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31 May 00 - 03:11 PM (#236472) Subject: Ever write a song already written? From: Ebbie Talk about plagiarization! Awhile ago when leaving a music party, a friend slipped me a scrap of paper and mumbled, See what you can do with that. I was surprised at the phrases he had scribbled down because he doesn't seem the romantic type but happening to know that he was not an ultra-true husband I thought he'd been thinking, shall we say. So I set to work, using as many of the words as I could, taped it and gave it, along with the lyrics, to my friend. He never said a peep. Here's what I wrote: Twilight Waltz Twilight falls; evening shadows find There 'neath the stars, fair maiden divine The moon up on high seems to see her there In her eyes there's a light, shining ever so bright As she whispers this prayer: Oh, come back to me. Moon, send him to me. You bright glittering stars were there when we met Sweet love of my years, your children I'll bear Please come back to me, please listen to me: Forgive and forget. Every word reveals her sad, aching heart He's broken her faith and now they're apart Alone there she kneels, tells the stars above In his arms she belongs. In her prayer there's a song Of undying love. Well, you knowledgeable 'Catters out there are already aware of the song the original words came from! When I came across the lyrics (and I didn't even know there were any!) to Maiden's Prayer I was dumbfounded.(And all that work too, for naught!) Here are the original words as given on the 'Net (my friend hadn't given me all of them, and none of his phrases rhymed, or I might have caught on.) Twilight shadows fall, ev'ning shadows hide/There 'neath the stars, a maiden so fair, divine/The moon on high, seems to see her there/In her eyes was a light, shinin' ever so bright/As she whispered a silent prayer./Ev'ry word revealed an empty broken heart/Broken by fate that holds them so far apart/Lonely there she kneels and tells the stars above/In her arms he belongs, in her prayer is a song/An unending song of love. So now I have an unusable song and an extra tune! Has anyone else been an unwitting plagiarist? Ebbie |
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31 May 00 - 04:28 PM (#236502) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Bert Every time I write a song, I have this scary feeling that I may have subconsciously stolen it (either the words OR the tune) from somewhere. It makes me hesitant to sing a new song for the first time. But you know, songs don't get created out of a vacuum, they are part of our lives. They can 'only' come from what we know. If we didn't know anything, we couldn't write songs at all. Bert. |
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31 May 00 - 06:43 PM (#236557) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Lanfranc As Tom Lehrer once memorably intoned - "Plagiarise, even if people all evade your eyes.... But please .... call it research!" There are only so many words, and only twelve notes to play with. CF "Something in the way she moves" by James Taylor and "Something" by George Harrison inter alia. Every honest songwriter gets the same feeling from time to time, and Paul Simon and Bob Dylan must have felt it often in their early days! |
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31 May 00 - 06:56 PM (#236562) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Mbo "Steal from one person, and it's called plagiarism. Steal from a bunch of people, and it's called research!" --Wilson Mizner (I think) --Mbo |
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31 May 00 - 07:31 PM (#236585) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: GUEST,Ebbie But the situation here is plagiarism- it is the same song, whether I knew it or not. Believe me, I am familiar with the fear that a long-buried tune has popped ready-made into my mind. (Worse- just about the time I have the tune memorized I get to feeling just about sure that it is someone else's song- I think that's because it's beginning to sound familiar to my poor little brain. Oh, woe.) This is different. Ah, well, I'll chalk it up to experience- nothing's wasted, right? Thanks for the responses. Ebbie |
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31 May 00 - 09:10 PM (#236609) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Callie I once came up with what I thought was a brilliant tune and arranged it for a sax trio I was working with. The whole thing just rolled out so easily and I called it "Sea Blues". Wasn't until about a year later I was listening to a Charles Mingus recording and THERE WAS MY SONG!!! I was listening to a lot of Mingus at the time, and unwittingly reproduced "Noddin' Ya Head Blues" in my own composition. Bummer! Ebbie: at least you have an original tune now. All you need is new words ... |
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31 May 00 - 09:50 PM (#236624) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Peter T. Donovan made himself look like an idiot the day he met Bob Dylan, by singing a new song he had just written, and the song was virtually "Mr. Tambourine Man." It is a classic story (who knows if it is true), yours, Peter T. |
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31 May 00 - 10:06 PM (#236629) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Callie MOST of Donovan's songs sound like re-writes of other songs. Callie (ducking fruit missiles) |
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01 Jun 00 - 12:15 AM (#236699) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Bugsy I was going to write "The Times They Are A Changing", But Dylan beat me to it. But seriously folks, I leave that to the likes of George Harrison et al, (My Sweet Lord). Cheers Bugsy |
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01 Jun 00 - 01:52 AM (#236720) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Ebbie Right, Callie. But I don't have much call for somber waltzes! I'll tuck it away though. Ebbie |
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01 Jun 00 - 01:55 AM (#236721) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Ebbie BTW Callie- I loved your story! The spine-chilling stuff of nightmares... :~) |
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01 Jun 00 - 04:05 AM (#236732) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Callie The really funny thing is that the guys I were playing with were real jazz buffs, and they didn't pick up on it. You can fool some of the people ... |
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01 Jun 00 - 04:20 AM (#236735) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: The Shambles I think that it is far worse when you warily sing your new song for the first time and the listener tries to convince you that you have written an existing song.
This can be done in subtle (and sometimes innocent) ways, like saying. "have you heard _______ ____'s song called _________"?
Or. "that, reminds me of ________"
The time for saying these things, for the right reasons, is probably not when the writer is feeling the way Bert describes above but a little later when they a bit more confident. If you are saying them for the wrong reasons, of course, it is exactly the right time. |
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01 Jun 00 - 06:41 AM (#236749) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: McGrath of Harlow There's tunes, and there's a songs. I doubt if it's possible to make up a tune that isn't similar to some other tune. And if you could it'd sound horrible. (12 tone stuff and so forth, for example.)
Being similar doesn't mean being the same. It's the way someone will look like their parents. "He's got his father's nose" doesn't mean he stole it off him. Tunes belong to families as well as people
When you are putting a tune to a song, you want to have a tune that fits to the words, and fits to the the thought and sentiments and so forth. Whether it's original or not is very much a secondary consideration, all to do with money and that kind of rubbish.
Often if you're making a song, the words come easy, and you just write them down. It must sometimes come that people think they are writing a new song, and they are rewriting one that already exists.
I'm not sure it's ever happened to me. Here is one song which was so odd that I wondered whether it might have been a rewrite of one I'd heard or read somewhere - The Strange Conversation Maybe not as a sonmg, maybe as a poem or a story. If it rings a bell, let me know.
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01 Jun 00 - 06:51 AM (#236752) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Grab There's a recent Bryan Adams song which copies lines wholesale from Dire Straits' Romeo and Juliet. It was blindingly obvious to me, but a friend hadn't noticed it until I pointed it out. I'd guess it's like an optical illusion, or the Stormtrooper banging his head on the door in the original Star Wars - you can't see it at first, but once it's been pointed out, or once you've spotted it in a moment of clarity, suddenly you can't help seeing it all the time. Grab. |
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01 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM (#236801) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: jeffp For months I had a tune going around in my head, so consistently I had actually come up with a four-part arrangement for strings (still all in my head). Never did write it down because it only jumped in there at work and left before I got home. It went away about a month ago, but I didn't worry because I knew it would be back. Well, two days ago I put on a Zan McLeod CD and there it was! Zan had stolen my tune and titled it, "The Ash Grove." Don't I feel dumb for not recognizing it. If it ever comes back the same way, I might try to capture it anyway, because it might be a nice arrangement. And I'll know what to title it! jeffp |
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01 Jun 00 - 10:03 AM (#236810) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Vixen This is my worst nightmare...especially when I'm playing something for the first time to anyone other than Tim and that person says, "Wow! Who wrote that?" (Intending, no doubt, a positive response.) I get a very horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach, suddenly convinced that I actually heard it somewhere, and I somewhat shakily say, while looking at Tim for confirmation, "I think it's one of ours?" V |
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01 Jun 00 - 10:18 AM (#236818) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Kim C Ash Grove is public domain, if we're talking about the same Ash Grove. I wrote a cowboy song once and thought it pretty keen. Was in a craft store (of all places) and over the Muzak I heard the melody to my song! But since it was only one phrase and the rest was all different, I didn't worry about it much. I hear a lot of things on the radio today that are similar to each other. Remember --- I think I said this before --- that I'm Thinking Tonight of My Blue Eyes and the Great Speckled Bird are the same song.
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01 Jun 00 - 10:51 AM (#236844) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Ebbie LOL- jeffp, haven't we all done that! McGrath, at the least, that's a very interesting song. Tell me, what kind of tune did you give it, bleak or happy or trudging..? And what time? Which reminds me: Is there a way for 'Catters to buy cds/tapes from 'Catters? I've looked a bit at the Song Book but I don't see a venue for sales. Ebbie |
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01 Jun 00 - 11:09 AM (#236859) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: KT I once wrote a song which was inspired by the sudden death of a friend.....powerful lyrics, and the tune was all right too, until someone doomed it with "That melody reminds me of......" I went over it and over it phrase by phrase, note by note...No use....I couldn't sing it anymore....Just as well....It always brought everyone to tears........
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01 Jun 00 - 11:26 AM (#236871) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Bert Great song McGrath. I don't think the title does it justice though. When I was writing Bathing Angel I noticed that the tune I was using was 'The Eton Boat Song' so I just tweaked it a bit here and there and no one has ever noticed. Well at least no one has said anything. Bert. |
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01 Jun 00 - 12:45 PM (#236904) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: McGrath of Harlow Trying to be original is what's wrong with lots of things - it's why we get such grotesque ugly buildings, and such horrible "works of art" in galleries.
The Ministry of Funny Walks was a joke!! We don't in real life go round trying to think up some original and unique way of walking. So why should we have to do the same with something as natural as making songs and tunes. You don't get songbirds do that sort of thing.
Originality comes in of its own accord when it's called for. It's our job to give priority to the songs and the tunes, whether it's stuff we learned from other people, or stuff we (probably) made up for ourselves. Other things are interesting, but secondary.
There was some country musician who wrote a lot of good songs - someone told him that his songs were made up of bits of other songs stuck together, and he replied "That's how you make songs". It's not the only way, but it's a good way.
If you are making a shed you can get new timber, or you can use the bits from the shed that fell down and so forth. What matters is whether the new shed is a good shed, not what it is made out of, so long as it's good wodd. (And if you set out to make it look different from everybody else's shed, it won't be a good shed. And if it is a good shed, sooner or later after you've used it a bit, it will in fact probably look different from everybody else's shed.)
As for the song of mine I linked to, well it isn't all minor key, and I'd say it's a cheerful enough tune. Of course you can sing any song either happy or sad, but it's essentially a hopeful song, I think.
I'm trying to get round to sticking a few more songs on RealAudio with links from my website, and this is one I'll do that for. (It's on a tape I sent to Mudcat Radio, I think, and to a few other people on a "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" basis.)
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01 Jun 00 - 01:29 PM (#236914) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Jigger At the tender age of 8, I wrote a brilliant little ditty about the pirate Long John Silver. I remember the moment of inspiration very clearly - I was swimming in the pool, when all of the sudden, this tune popped into my head. I dashed into the house, dripping water everywhere, and sat at the piano, painstakingly plucking out notes (I hadn't started lessons yet, but my older sister had shown me a thing or two). I wrote the tune and lyrics out as best I could, in whatever notation made sense to an 8-year old with no formal training. I was beaming with pride and probably drove everyone in the house crazy with my nonstop renditions of "Long John Silver" (My mother never complained about the singing, or the fact that I had ruined her piano bench with my wet suit. I realize now that the woman had the patience of a saint). A year or two later, after some formal training, I realized that my "orignal" tune sounded suspiciously similar to Erie Canal (Mule named Sal). That crushed my short composition career. Thanks to McGrath's comments, now, I realize I was an underappreciated musical prodigy, shaping tunes to fit my poetry (including such immortal lines as "I'm Long John Silver and I'm brave and bold, I've got many treasures in my hold. I'll rob and kill and steal your gold, and I'll kill any man, young or old."). Alas, if only I had known then what I know now... Jigger |
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01 Jun 00 - 01:46 PM (#236925) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: little john cameron Ah can mind ane time at Rick Fieldings an' we were haein' a wee jam session an' ah said tae him"whit dae ye think o' this instrumental a wrote,nae words only the tune" Tae mah surprise he went intae convulsions laughin' It turns oot it wis the signiture tune o' the house band at the Horseshoe Tavern. "wildwood flower" Talk aboot a rid face.Pit mah songwritin' back ten years. Slainte, John. |
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01 Jun 00 - 01:47 PM (#236926) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: McGrath of Harlow You really think the Erie Canal was the first set of words that tune had been used with, Jigger? That sounds a great song of your eight-year-old self - find a good hypnotist and reconstruct it!
(If your teacher put you down because you'd reworked a folk tune, I reckon he or she deserved to be seriously smacked.) |
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01 Jun 00 - 02:30 PM (#236957) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Bert One advantage of being a folkie is that we are ALLOWED to recycle old tunes and songs. |
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01 Jun 00 - 04:35 PM (#237012) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Ebbie Little John- the tears of laughter running down my face are in empathy! KT, I have a friend who once did that. I've always wished she had tweaked it around until it became a new tune so that she would not have lost a great song. Could you do something of the sort? Ebbie |
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01 Jun 00 - 05:56 PM (#237055) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Brendy I wrote a song a few years back, put 'my own tune' to it, and sang it from time to time. All during this 'creative' time, I had a sneaking suspicion that this was all too familiar. Oddly enough, about three weeks ago (a year and a half since I last sang it), I got this uncontrollable urge to download and listen to a song that a woman I used to play music with, about ten years ago, used to sing: Mary Chapin Carpenter's "The more things change (the more they remain the same)". The words were mine, OK. It was 'bluesy' as opposed to 'country', but 99% of the tune was hers. Oh dear!! It is a common fear among 'composers', because there is not an infinite amount of permutations you can arrange the notes. B. |
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01 Jun 00 - 07:21 PM (#237101) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Rick Fielding Ahh, I remember it well, Little John. Plain fact of the matter is that you wrote "Wildwood Flower" BETTER than Maybelle Carter. She just got there first! Rick |
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01 Jun 00 - 07:55 PM (#237131) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Jeri I wrote Farewell to Reason, then a year later heard Crossing to Ireland. Scared me a bit - they aren't the same but they're similar. Honestly, I have fully formed tunes in my head sometimes, and I often don't know if it came from me or somewhere else. I've got one I recently wrote down, and I think I might have pinched it. The rhythm sounds too much like "Give Me Your Hand." If you can guess what song was rattling around in my head before I wrote the following, you win a... well, there's a lot of prestige involved in guessing correctly. Full title = "February March"
MIDI file: february.mid Timebase: 120 TimeSig: 4/4 24 8 This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
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01 Jun 00 - 11:07 PM (#237222) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Brendy Don't let it stop you writing, though. That song I wrote and found I didn't quite write, will go just as well with some other melody. |
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01 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM (#237229) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: sophocleese I wrote a short little tune to go with a poem from the 16th century. It bugged me and bugged me because, dammit! I had heard first line of that tune before. Finally nailed the sucker and realized it was Deep Purple's "Smoke on the Water". No problem then, changed a note, and it sounds different on the recorder anyway... Any time I write a song (very, very rarely) I am terrified that I plagiarized it from somewhere. I drive all of my friends (both of them) nuts asking "Do you recognize this tune?" I'm still scared that everything I've written was on a recording my parent's had when I was 3. |
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01 Jun 00 - 11:26 PM (#237240) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Brendy Just out of curiousity Soph, what note did you change. The natural in 'Water'? Could sound 16th Century-ish without the 'natural' all right B. |
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02 Jun 00 - 11:29 AM (#237406) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: McGrath of Harlow If you change a note or so in a tune that's been used alread, it might make it better, in which case it's a good thing to do.
It might make no difference, in which case, is it worth doing? (Alright,there might be money in it...)
Or it might make it worse, in which case you'd be better not doing it. |
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02 Jun 00 - 11:36 AM (#237411) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Mbo Has anyone really ever noticed that in "Greensleeves" the G is sharp, but in "What Child Is This" they are G naturals? --Mbo |
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02 Jun 00 - 12:31 PM (#237440) Subject: RE: Ever write a song already written? From: Jim Krause Yeah, All of 'em. |