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02 Jun 00 - 01:26 PM (#237472) Subject: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow If there's no word for something, can you think about it at all?
I don't mean physical objects so much, like guitars and cooking pots. I mean rather stuff like states of mind and emotions, and ideas.
Someone once told me that, so far as they had been able to find out, there's no word in any other language which means the same as "wistful" in English. And that kind of thing applies to all kinds of words in all languages, and it's one way in which every language encompasses a diffeent way of seeing the wolrds, which is one big reason why it matters when a language dies.
Anyway, the immediate reason I was thinking about this is, I was trying to think of a word which summed up the quality lurking somewhere in the middle of the word-cluster brash/vulgar/course, a word which would stand for this, but without being value-loaded - and another word for the opposite of this, also non-value-loaded. Refined doesn't do it, it's got all kinds of associations that get in the way.
I think those are words it would help if we had them. When we need a word, what normally happens is that an existng word is taken up and has its meaning twisted into shape,and the old meaning gets lost (and that can cause quite a lot of hertache, as with the word "gay", where it has left a significant gap in the language behind it).
And the other thing is that someone finds that there's a word in some other language that fits, and it is imported.
So has anybody got any suggestions for where we could find the missing words? Or other examples of missing words that we really need? |
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02 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM (#237505) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Jim the Bart The connection between words is really interesting. Somewhere I read someone's musings about whether gravity existed before Newton attached a name to it. I think we definitely have ideas without words; pictures, after all are worth about a 1,000, last thing I heard, and I find a lot of my thoughts really clear as a movie and horribly muddy put into words. Words can make it a lot easier to share ideas with others, fo sure. I like words that are made up of pieces of other words - to capture bits of the idea of each. Some of my bandmates and I coined a great one, "floungers", for people who waste years of their live floundering around in bars (lounges). When one of us walked into a place where the professional-barfly could comfortably hang out, all we had to do was say "the place was crawling with floungers" and the others knew exactly the kind of joint in question. In short, if you need a word MAKE IT UP! Add to the language. Of course, you might have to create a "McGrath to English Dictionary", too. . . PAX |
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02 Jun 00 - 03:06 PM (#237517) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Mrr I remember in The Mote In God's Eye, which has the coolest aliens in all of SciFidom, there was an individual alien trying to communicate something to some humans but lacking the vocabulary, he turned to his language experts and said I need a human word! because he needed to explain a concept that he knew would have a word in the human languages, just from knowing humans, but didn't have one in Motie. As a psycholinguist I found that fascinating. As a bilingual who grew up with speakers of both of my languages, I also find it difficult to speak in ONLY English or ONLY French because my mind kind of forges on ahead without worrying about where the vocabulary is going to come from. So I paint myself into corners all the time, having to start sentences completely over because the construction I was using led me to an impasse where the word I need next isn't available in the language I'm using, and the listener wouldn't understand me if I just substituted the other language. Needless to say, anyone who hangs out with me for any length of time tends to pick up a lot of French phrases and words, because I use them figuring anyone who's going to be in contact with me might as well get used to them. I can't make the efforts to stay monolingual in social situations or it eliminate relaxing. Anyone who'd like real scientific info on this can contact me, I did my dissertation on how bilinguals function in monolingual situations. |
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02 Jun 00 - 04:06 PM (#237536) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,me gehmugliekeit is wistful (too) in german |
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02 Jun 00 - 04:17 PM (#237545) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Blimey! |
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02 Jun 00 - 04:53 PM (#237563) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: paddymac Not sure they exactly fit kevin's suggested need, but I'm prone to use words like "earthy" and "genteel" it those particular sets or sequences. There must be a convergence in the force (my apologies to Master Yoda), for several of us were having a discussion on this general topic this morning - the ways in which language both shapes and reflects the world view of a culture. In particular, the discussion reached toward such differences and their importance in deciphering iconography as known from the archaeological record. Obtuse stuff, or so it might seem when first considered, but actually quite important to our ability to understand and learn from other cultures. We got off into a discussion of taxonomy (because stylized animal forms are important iconographic markers) and came to a working consensus that the classification of animals based on the Linnean model is a taxomony of differences, while the Muskogee Creek system is a taxonomy of commonalities. In the first case, the focus is on how things are different, while in the later it is on how they are alike. This discussion will no doubt continue for some time, and absolute answers will be few and far between. Its value, however, lies not in the solution of an insoluble/unsolvable problem, but in its discussion and exploration and the more tolerant understanding that will hopefully emerge. Heavy stuff for a Friday afternoon. Perhaps a cool pint will stimulate forther consideration. |
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02 Jun 00 - 05:23 PM (#237582) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Earthy and genteel fit into the word clusters involved - but...
The kind of thing I'm thinking about is the difference between Jerry Springer and Garrison Keeler. I wouldn't call Jerry Springer earthy, and I certainly wouldn't call Garrison Keeler genteel. (I'm using American examples here, because we get to see them, and Americans are less likely to see the examples I could use from English broadcasting.) Muskogee? Isn't that where that Okie came from who had a thing about leather boots and the college dean...?
I've just remembered that some of the ideas I've been thinking about were brought together in George Orwell's 1984, where the idea is that the main value of Newspeak is that it can get rid of certain words, and that means you can get rid of the disruptive concepts they express, because without the words it becomes impossible to think about them.
I'm just turning this about - new words could help us think about concepts that at present are out of our grasp. |
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02 Jun 00 - 09:00 PM (#237671) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Jeri Boorish vs polite? I don't know, you'll probably find value judgements in anything that's slightly accurate, because the words you posted indicate judgement. How do you describe a value-loaded set of words without using one? (Or maybe I'm just missing the whole point.) |
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02 Jun 00 - 09:23 PM (#237694) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Well take words referring to the sizre of a person, since that's been a thony topic on a couple of treads recently.
There are plenty words that inducate disdain, like gross and flabby, and a few words that indicate approval, like well-built and chubby, and for neutral I'd say fat, but that's moved over into the disdain camp in the eyes of many people. (And in some cultures I imagine the balance would be the other way, and there'd be lots of pro-words, and only a smattering of anti-words).
And you could make the same kind of analysis of the type of cultural differences I'm referring to. When two people look at, say the Jerry Springer show, and one likes it and the other loathes it, it's probably the same quality in it that they are recognising, but they put a different value on it. That'll be reflected in the language they use. What is missing it seems to me is a neutral term which they can both use.
It's a bit as though when we were talking about a particular type of food we had to choose between "that yucky stuff" and "that delicious stuff", instead of calling it "cheese", whether we liked it or hated it. It'd be hard discussing it. |
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02 Jun 00 - 10:33 PM (#237736) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie Words and concepts that are not value driven are also among the missing. I remember that when I learned English I couldn't believe there was no word in English for dying of thirst, although there was for lack of food. I even tried saying 'for thirsted'. (Come on, I was just a kid!) Ebbie |
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02 Jun 00 - 10:35 PM (#237738) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Here's another "convergence in the force". I was talking to some of my friends this morning and they were discussing a class they wanted to go to about the influence of Latin words on the English language which made me think of a book I have, which I relly love, called History in English Words by Arthur Owen (something) and the name which always springs to my mind when I try to think of his surname is "barfly" which was a lso a word mentioned in this thread. (It's Barfield, I just looked it up). You can read a little about him here: http://www.mtsu.edu/~dlavery/hooperobit.htm anyway, back to the point, the books is about what paddymac referred to - the relationship between language and culture, society etc. Barfield looks at the earliest words in the British Isles, then does a chapter on each new language introduced by invaders and settlers and the reflection of the way of life and way of thinking of each. E.g. Anglo-Saxon words still in use in modern English are axe, house, earth etc - words relating to a farming or subsistence life. Latin words relate to the organisational structure of a more complex society - republic, etc, the French words relate to the courtly life e.g. chivalry, etc. All very interesting stuff. By the way, McGrath-o-H, the Welsh word "hiraeth" is hard to describe - I don't speak Welsh but I have been told about this word, and one of its meanings is "longing" - the Welsh dictionary I have says "longing, nostalgia, grief, homesickness", so it's similar to wistful. Helen |
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03 Jun 00 - 08:55 AM (#237829) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) Oh, synchronicity. I have a missing word problem. It's in the cluster "hang-up, have a down on, bias against, unresolved childhood problem". As in "Why do English Ministers of Education always seem to have a __________ about teachers?" They always seem to have had a bad experience during their education, without having had a teacher who really enthused them and counteracted it. There seems to be a deep-seated need to make even giving things difficult and painful for the recipient. Any English teachers will know about the way we have to apply for new money, and it is the most depressing activity I have ever taken part in, being separated from others, not combined as in Ofsted. I exclude the Scots, whose government justs wants to give the money in return for less than a normal working day. And I know there is a word for this baggage they are lugging around with them, but I just cannot recall it. Penny |
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03 Jun 00 - 03:24 PM (#237892) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow "Prejudice against" - or maybe (slightly less overtly antagonistic) "preconception about" might fit the bill?
But what they are really clever at is taking a phrase that is descriptive and objective, and turning it into a stick to beat teachers (and children) with - "child-centred".
What GUEST,Mrr was saying about bilinguilism struck me as interesting. I'd like to hear examples of words which people taking up English as a second language find are suddenly missing when they need them. (Like Ebbie finding there's no standard word meaning "water starving") |
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03 Jun 00 - 04:46 PM (#237932) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt english word for dying of thirst -parched??? |
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03 Jun 00 - 05:03 PM (#237936) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Amergin I always thought dehydration meant "water starving". |
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03 Jun 00 - 05:31 PM (#237944) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy There is no French equivalent of "eavesdrop" - you have to explain it. |
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03 Jun 00 - 05:38 PM (#237947) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow And there's "trifle" in the culinary sense. |
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03 Jun 00 - 08:22 PM (#237996) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST Jerry Springer: trash magnet. Garrison Keillor: bland ice-cream. Henry Miller's stated goal as a writer was to be able to express any thought completely and clearly. A perusal of his body of work, perhaps excluding Crazy Cock, indicates he succeeded. |
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03 Jun 00 - 09:16 PM (#238013) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen In the discussion with my friends yesterday morning one of them said something is her "forte" (stength/strong point) and then she said, what is the opposite of that. Is there a word, maybe also from Italian which is used to represent weak point? Also parched and dehydrated don't mean *dying* of thirst, they just mean thirsty, so there probably isn't an equivalent of starving (implying, dying of hunger)in English. Ebbie, what is your original language and what is the word in that language for dying of thirst? Helen |
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03 Jun 00 - 09:36 PM (#238019) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul I don't speak Italian, but I checked this out on Babel Fish. It translates "forte" to "strongly." It translates "weakly" to "debolmente" and "weakness" to "debolezza." Also, it translates "fortezza" to "fortress" "fortemente" to "strongly" and "debole" to "weak person." So, it appears that "debolezza" is the noun in question. Perhaps (probably) we have an Italian-speaking Mudcatter who can give a more definitive answer. PA |
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03 Jun 00 - 10:31 PM (#238028) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg me and helen (sounds good) - I don't know welsh but my native tongue is german and from helen's description I think there is a word for 'hiraeth' in that language: 'Sehnsucht'. But this has very few to do with 'Gemuetlichkeit'. The latter describes a situation or a state of mind where one feels calm, at home, warm, among friends, all bad things being kind of outside. The word contains satisfaction. 'Sehnsucht' is a state of mind (not a situation) where one doesn't feel satisfied at all although his overall situation is quite ok. That means, you won't feel 'Sehnsucht' (hiraeth?) e.g. when bullets are whistling by your head. To do so you first need a situation of peace, contemplation, and then you can begin to grieve for things you once knew but are lost or also for things you dont't know but you are longing to experience. 'Sehnsucht' hurts, 'Gemuetlichkeit' caresses, heals. So - can anybody eyplain to me what 'wistful' actually is? (One of my teachers once said "If you make someone explain something you will force him to understand it" - but I really don't know what 'wistful' means.) Joerg |
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03 Jun 00 - 10:44 PM (#238032) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul The entry for wistful in Dictionary.com is pretty good: 1. Full of wishful yearning. Here are entries for pensive and melancholy. PA |
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04 Jun 00 - 03:23 AM (#238044) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie Helen, my first language was a dialect of German- the word for dying of thirst would be something like 'verdurstern'- I know I don't have that spelled correctly! The root is durstig. (That looks really odd in English. Besides it needs an umlaut.) Ebbie |
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04 Jun 00 - 10:36 AM (#238078) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Amos Miniisters have a neurosis about teachers? I think Jerry Springer is shallow, trite, supercilious, meretricious, vulgar, brassy, crude and not, as the Spanish say muy educato which means refined through learning. Garrison is simply humane, compassionate, "inclusive". Maybe the contrast between them is functional -- one seeks discord and the other reaches for insight into our common affinities. A |
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04 Jun 00 - 11:12 AM (#238087) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Thank you, PA - with that I think that 'sehnsuechtig' (the adjective/adverb related to the noun 'Sehnsucht') is a quite good german translation for 'wistful'. But again - 'gemuetlich' (adjective/adverb while 'Gemuetlichkeit' is the noun) is something different. Maybe I should add that it does not include 'pensive'. On the other hand it sometimes includes 'not too fast' and also 'relaxed'. I once was told that this is a concept unknown to english speaking people. Is it, really? Joerg |
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04 Jun 00 - 12:05 PM (#238098) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo Joerg, wasn't "Sehnsucht" the album by Rammstein? --Mbo (descended from a long line of German coalminers)
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04 Jun 00 - 12:33 PM (#238102) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Trust Mbo to get it right back to music! Reminds me of "connections" (that fascinating Burke series). Also reminds me of a joke that has to be told with a brogue, and which I don't remember any of except for the old Irishman saying Oh, dinna worry about it, I come from a long line of dead men. |
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04 Jun 00 - 12:46 PM (#238109) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow 'Gemuetlichkeit' - a sort of "mellow" feeling? |
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04 Jun 00 - 12:55 PM (#238112) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo I always understood it to be a feeling of easy comfort. --Mbo |
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04 Jun 00 - 01:02 PM (#238116) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul Babel Fish translates "gemuetlichkeit" to "cosiness." Is this accurate, Joerg? Here's the Dictionary.com entry for "cosiness" (also spelled "coziness"). From your description, it seems that "mellow" might be more accurate. Maybe mellow cosiness? PA |
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04 Jun 00 - 01:05 PM (#238120) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy To anyone wanting to read more on psycholinguistic theories of how/if words shape thought or are shaped thereby, a good place to start is Mrr's First Blicky!. (Let's see if it works!) Or read anything in either anthropology, linguistics, or psychology about various incarnations of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and counterarguments. Whorf was an insurance claims guy who noticed that things labelled inflammable were accidentally set on fire a lot more often than things labelled flammable, and that if you called something that used to contain gasoline empty instead of used people got hurt with the expoding leftover fumes a lot more often. Sapir is the anthropologist who got interested in studying these phenomena. It's pretty cool. |
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04 Jun 00 - 01:12 PM (#238121) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Well, it looked pretty, but it didn't work. The Url was http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/short/whorf.html/ but when I tried to go there, about 5 mn after finding it in the first place (or however long it took me to look up the blicky syntax in that oh-so-helpful html thread), I got 404'd so pooh. Am abandoning efforts before frustration sets in, I have a long single-parenting nonschool day ahead and can't afford it... |
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04 Jun 00 - 03:15 PM (#238159) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Penny S. (still elsewhere!) Thanks - I can't believe I'd missed prejudice, but something is still niggling that there is a stronger word. And it certainly is stronger than a neurosis. Have a look at what we have to complete at this site. http://www.dfee.gov.uk/teachingreforms/threshold/assessment/intro.htm sorry, I really don't have time to do a blicky, as I should really be completing number five. Version for Blunkett I inspire trust and confidence by offering people the opportunity to progress to a higher salary scale, and ensuring that it is seen as a real achievement to get it. I build team commitment by uniting teachers in their fear and loathing of the DfEE, and me. I engage and motivate teachers by ordering them to be engaged and motivated, and continuing to criticise. I apply analytical thinking by identifying the mood of teachers and attempting to increase it. I take positive steps to improve the quality of teachers' lives by giving them an extra burdensome task to complete concurrently with reports and national tests. Sorry for spilling all this, but most of those I know who could apply are busy deciding not to. And I am at a loss for words. Penny |
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04 Jun 00 - 08:13 PM (#238226) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow You aren't at a loss for words, Penny. There's a thread on the Mudcat now called "Improper Language" which is full of the right words for that shower.
Anyone who felt happy to be dealing with forms like that would be unfit to be a teacher.
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04 Jun 00 - 08:59 PM (#238245) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Penny, I've got a boss just like you described. I've stopped trying to tie myself in knots to please him and I'm a whole lot happier now. It's his problem/attitude and not mine and that makes me feel happier & healthier than he is. Helen |
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04 Jun 00 - 09:03 PM (#238246) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Margaret V Penny, perhaps the concept of "having a chip on one's shoulder" is useful regarding the Ministers. When a person has a chip on his or her shoulder, he or she will treat others with defensive hostility, making assumptions about their intentions because of previous experience or having been taught those assumptions. (Wow, that was poorly stated; Henry Miller would not have been impressed! Maybe someone else can have a crack at defining the phrase. . . ) I was also thinking about a colloquial term that is current here in the northeastern part of the U.S. (I don't have a TV so I guess I can't comment on the rest of the U.S.): "issues." "The girl's got ISSUES." When saying a sentence like that, you have to put a big emphasis on the word ISSUES. Issues in this usage doesn't mean "topics," it means stuff you should work out with a therapist! By implication the stuff is at the surface enough so that it's affecting one's behavior in an obvious way (obvious enough that people talking about you are going to say "she's got ISSUES."). Words, words, words. . . Margaret |
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04 Jun 00 - 11:05 PM (#238284) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Mbo (1st) - sorry for having to disappoint you: I'm not that interested in german music and I really don't know who Rammstein is (german musician?). One of many, many reasons for this lack of interest is that words like 'Sehnsucht' were used over and over in too many german music productions of poor quality in the past. When I think of 'Sehnsucht' I am first reminded to melodies stolen from russian folk songs. Things like these are BORING and therefore I have a real prejudice e.g. to albums with titles containing 'Sehnsucht' - I would never buy one. Things like these were also the reason for me to escape first to country and then to folk music (regardless of the language). To be fair I should also say that german music has in some way recovered from trash like this but it is still suffering from the language which is not that suitable for song lyrics. PA - in german there is a word to answer your question: 'Jein' (in the middle between 'Ja' and 'Nein' - yes and no). 'Mellow', 'cosy' and 'snug' cover parts of what is meant by 'gemuetlich' but don't cover others and 'gemuetlich' does not cover all the meanings of these words. I think that I should simply comment what I found following your links: A state of warm comfort - yes. Comfortably sheltered - yes. Closely secured and well built; compact: a snug little sailboat - in some way, it may shelter you comfortably as well as go in an easy, unhurried way (see below). Close-fitting: a snug jacket - no. Nautical. Seaworthy. - Not at all. Offering freedom from financial worry: a snug living - also in some way. Safe; secure: a snug hideout - maybe, but safe does not yet mean comfortable or warm. Soft, sweet, juicy, and full-flavored because of ripeness: a mellow fruit - no. Suggesting softness or sweetness: The mellow air brought in the feel of imminent autumn (Thomas Hardy); Rich and soft in quality: a mellow sound; a mellow wine - yes, but air, sounds and wine can't be 'gemuetlich' - only situations, places, states of mind, ways to do things, people. Having the gentleness, wisdom, or tolerance often characteristic of maturity - yes, also people, but being gentle, wise, tolerant and old does not yet mean that someone is also 'gemuetlich', especially... Relaxed and unhurried; easygoing: a mellow friend; a mellow conversation - that's quite good. Slightly and pleasantly intoxicated. Pleasantly high from a drug, especially from smoking marijuana - no, but this might help to understand what is meant. Moist, rich, soft, and loamy. Used of soil. - No. To mellow out: To become genial and pleasant; relax: 'The cowboy mellowed out when they read him a sweet letter from his wife' (Bobbie Ann Mason). - No. The situation could have become 'gemuetlich' either with his wife or with 'them' but not when 'they' read him a letter from her. Mbo (2nd) - Maybe you see, that 'easy comfort' is not so bad. Friends, thank you for your interest in things I am interested in. To me it seems that everybody who knows more than one language should also know that there is more than one way to map things, experiences, feelings etc into words. But knowing more than one person who do know more than one language and who have the same native tongue as I and being misunderstood by them in a way that would take me too long to describe... I am really enchanted by the way people are sometimes trying to understand each other here. Also very interesting that they actually talk to each other because of their common interest in music.
Joerg |
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04 Jun 00 - 11:11 PM (#238286) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Uhm - I'll forgive you if you read the above two messages only once - sorry. Joerg |
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04 Jun 00 - 11:26 PM (#238290) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo Rammstein is a German heavy metal band, big song in America was "Du Hast"....sorry for bringing it up.... --Mbo |
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05 Jun 00 - 06:02 AM (#238336) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg No need to apologize, Mbo, I'm always interested in what german music is known in America - especially when I don't know it myself. Joerg |
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05 Jun 00 - 06:30 AM (#238339) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow "the language which is not that suitable for song lyrics" - Oh I don't know. There was a bloke called Schubert who managed a few quite handy songs wasn't there? |
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05 Jun 00 - 12:58 PM (#238439) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Grab If a word in one language doesn't exist in another, it soon gets borrowed. English has loads of French words and phrases ("camoflage", "joie de vivre", "esprit de corps") which have come in wholesale. Equally, French has acquired "le weekend", "le football" and so on. Or German - anyone say "Gesundheit" when you sneeze? Or experience "Schadenfreude"? Grab. |
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05 Jun 00 - 01:18 PM (#238447) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow We say "Bless you" when people sneeze over here. Sneeze loudly in a shop and some total stranger will probably mutter it. Sometimes "God bless". Do Americans say that too? Or is it always "Gesundheit"?
The thing is, you can only acquire things when you know they are there. I'm aware of all the words we've imported into the language. But I'm longing for the words that we need that are out there waiting to be imported or coined, and we don't know we need them. Most especially the ones for abstract qualities.
And it's not only the meaning. Why, there's probably a word out there that rhymes with "orange"... |
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05 Jun 00 - 01:54 PM (#238470) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Petr Abilene; the pleasing coolness on the reverse side of a pillow. one interesting word is the Japanese Ma which is often neutral comment on something someone has just spoken without agreeing or disagreeing kind of like the english Indeed. We dont seem to have an equivalent for that. Petr. |
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05 Jun 00 - 02:27 PM (#238482) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ringer Fascinating thread, McGrath. I can't, myself, conceive of a value-free word meaning brash/vulgar/coarse, but that may be, as you suggest, because there's no such English word. However... Whether or not there can be thoughts without the words is interesting, too. When I consider my thoughts (which is difficult, because I can't think and think about my thinking at the same time, but just occasionally I catch the end of a thought train and realise I have been thinking in words) I find I use words. In my work, I spend a lot of time thinking about applying computers to engineering systems. Sometimes if I'm puzzling about a problem at work, away from work - eg listening to music while driving - an answer pops into my head without words. If the problem is large I need to go to words (and pencil & paper, usually) to check its correcness and completeness, but the answer is in my head, and I know it arrived without words. So I'm led to the conclusion that I have two different kinds of thinking. Conscious (words) and unconscious (no words)? Don't know. Also interested to see the post from Helen, above, re Owen Barfield. When I have time, I'll check the link, but wasn't he a big chum of CS Lewis, whom I greatly admire? (Not sure I can mention with approbation an Ulster of Protestant extraction in a thread started by MofH without getting into trouble **BG**) |
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05 Jun 00 - 04:27 PM (#238513) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow "value-free word meaning brash/vulgar/coarse" -well all those words can be used in a positive sense - you might say that something is "brash/vulgar/coarse but..." and go on to indicate that you see it as being a welcome contrast to something else which is too far the other way. Or you might talk about someone as having a "refreshing vugarity" - say the late Oliver Reed.
So there is something there which can be seen as negative or positive - a common factor shared by things that are felt as being fundemntally useless and as fundamentally valuable. But the words we use seem to prejudge this, sop that we need to add "buts" and so forth to clarify the position.
To use a musical anaology, if as if the same notes were being played by two totally different instruments, say a harp and a hurdy-gurdy, but we didn't have the words to refer to the notes as such, but could only talk about the tone of the instrument.
And C.S Lewis was certainly no kind of bigot, or he'd never have been such friends with Tolkien. (In any case Ulster Protestants are a fine set of people. If many of them currently believe that they have more in common with the English than with their fellow Irish, that is really a very minor idiosyncracy.) |
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05 Jun 00 - 04:53 PM (#238520) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Russ Depends on what you mean by "word", "something", and "think about". No kidding. A simple question which has generated a variety of VERY complex answers. A complete (as opposed to flip) answer requires AT LEAST a theory of language ("word"), a metaphysics ("thing"), and a psychology ("think about"). Interestingly different answers provided by everybody from Aristotle to Wittgenstein. |
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05 Jun 00 - 05:38 PM (#238534) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST Oh my, what a fine idea. A word for childish, immature, attention seeker. What would that be? Dweebo, of course. |
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05 Jun 00 - 06:39 PM (#238553) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST Why can one be non-chalant but not be chalant? Rich |
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05 Jun 00 - 08:47 PM (#238597) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Why do we call people "uncouth" but rarely call someone "couth"? Bald Eagle, The link about Owen Barfield is just an obituary page but it does explain a little of the friendship/word-sparring partnership between C.S. Lewis & Barfield. It also mentions a link to Tolkien, and I can see the influence, or at least the similar trains of thought between Barfield & Tolkien because of the names for people & places which Tolkien used in Lord of the Rings - there is a definite attempt to attribute an ambience to names which matched the culture or society of the owners of the languages, in my humble opinion. In fact I once requested to do a paper on this in my English degree, but the lecturer blocked the idea, although he saw what I was getting at later when I discussed it in a seminar session. Helen |
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05 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM (#238598) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo "Disgruntled" means miffed, but "gruntled" means happy. Good call on the Tolkien stuff, Helen. I'm big into Tolkien scholarship myself. I would have like to have read that paper. PM me if you ever wanna talk about him. --Mbo |
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05 Jun 00 - 09:24 PM (#238618) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Here's a link to a website about Tolkien Linguistic Resources. If you haven't found it already, you should have a good time delving around here, Mbo.
In a sense The Lord of the Rings came into being because Tolkien needed to have a home for the languages he came up with. And behind that was a desire to be able to say things you can't say in other languages, which is what this thread has been all about really.
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05 Jun 00 - 11:29 PM (#238704) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Ow, this discussion is going to become as complicated as things really are - thank you again. McGrath - It's true, Schubert also composed real songs, but they suffer from an effect I even notice in what is called folk music: There are REAL folk songs (e.g. Barbry Allen) and there are songs with lyrics written by educated, professional writers (e.g. Once In A Stilly Night). Real folk songs use everyday language so if they want to tell something to you - why not believe it. Lyrics written by professional poets are kind of artifical, perfumed - they might have quite haunting topics but the language itself keeps me from believing the lyrics to be honest. In german this effect is extreme. German is a very complex language, therefore very rich, but it is also very inefficient. Compared to english you can do much more with the language itself but it also takes you much more time to tell the same things. So if a poet is to put german lyrics to a song he must (? - at least he is tempted to) utilize the whole richness of the language in order to tell things as fast as the music goes - and that is not everyday language any more. Schubert's song 'Die Forelle' (that's a trout) has a charming melody and the story is funny but the words seem to come from someone who wants to appear gay without knowing the difference between bees and flowers. Poor Schubert! Grab, McGrath - In german we mainly say 'Gesundheit'. Do the Americans say so, too? Also thank you for 'Bless you' - don't think we are taught things like these at school. And, McGrath, you are right - if we only knew (i.e. understood) the concepts other languages really do have words for we all would be a whole lot more clever. AND YES - there ARE practical applications for that. Bald Eagle - Of course there are thoughts without words. In the beginning there were thoughts. Words, language is just a tool to tell them to others and often enough it proves to be insufficient. Having more than one of these tools can be very... (now I don't know a word for it). You know, when I'm sometimes trying to explain myself to others I use to say "I am very sensitive to what the americans call 'vibrations'" because there is no word for that (i.e. things like 'Gemuetlichkeit' without meaning any special of them) in german. I guess that about 20% of the brainwork I do is understanding things and the rest is finding words for that. Do not confuse this difference with that between conscious and unconscious: Unconscious are things that not even cause thoughts but peculiar dreams. And never think there are only things you know words for - there are many, many more. Russ - uh - your message is written in a kind of language I do not refer to when I refer to languages. What I am thinking of is some vocabulary like language - language; word - word; metaphysics - metaphysics; thing - thing; psychology - psychology; 'think about' - 'think about'. Please - things are complicated enough. If there is a word for something simply use it - do not introduce a second one. If Aristotle or Wittgenstein would have thought of that (they were thinkers, weren't they?) they would have been much easier to understand and we all might know their thoughts. I know that sometimes there is a need for abstraction, but this is MUCH too much of it, sorry. Helen - If you tell me (in your own words) what 'uncouth' is I will in return try to tell you the meaning of 'unwirsch'. Joerg |
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05 Jun 00 - 11:40 PM (#238708) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: catspaw49 Tell ya' what Joerg....Run a Forum Search on "catspaw49" and read some of my posts. About 4 out of every 5 are uncouth. Spawe |
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06 Jun 00 - 04:16 AM (#238828) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Llanfair I am interested in the concept of abstract thought, without the necessity of communicating it in words. I could never put half of what I think into words, as a lot of it is in shapes and colours and forms that dont fit into language. Possibly this is a gender or a right-brain dominant thing. Or am I "drifting" badly? Incidentally, the word "hiraeth" is predominantly homesickness, with wistfulness and longing as secondary feelings. Hwyl, Bron. |
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06 Jun 00 - 04:45 AM (#238836) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Fiddlin' Big Al Rent the Seven Samurai in Japanese without subtitles. Turn up the volume. Listen to the language as music and read the "body language" and faces. Language describes an emotional reality that we may all share outside of language. This is what music sans lyrics and language as music communicates. Otherwise hu ir potrj. Immunication ir compossible. |
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06 Jun 00 - 05:47 AM (#238846) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ringer Yeah, Spaw, but on that basis, he might think that "uncouth" means "mis-spelled". |
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06 Jun 00 - 09:08 AM (#238896) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Grab I was aiming at the Americans with 'gesundheit' - as McGrath says, we all say 'bless you' in England. Difference is probably the quantity of German Jews who emigrated to the US. Re German, our teacher at school told us a language-related joke (which you need to know German to get): There's 3 groups in a bar, the English, the French and the Germans. The English are telling jokes, and everyone's laughing. The French are telling jokes, and everyone's laughing. And the Germans are telling jokes, but no-one's laughing, because they haven't got to the verb yet. And English is still acquiring new words - there's additions to the Oxford English Dictionary each year. One recent addition was 'qi', since the English word 'spirit' doesn't quite cover the concept. This was instantly seized on by a flurry of crazed Scrabble players, desperate to get rid of their Q's! :-) Anyone read Douglas Adams' "Meaning of Liff"? My favourite is 'Thrupp', meaning 'to place a ruler on a desk and make it go bdbdbdbbdbdbdrrrdrrrrrr'. Grab. |
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06 Jun 00 - 09:33 AM (#238899) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Russ to GUEST,Joerg Thanks for the feedback. My response was intended to address only the original question, "If there's no word for something, can you think about it at all?" It wasn't intended to address the discussion of "wistful" and "the word-cluster brash/vulgar/course" that followed. I assumed that if "McGrath of Harlow" wanted an answer to the original question at all, s/he was hoping for a simple answer. Even though I agree that "things are complicated enough," my only point was that history indicates that an adequate answer to the "simple" question cannot possibly be simple no matter how hard we wish it so. |
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06 Jun 00 - 09:53 AM (#238906) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Mrr Joerg, you say "To me it seems that everybody who knows more than one language should also know that there is more than one way to map things, experiences, feelings etc into words." in a post a while back. I cannot agree more. In fact, to me it seems that everybody who knows more than one language DOES know that there is more than one way to map things (etc) - it is those who speak only one who need this demonstrated. I also find that if you speak more than one language AS A NATIVE SPEAKER, rather than as someone who has learned a language (even very very well) in school, you run into the idea that there is no such thing as a true "translation equivalent" - to me, for instance, a "chien" is a small dog, and a "dog" is a large chien. But DOG and CHIEN are translations of each other in any dictionary. That is why in places where the same two languages are known by everybody, and there is no POLOTICAL pressure against/for one or the other, speakers develop a language incorporating both - donc, Spanglish. However, with the added political pressures, you don't have Catalish or Queblais. Anyone want to discuss the creolization of English by the Norman conquest of the Saxons? |
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06 Jun 00 - 12:53 PM (#238968) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Penny S (elsewhere as usual) Thanks for the contributions - issue's getting close to it. Literacy hour today had the words 'wilful' and 'headstrong' and I was delighted to find that the first had a number of positive synonyms in my dictionary, since it was used in the text, as often of the young, of the quality of resisting the rightful demands of authority. Penny |
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06 Jun 00 - 12:59 PM (#238971) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow When you use a word like "dog" you've got in the back of your minds the verb, to dog, and all the proverbs and prases with dog in them; "chien" has a whole bunch of different associations accompanying it.
Even within what sounds like the same language the same kind of thing occurs - look at the gun threads on the Mudcat, clearly the word "gun" has different links and associations in different places.
I wonder, if we didn't know there was more than one language, would we be able to imagine that it was possible to have more than one language? Think how the notion that sign language isn't just a set of clunsy gestures, but a real language with the complexities of spoken language, comes as a genuine shock to most of us when we come across it.
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06 Jun 00 - 01:55 PM (#238994) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,me running commentary: 1. in those areas where gender issues are not specifically biological, they are purely sociological (i.e. a taught/learned set of responses) 2. language is a simulation of what you mean, sometimes close, sometimes far, but a simulation 3. sauve qui puet -- the goths are at the gates peace upon thee |
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06 Jun 00 - 03:00 PM (#239015) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Barbara One of my favorite books on language is called "They Have a Word For It" by Richard(?) Finegold and is a dictionary of words and phrases that English lacks. It includes an Indonesian word for "borrowing as an act of aggression", a Japanese word for "the hysterical fear that your penis is shrinking" and the German word "Corinthencacker" meaning "raisin-sh*tter" -- which raises "anal" to a whole different level. But my favorite is the Italian expression for that moment when your old love shows up at the door and says, "Say sweetie, how 'bout one more time for old times sake?" The expression is "cavoli riscaldati" and translates as "reheated boiled cabbage". In my part of the US (western) when someone sneezes, you may hear "God bless you", "Bless you", "Gesundheit" or "Salud". I stopped saying "Gesundheit" back in college because I had a friend who would always respond "Comesoutloose". New words I either love or hate. I hate nouns that are turned into verbs [satelliting; summitting]. I love things like "going postal", "prairie dogging", and "squick". Is it Atlantic Monthly that listed the new words each month? Blessings, Barbara |
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06 Jun 00 - 03:14 PM (#239023) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Mrr Just had lunch with the Alliance Francaise, and we came up with a bunch more: The French Baleine only means Baleen whale, and excludes the Sperm Whale (toothed) which has its own term, Cachalot. There is no word in French for "whale" that includes the sperm whale unless you use Cetacian, which then includes dolphins, porpoises, and so on Dolphin - dauphin, but porpoise = marsouin. In English the term Penguin refers to penguins at both North and South Poles; in French there are distinct terms, and no word that encompasses both. The French for Manatee/Dugong/Seacow (Lamantin), comes from the finding that if one beaches itself, others from the pod (?) will come and "mourn" (lament), which is also the root of the English mermaid myth (as the cries of a manatee sound like the laments of a woman) AND of the myth of the Sirens, luring sailors with their voices. |
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06 Jun 00 - 04:55 PM (#239072) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Barbara Corrections to my last post: The author of "They Have a Word for It" is Howard Rheingold and the German word is "korinthenkacker". Here are some others: fisselig (German) Flustered to the point of incompetence. mbuki-mvuki(Bantu) To shuck off clothes in order to dance hakanuka-nuka (Easter Island) The act of revenging oneself upon someone for an accumulation of insults or offences ngaobera (Easter Island) A slight inflammation of the throat produced by screaming too much attaccabottoni (Italian) A doleful bore who buttonholes peole and tells sad, pointless stories Drachenfutter (German) Peace offerings for wives from guilty husbands. Literally, "dragon fodder".
If I get time, I'll post more later. |
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06 Jun 00 - 08:03 PM (#239133) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Boy, I have got to start using mbuki-mvuki in sentences RIGHT NOW. What a great term. FFTKAT (pedant alert): there is no language called Bantu, and in fact the term, in Bantu languages such as Swahili, is an insult. We got into all kinds of trouble in our Field Methods class trying to figure out if our informant was speaking a Bantu language because he was, and got all pissed off! |
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06 Jun 00 - 08:26 PM (#239144) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Thanks Barbara - that sounds like the kind of book I hoped might be out there somewhere. I take it it's this Howard Rheingold, whom I've come across before in the context of Internet communities and virtual reality etc. An interesting bod.
ngaobera - that could be handy for talking about football matches and suchlike.
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06 Jun 00 - 09:15 PM (#239164) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Joerg My idea of the meaning of uncouth is lacking social graces, or lacking knowledge, and it tends to show up by someone's actions, e.g. burping or farting in front of other people, being a slob, cramming food into their mouths with fingers, all sorts of behaviour which *someone* or a society has decreed is not acceptable among the sophisticated or civilised members of that society. It's related to brash and vulgar. I haven't looked up the dictionary yet, but I think that the word "couth" is related to the concept of "knowing" so "uncouth" is "unkowing" i.e. not knowing the social rules/etiquette. Don't believe Catspaw when he tries to claim he is uncouth - he is a bit like the educated poets or songwriters trying to be ordinary - he is really a gentle man (gentleman) whose wicked sense of humour pushes him into trying to shock people. Okay, I just looked up the dictionary. Uncouth: awkward, clumsy or unmannerly, as persons, behaviour, actions, etc strange and ungraceful in appearance or form from Un + cuth from Middle English/Old English (i.e. Germanic root) meaning "known". Couth: (colloquial, backformation word from uncouth) meaning civilised, well-mannered. The word "uncouth" is usually said with disdain by people who think they know better. Helen |
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06 Jun 00 - 09:39 PM (#239168) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie Point of fact- Mrr, I don't believe there are penguins at the north pole. Further thread creep: Nor, I think, are there polar bears at the south pole. To get this back on the subject: Is there a word defining or explaining this phenomenon? Ebbie |
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06 Jun 00 - 10:42 PM (#239174) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Ebbie, I wondered about that, and you're right about the bears. However, there is something at the North Pole that the French think look like penguins. Anybody want to follow that one up?? And about your next question, if the phenomenon to which you refer is that of different cultures/languages having different terminologies, I think that yes there is, but it's jargon, not English, and I also think it's linguistic relativity. |
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06 Jun 00 - 11:34 PM (#239198) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Sorry, Spaw, I considered an answer for you but I must first comment the serious things that came afterwards. (Have you ever tried to apply for one of the better jobs at Harvard or so?) Grab - you should hear some people complaining about german being adopting foreign language words every year (BTW there once was a time they mainly complained about english words. Don't they do so any more or am I simply getting too old?) I think I remember Douglas Adams mentioning a ruler somewhere but I can't remember where and in what context, also because I don't know the meaning of 'Liff' and 'Thrupp' and my dictionary refuses to tell it to me. Russ - please believe me that I do not want to offend you but I really believe that what you said is a wrong approach to everything that was asked. Look, psychology has something to do with thinking, but thinking is first thinking. There are other things like that: feeling, painting, dancing, music, body language (is that an english expression?) .... Although they are different from thinking they are of the same kind and therefore much more related to thinking than psychology. Can you see, what I mean? Maybe it helps if I just tell you my own answer to McGrath's original question: OF COURSE it IS POSSIBLE to think of things we do not know words for, but there are people WHO CAN and there are people WHO CAN NOT. No need for theories about language, metaphysics and psychology which are really things the future might or not. We can answer questions like these at once, just by remembering what the words mean instead of introducing new words with different meanings, which indeed can make answers appear VERY complex although they are 'standing out like dog's balls'. Mrr - it is true that people who do not know a foreign language are handicapped regarding concepts foreign languages have words for. But if your experience is that people who do also always do understand concepts they do know words for (even in their own language)... If you are catholic go to the church and light a candle to thank the LORD for the grace he gave to you and you did not realize until today or whatever your religion provides for such occasions (if you are an atheist you might simply do nothing at all). McGrath - do you like science fiction? Can we think of telepathy without knowing how to read each other's thoughts? Barbara - What does your book tell about what a 'Korinthenkacker' is? Raisins in german are 'Rosinen' but there are words for special kinds of them (Weinbeeren, Sultaninen...) 'Korinthen' are the very small, very black, very dry, very hard ones. 'Korinthenkacker' is a word for somebody who clings to details, even cutting things into details, considering details very serious and being blind for the overall coherence. No 'anal' reference, just one to what sh*t looks like. Ever tried 'Sauerkraut' - also boiled cabbage? If so I can hardly imagine that you liked it. Every german gourmet will tell you that there is only one kind of it that is not harmful to human beings - the reheated. Please also note that 'fisselig' and 'Drachenfutter' are not common expressions - you might have to explain their meaning even to germans and this might also apply to 'Korinthenkacker' although the latter kind of explains itself. Joerg
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06 Jun 00 - 11:48 PM (#239204) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul Jorgg, it seems that the English word for 'Korinthen' might be 'currants,' or more specifically 'dried currants.' PA |
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06 Jun 00 - 11:55 PM (#239210) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie No, Mrr, I was being somewhat facetious in referring to a possible word for the scientific fact that one pole has a bird the other hasn't and the other pole has a mammal the other hasn't. I don't suppose that is any more significant than that one continent has indigenous zebras and others don't while another has lynx and others don't. As for the penguin, so far I have found reference only to the southern hemisphere. One old dictionary, however, says the penguin was formerly called the Great Auk. The same dictionary says that the auk is in "northern waters". Could that be the French penguin? Ebbie |
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07 Jun 00 - 03:08 AM (#239263) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Barbara According to Rheingold, Mrr, "At least one scholar believes that [mbuki-mvuki] is a direct precurser for the name that migrated up the Mississippi along with the music it described -- boogie woogie. " Jeorg - Rheingold doesn't say how common the words are, and he does specifically define "Korinthenkacker" as "a person overly concerned with trivial details". I'll type you some more tomorrow. Bed now. Blessings, Barbara |
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07 Jun 00 - 06:43 AM (#239287) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Is this a good explanation of what this thread tends to be about: "the full meanings of words are flashing, iridescent shapes like flames -- ever-flickering vestiges of the slowly evolving consciousness beneath them." History in English Words is one of the relatively few attempts in our language to tell the history of peoples as revealed in these flickering word-shapes. It's a quote by and a comment about Owen Barfield. And here is another one from the same website.
Nobel laureate Saul Bellow has written: We are well supplied with interesting writers, but Owen Barfield is not content to be merely interesting. His ambition is to set us free. Free from what? From the prison we have made for ourselves by our ways of knowing, our limited and false habits of thought, our "common sense." These, he convincingly argues, have produced a "world of outsides with no insides to them," a brittle surface world, an object world in which we ourselves are mere objects. It is not only what we perceive but also what we fail to perceive that determines the quality of the world we live in, and what we have collectively chosen not to perceive is the full reality of consciousness, the "inside" of everything that exists. Helen http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/stevet/fdnc/appa.html |
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07 Jun 00 - 07:01 AM (#239289) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Penguins...I love the way thread drift works somnetimes. "Penguin" was one word for the bird othgerwise known as the Great Auk, a big black and white flightless bird that lived in Arctic regions. When explorers got down to the Southern Hemispshere and saw creatures that looked a lot like them, they used the same name (though they were not in fact all that closely related). So there were two lots of "penguins", Northern and Southern.
Great Auks subsequently got wiped out. So there aren't any Northern Hemisphere penguins now. (Unless you count the ones who live on the Equator in the Galapagos islands.)
I'd forgotten I knew that stuff.
To get back to words - one example of an imported word that changed how we categorise things is "folk", as in "What is Folk?" and so forth. If we didn't have it, I doubt if we'd think in those terms at all. We'd think of songs or music as being traditional, or self-penned or popular etc, and we might like lots of different types of songs, but we wouldn't have the sense of an overarching unity that sets them apart.
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07 Jun 00 - 08:51 AM (#239312) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Grab Re Joerg, Douglas Adams' book "The meaning of Liff" was a mock dictionary using place-names as words for various concepts, and was very funny in places. There is actually a town called Thrupp, and you couldn't think of a better word to describe the noise a ruler makes on the edge of a desk! Another good one is 'Esher', which is a device fitted to push-taps to allow you to wash your trousers without actually getting into the basin. I've heard a bit about German folk worried about the language trying to stop English words from becoming popular. They're fighting a losing battle there, I'd think, mainly bcos the German words are longer than the English ones. A German distinction I like is 'essen'/'fressen' - they both mean 'to eat', but 'fressen' is used for animals eating. Or for very messy people too, I believe. And there's the distinction in German between 'gehen' which implies walking and 'fahren' which implies travelling in or on something. I suppose I should alter my first post to say, a language will pick up new words if those new words fill a gap in the language for which no existing words suffice. In English, 'eat' and 'go' will do us quite nicely, so we don't need to acquire new words for them. If there's any French speakers out there, can you confirm that French has no generic word for a nut? (as in peanut, hazelnut, rather than any other meaning of nut - I know what you folk are like ;-) I know there's names for every different type of nut, but I've heard there's no single word for nuts in particular. Possibly like there's no Eskimo word for 'snow' in particular, they're all specialised - although why this should be the case for nuts in France, I don't know. Grab. |
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07 Jun 00 - 10:31 AM (#239347) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Mrr Thanks, all, for the Auk info, that makes total sense, so we had a word for them that wasn't penguin too. Will so instruct the Alliance Francaise when we cocktail on Friday. Note that the French for Cocktail is Apéritif, while the same drink after dinner is either a pousse-café (a very specific drink in English) or a Digestif. I always liked that drinks were named for their effects on the food you are also (somehow) expected to be eating...which we have in English in the PHRASES before-dinner and after-dinner drink, but not in the WORD Cocktail. Someone remind me of why a cocktail is so named? And yes, Grab, the French have no encompassing term for nut. I used to use Noix to mean nut, but it really means Walnut. And my guess about why this is so is that cooking took precedence over snacking in ancient France; you can snack on any nut, but in cooking, it better be a walnut or a pecan or whatever or the dish turns out wrong. I just made that up. Also, it is apparently a myth that the Inuit have more words for snow than anyone else; skiers have just as many terms (powder, etc) and most Inuit languages only have a few morphemes which can be combined to describe snow - so you have a word that parses to hard-packed-good-for-igloos, and another for soft-watch-out-for-avalanches, but they are built out of the same parts, not separate words the way powder and snow are. But I also recall that they have no generic word for snow. |
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07 Jun 00 - 11:13 AM (#239359) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie Thinking (in words) of whether we can think without words reminds me of the colors and shades of color that we see in sunsets and rainbows. We see them and are awed by them but don't have words for them. Did Helen Keller describe her 'thoughts' before she had words? Ebbie |
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07 Jun 00 - 01:02 PM (#239423) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Barbara Hi crew, here's some more from "They Have a Word for It": tjotjog (Javanese) Harmonious congruence in human affairs. "Tjotjog means to fit, as a key does a lock, as an efficacious medicion does a disease, as a solution does to an arithmetic problem, as a man does with the woman he marries...If your opinion agrees with mine, we tjotjog, if the maning of my name fits my character (and brings me luck), it is said to be tjotjog. Ta sty food, correct theories, good manners, comfortable surroundings, gratifying outcomes are all "tjotjog".
mokita (Kiriwana, New Guinea) Truth everybody knows but nobody speaks.
Blessings, |
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07 Jun 00 - 01:07 PM (#239428) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow "And Barbara, thanks for the tidbit on mvuki-mbuki possibly stemming from boogie-woogie!"
I took her as saying that booogie woogie stemmed from mvuki-mbuki. Still I suppose it's just as likely, even more so perhaps. Anyway, it's a much more interesting definition...
In Irish there are two ways of saying "Goodbye", according to whether you are the one going or the one staying. That seems a very convenient distinction, which could be very useful in a love song, for example.
And English is very deficient in ways of describing family relationships other than the simplest. For example your brother-in-law might be the wife of your brother, or the brother of your wife. And if you've got both sorts of brothers in law, there is no way of simply describing the relationship between the two of them. |
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07 Jun 00 - 01:08 PM (#239429) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: lloyd64 UFFDA There is no Literal translation. It is a Norwegian expression of disgust. lloyd62 |
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07 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM (#239472) Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul Looks like it's time to continue this one. It's getting too long for some folks to load. Please post to BS: There's no word for it... II. ---Please Do Not Post More Here--- |