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17 Apr 00 - 10:59 PM (#213438) Subject: wife of ushers well From: marty g have been listening to " THE WIFE OF USHERS WELL " on the john roberts & tony barrand tape " dark ships in the forest " and find myself at a loss as to what some of the words mean. what is the part about feathered by his holy hand all about. marty |
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18 Apr 00 - 12:07 AM (#213471) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Hotspur I think it is supposed to mean that the three sons coming back (even though they are dead and buried) is a miracle, just like a roasted rooster crowing is a miracle, both attributed to Christ. Actually, i think this verse is probably an interloper from a different ballad. In "King Pharim" (Pharoah), the King says that if there is truly a child born of the Holy Ghost, "this roasted cock that's in the dish shall crow full fences three. The cock soon feathered and thrustened well/ By the work of God's own hand/ Three times the roasted cock did crow/ In the dish where he did stand." |
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18 Apr 00 - 04:36 AM (#213533) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Joe Offer Hi, Marty - It's one I've wondered about, too. There's a bit about it at the Traditional Ballad Index (click). This is Child Ballad #79. A search for #79 in the Digital Traditon brings up three versions (click). -Joe Offer- |
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18 Apr 00 - 07:42 AM (#213556) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: marty g hey, thanks to joe and hotspur! good stuff!! but more questions now, what is the name of the song relating to ? and tell me more about this song king pharim. marty |
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18 Apr 00 - 10:39 AM (#213653) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Malcolm Douglas There is a version of KING PHARIM on the DT, here. Malcolm |
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18 Apr 00 - 11:12 AM (#213681) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Malcolm Douglas Do Roberts and Barrand name their source for The Wife Of Usher's Well? As Hotspur says, verses 8 and 9 don't belong there at all, and have clearly come from King Pharim (or its predecessor, The Carnal and the Crane); the second version that Joe points to -collected in New England in 1951, but virtually identical in text to that given in The Oxford Book of Ballads, itself taken from Sir Walter Scott's published version of 1833/4- has a more coherent narrative. The substitution (maybe the result of an accidental association of ideas on the part of the source-singer) unfortunately turns a tragic ballad into something closer to farce! I do hope that Roberts and Barrand didn't do it on purpose. Malcolm |
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18 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM (#213755) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Hotspur Unfortunately I don't have the complete liner notes from that album. It's noted as Child 79, but doesn't say which version.
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18 Apr 00 - 01:08 PM (#213771) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: KathWestra Why don't you send an e-mail to Sandy Paton, who published "Dark Ships". He could tell you what Roberts & Barrand say in the liner notes. E-mail address is |
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18 Apr 00 - 09:51 PM (#214073) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Sandy Paton Here's the note, taken from their web site, where the complete headnotes and texts to Dark Ships in the Forest are now available. The Wife of Usher's Well (Child 79)
Scotland would seem to be the birthplace of this ballad, though, in common with many other of the ballads ennobled by their inclusion in the Child canon, it has flourished better on this side of the Atlantic, particularly in the Appalachians. Brandon lists two English variants; ours was transcribed by Ralph Vaughan Williams from a phonograph recording of a Mrs. Loveridge of Dilwyn. Not only do the children return from the dead, but we have the extra supernatural element, more proper to the religious piece "The Carnal and the Crane," of the roasted cock crowing in the serving platter. |
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18 Apr 00 - 09:57 PM (#214081) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Sandy Paton Ooops! Meant to include this in the post above. Wife of Usher's Well. Hope this works. Sandy |
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18 Apr 00 - 11:03 PM (#214125) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: marty g very very helpful, thanks, but still the name of the song puzzels me what does it mean? marty |
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19 Apr 00 - 10:30 AM (#214280) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Malcolm Douglas Thankyou, Sandy! I've never actually heard any of their records (and wasn't even aware of your involvement), though of course I've noticed that their names turn up a lot in the DT; I should have thought to look for a website. Anyway, that clears up that question. Marty; the answer to "what does the title mean" may possibly be dealt with in Professor Child's notes on the ballad, but the nearest copy to me is a couple of miles away in the library. I can tell you that "Wife" was a term used of older -not necessarily married- women, and I would assume that Usher's Well was just a place-name; others may have more to add. Malcolm |
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20 Apr 00 - 08:43 AM (#214942) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: IanC I'd always thought the name of the song was a biblical reference (like Jacob's Well) but the only Usher I can find associated with The Bible is the Bishop Usher who, in 1396, calculated the age of the world by studying the genealogies of all the Jewish patriarchs down to Adam. I still think there's some sort of allusion here, but for the life of me I can't think - or remember - what.
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20 Apr 00 - 04:32 PM (#215179) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: marty g well you know edger allen poe had a work titled " fall or the house of usher " does any one have knowledge along those lines ? marty |
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20 Apr 00 - 08:56 PM (#215312) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Malcolm Douglas I'd be very surprised if Poe's story had anything to do with the ballad, but here is a link to The Fall of the House of Usher. Malcolm |
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21 Apr 00 - 12:26 AM (#215412) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Sandy Paton In the note I copied from John Roberts and Tony Barrand's web site and pasted in above, they state "Brandon lists two English variants..." I assume this is a typist's error, and actually they are referring to the Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads by Bertrand Bronson. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Sandy |
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21 Apr 00 - 04:14 PM (#215720) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Susan of DT Prof. Child doesn't say much about this. It was the title of the song in the book he got it from. (He "collected" from books, not people). I would not be surprised, but I certainly do not know for a fact, if the well was one of those enchanted or "holy" wells. Since she was clearly a wisewoman or witch (sent the children to learn gramery (sorcery)and conjured them back from death) being the guardian of an enchanted well would be in character. |
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21 Apr 00 - 04:29 PM (#215730) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Bruce O. Bronson lists two English variants, the second of which (Bronson's #3) was that transcribed by Vaughn Williams and published in Ella Mary Leather's 'The Folk-lore of Herefordshire', p. 198, 1912. |
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21 Apr 00 - 08:19 PM (#215836) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Sandy Paton Thanks, Bruce. I was too lazy to hike over to the other end of the house and count the English versions in Bronson, but you have confirmed my suspicion that "Brandon" should have read "Bronson" in the note above. Sandy (who really could use the exercise!) |
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23 Apr 00 - 06:16 PM (#216686) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Cap't Bob Welcome aboard Marty ~~ about time eh'. Very interesting thread. Cap't Bob |
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23 Apr 00 - 10:59 PM (#216808) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Sandy Paton Agreed, but we still don't know where Usher's Well is, do we? Sandy |
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25 Apr 00 - 07:49 AM (#217544) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: IanC Hi About "Gramery". You learn this at a Grammar School. It certainly ain't sorcery. Cheers! IanC |
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25 Apr 00 - 10:42 AM (#217616) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Uncle_DaveO According to my Random House Dictionary of the English Language, (slightly translated from the dictionary-type abbreviations):
Gramarye (n.) occult learning; magic. Also, gram'ary (From Middle English gramary, which was from Old French gramaire, literally grammar.)
So the kids were sent off to Hogwarts with Harry. Dave Oesterreich |
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28 Apr 00 - 10:08 PM (#219853) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: marty g i'm thinking that the bit about the holy wells ( susan of dt ) sounds good.it works for me anyway. and the point about wife not having to be a wife as we use the word ( malcom douglas ), thats good to. how usher fits into it, i dont see. the name my be important or not. might be an actual place or not. i still have a feeling that that name may have evoked a image in a different time in a place other than here i am ( michigan ). marty |
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23 Jul 04 - 04:54 AM (#1232006) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: The Walrus Apart from the Church/Theatrical references (both Bishop Usher and the show-to-seats versions), 'Ushing' was IIRC the technique of washing heavier metal ores (such as lead) from the general spoil, a little like panning but using continual agitation on a fine sieve. Perhaps 'Usher's Well' started as 'The ushers' Well' in a lead mining region. Just a quick two penn'orth. Walrus. |
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06 Sep 04 - 09:51 AM (#1265222) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Elaine Have a listen to Steeleye Span's version of this song on "All around my hat" album. |
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06 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM (#1265230) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: BanjoRay Hedy West did a superb Appalachian version on her Old Times And Hard Times LP, which by a strange coincidence I've just been listening to for the first time in many years. Ray |
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04 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM (#1371517) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Lighter The Oxford English Dictionary says "gramarye" first meant grammar or learning in general. The secondary meaning of necromancy though known in the Middle Ages, apparently fell out of use and, according to Oxford, was consciously "revived" by Sir Walter Scott in 1805. So "gramarye" in the song could mean either, but if the text originated in the 17th or 18th century (the usual case), the odds are that "grammar" is all that's intended - with an extra syllable for the meter and rhyme. Of course, one remains free to imagine whatever makes for a better story.... |
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03 May 20 - 07:13 PM (#4050209) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: RTim It has taken you 15 years to discover this..... |
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03 May 20 - 08:13 PM (#4050215) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Starship https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span/songs/thewifeofusherswell.html Mainly Norfolk is certainly worth checking out. It's a darned good site. |
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03 May 20 - 08:55 PM (#4050220) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Starship 'Sir Walter Scott was the first to publish this ballad, which came from an old woman who lived in Kirkhill, in West Lothian. The area is now part of Broxburn. There is no physical geography connected to Usher’s Well. Instead, it is a ballad location, such as Garland Town and Strawberry Castle, which cannot be mapped, and the ballad is perhaps all the better for it. “The Wife of Usher’s Well” is, in effect, a ghost story, with three sons returning to their mother, but not being quite as they appear.' That is from http://walterscott.eu/education/files/2013/02/Interpretative-Notes-to-The-Wife-of-Ushers-Well.pdf |
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04 May 20 - 02:18 AM (#4050236) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: The Sandman I think gramarye means something other than grammar, one theory often putforward is that it means witchcraft. |
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04 May 20 - 03:37 AM (#4050247) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Jim Carroll “The Wife of Usher’s Well” is, in effect, a ghost story," I think this beautiful ballad is a little more than that - for me it's a superb example of a whole genre of songs and tales of 'the unquiet dead', describing the effects of 'over-mourning' the dead It even made it to the silver screen, one of the bet examples (imo) being the gentle English 'Truely, Madly, Deeply' - vastly superior to the cack-handed and mawkish Hollywood blockbuster, 'Ghost', made around the same time Technically, the sons aren't 'ghosts', as their mother's over-mournng has not allowed them to die properly and pass to their rest They are not threatening, as ghosts are generally considered to be, not frightening in any way - they have returned to close their lives properly rather than having died away from their loved ones unseen Travellers told us how they kissed the foreheads of the corpses so they could be 'seen off' in peace If they met a funeral on the road they would turn and follow it for six steps to save 'the feller in the box' the bother of chasing after you to say goodbye' Twenty years ago I attended Clare fiddle player, Junior Crehan's very traditional wake - the mirrors and shiny surfaces in the room were all covered and the window was left wide open so, when the time came, the spirit could depart freely without 'bumping into things' THere was a 'correct war of doing things that had to be adhered to for the sake of both the departed and those left behind There is an equally beautiful 'prequel' to this ballad , 'The Clerk's Twa Sons of Owsenford' explaining how the boys died - well worth looking out for - it's occasionally claimed they are the same ballad broken in half Can't find it on UTube, but MacColl makes a fine job of it on 'Blood and Roses (vol 4) Jim Carroll |
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04 May 20 - 03:45 AM (#4050249) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: The Sandman thanks ,jim,very interesting |
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04 May 20 - 08:46 AM (#4050346) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Starship Thanks, Jim. MacColl who?? |
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04 May 20 - 09:14 AM (#4050360) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Reinhard Are there that many MacColls, Starship? Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger: Blood & Roses Volume 4 |
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04 May 20 - 09:19 AM (#4050364) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Jim Carroll Wasn't Calum, Neill or Catriona and Kirsty's sadly dead (ang choruses on an album with her once - lovely lady I meant to add another connection to this ballad - the 'Grateful Dead' story tradition (wasn't there a pop-group...!! :-) Jim |
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04 May 20 - 09:20 AM (#4050366) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Starship I was bugging Jim. It wasn't a serious question, Reinhard. (Deep and dark retaiiation for his remarks about Dylan, the Nobel winner, not the Welsh poet.) ;-) |
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04 May 20 - 10:14 AM (#4050383) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Jim Carroll "I was bugging Jim. It wasn't a serious question" Think I know you well enough to know that I was winding you up Jim |
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04 May 20 - 10:37 AM (#4050388) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: GUEST,Starship Jim, you remarked earlier that "the mirrors and shiny surfaces in the room were all covered". I found that interesting because it appears in other cultures also. When I was about 13 or 14 I went to a friend's house and the mirrors were covered. I asked why, and he informed me it was a customary in households that were 'sitting shiva'. I found out later that it was a common but not ubiquitous practice among peoples all over the world. Input like yours makes looking into this stuff one heck of a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. Best to you. |
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04 May 20 - 12:54 PM (#4050446) Subject: RE: wife of ushers well From: Jim Carroll And to you Starry (sure that's a cue for a song) Fascinating information yourself Clare (unior in Particular (the man on the bed) was a goldmine for such information It was he who told us that it was considered unlucky to play a bodhran indoors as it was a ritual instrument, though his twinkling sense of humour made mus suspect that that wasn't a fiddler fed up with Ireland's traditional death-watch beetle talking :-) One on the most fasinating trditions he described was 'the bohocks' - the STRAW BOYS who used to come to the wedding celebrations dressed in straw and dance with the bride Several people described this to us, but Junior took me aside in the jacks (pub toilet) one night and told me that was only half he story He said that, in the old days they would take the bride out of the room and ritually pretend to 'break her in' for the groom "Nobody else'll ever tell a stranger that in case it gets back to the priest" he added He was one lovely man At the wake, they laid him out on the bed with his fiddle resing on one arm and a packet of fags in the other hand On his 90th birthday Tom Munnelly told him "If you don't pack up the fags and booze you'll be dead before you reach 100" Tom died decades younger than Junior did Jim |