote "Sorcha" when I think he meant "Praise", and Praise wrote "core" when she meant "note". T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM (#198792) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., don't panic. If "161" is not another slip, then the I suspect the number is arrived at by (1) counting various hexatonic and pentatonic modes separately and (2) adding chromatic modes. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 02:56 PM (#198795) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: MMario Peter - don't gulp....major mode plus minor mode plus whatever mode IS the 2nd most common (Bruce left us guessing) account for a MINIMUM of 44.1 per cent of the tunes. |
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21 Mar 00 - 03:03 PM (#198798) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bruce O. 161 was not a slip, but I may have coded some wrong, and music engravings sometimes have errors. Note that most modes do not even have names. You will see the names of those that have them using option 9 of my program. |
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21 Mar 00 - 03:13 PM (#198802) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. You are right Okie, my apologies Sorcha/Praise. Sorry I haven't been able to reply -- I am sort of catching a few moments today between the next onslaught of students, and so I cannot absorb all this (let alone make sense of it). It will have to wait until I have some peaceful time. Right now it makes no sense -- but I have made the connection to the variables in singing, which is some help. Continuing thanks however. yours, Peter T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM (#198808) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: MMario So Bruce, what IS the 2nd most common mode? And IS minor mode third, or are there more then one mode between major and minor in popularity? |
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21 Mar 00 - 03:26 PM (#198810) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird F.Mud.I a basic treatment of renaissance scales is here, and an on-line primer of music theory is here.. The author of the article on renaissance scales remarks that "The pure diatonic modes seem to be completely satisfying only when they are used for unaccompanied melody -- plainsong or folk-song, for instance", but I disagree. T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 05:16 PM (#198855) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) The terms Tonic and Dominant refer to the the 1st and Fifth tones in the diatonic scale--and the scales and chords that are based on them--Classical music uses major and minor scales (not really but...) and a harmonic system that is based on the intervals in what pretty much works out to be the tempered scale-- Harmonies music of the sort that we know, as well as the circle of fifths (or fourths, depending on which way you want to go around) will not work in modal music...neither will that tempered scale convention that allows transposition of anything melody or harmonic part into any of the chromatic keys-- Peter T--you yourself restricted this discussion, in the opening post, to the use of these so called modes--now your bringing in all this speculation about"if someone from a non-" stick to the subject, or all hope is lost!!!! Let's restrict our conversation to contemporary use of modes--because the rest of this discussion is just going to confuse everything-- Let's assume that we are in the key of C, and that the words mode and scal are interchangeable--A Dorian mode simply would be D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D. the D major scale would be D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D--The Dominant scale would be G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G--when you play over a vamp of |Dm7-G7|. you can wail your little heart our using either the dominant or the dorian--even though this is in the key of C-if you try to play a C-scale, it won't sound that good-- The obvious question is, when the notes are the same, what is the difference? The difference is betweeen where you start, move toward, and end-which would be the fundamental and the fifth, in each scale-- The Dm, and the Dorian scale are part of the Dominant harmony, so your ear fits them together with the G7,as unresolved sounding--
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21 Mar 00 - 06:09 PM (#198888) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Let me try and make some sense of this for myself, and this will give you experts an easy target so as to pinpoint what I am not getting. There was a system of modes (scale patterns) that evolved over time out of church and other forms of music, and in the Western tradition the two that "won" were slight modifications of one called the Ionian, which became our major scale (sometimes called major mode); and another called the Aeolian (I simplify here) which evolved into the minor scale or mode (that has three subscales called the natural, harmonic, and melodic, which mostly show up everyday when you are going up and down a scale). So a key like C has Aminor as its relative. The major scale we use all the time has the following interval pattern (tone (T); semitone (S)): T-T-S-T-T-T-S. So if you play a standard C scale on the piano on the white keys from C to shining C, you are fine. When you want to do the same sort of scale starting at D you have to add sharps in order to STAY IN THE SAME MODE, that is, the same pattern of tones and semitones. If you are working in the minor scale, the natural minor is T-S-T-T-S-T-T. Again if you want to stay in that mode and you change the starting note, you have to add sharps and flats to keep that pattern going. Now, if you go into Dorian (for example), you can start on any note, but the pattern is: T-S-T-T-T-S-T. This is like starting on "D" on the white keys of the piano, and going up, still on the white keys. (If you look at the C pattern above, you can see that we have just moved up one letter in the T-S pattern). And I assume that when people say "E-Dorian", they mean I am in the Dorian mode, and am going to stay there, but I am starting on the E note. So if you are confronted with this on a piano or a guitar, you have to figure out the sharps and flats that will keep this pattern right. O.K. Now a number of people have suggested that Dorian is big in Scottish music. They have also said that another mode is what is called "Mixolydian". This one is like starting on G on the piano, and going up the white keys to the next G. Its pattern is: T-T-S-T-T-S-T. If this is close to right, am I right in assuming: 1) People are calling things D-Dorian and G-mixolydian simply as a shorthand because of the piano white keys analogy I was using above. You don't have to start on these notes at all, as long as you keep the patterns. 2) Some of the suggestions above, about dropping sharps and flats, etc., when you go into Mixolydian or whatever, are really rough ways of keeping the modal pattern? 3) Can someone restate the modes and their folk connections, i.e., some familiar songs and their structures according their modes, just so as to stake this to the ground? There are bits and pieces in this thread and the other one, but it would be nice to have someone articulate why, for instance, there seem to be Mixolydian fiddle tunes, and not, oh I don't know, Locrian. Whew! yours, Peter (ducking the cries of horror from the experts) |
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21 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM (#198891) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha YES!! The only thing you have missed is that the pattern can be in ANY key, therefore the key is also important. What you have picked up on is the TRADITIONAL (church) key for each mode. You got it! Can you apply it to a guitar now? ( and froget about Locrain--it's mega-weird sounding!!) |
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21 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM (#198897) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Sorcha, are you saying what I think you are saying? Let me see if I get this last point. In the standard system we have a set of keys with related sharps and flats which hold the whole thing together - C no sharps, G one sharp, etc. This is the result of the whole business I described earlier. So if you want to make a G scale work in standard system you have to add one sharp to the basic run of the notes. But this also sets up the possibility of a G chord with its own system of dominants, subdominants, relative minors and so on (the classic I-IV-V7 etc) . What you are saying is that in each of the modes there is the possibility of another whole set of interlocking keys with their own internal system of dominant, subdominant, etc., relationships????????? Is that right????????? yours, Peter |
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21 Mar 00 - 06:31 PM (#198900) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. "G chord" should be "G key" in let us say Dorian. |
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21 Mar 00 - 06:36 PM (#198904) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Art Thieme Folks, modes are not hard to figure when you think about them in terms of a traditional 3-string Appalachian dulcimer. Modes are, simply, different SCALES. (But the intervals have been changed to protect the innocent.) A mode is a set of musical rules that structure the melody of a song. Modes are scales of the same general type as our familiar scale (major) and they have only 7 tones in their scales. The ionian mode is the C major scale of today.
The scale intervals or steps are C--D--E-F--G--A--B-C (--denotes a whole step and - denotes a 1/2 step). Notice where the whole and half steps apear on the scale. Now look at the frets on the Appalachian dulcimer. BEGINNING AT THE THIRD FRET , notice that the spacings of the frets correspond to the whole and half steps as you move up the fretboard for ONE OCTAVE. This scale is called the IONIAN MODE (do, re, me, fa, so, la, ti, do). When you are in the ionian mode you cannot have any other notes/tones but these. An important difference between the various modes or modal scales is the VARYING LOCATION OF THE TWO HALF STEPS of the diatonic scale. For the ionian scale they apear between the 3rd and 4th tones and between the 7th and 8th tones.The letters of the musical scale above are for the purpose of indicating the intervals of the modal scales and do not necessarily imply exact pitch. (Strings are tuned to each other and do not have to correspond/relate to concert pitch. Ionian, or MAJOR TUNING is good for most songs. AEOLIAN (minor mode) is next. If a musical work requires a flatted 7th note instead of a natural 7th note, you would use MIXOLYDIAN MODE ("John Hardy"--"Tom Joad"). The DORIAN SCALE is the same as the C major scale except a flatted 3rd and 7th replace their naturals. By fooling around with the various modes and learning what notes are in each, you can decide which mode would be right for different songs. (trial and error method) In order to tune into some modes you may need to turn the entire dulcimer down in order to not break any strings.
Ionian mode or major mode. "do" or C to C (C--D--E-F--G--A--B-C)
Dorian mode "re" or D to D (D--E-F--G--A--B-C--D) Phrygian mode "mi" or E to E. (E-F--G--A--B-C--D--E) From ionian mode: Press 1st string at 2nd fret and tune the 1st string down until it sounds the same as the 2nd string open. Home tone is at the 5th fret.
Lydian mode "fa" or F to F. (F--G--A--B-C--D--E-F)
Myxolydian mode "so" or G to G (G--A--B-C--D--E-F--G)
Aeolian mode (minor mode) "la" or A to A. (A--B-C--D--E-F--G--A)
Pie-ala mode.... ;-) Art Thieme
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21 Mar 00 - 06:50 PM (#198913) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,whatever Peter T. You seem to understand the concept of the relative minor key, ie Am is the relative minor of the major key C. I think of D Dorian as the relative dorian mode for the major key of C. E dorian would be the relative dorian for the key of D. No a tune in D dorian mode doesn't necessarily have to begin on the D but it should probably end there. |
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21 Mar 00 - 07:05 PM (#198928) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. I notice in the earlier thread that it is stated that Irish tunes tend to be Dorian, Scottish Mixolydian. Apologies. It is also noted that, in the Dorian, because of the way the T-S structure works in Dorian, the dominant chord in any Dorian key (let us use D for the moment) is usually the VII, and not the standard key Vth -- which in this case would be a C major, which I guess explains the hovering back and forth between the tonic (D) and its right next door neighbour (C) which someone said was characteristic of the Dorian. [Is this why Guest, whatever wants to call D the "relative dorian" of C major?] yours, Peter T. P.S. Thanks also to Art for the dulcetry. |
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21 Mar 00 - 07:10 PM (#198934) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. I have to stop for the evening. I am totally mindblown by this. Whew!! yours, Peter T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 07:10 PM (#198935) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha Peter T--YES AGAIN! It is the scale pattern that counts--you can play the Dorian (whatever) scale tune starting on whatever note you want to, as long as you keep the pattern of full and half steps correct. This means that there ARE different chords for each key in each mode, but some are MUCH more common than others, i.E. we all keep talking about D/dorian and A/mixolydian. Just learn the patterns and you can figure out which notes to drop/add to a tune/scale in any key. YOU GOT IT GUY! |
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21 Mar 00 - 07:27 PM (#198948) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., you seem to have gotten the relationships among the scales down. You can if you wish define a species of dorian mode with a "dominant" on A, and some treatments do this, but not every air in the dorian mode necessarily has a dominant on the 5th. I repeat my preference for avoiding seven chords as tending to sound out-of-place in a dorian or mixolydian context. M.Ted, your treatment is a sort of counterpoint theory I have never encountered. (Well, to be honest, I haven't encountered much counterpoint theory of any sort.) You seem to be saying that in some circumstances you can play against C-major melodies with G-mixolydian and D-dorian countermelodies. The overall context of your description seems to be a chromatic major-key context, which wouldn't seem precisely to answer Peter T's original question of how to accompany mixolydian and dorian melodies in a way that reinforces the unique characteristics of each mode--though your comments are certainly fascinating in their own right, and I hope you'll elaborate on them some. I was familiar with the terms "tonic" and "dominant" referring to positions in a particular scale. In your earlier post you seemed to be using them as absolute characteristics of entire scales. Now I see that you mean them as relative terms: the G-mixolydian scale is the "dominant scale" to the C-major scale. Presumably the D-mixolydian scale is the "dominant scale" to the G-major scale in your terminology. Is that right ? T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 08:34 PM (#198993) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) M.Ted, after further reflection I've decided that what you were expounding would be better called improvisation theory than counterpoint theory. Your were saying that an underlay of certain chord progressions in a C-major context encourages improvisation of G-mixolydian or D-dorian melodies over them. Am I understanding you right ? Peter T., do you have any melodies in mind that you want to classify or accompany ? Was my example in ABC notation any help ? T. |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:04 PM (#199011) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Alice Art, thank you for that slice of pie. |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:32 PM (#199028) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) What is happening here is exactly why I curse the fool who started to use the word "mode" to describe certain scales used in contemporary music practice--People confuse the modes as used in A)contemporary Pop music and Jazz B)Church C)Folk and traditional music, which are related, but not the same (incidentally, Art's explanation above should be printed out and saved) and when they become entangled, it is impossible to get things straightened out until everyone understands the differences between each-- T--I wasn't talking about counterpoint, I was talking about what Jazz people do with the "Dorian" and "dominant" scale-which is simply to play them over chord progressions-- Peter, you need to get a book that provides simple explanations that you can pour over until you understand them--I recommend(if I could, I would actually require it!!) The Harvard Brief Dictionary of Music, which you should be able to find anywhere-- Also, you should get the concepts behind major and minor scales and the keys and basic harmonies really clear in your mind before you start trying to deal with "modes" because, in order to make sense out of them, you must know the other stuff--
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21 Mar 00 - 09:51 PM (#199043) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Alice (incidentally, Art's explanation above should be printed out and saved) M.TED, I am laughing out loud, because as I read this thread tonight and got to Art's message, I immediately opened a text file and copied and pasted just Art's message into it... |
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21 Mar 00 - 09:59 PM (#199045) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) OK, Now I am going to explain something about modes-- At the beginning of this, there was a scale, with fixed intervals (the steps, incidentally, were not of tempered--so that a full step in one part of the scale was not necessarily the same as a full step in another part of the scale) which started on D--the system of modes was developed to allow pieces to be composed centered on each of the steps of the scale-- There were originally Four Authentic Modes--Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian and each had a corresponding Plagal Mode, such as the Hypodorian, which was centered on the fifth step of the mode, and was used at a proscribed place in the composition-- It is important to note two things--first, this music was not harmonic music, and second, each mode began one and only one pitch (only the Dorian could begin on D, etc) The Ionian mode and the Aeolian mode, which evolved into the major and minor scales, were not introduced until the sixteenth century-- Enough for now-- |
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21 Mar 00 - 10:27 PM (#199058) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bruce O. MMario, what is the 2nd most popular mode depends on where you get your tunes. I think for a general run of instrumental tunes minor mode would be 2nd, but for the 700 or so English traditional vocal tunes of the late 19th and early 20th century that I've coded, minor/aeolian is in 4th place. For the 700+ traditional Irish vocal tunes in Huntington and Herrmann's 'Sam Henry's Songs of the People' (coded at the end of the book) minor/Aeolian is down to 8th place. I've added some more tunes to my file (and have about 1000 more coded, but not yet formatted to read into my program) and the mode count is now at 165.
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21 Mar 00 - 10:53 PM (#199067) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Escamillo I'm grateful to Billy Gates for the invention of the command "save as.." - this thread will be a part of my library. Sorry for not contributing (I'm not at that level yet) but I can assure you that this information is invaluable. Go on, please. Un abrazo - Andrés |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:15 PM (#199080) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Les B At this point I'll introduce thread creep -- Some time in the past six months there was a thread with a "blue clicky thang" to a web site that had a series of Pentatonic scales laid out for fiddle (and, by default, mandolin). I foolishly forgot to bookmark it, and haven't been able to find it since. It was very well done. Do any of you scaly modeists know where that might be ? I'd be ever so grateful !!! |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:20 PM (#199082) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird The church modes weren't characterized by beginning on any note, only by their finalis on that note, and by an ambitus, which, however, could be exceeded slightly. Melodies of very narrow or broad range, like those with gapped scales, could be modally ambiguous. Since these were formal classifications, not every melody fit precisely. But the classification of hexatonic folk-melodies according as dorian, phrygian, and so forth, strikes me as perfectly appropriate. If Jesu Nostra Redemptio belongs to mode 8 (sometimes called hypomixolydian) on G, "The New Irish Girl" is just as reasonably assigned to mode 7 (mixolydian) on D (a transposed mode). Nor is the validity of this assignment of the melody necessarily destroyed by adding harmony or polyphony. |
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21 Mar 00 - 11:21 PM (#199084) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Another slip. I meant "heptatonic", not "hexatonic" in my last post. T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 12:02 AM (#199108) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) I didn't mean to confuse anyone with the use of the word start--, I only meant to describe the focal point of the mode---it is a little difficult to pick the right words to describe these things, because modes were considered in descending order, not in ascending order, the way we think of scales today-- And you are perfectly right in saying it is reasonable to use modal names to describe folk melodies--it probably isn't unreasonable to assume that there is some relationship, as well-- As to harmonies, my point is simply that harmonies and chords are an innovation of diatonic music, not modal music, although it is certainly possible to add chords and harmonies without compromising the "modal" quality--it is a modern innovation(at least, if you consider the sixteenth century modern)-- Today, MiddleEastern pop bands accompany melodies using classical arabic scales with guitar chords--on using the same principle-- My main objective was to try to clarify the point that "modes" predated the diatonic scale, modern ideas of harmony.and the concept of being able to play different major and minor scales in different keys--
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22 Mar 00 - 11:53 AM (#199164) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Peter T. Sorcha (or whomever), I think I made some kind of error in my thinking, or maybe the books are confusing me. As you can tell, once I get into this, I get tenacious in trying to make it clear to my poor brain. Please help. I am trying to make sense of what you said about being able to play the "patterns in any key". The question I want to ask is whether "any key" means "any key" in standard major mode, or any key structure generated by a new mode. In the books I have (their explanations are lousy, and stop about here), there is a similar statement that you can start these patterns - Dorian, etc. -- on any key, but the key is in the standard scale. The example they use is, of course, C, so in standard scale you could have C-Ionian (the standard), D-Dorian (doing a Dorian progression starting on the D note), E-Phrygian, and so on. IT THEN SAYS YOU DO THE SAME IN ALL OTHER KEYS. This means, for instance, if you shift to the key of G, then you would of course usually start on the G note to do the scale, but you would have to add an F# to ---? This is one question: 1) If you are in a standard key like G, and you want to go up, as we did earlier in the key of C, which would now in G be G-Ionian, A-Dorian, B-Phrygian, etc., do you add the sharps to the progression, thus changing the Tone-Semitone (T-S) pattern throughout, or what? What do you do with standard sharps and flats when you are doing a Dorian in the standard key of G, or F, or whatever? And my more basic question: 2) More generally, this whole approach -- that is, building your patterns on the major scale and its keys --sounds different than what I jumped to as my conclusion from what Sorcha said. I assumed that what was meant was that a different mode -- let us say Dorian -- would have its own system of keys and relationships. The book approach (and maybe this has something to do with the dispute going on in the last few postings that I don't understand) seems to require you to build your different modes beginning on the standard scale linked to standard keys in the standard modes -- C-Ionian, D-Dorian, etc. But is that really necessary, or just an artefact of teaching people to play? What I want to ask is whether these modes create a musical universe of their own, which can -- but doesn't have to be -- connected to the standard major/minor note structure as set out in the books. I am not sure I am being clear about what I am trying to say, but I am trying..... I think that I may be doing something very, very wrong here, which is to try and relate the "well-tempered" system, which was designed to generate a tightly linked musical universe so you could go back and forward smoothly between keys, to something different. I can't help thinking that these other modes must be messier and not easily connected to the other modes -- the whole effort to rationalise the musical universe is what gave us major/minor. This approach must somehow be wrong, and yet....yours, Peter T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 12:19 PM (#199184) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: IanC I think the people who are saying forget modes are probably right unless you're a musical professional trying to fit things into slots (which is perfectly OK if you are). The whole thing came up because a lot of classically trained musicians started collecting folk music and song in the 19th century. They found that the uneducated folk weren't always using the major scale which they had been brought up with (why should they) and it confused them. In particular, a lot of songs were sung with a "flattened 7th" - that is the note below the keynote (normally half a tone below it) was sung somewhere between a half and a whole tone below. At first, they just thought the stupid peasants were singing out of key. Later they realised that this was so widespread it couldn't be an accident. This worried them - how could these uneducated people do things they found hard? To try and describe this, they used the different modes mentioned above. Unfortunately, even this didn't work and their only recourse was to record the stuff. Nowadays, we are probably too educated to sing the stuff properly, so we are inclined to sing it modally. Confused? I am! |
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22 Mar 00 - 12:41 PM (#199212) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha Peter, when you are un-GUESTed, check your personal messages. |
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22 Mar 00 - 12:42 PM (#199213) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., as I mentioned earlier the question of temperament is separable. Dorian, phrygian, etc. modes can be built up from 7 notes and their octaves: C, D, E ...B. It doesn't matter whether these frequencies are 12-equal, pythagorean, quarter-comma meantone, well-tempered (not, I think, the same as 12-equal) or any other temperament. The scale is defined by the relative positions of the tones and semitones. The same applies to the scale G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. All the traditional scales can be defined on these notes, in any temperament, though the frequencies will differ in different temperaments. Now, IF you work in a 12-equal system, that might create relationships among scales on different finals that might not otherwise exist. One might find, and exploit harmonically, relationships among D-dorian, E-dorian, F-dorian, and so forth, just as theorists find relationships among different major keys. There are various schools of thought, arent' there, about what are "good" and "bad" key modulations ? I don't know any reason a priori why such rules and relationships mightn't be devised for scales besides major and minor. T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 01:16 PM (#199237) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Peter T. Sorry, at a different computer today, and in a different place: so your assistance Sorcha is delayed (but welcome). Okie, you are introducing more new language. Let me see if I can get this straight. The basic scale language, whatever, wherever, is from one octave to another, C to C, D to D, whatever. 12-equal is what, 12 semitones all equal in a 7 note scale plus octave? Anyway, laying out these notes, you can build any mode you like starting anywhere you like. The modes tend -- to our ears -- to cluster around things like D as the starting point for Dorian, and so on. You don't say if in building other modes up starting in a standard scale whether you take into account the sharps and flats when you get out of C major and into (Say) D major -- you are still in standard major mode, but are building a related Dorian sequence. What I mean is not just the fact that there is an F# or a C# as the beginning note: Do you have to alter the sequence in the new mode to take the sharps and flats of the standard key into account? Or are you now in completely new terrain? The book(s) stop before this point. Or maybe you do say, and I am just not getting it. My temperament may be too well-tempered. yours, Peter T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 01:22 PM (#199240) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha And I also found your Bantry Bay chords in the DT, under Satr of the County down! See that thread. |
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22 Mar 00 - 01:39 PM (#199257) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., I still don't see what your problem is. You can start a diatonic major scale on any frequency. It is (as I think you know) the sequence of tones and semitones that makes it a major scale. If you create a scale starting on the second of the major scale, you get a dorian scale. It contains exactly the same notes as the major scale, just in a different order, and the sequence of tones and semitones is exactly the same as in a dorian scale with its tonic on any other note. Hence A-dorian contains A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, exactly the same notes as for G-major. No additonal sharps or flats are needed, but no fewer, either. To build major on G and dorian on A, F# must exist, but no other sharp or flat need exist. Obviously, though, this approach presupposes the prior existence of F-natural; or, put another way, it presupposes some at-least-locally-agreed-upon frequency standard which fixes A, B, C...G in such a way that the creation of an F# is necessary if one is to have a dorian scale with its final (or tonic) was previously designated "A". T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM (#199259) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bruce O. The just intonation scale has 21 notes in the octave, but that's just for C major/ A minor. If you want to transpose to other keys you have to add more notes, for a total of 70, but that also lets you play in 6 major/ minor keys that you can't get with the 12 note scale. All 70 notes are given in a file on my website, starting with the basic 21, then adding those needed for 1 sharp or flat on the key signature, then 2, then 3, to 7, then the extra 6. There is also a treatment there of all the normal 7, 6, and 5 notes scales and a click on to Jack Campin's website for an alternative treatment with many examples as ABCs. File COMBCOD2.TXT now has over 5300 tunes codes in 166 total modes. |
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22 Mar 00 - 02:06 PM (#199268) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Here is my table of frequencies copied from the other thread, with additional notes. The first column is pythagorean, the second column is 12-equal. Frequencies are in Herz, A-natural=440 in both systems.
A 440.000 440.000 T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 02:22 PM (#199284) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Peter T. Hmmm, Okie. Let me try to pinpoint my stupidity. Always a tough task -- where to start.... Suppose I start on a C note. I build a standard scale, C to C. No sharps, no flats. Now I shift to a D note. To build a standard scale starting on D, because of the T-S pattern shift, I need two sharps (F# and C#) to make the key of D in standard. That would be called D-Ionian or D major. O.K. People usually start a Mixolydian on G, but suppose instead I decide to create D-Mixolydian. I start on D, and go up the scale to the next D. Would the only accidental in it that would appear on standard sheet music be a flat (Mixolydian has a flatted seventh, right?) on C? It would have nothing to do with the F# and C# in a D major scale. We only link it to D because in our standard system, the D to D pattern on the white keys of the piano creates Dorian. So: when Sorcha says you can do this pattern in "any key" that doesn't mean that. What it means is you can do it from any note. So when someone says A-Dorian, it doesn't mean Dorian in the key of G, as my books imply -- they say that in the standard key of G you would have G-Ionian, A-Dorian, etc.-- that is just for neatness sake -- it has nothing to with the key of G -- it just means we have a Dorian scale that starts on A, and it could be in the standard key of E or F, for that matter. Right??? yours, Peter T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM (#199294) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,soddy Peter, It helps to understand modes, and the chords that can be structured from their scales when accompanying fiddle tunes. The most frequently used modes in fiddle music are the Aeolian, the Dorian, and the Myxolydian. In the Aeolian, or natural minor scale, for instance you would know that the I chord is minor, the IV chord is minor and the V7 chord is minor. In the Dorian mode, the I chord is minor, the IV chord is Major, and the V chord is minor, although more often the VII chord is used which is Major. In the Myxolydian mode, the I chord is Major, the IV chord is Major, the V chord is minor. Usually the VII chord is substituted for the V chord, the VII being Major. It may help to associate a well know fiddle tune with a particular mode, for example Old Joe Clark is a Myxolydian tune, so is June Apple. (Cold) Frosty Morning is a Dorian tune. Does this help? |
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22 Mar 00 - 02:45 PM (#199295) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird The mixolydian intervals are TTSTTST. If I start on D, then I generate: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. C is already a whole tone below D. The Key-signature for a melody in this scale would show one sharp. Saying that this melody is "in the key of" G might or might not be accurate depending on what was meant. To say that a melody built on an A-dorian scale could be "in the key of" E or F might be accurate in some contexts, though I can't imagine any such context. That is, I can't imagine trying to communicate any information about such a melody alone that I would think was best communicated by saying that the melody was "in the key of" E or F. If the melody were embedded in a larger work, I might designate the larger work as being in the key of E or F. Whether a work in F with an embedded melody in D-mixolydian or A-dorian could be made to sound good is a separate question. In a 12-equal system, where F#=Gb, I suppose one could pull it off if one were clever enough. T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM (#199310) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Amos Okie, and others who have donated their wisdom to this thread: I am less skilled in this kind of music theory than Peter T., and I can only say I greatly appreciate your erudition and your patience in clarifying the realities of these terms. Especially working up and down the subject instead, as might be easier, starting from basic terms and working up from there, it is not untrying to communicate a subject with so many curves in it. You are part of what makes this community so strong and vital. Many many thanks. A |
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22 Mar 00 - 03:59 PM (#199317) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) Peter-- I'll try to give you an overall explanation, and hope that it clarifies your questions-- A Scale is a pattern of whole steps and half steps that cover the span of an octave--generally, it includes seven different pitches, the lowest pitch and the highest being the same-- Each of the scales that we have been talking about(Major, Minor, Dorian Mode...etc) has it's own, distinct, order of whole steps and half steps-- Our modern, chromatic, system divides the octave up into 12 equally spaced half steps--this allows you to begin any scale (any pattern of whole steps and half steps) on any note, and apart from the difference in pitch, the relationships will sound the same-- (Note:The older modal system only divided the octave into seven parts, some of which were whole steps, and some of which were half steps--you couldn't change a Dorian mode into a major scale, because they didn't have a pitch in between the F and the G--) (W=Whole tone, H=Half tone, WH=Whole tone plus a half tone) If you start on G and use the major scale pattern, W-W-H-W-W-W-H, you will have a G major scale (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G) If you use a Dorian mode pattern, W-H-W-W-W-H-D, you will have a G Dorian mode (G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G)-- You may even create a scale like my Hijaz Makam (The scale used in "Miserlou") which is H-WH-H-W-H-WH-H, (G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F#-G) Even though you can change a C major scale to a Lydian mode by changing the F to an F#, To change a G major scale--you must raise the fourth step in the scale, which is C, to C#(A G major scale actually has an F# in it)-- Also, don't confuse the G Dorian mode (which simply is a Dorian mode that starts on G) with the Dorian mode relative to the key of G major (which starts on A) Basically, you have to remember that the sharps and flats are a way of adjusting the pitches to give you the intervals that you need for the scale you want-- If you want a Dorian mode that relates to the key of, say, A--you must start on the second step of the A major scale, and use only the notes that are in the A scale--which are: A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A, the mode would be B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A-B-- It is a mistake to try to try to establish an overarching relationship between the modes--the modes only exist if you use fairly narrow rules to define the place that melodic phrases end--other than this, since the notes are all the same, and you are playing over the same chords, there is no difference between playing in Phrygian mode or an Ionian mode-- |
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22 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM (#199325) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) It took me so long to write my post that T anwered the question without my knowing it--if it is any help Peter, don't take our posts as being contradictory in any way--we are saying the same thing, just in different ways-- |
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22 Mar 00 - 04:15 PM (#199328) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird According to this link, a G-mixolydian melody "sounds good" (i.e. there are no jarring dissonances) when played over a Gsus4 chord, and a D-dorian melody sounds good when played over a Dm7 chord. M.Ted mentioned some other "sound-good" relationships of this kind. I though he was off topic, but maybe he was right on. Is it relationships of this kind, besides the obvious ones (X-mixolydian over Xsus4, X-dorian over Xm7) just mentioned, that Peter T. is trying to work out ? T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 05:09 PM (#199356) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Snuffy Perhaps this table will help to clarify how the various modes and keys inter-relate (Hope I've got the HTML right!)
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22 Mar 00 - 05:21 PM (#199365) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton The essential point about modes is that there are chord progressions based on them which define their character. For example, a C minor chord and an F major chord define a C dorian mode. An A minor chord and a G major chord (or E minor) define an A Aeolian mode. The G major chord and an F major chord define a G Myxolydian mode. A C major and a D major chord define a C Lydian mode. The E major or E minor chord and an F major chord define an E Phrygian mode. The Lochryan mode is a theoretical one and not really found in the folk music tradition. For furthur information on this, Bronson has written something about it and if you really want to get theoretical then you could read Bill Russell's tome on Lydian tonality. (Bill Russell is a jazz arranger and trombonist who has worked with modes in jazz). Frank |
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22 Mar 00 - 05:23 PM (#199367) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Art Thieme Is Hijaz Makam related to Tommy? Art |
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22 Mar 00 - 06:26 PM (#199416) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) Ach-you volkzingers!! Alvays making with xe funny buziness! |
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22 Mar 00 - 06:38 PM (#199424) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Peter T. Raising my intelligence level always takes a small army, so I thank all those striving so hard and perhaps futilely to do so -- I feel a bit like a mule in quicksand. At some point I want to get to the more interesting stuff, which is what is used with what. However, if I think I have got this, M. Ted is saying something no one has said before, and it is the crux of what I have been asking -- the difference I have been trying to get straight. To quote: "Don't confuse the G Dorian mode (which simply is a Dorian mode that starts on G) with the Dorian mode relative to the key of G major." THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS BEEN CONFUSING ME.
Sorry to keep translating this back into my language/examples -- I am trying to keep some personal consistency here. O.K. Let me see if I can get this right.
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22 Mar 00 - 07:12 PM (#199447) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Peter T. Or are we? If I take an A scale with its 3 sharps and "Dorianize it", do I end up with the G major scale with its 1 sharp on F? I guess so. So it is the same after all? yours, Peter T. |
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22 Mar 00 - 09:17 PM (#199562) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST No I think you've hit one of the major translation difficulties there Peter. At the moment, the concept of modes is becoming more and more fashionable in the folk music world. I'm not saying they haven't been around before but the terminology is being used by more and more people with less and less accuracy. And lets face it musicians can be very strange about the way they describe what they're doing: "A third plus a fifth is a seventh.." "You failed grade one didn't you." Therefore you can get into any number of misunderstandings about what is actually being described. I will say G dorian and mean the relative dorian of F but not everybody does use this. I don't, now I come to think of it know if this correct but it is similar to the way I describe an D minor (relative to F major) scale. |
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23 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM (#199846) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Thanks guest, and all. I think I have perhaps exhausted everyone's good will (temperament) on the technical side, so have decided to go away and see if I can work through a good book on the subject, given this great start. To revert to the really interesting topic, could anyone give some more examples of reasonably well known tunes or types of music in different modes? It would be nice to have some echoing in the ear as we converse. yours, Peter T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM (#199847) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird I don't ordinarily think of a D-minor scale as if it were a D-major scale with a lowered third, sixth, and seventh. I find it more useful to think of it as a cyclic permutation of F-major. Thinking of a dorian scale in terms of modifying a major scale on the same tonic (by lowering the third and seventh) seems as unhelpful as thinking of a minor scale as a modification of a major scale on the same tonic. I suppose it might lead to insights that might not otherwise occur to one, but if I want to think of a dorian scale as related to other scales, I prefer to think of it as either (1) a cyclic permutation of the major scale with its tonic on the note a step below the dorian's tonic (X-dorian as a cyclic permutation of (X-1)-major); or (2) a minor scale on the same tonic with a raised 6th (X-dorian as X-minor with raised 6th.) Likewise one can think of X-mixolydian as (1) a cyclic permutation of X+3 major or (2) X-major with a lowered 7th. I wouldn't ordinarily think of it as a modification of X-minor, though there's nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about doing so. If you look at my chording of Orientis Partibus above, you'll see that the melody-plus-chords has some characteristics of a work in C-major and some characteristics of a work in G-major. I find it easiest to think of it in the first instance as simply mixolydian, rather than "an air in C which closes on the dominant" or "an air in G with a lowered 7th." T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 09:41 AM (#199852) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., you never confirmed or denied whether abc notation was useful to you. Just in case it is, here is a dorian air in abc notation:
X:1 T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 10:04 AM (#199863) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Sorry, Okie, missed that earlier. ABC is OK. I am capturing all this fitfully!! yours, Peter T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 10:26 AM (#199869) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Peter T., I think I now understand one of your earlier questions. Maybe you've worked out the answer yourself by now, but anyhow: If you want to generate a mixolydian scale by lowering the 7th of a major scale on the same tonic, then, yes, you do "take into account" the sharps or flats of the major scale. If you want to generate X-mixolydian from X-major, and X-major has Z at the 7th, then you change Z to Z-flat. If X-major has Z-flat at the 7th, then (assuming 12-equal temperament) you lower Z-flat to (Z-1)-natural. If X-major has Z-sharp at the 7th, you lower to Z-natural. If you want to generate X-dorian by taking X-minor and raising the 6th, and X-minor has Y at the 6th, then you create X-dorian by raising Y to Y-sharp. If X-minor has Y-flat at the sixth, you create X-dorian by raising to Y-natural. If X-minor has Y-sharp at the sixth, you create X-dorian (assuming 12-equal temperament) by raising Y-sharp to (Y+1)-natural. To answer another question, yes, the X-dorian created by raising the 6th of X-minor is the same X-dorian that you get by a cyclic permutation of (X-1)-major. The X-mixolydian you get by lowering the 7th of X-major is the same X-mixolydian you get by a cyclic permutation of (X+3)-major. T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM (#199871) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Mary in Kentucky I think y'all have answered all my questions about modes. Now if I could just figure out what the questions were. |
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23 Mar 00 - 10:39 AM (#199873) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) Peter T-- You sound like you've got it--and I am really glad-- Thank you for sticking with this line of questioning till you got what you needed--it is the only way to learn about music, even if it seems unpleasant and messy--a lot of people don't have the tenacity to hang in through the flak, confusion, and periodic despair, and the result is that they get hung up on a question that they never quite understand the answer to, and never get any farther-- I am going to save this thread, because you managed to squeeze a lot of very useful information out of people--though most of is fairly dense and requires further interpretation-- It also shows what a wonderful resource Mudcat can be-- Aloha, Ted |
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23 Mar 00 - 11:07 AM (#199895) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) Okie--I had to change the Key designation in order to get your abc file to play--the problem that I have is that I had to change it to Dm and now I don't know if I should leave the modulation as original, or change it to Dorian, in order to get it to sound right-- |
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23 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM (#199904) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird M.Ted, that's wierd. I thought all abc software would respond correctly if the formal, written key signature were specified in the K-field, while not all abc software would accept "D-dorian" there. Maybe this is a bug. Obviously if you specify D-minor you need to set all the B's to B-natural by hand (that would be B^ in a D-minor context, wouldn't it ? I seldom use accientals in abc notation) T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 11:46 AM (#199930) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) I reset the Key to D and went into the play menu under intonation and set it to Dorian--I think that this solves my problem--next question, in the fourth from the last measure, there is a z2 which plays as a sort of click--what note should this be? Aloha, Ted |
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23 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM (#199941) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird In my dialect of abc, "z" indicates a rest. T. |
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23 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM (#199942) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton The confusion about the labeling of modal scales comes from the fact that they were supposedly conceived before our standard notational system. The way of identifying them came about later by relating them to the C major scale. Then, subsequently, to the other keys. The best way to identify a mode is to ignore the scale it's derived from. To call, for example, an A dorian in the key of G is unnecessary unless you are concered with modulations as in jazz. It's best to consider the A dorian as it's own entity and forget the G major scale. A good way of identifying the pitches to the respective modes would be as follows. Alter the A dorian scale from the D major scale. It would look like this: 1,2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8. Altered from the D major scale it would be D, E, F natural (altered from F#) G, A, B (the distinctive dorian note) C natural (altered from C#) and the octave D. This is a good way to understand it through ear training. Hear the alterations from the major scale. Phrygian mode: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8 Lydian mode: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Myxolydian mode: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8 Aeolian mode: (same as a natural minor scale) 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8 Lochryian mode: (A theoretical mode, not found in folk music) 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, 8 Do the respective alterations in each key and you will begin to hear these modes. Frank |
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23 Mar 00 - 01:09 PM (#199997) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) Ahh, well, that goes a long way to explaining why no note is sounded when I get to that place in the music--sorry-- |
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23 Mar 00 - 01:47 PM (#200014) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Art Thieme Good folks, I'd suggest, as I tried to indicate in my previous post here, that it would be EASIER for folkies to get a handle on the idea of modes as they apply to folkdom (and ear musicians like me) to USE an Appalachian dulcimer to ACTUALLY SEE how the modes/scales change on the dulcimer fingerboard as you re-tune and start from a different place/fret/home tone. Some of you know that JEAN RITCHIE from Viper, Kentucky is the single PERSON MOST RESPONSIBLE for bringing the 3-stringed mountain dulcimer and, therefore the modes, to the attention of all of us. I just can't yell that loud enough from here. I do want the younger folks new to this folk world to know that it was Jean and her family who showed the instrument to the whole U.S.A.----and then to the world. People can add strings or double 'em up all they want, it's still Ms Jean Ritchie who brought the dulcimer out of the hills and lovingly gave it to all of us. Jean, I love you. And THANKS !!! Art Thieme |
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23 Mar 00 - 02:02 PM (#200023) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Actually, the dulcimer revival began in the late 30s with John Jacob Niles and Frank Warner. Jean Ritchie (born c. 1914) was still a young lass in those days. But it was indeed bonnie Jean who took the Appalachian dulcimer to the Newport Folk Festival at a critical time. It attracted enough attention that the hammered dulcimer people had to call one of their societies the Original Dulcimer Something-or-other in order to distinguish themselves. T.
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23 Mar 00 - 02:11 PM (#200031) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Neil Lowe It sure sounds like there's some interesting information being imparted here...too bad I can't understand it. What was it Rick Fielding said to me in another thread about getting too complicated?: "Neil, we're just folkies here..." as if to say that this folk music stuff is relatively straightforward. Well, if that's the case, I'm glad I'm primarily a blues enthusiast...just stick to the good ole' pentatonic scale in the familiar blues keys: A, E, G, and D, mostly. I think I've got a plan, though. A la Marlon Perkins I'll hold the camera while Peter T. wrestles the alligator, euphemistically speaking. Then when he posts his Eureka summation, which, after all the mental energy he's expended, should be in terms that even I can understand, I will step in and greedily devour the fruits of all his labor. My friends will be so impressed, the neighbors equally astounded, with the depth and breadth of my knowledge, obtained at a fraction of the effort it cost to assemble it. I have no shame. Regards, Neil
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23 Mar 00 - 02:23 PM (#200037) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: M. Ted (inactive) Neil, You only think you're playing a pentatonic scale--but that is another discussion;-) |
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23 Mar 00 - 08:10 PM (#200290) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Snuffy Peter T You asked for some reasonably well-known examples. I've been searching the ABCs I've downloaded and come up with these for starters: Dorian: Garry Owen, Cuckoos Nest, 17 Come Sunday Mixolydian: Paddy O'Rafferty, Three Sheepskins, Jolly Beggarman, Morisco Phrygian: White Cockade, Campbells are Coming, Bessie Bell & Mary Gray Lydian: I found half-a-dozen tunes, but none that I'd heard of. Locrian: Couldn't find any. Let me know if you want any of these posting. Wassail! V |
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24 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM (#200883) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Thanks, Snuffy, and all -- I believe that Beethoven's string quartet, Op. 132 has a movement in the Lydian mode. I know that because it was what got me started on this long and modular road 4 short days ago. It would be great to have other tunes. I am still absorbing this information, so who knows what stupid questions may erupt. yours, Peter T. |
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24 Mar 00 - 08:49 PM (#201031) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Here is Beethoven's lydian ditty. I have tried to represent Beethoven's harmonization approximately (very approximately) by means of guitar chords.
X:1 T. |
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24 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM (#201051) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Art Thieme That thing John Jacob Niles called a dulcimer was nothing like any Appalachian dulcimer I've ever seen. It was more like a guitar that had been cut in half and then had gland trouble. Where did all those strings come from? I had a hard time taking J.J.N. seriously after he claimed so many of the songs he'd written were traditional. Art Thieme |
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24 Mar 00 - 10:31 PM (#201091) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Niles's dulcimer-on-steroids might be an eccentric design when viewed from the reference point of the Kentucky, Virginia, and North Carolina families of dulcimer. But he called it a dulcimer, people who heard it thought they were hearing a dulcimer, and so by that roundabout means he publicized the dulcimer. Frank Warner's dulcimer was made by a North Carolina maker in a traditional hourglass shape. T. |
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25 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM (#201323) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Oh man, Beethoven on guitar. How on earth did you figure out how to do that? Whew. yours, Peter T. |
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25 Mar 00 - 05:39 PM (#201390) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird That isn't actually meant to be played on a guitar (even assuming I transcribed all the harmonies right!) It's just that I don't know how to represent part music in ABC other than by writing out each part separately in the fashion of the middle ages and renaissance. Instead of that, I have tried to represent B's harmonization by means of formal guitar chords. If I were actually intabulating to the guitar, I would probably end up with something that had far fewer chord changes. T. |
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25 Mar 00 - 06:33 PM (#201414) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Sorcha Haven't bugged out on this, I just have said all I know that would be helpful, if you need anymore, we should start a new thread, this one is now over 100. I do have sheet music for mountain dulcimer tuining for Locrian mode, but it is tune written just for that purpose, and not anything any body would know. If you want it, message me with address. PS--my White Cockade and Cambells are Ionian, would be interested in the Phrygian arrangements. See my e mail at bbc's, or message me. |
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25 Mar 00 - 07:13 PM (#201437) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Corrections to the "guitar chords" in the Beethoven piece above: Measure 7, beat 1: Should be "Dm" instead of "Am" Measure 10, beat 3: Should be "C" instead of "G" Measure 22, beat 3: Should be "G7" instead of "Bm" Measures are numbered by counting the two pick-up beats, "C A", as measure 1. T. |
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26 Mar 00 - 12:42 AM (#201583) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Okiemockbird, The reason you are having trouble is because you are thinking it rather than hearing it. Modifying it from the major scale will help you to hear it. Harmony is about codifying what a musician hears rather than creating mathematical formulae. Frank |
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26 Mar 00 - 12:56 AM (#201587) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Art, JJ Niles' dulcimer as I understand it came from a converted cello. Actually, Jean Ritchie was responsible for popularizing the dulcimer. JJ Niles instrument never caught on. Frank Warner may have known about the dulcimer but most of his songs were sung by him accapella. Jean's influence in promotion and popularization of the dulcimer is indisputable. Susan Reed might have used it along with the harp in some of her earlier performances as did Andrew Rowan Summers. But Jean brought it into the limelight. Have you heard Mountain Born? I think it's a classic. If I were to give a grammy for best folk album in a long while it would be to Jean for this one. Snuffy, I don't think White Cockade or Cambells are Coming qualify as the Phrygian mode. They would be Ionian (a gapped scale without the seventh note) or based on a standard major scale. Phyrigian Mode would be: 1, b2, b3,4, 5, b6, b7 8 Frank |
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26 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM (#201649) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST White Cockade and several others are circular majors that don't end on the keynote, and look like phrygian if you go by final note and key signature. |
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26 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM (#201698) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bruce O. The file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website now contains stressed note and mode codes for 6124 British Isles old popular and traditional tunes. These are for scales of from 4 to 11 notes and fall into 169 different modes. www.erols.com/olsonw
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26 Mar 00 - 03:35 PM (#201765) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Peter T. Sorcha, check your Mudcat e-mail. yours, Peter T. |
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26 Mar 00 - 06:36 PM (#201820) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Snuffy Frank, You could be right about the present modality of these tunes, but it appears they were Phrygian 200 years ago. I got the abcs off the web - the White Cockades from Bruce O's Scarce Songs and the Campbells from (I think) the Nottingham Database. The Campbells has no second (C), and the first Cockade has no fifth (F#), but all three have the seventh (A). What do you think? X: 1 T:T055- Hob or Nob [The Campbell's are coming] M:6/8 L:1/8 Q:120 S:Walsh's 'Caledonian Country Dances', IV, c 1744 K:B phrygian GBe dBG|B2BB2A|GBe dBG|ABAA2B|GBe dBG|B2dg2a|bag fed|B2B~B3:: g2g gab|d2dd2B|g2g gab|e2ee2f|gfe gab|d2dg2a|bag fed|B2B~B3:|] X:2 T:WHTCOKDA- The White Cockade S:Rutherford's 2nd selection of 200 CD's, c 1764 Q:1/4=120 L:1/4 M:C| K:B phrygian G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|Bd2e|dBc/B/A/G/|BA2G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/| ABg3/2a/|b/a/g/e/ d/e/g/e/|dBB::B/c/| dBgB|dB2B/c/|dBgB|aA2G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/| ABg3/2 a/|b/a/g/e/ d/e/g/e/|dBB:|] X:3 T:WHTCOKDB- The Ranting Highland Man S:Aird's Airs, I, c 1778 Q:1/4=120 L:1/4 M:C K:B phrygian G/A/|BBBA/G/|BBBg|BBBA/G/|A/G/A/B/AG/A/|BBc/B/A/G/| ABgf/g/|ag/f/gf/e/|dBB::B/c/|dBgB|ddde|dc/B/gf/g/| aAAG/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|ABgf/g/|ag/f/gf/e/|dBB:|] Wassail! V |
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26 Mar 00 - 07:16 PM (#201839) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: GUEST,Bruce O. Those were old ABCs which I hadn't changed to major circular. (Key and mode don't have to be correct for ABCs, they just have to give the right number of sharps or flats on the key signature.) The recent "Sources of Irish Traditional Music" give both phrygian and circular major scorings for the tunes above. The problem is that for circular major tunes that end on the 7th there are also two scorings, and the one that is not major circular is locrian. |
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11 Nov 11 - 08:59 PM (#3255336) Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again From: Jack Campin Much further one, maybe my modes tutorial ought to get a mention if this is to be a permathread: http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/ Covers a LOT more than has been mentioned here, with hundreds of real examples. Centred on Scottish music but goes a lot further than that. |