BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?

16 Jun 00 - 03:34 AM (#243256)
Subject: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Steve Parkes

I see in this morning's Guardian newspaper that Bert Snajch - sorry, Bert Jansch - suggests we should stop calling our music folk and get rid of the Arran sweater image.

Any suggestions?

Steve

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16 Jun 00 - 03:38 AM (#243257)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler

No suggestions, don't own an Aran sweater (does a guernsey count?). BTW did you see in the article that there is to be a tv documentary on him on Channel 4 on 28th June? I'll miss it as I'll be en route for Greece.
RtS

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16 Jun 00 - 03:58 AM (#243260)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy

If it's the Doco that was screened a few years ago it's great! Presented by Billy Connolly, with heaps of living and now deceased folk/blues icons including Brownie Mcgee, Wizz Jones, Ralph Mctell, Hamish Imlach, Davey GRaham, John Renbourne, Al Stewart, Archie Fisher, and many more.

By the way I see his point. The general public's perception of "Folk" does tend to be of Bearded Wierdo's in AAron Sweaters singing "Whack Fol My Diddle-Oh".

Cheers

Bugsy

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16 Jun 00 - 04:22 AM (#243262)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Clinton Hammond2

Here's a better idea.. stop wearing the damn sweaters like they are some kind of gift from the gods.... and stop singing "Whack Fol My Diddle-oh" if yer concerned about it... Learn or write some of the fantastic contemporary folk music that's floating around these days and play that instead...

I myself think there's a time and a place for both sides of the spectrum, but I do tend away from "Whacking" my "Diddle-Oh" too often in a gig...

{~`

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16 Jun 00 - 04:28 AM (#243264)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy

Clinton, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wasn't saying that, that is what folk singer/songwriters are like, I'm saying that is the "General Public's Impression" of what we are like.

Cheers

Bugsy

Whoonlywhackshisdiddle-ohintheprivacyofhisownhouse.

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16 Jun 00 - 04:29 AM (#243265)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt

Lets get this back on track, a suggestion

ALTERNATIVE

Cheers, Sam

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16 Jun 00 - 04:39 AM (#243266)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Skipjack K8

Clinton, with a name like that, I find it hard to believe! *BG*

I have come up against this problem for ages, especially trying to drum up support for pub gigs and sessions.

I decided to call it Irish music, in the post Riverdance world, and that really cured the problem. Irish is cool (possibly was, but that's another thread's worth) and folk ain't. Pull 'em in, most like it, some don't. But they wouldn't have come anyway if it had a folk label.

The Arran sweater thing stumps me. I've never seen one worn in anger. Perhaps it's just been handed down the last couple of generations, from the 60's and the Spinners.

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16 Jun 00 - 04:41 AM (#243268)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy

Already spoken for Sam, Usually includes, Thrash, Punk, Hardcore, etc..

I was going to suggest acoustic, but then again not all folk is acoustic either.

CHeers

Bugsy

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16 Jun 00 - 04:46 AM (#243270)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Clinton Hammond2

My point was that we continue to call it FOLK, casue that's what it is... but we work hard to change the "Public Image".. I'd much rather see that happen anyway...

Gods know I'm not a huge fan of the diddly music... Give me a good singer-songwriter anyday...

And Skipjack K8?? I don't get the joke I think yer trying to make...

{~`

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16 Jun 00 - 05:12 AM (#243275)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Skipjack K8

Sorry, Clinton, it was in very poor taste. I was alluding to the well publicised proclivities of Mr President.

Just off to see my therapist. This has put me back weeks!

Best regards, anyway.

Skipjack

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16 Jun 00 - 07:20 AM (#243294)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Lady McMoo

1) There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Aran jumpers or cardies. I own one although I never wear it during gigs....much too sweaty!

2) I think I agree with Mr Jansch on this one. While there is nothing wrong with the word "folk" itself it does conjure up an anachronistic image in most of the public's mind, unfortunately immediately prejudicing them against some fantastic music without actually bothering to listen to it. I've tried "acoustic music" and "roots music" but am not entirely happy with either for some of the reasons previously stated. Perhaps it doesn't need categorizing at all other than obvious labels like "contemporary" or "traditional" or "Irish traditional", etc.?

Peace

mcmoo

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16 Jun 00 - 08:08 AM (#243308)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Gary T

"Music too good to be commercially successful."

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16 Jun 00 - 09:22 AM (#243333)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Grab

Should we stop calling blues blues, then, and get away from the hard-drinking black male stereotype too? Or stop calling country country, and get away from the "lonesome cowboy" stereotype?

Anyway, given the popularity of "Irish" music and events such as the Fleadh, is folk in need of help like this? Seems like it's on its way up anyway, so the stereotype doesn't matter.

Grab.

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16 Jun 00 - 09:22 AM (#243334)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: MikeofNorthumbria

"What's in a name? A tune by any other name would sound as sweet"

It matters not what we call the music/song/dance styles currently referred to as 'folk'. Those who know and like 'folk' will still recognise it, and be able to tell the good from the not-so-good. And those who don't like it won't be fooled by a new label - they'll keep on picking on the least attractive examples of the genre, claiming that they're typical, and mocking them.

Moreover,the Bastards in Suits who run the commercial music industry will continue to hate 'folk', whatever flag it sails under. Because 'folk' is home-made music, produced by the people, for the people. The industry needs us all to be docile consumers of their mass-produced wares. Any form of home-made music (especially when it's given away for free) is a threat to their profits. So they rarely miss a chance to sneer at it.

And the majority of music journalists and media-persons will continue to dislike 'folk' whatever name we dream up for it. Because, although the 'folk' genre has always had some space for growth and innovation, it's basically about continuity and tradition. And continuity and tradition are BORING! Especially if you earn your living writing a weekly column praising everything that's shiny-new, and trashing everything that's been around longer than a few weeks.

So, call it 'folk' , or 'roots', or 'traditional', or what you like - but just keep on DOING it!

Wassail!

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16 Jun 00 - 09:44 AM (#243343)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: A Wandering Minstrel

God damn! I knew it, I am a living stereotype! Actually the Aran sweater is a bit of a red herring. Any heavy cable knit will suffice. I get mine from craft fairs.

All the male members of the club I go to have beards ( and some of the women too but thats another thread) We sing all these ancient and traditional songs about beer, sailing in tall ships, mining coal and being ripped off by capitalist bosses. The songs have tunes and the pitch of the singers voices alters periodically. bet you dont get that on MTV.

Im folk and Im proud.

If you want me to sing that, hang on while I fill up my tankard and stick my finger in my ear. Oh Whack foll the diddle doll the riddle dill the dido...

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16 Jun 00 - 10:48 AM (#243381)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: BanjoRay

The only useful addition to the title 'folk' is a regional adjective like Irish, Appalachian, Chinese etc. This'll tell tell you most of what you need to know! The Aran sweaters were only ever worn by the Clancy brothers about 35 years ago, although there are still a lot of beards about (including mine, but I am a banjo player). People who like the music won't mind it being called folk, and people who don't don't matter (tee hee).
Cheers
Ray

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16 Jun 00 - 10:49 AM (#243384)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Mrr

Folkies DO have facial hair, just check out the pix of the Great Adventure. Oh, OK, Alice doesn't, but everyone with a Y chromosome is giving their secondary sexual charactersitics free rein. Wonder if folky women are less likely to shave too, wherever it is that American women tend to shave... You don't have to answer this one!

No, but seriously folks, ha ha, I agree with Clinton who thinks that the term is fine, let's change the image. Actually not quite: The term is fine, and why worry about the image to outsiders? Anyone into folk has a pretty good image of folk even if that image does include beards. Anyone not into folk, who cares what they think?

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16 Jun 00 - 11:21 AM (#243399)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Richard Bridge

"acoustic" seems to work quite well - or "unplugged" if you are aiming more modern still.

By the way, did you hear about the folk singer who had an Aaron sweater? I actually saw a poster with "Arran" spelt that way once! I sort of assumed the person might be into biblical roots music.

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16 Jun 00 - 11:24 AM (#243401)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Rana who SHOULD be working

Retro? Ducking for cover quickly. :-)

Seriously, FOLK is fine as others have said, change the image - no-one has mentioned the hand behind the ear (or is it finger in the ear)

Rana

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16 Jun 00 - 12:53 PM (#243437)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Mrr

I thought it was Aran, anyway, no double letters at all...

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16 Jun 00 - 08:05 PM (#243578)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Never heard a cow sing? Well that's a change from the usual horse. It's not true anyway, in either case, as has been pointed out numerous times - though maybe cows are generally better singers than horses. They like music too. I remember hitching one time by a field full of cows, and there were no rides, so I started playing, and they all came over and looked interested. (I didn't say they had good msuical taste...)

So to distinguish our repertoire from that of cows and horses, maybe we should just call it human music. There's Real Human Music, which is what we try to do, and there's Phony Human Music which is what gets thrown at us all the time.

And you've said it there, Mike me marrer, so I'll put it in again in case people might have missed it

-"And the majority of music journalists and media-persons will continue to dislike 'folk' whatever name we dream up for it. Because, although the 'folk' genre has always had some space for growth and innovation, it's basically about continuity and tradition. And continuity and tradition are BORING! Especially if you earn your living writing a weekly column praising everything that's shiny-new, and trashing everything that's been around longer than a few weeks."

Exactly. It's not the image that is the problem, it's the reality of the music, and that's what we like about it. You don't get rid of prejudice by changing your image. You live with it, and you overcome it. (And how many Aran sweaters has anyone seen since the Clancys? If they said weskits now, at least they'd be in touch of the true image.)

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16 Jun 00 - 08:18 PM (#243586)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Art Thieme

Sam Pirt, I'm listening to you and Bill Sables as I type this. It's a fine recording. You do a grand job with your squeezebox. Thanks for your role in my having the CD!

Art Thieme

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16 Jun 00 - 08:39 PM (#243597)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Rick Fielding

Not sure if I should be replying in the "plastic Paddy" thread or this one. While playing with the "Sons of Erin" I had to wear one of those Damn sweaters. Seriously hot! 'Course had a beard as well. Oh, and no other chords except 1,4,5. (with a 2 thrown in to be radical)

"Folk" is what young people play until they get a decent record deal (and can afford a band). After that it's called "roots-rock". Companies and festivals (on this side of the pond) don't want to scare off the public by calling it "folk".

Rick

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16 Jun 00 - 09:03 PM (#243603)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

About Aran sweaters (and it's one r, for the Aran Isles - two r's and it's Arran off Scotland) - and the gist of it is, the Aran pattern isn't a great traditional Gaelic thing at all - there was someone went over to America in the early years of the century, and bought a book with knitting patterns back home to the Aran Isles, and they caught on. And here is a website telling all about this

The other thing, which puts a more serious spin on that is that one reason for having different knitting patterns in different places, which was a real tradition in many places, was so that when sailors and fishermen were drowned they'd know where they came from, and could let the family know. John Kirkpatrick wrote a great song about that. A shattering song in fact. (I think it's called something like "A twist of thread" - but someone else could correct me.)

Anyway, though they might be grand things to wear on a boat, they're the last thing anyone would wear on a sweaty stage unless they'd had their arms twisted.

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17 Jun 00 - 12:18 AM (#243664)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Rollo

Is there really an image problem?

Hey, listen carefully to mainstream, folk influence is spreading... If there is really a problem, we should do it like the cajuns when rock'n roll threatened to kill their music, the took it over and turned it into swamp rock...

But let's just keep it as ist is, for there are just two possibilities. a) folk is getting really popular - that means a lot of crap produced by obsucre money-makers, all the kids telling you whats cool and what isn't, and soon you can't stand it any longer to hear all the good ole songs to be made into "hip stuff" and return to classic or (beware!) that dinosaur style they once called "Rock" because it remembers you of better times ling ago. b) Folk is not getting more popular, keeps "our" music, and we can hang around in dim lit drinking holes wearing something we believe to be old fashion hand made rural style, listen to some damn good musicians and make jokes about all this yesterday men hanging around in dim lit drinking holes, wearing leather vests and jeans listening to sum hot blues man...

I would really suggest to vote for b. Its more fun and we stay the cool ones.

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17 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM (#243687)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: bob jr

hey there was this joke i heard once in a movie by woody allen where he asks the aliens how he can make the world a better place and they say "your a comedian you want to make the world a better place? tell funnier jokes" same applies here i think you want the publics support play good music and stop worrying bout what it is called just what it makes you and others feel

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17 Jun 00 - 01:25 AM (#243699)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: zonahobo

How about "Nowage" music .. also thought of flok music but that seems to fit Pop better ...

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17 Jun 00 - 06:09 AM (#243729)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Lanfranc

Having been involved in singing in and running Folk Clubs for the thick end of 35 years, I have always resisted any change of name in pursuit of bigger audiences.

The thing I always try to bear in mind is that audiences go to any music venue to be entertained. When they encounter a group of introverted excluding self-important individuals running the show, they vote with their feet. It doesn't matter if the music on offer is Folk, Jazz, Blues, House or even Classical.

Put Tom Paxton, Vin Garbutt or the late Alex Campbell (as just three examples of many) in front of any audience and they will communicate with them and almost certainly fill the hall or whatever. Remember that Billy Connolly, Jasper Carrott and Mike Harding cut their teeth in the Folk Clubs, and Steeleye Span, Fairport Convention and Battlefield Band didn't or don't want for audiences either.

Give and you will receive, make the music and songs relevant and entertaining and people will listen. The label doesn't matter - JUST COMMUNICATE!

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17 Jun 00 - 02:30 PM (#243831)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Noreen

Try this blue clickie Charming man for the original article in the Guardian.

--Noreen

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4029813,00.html

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17 Jun 00 - 06:21 PM (#243878)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: The Shambles

I really don't think that it is the music that has the problem. It the idea that if you like the music you have to be a Folkie. The image of the Folkie has been pretty well described in this thread and is it any wonder that normal (whatever that is) people are a little wary of being thought of as a Folkie?

The children of Folkies do seem to adopt a different image, even if they continue to play and like the music? So maybe there is yet hope?

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17 Jun 00 - 06:45 PM (#243881)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"The children of Folkies do seem to adopt a different image, even if they continue to play and like the music" -the children of most people seem to adopt a different image. That's what children do and always have done. Call it image,call it style, call it fashion - it's transient and superficial, and in our hearts we all knew it, even when we were young.

What's different about the children of folkies who stick with the music is that their music continues to be made within a tradition, and exists within a sub-culture that does not reject that which is old, and those who are old as disposable, or regard novelty as the only thing that counts.

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17 Jun 00 - 06:59 PM (#243884)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Mbo

My parents aren't folkies, in fact they don't care for music that much at all. 45 minutes of music and they don't want to hear it anymore for at least 2 days. I have a great love for many kinds of music, including folk, and I like to play it straight, and to mix it up with other kinds of music. This is no "transient, superficial" thing, it is how I work and how I create & play music. My dillema is that I like older music traditons that people my age obviously hate and put down(bringing folk music to class didn't go over to well)and I like a lot of modern music that older people hate and put down. Could someone please tell me where I fit in the picture?

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17 Jun 00 - 07:28 PM (#243889)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

You don't have to fit in any picture, Mbo. You're the one who paints the picture. And I reckon it's a good 'un.

I've sometimes thought, there are two sorts of young folkies (pace Shambles - whatever the style or image may be, for me, if they love the music, that's what they are) - there are those who are second generation (or third or fourth...) and those who are first generation. And I've wondered how that feels and works out. Is there a tension about that kind of thing?

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17 Jun 00 - 08:07 PM (#243896)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Crowhugger

Meebs, it's your canvas to paint as you wish. Sounds to me like it's a music picture! Categories are good for convenient reference but heck, toss 'em if they become inconvenient.

McGrath, what tension? I'm at least 2nd generation, no, 3rd or more on my father's side. Last fall a brand-new banjoist and I were jamming. No tension, just a blast! Are you referring to a particular experience that you had?

CH.

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17 Jun 00 - 08:54 PM (#243909)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

No, I'm just curious,is all. What I had in mind is, we all have a sort of rivalry with our parents at some time. You know, the old thing about how when you're growing you realise your parents are right eejits - and then after a few years, it can be amazing how much more sensible they have become...

Well, if you're a second generation folkie, that's going to apply as well. So I'd expect you to be a bit impatient and dismissive of some of the old stuff the parents do, or think it should all be played at twice the speed and that..

But if you're a first generation folkie, I'd imagine that the intergenerational scorn would be directed at your own parents - and you'd might even be more in tune with the older folkies. (A bit analogouse to the way folk song collectors would sometimes focus their attention on the old grandparents, and the younger generation would have their noses put out of joint at times in the process.)

And that's what I meant by wondering about different attitudes and tension. Creative tension I'd hope. I'm not suggesting fistfights or suchlike - more disagreements about who to emulate and how fast tunes should be played, and so forth.

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17 Jun 00 - 10:46 PM (#243930)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: bob jr

how about foke? you could have foke machines that you put money into and foke comes out! it could have some snappy slogan like foke adds life or something.

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17 Jun 00 - 10:59 PM (#243933)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: sophocleese

Personally I think we should call it "Fred" to avoid confusion...

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18 Jun 00 - 06:53 AM (#243985)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: alison

there's nothing wrong with Aran jumpers.. I've knit a few in my time..... great warm cosy things they are too.. but I have to agree with the others who said that they are too warm to even think of wearing on stage... The Clancy's must have been sweltered!!

we've been going through this problem with our local folk club.. the name scares people off.... even though we are not "strictly" folk, in fact anything is welcome and usually joined in with... so I have recently advertised us as a "music club"....

so far I've had interest expressed from a heavy metal guitarist (who is happy to play acoustically) and an operatic singer...... our next meeting should be interesting!! Maybe I'll try "Acoustic" next......

slainte

alison

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18 Jun 00 - 08:10 AM (#243994)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Pixie

how about "non-commercial, no radio-play, you won't hear me unless you listen to CBC/University radio" music...come on "folks".....would the point of changing the name be to get more air play????? Wider audience?????Think about it - there are responses to this thread from various sites around the world from people who have come into this site because of the label "folk". What is that saying? If it don't need fixing, don't fix it?????

Pixie

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18 Jun 00 - 08:53 AM (#244004)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Mooh

My dissenting opinion.

I frankly do not agree with Bert Jansch's suggestion. As a tradition, folk in its various forms is much older than any of us or our family trees. Renaming things seems like too much a 90's revisionist thing (to me) and will not change anything but increase the confusion felt by newcomers to the tradition. BJ is an incredibly gifted musician, but that doesn't mean we should accept his every utterance as worthy. In the end it will remain folk because it is folk, and history tells us it is so.

To provoke discussion about this matter is not in itself a bad thing, but I'm not sure that's the point. I'm suspicious that BJ was implying more about his own discomfort with his tradition or situation than with a general or universal sense of discomfort with the tradition. As good as he is, he doesn't speak for the whole tradition.

As for the image, so what? Don't subscribe to it. The sweater image is not very prevalent where many folk live and practice. Every form has its image, even cliches, but all you have to do is pick up a folk periodical or attend a festival to see that the sweater image doesn't reign everywhere, it's just a part of the larger picture.

My suggestion? Bert Jansch was not on the money this time.

My $0.02 Cdn funds, Mooh.

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18 Jun 00 - 05:59 PM (#244139)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I suppose "feck music" might be an interesting alternative.

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18 Jun 00 - 11:58 PM (#244262)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Art Thieme

Good folks,

To me and most knowledgable ones, there's "folk music" and there's "fake music". And we know it when we hear it.

Art Thieme

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19 Jun 00 - 12:36 AM (#244281)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: bob jr

atr you sound like some kinda know-it-all that i wouldnt want to know at all. guthries guitar said this machine kills fascists not become one!

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19 Jun 00 - 01:57 AM (#244295)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Crowhugger

warning: major, LONG thread drift!

McGrath,

Personally, those intergenerational tensions showed up in areas other than music. My Mom got her guitar from my father's uncle when he died some 40-ish years ago; she got the Pete Seeger record and book and was off to the races. I was 3 when my mother accompanied me on a recording of kiddy songs to give to the grandmothers for Xmas.

I teethed on Prokofiev and Pete, oh and Paul Robeson (he knew my grandfather), kindergartened with Kingston Trio, Harry Belafonte, Chopin, Bach, Marian Anderson...Primary school added Haydn, Handel, Herb Alpert, Sergio Mendes and Brazil '66...and on through life.

My father taught me to play ukelele before I was anywhere near big enough to hold a guitar, even my mother's small Martin--and I was a tall child with large hands. As soon as I was almost big enough, I was putting the uke chords on the guitar. My parents showed me what to do with the other two strings. And then I tried the banjo. All this to a backdrop of a women's barbershop chorus, which my mother conducted. My father played French horn when I was young; had both an F and an E-flat horn as I recall--tough going for 8-year-old lungs I can tell you, but I could press the valve levers just fine!

In other words, it was all music to me and still is, including genres at which my maternal grandmother turned up her huge nose (not inherited, thankfully!)

Other people can debate classification all they want. I figure that all music is fusion and you can go crazy trying to name its ancestry and/or its present forms. Like some kinds of 'blues' are maybe Afro-celtic? Puhleeze.

My job is certainly not to compartmentalize something so closely woven as music--I'll leave that to the marketers. I'd rather sing, accompany myself acceptably on guitar, harmonize, get my lazy behind back to the banjo, and speed up on cello.

I have an idea that there has been a thread about the sort of tension you mentioned, but maybe it just came up under another topic.

END OF THIS CHAPTER OF THREAD DRIFT!!

CH.

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19 Jun 00 - 05:24 PM (#244620)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Terry Allan Hall

I've gotten a lot of milage over the last 25 years out of "Contemporary Acoustic"...vague enough to cover most any type of music employing acoustic instruments.

Silly to even concern ourselves... ;-)

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19 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM (#244695)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Just for curiosity I checked through the introduction by Donal Lummy to the Christy Moore Songbook. Four pages all about Christy and where he fits in and what's he's done, and what he sings - and the word "folk" doesn't come into it once. And unless I'm very much mistaken, in a book with 142 pages and over 100 songs, the word doesn't come up once either.

And I wouldn't think for a moment that that is intentional "let's not use that word" - it's just wouldn't have seemed a significant word in the contextof a living tradition.

The definition doesn't lie in the word, it stands or falls with the people making the music. You don't add to the clarity of the situation by saying that Christy Moore is a folk singer.. or Martin Carthy... or Norma Waterson...and so forth. You define the music by saying "it's the sort of songs that Christy Moore, or Martin Carthy...Norma Waterson.. and so forth...all sing". And that's how I'd read what Art said just now, and got savaged for. (And Art would be in that list as well.)

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19 Jun 00 - 09:49 PM (#244714)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Mbo

Yes, Kevin, but what does Art mean by "fake music"? Is he saying that anything that isn't "folk" is fake, artificial, worthless? Or is he saying that other musics that try to be "folk" come off as fake? In my own personal opinion, NO music is fake. Every shred of music you can find had merit, at least to me. Even rap, even Hardcore, even Insane Clown Posse--they all are legitimate music, though I may not like or agree with them all, I do believe that worth SOMEBODY's listening time. Who am I, or indeed any of us, to pass such judgement on other's brands of music? What makes us so high & mighty that we can insult music that isn't "folk", yet taking great offense when someone from another music world insult us? Note: I am not one of "us"--I am neither a folkie, or wish to be one. Put me down as a "lover of all music." Period.

--Mbo

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19 Jun 00 - 10:07 PM (#244726)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I didn't hear Art passing any judgements on brands of music. Fake is when someone doesn't believe in what they are doing. Happens all the time, more's the pity. In all "worlds of music", including the innumerable different types of music that get called "folk" from time to time.

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19 Jun 00 - 11:07 PM (#244756)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Mrbisok@aol

Please enlighten me: what's an Aran? What's a jumper with the adjective Aran preceding it? What's an Aran sweater?

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19 Jun 00 - 11:36 PM (#244767)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: catspaw49

An Aran is a citizen of Aranrefrain, a small country which specializes in shagging sheep. Its located just to the southeast of Dumthred and its first born are all sent to Mexico to apprentice as umbrella skinners. The climate in Mexico is far warmer than their native land, hence the term Aran sweaters. Those left behind shagging sheep in the abject poverty of the homeland are tired and, oppressed by the Dumthred armies, often leap from buildings and are Aran jumpers. Fortunately the highest building in Aranrefrain is only 6 foot high.

Hope this helps.

Spaw

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19 Jun 00 - 11:39 PM (#244768)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Mbo

Words of Aran

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20 Jun 00 - 01:30 AM (#244804)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST

bob jr, if you want to hear what folk music and songs sound like, get some of Art's phono records or his recent CD.

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20 Jun 00 - 04:02 AM (#244833)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Peter Kasin

How about calling it "light metal"?

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20 Jun 00 - 08:36 AM (#244873)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Whistle Stop

I agree with a lot of the people who have posted to this thread -- Crowhugger, Mbo, and others -- that the name really doesn't matter. But I'm curious: how long have we been using the term "folk music" anyway? My guess is that the term has been around for a while, but only came into common usage relatively recently, and never had a definition that was very clear.

At this point the world at large has a vague idea of what "folk music" means -- acoustic guitars; young people who vaguely resemble the young Dylan and Baez and take themselves way too seriously; older people with who resemble Woody and Pete and are forever trying to convince us of the importance of labor union songs from the early part of this century; facial hair (men and women alike); self-absorption, political correctness, and boredom. Not a terribly flattering image, if images concern you. We have a different view of it, but we're aware of the stereotype, and recognize that, like most stereotypes, it has some truth to it.

My guess is that the common perception of "folk" music (however accurate or inaccurate it is), and the common usage of the term, is based in the 1950s. That's pretty recent, and suggests that there's nothing particularly sacred about the term. Any thoughts on that?

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20 Jun 00 - 01:53 PM (#244999)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Kim C

"Folk" is a pretty broad term - it encompasses so much. I consider "traditional" music to be folk music, but also songs that tell a story. Maybe I'm the only one, but I think Tom T. Hall could be considered a folkie, even though he had a whole slew of hits on commercial radio. ("The Homecoming" is one of my favorite songs of his.) He is a master of telling a story in a song, which of course is a folk tradition that probably goes back to the very origins of singing.

"Folk" is also a term that most people understand pretty well.... if you say "folk", they know you're NOT talking about Top 40 anything. They may not understand the intricacies of what "folk" is, but they pretty much know what it AIN'T.

Besides, "folk" lends itself to some good wordplays, i.e., we're just folking around, we're all folked up, folk you, etc. :)

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20 Jun 00 - 02:17 PM (#245008)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Steve Latimer

'Spaw,

Thanks for clearing that up.

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20 Jun 00 - 02:53 PM (#245018)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Jim Dixon

I don't think anyone's attitude was ever changed by changing the name of something.

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20 Jun 00 - 02:55 PM (#245019)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bert

'cleese, Calling it Fred wouldn't avoid any confusion 'cos I've got a guitar named Fred.

Mbo, The way I interpret Art's remark is that Folk music is natural music and fake music is 'contrived' music. If someone sings or plays music naturally just for the sheer enjoyment of it then it's folk music. If someone is playing something for some artificial reason then that is fake music. Some of the artificial reasons for playing music are... commercial, political, sponsored, prestigious and religious. You can probably think of some more. And you don't have to like any of it just because it's music. Of course that doesn't stop people from singing 'fake music' just for the enjoyment of it; then it becomes folk music.

But as Art says 'we know it when we hear it'.

Bert.

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20 Jun 00 - 07:22 PM (#245123)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Mary

I think part of the problem today is that (as Rick said) as up-and-coming band claims the title "folk" until they can be embraced by the pop world.

Sadly, real folk music gets watered down until people just thing it's boring, light strumming.

I like the new genre of antifolk. The name sounds confusing even though everyone I know playing it sounds more like Woody Guthrie than any of the current crop of "pop-folkies".

Mary

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20 Jun 00 - 07:34 PM (#245127)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Back slang would make it klof music - inviting accusations that it only appeals to people with cloth ears; but regardless, I quite like the idea of being a klofsinger.

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20 Jun 00 - 07:37 PM (#245130)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: sophocleese

GUEST,Mrbisok@aol as nobody yet has answered your question. "Jumper" is another quaint English term for "sweater". An Aran swetaer or jumper is a sweater knitted in the style of those made on the Aran isles off of Ireland. Usually a cream coloured, or other natural shade of wool is used and patterns are created through texture with cables and twisted stitches. Its a useful design as the density of the pattern added to the insulation while the crossed over stitches kept it flexible for ease of movement. They are warm sweaters, not at all comfortable to wear under hot stage lights.

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20 Jun 00 - 10:34 PM (#245196)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: catspaw49

I knew I could count on you Bill! Thanks for showing up.

Spaw

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21 Jun 00 - 02:21 AM (#245295)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: bob jr

the problem here doesnt seem to be with the term folk but more how some people are defining it. people limit themselves by defining a thing too tightly. someone playing a guitar by himself aint neccesarily folk music and some one you think is a fake aint neccesarily so.calling music whatever you like is ok as long as you like what you play....i dont know if something is commercial or sponsered its fake man thats alot of good people to be tarring with that brush...maybe folk to you aint folk to me and vice versa but i dont like all the negativity i read here like some of you wearing folk like it is some kinda holy vestament or something its another expresion like country or the blues or jazz or rock or classical i try and find something to like in most music and if i cant i see that as a personal thing not a condemnation of a whole genre ....guess thats not clear at all but i just play i dont write too good

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21 Jun 00 - 02:45 AM (#245302)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy

See, I used to have this restaurant where I employed "Folk" musicians and gave the punters a 2 course meal and floorshow for the one low price. Also paid the muso's over the going rate for the work. I originally called it "THE ATTIC FOLK CLUB" and only got a few folkies and no other patrons. I changed the name to THE ATTIC MUSIC CLUB" and got a lot more patrons all of whom said they liked the entertainment. One guy came up to me and said, "That was great entertainment, What would you call that music?" When I told him "Folk", he said, "But I don't like folk music". He never would have come to the ATTIC FOLK CLUB, but had a great time at THE ATTIC MUSIC CLUB. He now goes to other folk clubs and enjoys the music.

I don't know if you consider him to be a little stupid or bigoted, but he's like so many out there who would love folk music if they got past the "folk" bit.

Cheers

Bugsy

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21 Jun 00 - 10:13 AM (#245390)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Kim C

Klofsinger! I love it!

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21 Jun 00 - 11:54 AM (#245446)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: dick greenhaus

What you call something should, ideally, have something
to do with what it is. If you want to stew some meat
in a sauce made of chilies, garlic, cumin and coriander,
that's fine; just don't call it oatmeal.

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21 Jun 00 - 12:03 PM (#245451)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: catspaw49

Damn Dick!!!! I don't think you have used that before in these multitudinous "Define Folk" things and its GREAT!!!

There is a reason for definitions, even if its for simply saving time at the record store. We have a lot of new players on this thread, but the arguments are pretty much the same.

Spaw

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21 Jun 00 - 05:27 PM (#245575)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: The Shambles

Not 'Folk' - What shall we call it' was followed by------

'Gardening can be dangerous'.

So we won't be calling it gardening then?

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21 Jun 00 - 07:23 PM (#245623)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"stew some meat in a sauce made of chilies, garlic, cumin and coriander" -that sounds very tasty. But I think it'd be better if you added in some oatmeal.

Or maybe porridge oats would be better. (I mean, if it's oatmeal, is it really oats?)

There used to be Chinese Restaurants and Fish and Chip Shops. Nowadays round where I live most of the Fish and Chip Shops are run by Chinese owners and sell Chinese Food as well. Sometimes we call them Chinese Takaways, and sometimes Chippies. The tradition marches on. I think Chinese Chippies are folk; and Macdonalds is fake.

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22 Jun 00 - 02:02 AM (#245763)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: catspaw49

Do they serve "Toad in the Hole" and call it "Frog in the Lotus Pond?"

I'll just have some grits.

Spaw

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22 Jun 00 - 02:11 AM (#245766)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: The Shambles

Just number 23.

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22 Jun 00 - 03:11 AM (#245772)
Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: The Shambles

Well we could always try World Music? But………….What is it with the World?.

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