Song writing questions -why?

27 Mar 00 - 11:54 AM (#201995)
Subject: Song writing questions -why?
From: Homeless

This thread is a spinoff of another when I asked how people wrote songs. While a couple people just have things flow from them, most people have to work at a song in order to write it.

So my question now is... Why bother writing songs? Where is the payoff? Do you get something out of it? Do you get something from putting the effort into it?

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27 Mar 00 - 12:11 PM (#202002)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Molly Malone

I'm not even sure how to answer this one....

Haven't you ever worked on something that had any meaning to you? Haven't you finished a huge project and then sat back and looked at it and felt that feeling of accomplishment, of wow, of...well, whatever you want to call it....

That feeling. That's why.

Haven't you ever had something mean so much to you that you had to be involved in it? Haven't you ever cared so much about something that you couldn't just sit by?

That feeling. That's why.

Have you ever had children, or something you wanted to pass on to them? Haven't you ever held a child in your hands and saw the future in their eyes?

That feeling. That's why.

There's a song here.....

That feeling. That's why.

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27 Mar 00 - 12:45 PM (#202020)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Áine

Well said, Molly!

I write songs because it feels goods. It doesn't feel good when I don't. Simple.

-- Áine

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27 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM (#202027)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: jeffp

Having only written 2 tunes and one song, I can only speak to those instances. However, each one started when a small piece inserted itself into my mind and demanded to be dealt with right away. Now that I've gotten a taste of it, I'd like to do more of it. I carry a notebook now to write down snatches of verse that happen to come my way or ideas for subjects. We'll see if it helps. I hope it does.

jeffp

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27 Mar 00 - 12:58 PM (#202030)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: paddymac

The creative muse, in all its variations, strikes when it will.

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27 Mar 00 - 02:32 PM (#202091)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Lin in Kansas

To voice an opinion. To make a point (even if just to yourself). To relive an old memory or make a new one. To understand a bit better just what you're feeling at the time. To share a piece of yourself. Because it's fun to do.

Any, all, or none of the above. "Because it's there, and it's gotta come out"??

Good question; lotta reasons.

Lin

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27 Mar 00 - 02:33 PM (#202094)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: M. Ted (inactive)

I need to live for something--

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27 Mar 00 - 02:46 PM (#202102)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Ebbie

Besides, it's great fun to have others sing your song! It's uniquely yours, something you created... True, it may have come unbidden but you are the one who captured it. I don't always- probably not even usually- write autobiographical songs. Sometimes I take the POV of another and go for it or I take a subject and explore it. My life would be poorer if I didn't. Even if no one sang them.

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27 Mar 00 - 03:06 PM (#202117)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Amos

Ah sweet Molly Malone, what a fine reply.

Another thought (in spite ofthe notion that I couldn't add or detract from it)...

Songs are a special vocabulary, used for saying things that neither prose nor other poetic forms quite touch, a special voice peculiar to Middle Earth.

They capture the soul, and turn the mind, and thrill the body, when well done.

Who would not turn their hand to such an instrument?

"Let me write the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws", was (I've been told) an ancient Iroquois saying. It points to the power and beauty of songs as a way to touch hearts.

If you can touch hearts, how could you possibly refuse to do so, or not want to leap up each morning ready to begin?

A.

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27 Mar 00 - 03:21 PM (#202121)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Little Neophyte

Amos, I think that last statement of yours is the essence of doing anything. I just loved it.
If you can touch just one heart it is worth leaping out of bed every morning to do so.

Little Neo

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27 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM (#202122)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: M. Ted (inactive)

Just a note here, a lot of what we think of as simply poetry was originally sung--even in our own traditions of English and American verse--a lot of literary tradtions make no distinction between poetry and songs--

Even today, in for instance, classical and contemporarily written Urdu poetry is always sung, and usually to musical accompaniment--

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27 Mar 00 - 03:43 PM (#202131)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Amos

That brings up a notion, MTed -- suppose all poetry should be sung -- even our strange gray abstract intellectual sorts? I can hear Shakespeare's Sonnets marching along to good elizabethan chords, and I can imagine Dylan Thomas lines being backed up by a Welsh modal/minor scale, maybe on a dulcimer. But how about poems by, say, T.S. Eliott? What could they be sung to? Maybe the Phantom of the Opera? Walt Whitman would make some first rate talking blues in paces. Blank verse to Coltrane... the possibilities are endless. Short jazz riffs and blues slides for ee_cummings... and for Ginsberg, maybe something on a four-keyboard calliope organ?

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27 Mar 00 - 05:40 PM (#202229)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: GUEST,Jack

Its part of human nature to explore ones potential. Why does the pole vaulter hurl herself skyward? Why does the mathematician push his craft to greater elements of abstraction? Why does a child, having learned how to do one somersault, then try to do two, then three, then four?

If there is a unique characteristic to human activity it is this: Man revels in doing what he does well, and having done it well, rejoices in doing it better. (Jacob Bronowski--The Ascent of Man).

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27 Mar 00 - 05:49 PM (#202238)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: The Shambles

This is more of a reply to the question, why write new songs, rather than sing the great existing ones? But here goes.

We all need to live in a house of some description.

Some of us move in and leave it pretty much exactly the way we found it.

Some of us have to change it around a little before we move it

Some of us need to build our house exactly the way we want it, from scratch.

The end result may not be generally thought of as the very best architecture but it does suit our purpose.

After it is built, it is also nice when others would like to move in and leave it pretty much exactly as they found it....

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27 Mar 00 - 05:53 PM (#202240)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: MK

I've written many songs over the years (none of which would be appropriate for this forum.) Most of them are instrumental, and fall into either a funk, jazz, fusion, acid jazz or avante garde category. Some are better than others, as I learned more and improved as a musician and arranger, and, as I acquired better instruments and recording equipment.

As crass as this may sound, for the most part I consider the entire song writing process, recording of it, and the fruition of mastering the finished song, akin to a bowel movement.

It starts out as a great idea (ordering the meal), the idea gets developed into a song (consuming amd enjoying the meal), sweating out every last detail in the playing and recording process and over analyzing it to death (constipation), and finally being done with the whole thing (relief).

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27 Mar 00 - 06:20 PM (#202258)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Little Neophyte

I understand you analogy Michael K. but I would prefer to think of the entire song writing process akin to having an orgasm rather than a bowel movement.
I think it would attract more people that way.

Little Neo

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27 Mar 00 - 06:23 PM (#202261)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Áine

Dear Michael K.,

You're right, it is crass. And following your analogy, you would seem to be saying that all we songwriters end up producing is crap (to avoid the other word). Sorry, can't really 'go' for it, if you know what I mean.

I think I would much more prefer a gardening analogy -- you know, planting a seed and watching it grow, etc., to your idea of the songwriting process.

-- Áine

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27 Mar 00 - 06:30 PM (#202265)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Little Neophyte

Aine, I would not completely write off the analogy of a bowel movement. They are quite essential.
Have you ever experienced a few days go by without one? They can feel quite necessary after that. And for some song writers, I bet that is exactly how it feels.

Little Neo

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27 Mar 00 - 07:01 PM (#202279)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Getting very earthy isn't it? Follow Michael K's analogy and you wouldn't feel too keen on singing the song more than one time...

When you write a song, and feel it's a good one, you know that there is something new in the world, and it wouldn't ever have been there if you hadn't come along.

When someone asks you to sing a song, and you sing them one of yours which you've just written, you're sharing that new-thing-that-wouldn't-have-been-there-without-you with them.

And you sing it in a strange place, you know that you aren't singing the song that someone else sang just before you came in, or every week for the past year. (And if by any chance it came about that someone had just sang your song, or made a habit of singing it, that would be even better.)

And you can change it about as much as you want till it feels right without some purist coming up and saying that's not how it should be sung.(Once again, if that did happen, better still.)

And if you sing it without telling people you wrote it, it's better - then if they like it and say where did you get it, you can modestly tell them your wrote it. (If they don't like it you could always say it was Bob Dylan or someone..)

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27 Mar 00 - 07:31 PM (#202298)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Áine

Dear Michael K.,

No need to apologize, really. If the analogy works for you -- Great! It just, shall we say, 'comes out the wrong way' for me? *BG* I thought it was very descriptive and funny. You should hear what women say (if they were to be really honest) when they're describing childbirth! Your own analogy has nothing on what I've heard come out of the mouths of some very proper 'ladies'.

For each person who writes, whether it be a song, a poem, or prose of some kind, the experience is totally different. None of us are born with a set of instructions, and the same holds true for the way we express our own personal 'human condition'. That's the beauty in it, don't you think? That's what makes it so much fun, and so intensely amazing!

-- Áine

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27 Mar 00 - 09:42 PM (#202381)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: fulurum

ode

arthur o'shaughnessy

we are the music makers

and we are the dreamer of dreams

wandering by lone sea breakers

and sitting by desolate streams

world losers and world forsakers

on whom the pale moon gleams

yet we are the mover and shakers

of the world forever it seems.

with wonderful deathless ditties

we build up the worlds great cities

and out of a fabulous story

we fashion an empires glory.

one man with a dream at pleasure

shall go forth and conquer a crown

and three with a new songs measure

can trample an empire down.

we, in the ages lying

in the buried past ofthe earth

built nineveh with our sighing

and babel itself with our mirth

and o'erthrew them with prophesying

to the old of the new worlds worth

for each age is a dream that is dying

or one that is coming to birth.

thats why.

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27 Mar 00 - 09:42 PM (#202382)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Amos

Well I think a little differentiation is in order. A well-done song, now, that goes from person to person and gets repeated by others and handed on from human to human. Now yer can't say that about a well-done bowel movement, Michael, can you?

A

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27 Mar 00 - 09:58 PM (#202395)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Mbo

Thanks, Fulurum! I've loved Arthur's Ode for a long time now...it always makes me feel good to read it. It was going to be a lyric quote of the day, once I put music to it, of course!

--Mbo

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27 Mar 00 - 10:38 PM (#202406)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: ceitagh

My favorite song about song writing is "Song of the Candle " by Stan Rogers. Of course, it doesn't really explain why he wrote...except that it almost does. Lovely song.

ceit

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27 Mar 00 - 10:43 PM (#202410)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: catspaw49

Amos, I suppose that would depend on where the shit was left and if some folks came along and stepped in it.

Spaw

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27 Mar 00 - 11:21 PM (#202428)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Little Neophyte

Catspaw, have stepped in so much sh*t along the path that I can honestly say, from my experience, it has been left in a place that would guarantee being stepped in generation from generation.br>
Little Neo

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28 Mar 00 - 05:04 AM (#202520)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: KingBrilliant

For me, songwriting can be a way of tasting an idea or a story - it doesn't have to be a truth, just a flavour. Songs are a communication outside of conversation where you are free to present whatever takes your fancy without being asked. Its like daydreaming - very free and random. Sometimes it clarifies something for me, and sometimes is throws up a new idea or question. My favourites are the ones that emerge completely from the subconcious - they are postcards from the depths & its nice to stay in touch. Its a pleasure & that's the why of it.

Kris

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28 Mar 00 - 11:29 AM (#202640)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Amos

Fulurum, that was so well put! Thanks for reminding me of it. Well turned, mate!

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28 Mar 00 - 12:30 PM (#202665)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Bert

Lin in Kansas summed it up pretty well for me.

I write songs "Because I've got something to say" and a song is a fun way of saying something.
I don't usually get too serious or introspective about it.

Bert.

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28 Mar 00 - 04:00 PM (#202800)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Jim Krause

The honest, no-holds-barred, bare-faced truth is, the I have a large ego, think I have something to say, and that other folks will be interested enough in my thoughts to pay money to hear my songs. A bit overstated perhaps, but there is a grain of truth in it. Yes, I do get something out of it, some personal satisfaction. Also, I started writing songs because of the copyright laws concerning public performance of others' copyrighted material. Also, (and here's the ego popping out again) I heard some stuff on the radio that left me feeling that I could do better than that. I also heard some stuff that left me wondering if I could do that good, too. Last, it is just plain fun, in a personally challenging sort of way to see if I can organize my thoughts in a small structure, like a song lyric.

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28 Mar 00 - 05:09 PM (#202848)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Kim C

Applause. :)

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29 Mar 00 - 01:36 AM (#203088)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: The Shambles

Don't want no one else's bowel movements in my new house, thank you very much.

It was a pretty good anolgy though. Childbirth may have been better but 'us chaps' view of that process is somewhat different.

All this is good stuff though. I have enjoyed reading all of it and look forward to some more.

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29 Mar 00 - 10:16 AM (#203206)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Duffy Keith

Songs express and communicate thing, as do most art forms, that cannot be expressed any other way. They add beauty to the real world, and take the edge off of many unpleasant realities...Remember the words of the great Ludwig Beethoven, who said, that "any one who understands my music will not have to carry the same pain as those who do not"....DK

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29 Mar 00 - 10:27 AM (#203213)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Amos

Great quote, Duffy -- thanks.

A

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29 Mar 00 - 03:52 PM (#203422)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: fulurum

i can't remember who said it but they said, "music is the soul of the world embedded in sound."

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29 Mar 00 - 04:01 PM (#203427)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Froodo

I write songs because I want to. I don't have nothin to say that ain't been said before. I just get off on creating things.

I want to write more. I want to get better at writing. I want to write the best damn tune I can, make a million dollars and retire in some tropical beach community drinking cleverly named drinks and struming my gee-tar all day. Just me and my gal and my gee-tar, see. Ain't nothin' better'an that.

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30 Mar 00 - 10:40 AM (#203877)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: GUEST,Marion

This question reminds me of a quote I saw somewhere:

"Why do we make music?

We make music for the same reason that the birds sing, that the crickets fiddle, that the salmon leap upstream, and that the flowers bloom: because we want to have sex."

But seriously, I'd have to say that at least a little part of my motivation in songwriting is to impress my friends.

I guess my shallow side is really coming out this week...

Marion

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30 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM (#203955)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Jim Krause

Marion, Yeah, mine too. Although at my age I've pretty well given up the thought of making a million bucks and retiring to a tropical island with mah gal an' mah gee-tar sippin' unnamed drinks. So, I think I'll just keep on writing for reasons of self satisfaction and the basic human urge to create.

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30 Mar 00 - 12:23 PM (#203963)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Bert

Yep, Marion, you're spot on there! We just don't always want to admit it though.

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30 Mar 00 - 12:29 PM (#203967)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Froodo

Soddy,

I've given up that hope to. Great thing about doing stuff you love -- even if one ain't successful (at least as far as making some do re mi) one can still be happy.

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30 Mar 00 - 05:25 PM (#204167)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: Callie

Wow - thought this was going to be a technical thread. Everyone who has posted has written so poetically - it is obvious you would all write wonderful songs!

The issue of songwriting came up for me recently. A friend asked me to contribute one song to a CD project of lots of individuals performing a song of their choice. I've decided it would be cheating to sing someone else's song, so I've set myself the task of writing the definitive song of myself (with apologies to Walt!).

When performing, if you sing someone else's song - which you have already screened for good writing/goodmusic/likely to be appreciated by the listeners, there's really not much you can do to get it wrong (except sing off key etc!). The CHALLENGE is to sing something of your own, and maybe give even just one listener in the room a different perspective on life.

Having said that, my songwriting output in the past 10 years has been zilch, so of course I am relying on the rich and wonderful music that's already out there. But I know what I'd RATHER be singing.

Amos: I have seen one of Whitman's poems "The Great City" set to music. It's in four parts, with just chords written, so that it can be sung like a chant to the natural rhythm of speech. A worthy experiment, but it had us rolling around on the floor clutching our sides when we tried it!

--Callie

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30 Mar 00 - 07:11 PM (#204227)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: paddymac

Gee, how soon we have forgotten those "worst songs" threads. They certainly lend an element of credibility to the defecation metaphor. "It's A Small World" still tops my list in that area. On a more serious level, I believe that the function of songs has changed through time. In an earlier period, a major function of songs in "the great bardic tradition" was to preserve and convey the oral history of a people. The "entertainment value" was a part of it, but the "learning" aspect was probably more important. In our contemporary, mass-market world, the functions seem to have been reordered, with entertainment probably the primary function, and "teaching" (with the exception of children's songs) much reduced in importance.

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30 Mar 00 - 08:36 PM (#204262)
Subject: RE: Song writing questions -why?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Not so much teaching, but still a lot of preaching.

And that's not meant as a put down - there's nothing wrong with sharing your vision of how things are and how they could be better and might get worse. It's always been part of how we communicate with each other, and it's always been part of the traditions.

"If you don't know where you're going, it doesn't matter which way you go" - and "If you don't care what you're saying, it doesn't much matter how you say it."

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