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22 Jun 00 - 04:14 PM (#246045) Subject: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Joe Offer These messages were getting lost in another thread, and I thought it might be a good idea to transfer them here and see what discussion they inspire. -Joe Offer
What do you think? -Joe Offer- |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:22 PM (#246048) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Joe Offer I am very much in favor of labeling recordings that have explicit lyrics, but I think that's a different matter. When my son was ten yours old, he bought a CD from a group named Loverboy that had really raunchy lyrics, and this was before the time when they had warning labels on CD's. From the outside of the shrink-wrapped package, there was no way to tell what was inside. Once he had already spent his money, it was tough to convince my son why he shouldn't have the CD, and it was even tougher to convince the store manager that my son should receive a refund (I got the refund, and the kid didn't get to keep the CD - but he's 27 now and went on to write his own songs, which are far raunchier). I think the forum and the database are a different matter. I wouldn't expect a library to paste "explicit lyrics" labels on books - although I would expect they wouldn't keep dirty books in the children's section. It's quite obvious that the Forum and the lyrics database are not for children, although I don't think any permanent harm would be done to a child who gave us a visit. If you have a song you want to post and it has explicit lyrics, I think you shouldn't hesitate to post it. We're big kids here. -Joe Offer- |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:25 PM (#246049) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: MMario I'm cutting my own throat here, considering the content filter I "live" behind, but IMHO: I think possibly a generic warning that contents of the forum and database are not censored, possibly in the newcomer's faq, and people are of course free to label their own contributions. However if someone starts trying to decide which lyrics are "explicit" and which are only "offensive" or "suggestive" .... yeesh, the headache. Not to mention controversy, and disagreement. |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:25 PM (#246050) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Bert Or maybe we should have a warning about the warning notice... "If this warning notice offends you, please skip it and get straight to the nitty gritty" ;-) |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:25 PM (#246051) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: katlaughing I agree...if anyone is worried, they can post a disclaimer before the words. If we started labeling lyrics, then we'd probably wind up doing the same to the threads and that would be a HUGE project! kat |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:36 PM (#246052) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Joe Offer I posted this message in the "Mudcatiquette" section in the FAQ: Explicit Lyrics: Some people have suggested that there should be a warning posted at the beginning of threads that include lyrics that are sexually explicit. Bawdy songs have always been an integral part of folk music, and you'll find lots of dirty ditties if you do a category search of our database for @bawdy. There is no set policy on this sort of thing, but Standard Mudcat Policy is that freedom of expression is to be encouraged and protected. If you're going to post something spicy and think you should label it, that's fine - but there is no requirement for labeling here and visitors are advised that they read at their own risk.I guess I have to admit that there are some songs I won't post, even though people have requested them. If a song is hateful or really raunchy and I don't like it, I'll send it by e-mail or personal message. But that's my own thing, where I draw the line for myself - and I certainly wouldn't object if somebody else posted the song. -Joe Offer- |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:38 PM (#246054) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: SINSULL I just heard a song called "Rufus and Beverly" (I think) expecting it to be some mushy sort of old folks love song. It wasn't. If it offended me I wouldn't play it again. The subject matter - a humorous commentary on sex change and the confusion it can create - will probably offend someone. Should Joe or Max have to create a warning for this sort of thing too? Please note: As a parent and former child I can assure you that attaching warnings to a lyric will attract rather than deter the under 18 crowd . On the other hand, the same sort of disclaimer on the Homepage will probably attract a whole new generation of Mudcatters.
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22 Jun 00 - 04:38 PM (#246055) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Max WARNING: Life may contain things that are offensive. Life may contain sexual situations, racism, hate, bad language, rude behavior, fascism, censorship, tragedy, and politics. If you are offended by anything in life, we recommend a unique and personal defense. One shall not be provided for you by any religion, government, organization or other entity external to you or your immediate family. Because that would be wrong. Folk is Life with a better melody. The warning is inherent. |
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22 Jun 00 - 04:44 PM (#246056) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: MMario I like that Max. |
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22 Jun 00 - 06:00 PM (#246092) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Ed Pellow I'd agree totally with Max - life includes sex and violence. When I was 10 years old, I bought the Sex Pistols record "Something Else" My parents took it away from me because of the B Side Friggin in the Riggin Hearing that as a ten year old has not caused me any lasting damage, and looking at it now it's a very dull lyric. The vast majority of mudcatters doubtless have erotic encounters in the privacy of their own bedrooms, kitchen, gardens or wherever. The idea of marking songs with a warning in case they offend anyone is absurd. Folk songs are about life, and I for one am glad that life involves sex Ed |
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22 Jun 00 - 06:09 PM (#246094) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Amergin I'm with you all. I detest any sort of censorship that comes from any government or religious agency. It doesn't just apply to folk music either. It applies to literature, art, news, etc etc. Nor is it a thing of the past, even this is fair land of free speech (USA). Amerginwhohadasemivalidpointinmindwhenhestartedwritingthisbutunfortunatelyforgotit |
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22 Jun 00 - 06:26 PM (#246098) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: The Shambles I don't like songs with explicit swear words and references to the body. I use the words so I don't really understand why I have this feeling. But there is a tradition of these songs in the services and there are also rugby songs and maybe these are the folk songs we should be singing loudly and not thinking about hiding them away? |
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22 Jun 00 - 06:33 PM (#246100) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo One day music is gonna be so laden with filth that it'll be the stats qou, and we'll all be desensitized. Then people are going to have to start writing clean songs to get a shock out of people. |
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22 Jun 00 - 07:04 PM (#246118) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Sorcha Thank you Max. I agree completely. |
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22 Jun 00 - 08:08 PM (#246139) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Irish sergeant As a writer and as someone who served my country for seventeen years, I find any form of censorship repellent. Max, you are absolutely right. The onl;y way to avoid all the things that offend our sensibilities is to die. We don't have to use those words or sing those songs if we choose not to but let's not get into the habit of depriving others the right to do so if they wish. That is called totalitarianism. It starts with innocuous labeling by the way. Fortunately, most of us in Mudcat have common sense. I would say all of us but I haven't met everybody yet, have I? Have a great night and stay free!!, Neil |
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22 Jun 00 - 08:42 PM (#246164) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: catspaw49 Uh, Meebo.......FILTH? "Filth" would involve a song about licking the genitals of a 2 week dead camel. Go read some Lenny Bruce. You'll also find that Lenny espoused that same argument you did, but about pot. One day it might be legal because all the people smoking it would become judges and lawyers and congressmen, and would have to legalize it to protect themselves. He said that in the 60's and I'm still waiting, papers in hand. Spaw |
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22 Jun 00 - 08:50 PM (#246172) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Whatever. |
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22 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM (#246177) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: rangeroger Spaw,I'm glad you've got papers. The last time I was asked for my papers I had to tell the cops I only have pipie. rr |
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22 Jun 00 - 10:38 PM (#246246) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Bill D F**K Censorship |
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23 Jun 00 - 12:00 AM (#246281) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: katlaughing Alright, Resident Curmudgeon! Succinct and to the point!**BG** Max, I know I typed in a post earlier, must've hit the wrong button...that is one of the best things I've ever read on the Mudcat and with your permission, I plan to plagarise it to send it to a few choice people I know! BTW, Do your Ma and Pa know what a great son they have!? luvyakat |
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23 Jun 00 - 12:59 AM (#246312) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Kelida Max-- You are now my GOD. That's one of the most wonderful things I've ever read in my life. Mbo-- I don't think people are really desensitized--especially not by fiction or near fiction. If anything has the power to truly desensitize people, I think it's the news.
Anyway-- Peace--Keli |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:11 AM (#246322) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Yeah yeah yeah...I'll come over to your houses and spew obscenities at your 3 year old children, and we'll see if you tell me to shut up or let me have my free speech... |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:12 AM (#246323) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Or maybe just distrubute some porn at the local kindergarten...after all, sex is a part of life... |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:13 AM (#246324) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Amergin Sounds fine with me, Mbo. Or it would be if I had 3 year old kids. |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:15 AM (#246326) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy If you came over to my house, you'd get a hurley stick in the back of the neck. I've a right to freedom of expression as well, remember. But that has nothing to do with posting lyrics, has it? B. |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM (#246329) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Nope, but we're talking general censorship. The Hurley stick (or camogie if yer wish) is exactly what I would do. Some censorship IS good, believe it or not, people. And that hurley stick is a pretty convincing way to get folks to stop the filth. |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:20 AM (#246331) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Amergin Well, excuse me for offending your moral sensibilities here, Mbo, but it seems to me that you've been kind of an asshole lately. Is anything wrong? Amergin |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:21 AM (#246332) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Kelida Mbo--I've heard obscenities since as long as I can remember, and it hasn't damaged me overly much. Also, Mbo, porn was never intended for children. By it's very nature it's for adults. Also, I imagine you have to be at least past puberty to get anything out of porn. And how many kindergarten children would even know what they were looking at? How can a person be damaged by something if they don't know or understand it. By unrestricted free speech, I mean that people should have the right and opportunity to look at whatever they want. It doesn't mean that I think children should be viewing porn. And if someone doesn't want to see porn, they don't have to look at it or let their children look at it. Why does stuff like that offend people when they don't have to look at it? I personally don't look at porn, but if someone else wants to, that doesn't offend me. I always wonder how people can offended by the mere existence of something they don't personally use or see. Peace--Keli |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:32 AM (#246338) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: catspaw49 Ah, if nothin' else, I can send Michael (7) over to see you Meebo.....He'll be happy to show you his extensive vocabulary. He has learned where and when its not appropriate, but when one of our kids was acting like a complete jerk one night, Michael, then 3 1/2, turned and stared at her and said, "Fockin' asshole." Daddy's boy......had just the most perfect inflection and everything. Spaw |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:35 AM (#246341) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Kelida That's so beautiful, Spaw! Peace--Keliwipingatearfromhereye |
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23 Jun 00 - 01:52 AM (#246355) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: zonahobo While it's true that life is full of meanness, racism, hate, bad manners, etc., some of us actively seek to avoid that ... like spending time here where we can be inspired by finely worded arguements (not that I can make them)with well crafted language. I hope we can continue to choose this community as an escape from crass behavior. I wouldn't want it prohibited either. I just don't like to go out of my way to see trash. So far its been a pretty well kept community from my point of view. Keep up the 'good' work people!
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23 Jun 00 - 03:14 AM (#246376) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy And camogie is the ladies game, Emmbs; camán is the stick. But the analogy should not be lost: A simple case of cause and effect. Cause: Mbo comes round to attempt to increase my children's take on the world. Effect: He gets a clatter with the camán. Take away cause, and effect does not occur. If, on the other hand, generousity should overwhelm you, and should cause you to come a-callin', guitar in hand, with all the bawdy songs you'd like, the tae would be put on, the old skins would be put together, having an altogether different effect, and would lead to much harmony in the home. To all living things, sense comes gradually, grasshopper. B. |
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23 Jun 00 - 07:18 AM (#246416) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mooh Perhaps a topic for another thread but... Mbo, spewing obscenities at children does not constitute free speech, it constitutes assault. I was very disappointed to read your comment and hope you were trying to be sarcastic or ironic. I'm with Amergin, what's wrong lately? Peace, please. Mooh. |
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23 Jun 00 - 07:44 AM (#246430) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: McGrath of Harlow "What is folk?" - "Folk is Life with a better melody."
I knew there was a short answer, and now Max has given it to us.
Piosting warnings about lyrics is about as sensible as sticking a notice on a bottle saying "this will make you drunk". There are songs I'd be happy to censor, but I think Brendy's got the right technique there.
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23 Jun 00 - 08:11 AM (#246443) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Yes I'm trying to be and ironic and sarcastic, and show you that maybe your great proposals on what the world should be aren't always so great in every situation. And it's not the asshole, but what's connected to it that bothering me. |
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23 Jun 00 - 08:17 AM (#246449) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy Oh, is THAT what you were trying to do? Well, why didn't you say so!. Incidentally, what part, connected to your ass-hole, is bothering you, and, have you seen a dentist about it yet? B. |
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23 Jun 00 - 08:23 AM (#246450) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Jeri The more things one is offended by, the more power they give others to manipulate them. Big flashing neon sign saying "if you want to jerk my chain, distract me and halt communication, say '*&%@'." Think about it. Words are simply things used to express meaning. If the words are more important than the meaning, there's a problem. I've heard people be obscene and not use a single swear word. I've heard some who lace everthing they say with a liberal dose of obscenities, but who are saying something worth listening to. Of course, if I were offended by particular words, I may have completely ignored what they were saying and gone off on a tangent about their language. I would have stopped listening and simply reacted. No words are sacred, neither are they damning. The only power they have is what a listener chooses to grant them. Please note this is about hearing/reading. I don't cuss much myself, and I'm with Joe about there being some things I wouldn't post. I choose what to say and how to interpret what I hear, but everyone else gets to do the same. |
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23 Jun 00 - 08:24 AM (#246451) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Not a dentist, Brendy. And I HAVE, and the medicine only makes me more surly. But it's a chronic thing, so your pretty much gonna have to get used to it. |
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23 Jun 00 - 08:27 AM (#246454) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy Doesn't bother me at all, Emmbs, old son. It's your ass-hole I feel sorry for!! B. |
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23 Jun 00 - 10:23 AM (#246507) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: robroy Obscenity I can tolerate, bad spelling is a little worse but bad grammar, oy! oy!- Vomitus Vobiscum! |
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23 Jun 00 - 11:05 AM (#246529) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy Et cum spiritu tuo. B. |
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23 Jun 00 - 02:45 PM (#246656) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Bert robroy, it must be wonderful for you, being so perfect. Bert. |
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23 Jun 00 - 05:12 PM (#246709) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Richard Bridge Err - am I missing the plot a bit here. Some people want to exercise caution or more about sexual material. Others actively support some (but not other) songs about political violence and murder. Hundreds of folk songs are about a tradition of rape pillage murder and exploitation of the poor by the rich. And some Mudcatters have been much wigged and suspended for being personally insulting without touching on any of the above topics. If this were a film would someone suggest there was a continuity error? |
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23 Jun 00 - 05:16 PM (#246712) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy Depends who draws the line, and where they draw it. B. |
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23 Jun 00 - 05:35 PM (#246723) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Max My screenplay was in fact rejected by Hollywood executives, because they said that it wasn't realistic for Offensive Lyrics to stalk and threaten people and their families. Words on a page just weren't scary enough. |
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23 Jun 00 - 05:38 PM (#246724) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy BOO!!!Well, that was a bit of an anti-climax, wasn't itB. |
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23 Jun 00 - 08:10 PM (#246785) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Bill D not with the right font installed..... |
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23 Jun 00 - 08:26 PM (#246792) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: catspaw49 Oh I dunno Bill...........I thought it was pretty anti-climatic.........I seem to want a cigarette. Spaw |
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23 Jun 00 - 09:06 PM (#246803) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Brendy Thank you 'Spaw. Phew that was close!! B. |
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29 Jun 00 - 06:14 PM (#249468) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: barry Hey Bill is that who I think it is????????? Barry. |
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29 Jun 00 - 06:52 PM (#249483) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: GUEST,Roger in Baltimore I have posted some lyrics that I found offensive and have prefaced them with a warning that some others might be offended. I think those songs have a valid existance (i.e. they are part of life). I am appreciative when people say, "Hey, watch out, you're about to step in dog shit." That's a warning, it is not censorship. If I want, I can still step where ever I choose.
When others talk about the power of words that offend I have to agree. It does put the offended person under the power of others. Still, I think people have the right to choose to be offended. It is not my job to have everyone look at the world the way I look at the world. So, out of respect, I post a warning. I know I cannot exist without hurting some people's feelings. Yet, I don't believe that means I, in the name of freedom, should hurt people's feelings when I know that is what I'm doing. Certainly that is freedom, but I don't choose that type of freedom. If I do want to hurt people's feelings, than I just might make an effort to offend. Otherwise, I'll preface some postings with a warning. Roger in Baltimore |
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29 Jun 00 - 07:42 PM (#249509) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: GUEST,Bruce O. I've added a version of "The Highland Tinker" as a postscript to its parent, "Clout the Caldron", in Scarce Songs 1 on my website at www.erols.com/olsonw. Someone requested it on a thread here that I can't now find. There is no warning as to explict bawdy lyrics on my website, and I've never had a complaint in well over 2 years now, but I'm sure this note will make it so I draw some. My interest is historical, and songs as they were sung (and/or published) is the only true history, regardless of how some think the world should be or should have been. |
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29 Jun 00 - 07:50 PM (#249515) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: GUEST,Bruce O. I finally remembered a clue that enabled me to track down the thread. 'Tune Req. help required from Scotland'. |
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29 Jun 00 - 07:54 PM (#249518) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: bbelle Since I was raised by parents who never censored what I read, I don't find posting explicit lyrics offensive. I don't sing songs with sexually explicit lyrics, preferring instead clever innuendo, however, that doesn't mean I would listen. Life is life and sometimes there are no "polite" words to describe it ... moonchild |
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29 Jun 00 - 07:56 PM (#249519) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: GUEST I agree, labelling is not the same a censorship. Labelling can cut 2 ways. Go back to Joe's original observation about the @bawdy search in the songs. Forget the idea of a long disclaimer. Have some terms like bawdy, violent, racist, etc. in the first line. Then those who want to avoid them can and those looking for them can find them. |
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29 Jun 00 - 08:16 PM (#249534) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: bbelle Got to check my spelling before clicking on submit ... What I meant to say was ... "that doesn't mean I wouldn't listen." moonchild |
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30 Jun 00 - 01:59 PM (#249912) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: BlueJay The first time Katherine, my nine year old daughter visited the "Mudcat Kid's" section of this site, she surfed around a bit and soon found the lyrics to a song called "It's Only A Wee-Wee". Shows a little about human nature, I think. She laughed and laughed, saved it to disk and printed it. Even tried to sing it, though we haven't a clue as to the melody. While mildly anatomical, it really looks like a pretty good song about Adult preoccupation with genitals, and more broadly, male/female stereotyping. Some folks may not agree, but I didn't find it offensive, nor in need of a "warning". I'm sure the songs that kids make up on their own are a lot bawdier. Max said it best: The warning is inherent. If you want your kids to be totally insulated from anything potentially offensive, good luck. You'd better home school 'em, regulate their activities, (with like-minded folk), and above all, keep them away from folk music. Most other kinds of music as well. Thanks, BlueJay. (Rather have a frontal lobotomy than a censor in front o' me). |
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30 Jun 00 - 04:22 PM (#249960) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo Yo Bluej, I was homeschooled, so leave us alone!
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30 Jun 00 - 04:39 PM (#249971) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Mbo I got a great idea! Sing them "The Ballad of Kip Kinkel"! They're sure to love it! --Mbo |
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30 Jun 00 - 07:20 PM (#250049) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: dick greenhaus Gee- I never knew that "explicit" was a synonym for dirty.- |
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01 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM (#250194) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Joe Offer Aw, Greenhaus, you're just showing off! You're right, of course. I guess the People Who Make The Labels wanted to chose a word for objectionable things that might include more than just sex. And as long as we're talking about these things, I'd like to make an observation. Has anybody else noticed how so many recent movies have graphic depictions of vomit? Is that what we've come to? Sex and violence are no longer politically correct, so now we have vomit in movies. Well, the whole thing makes me gag. -Joe Offer- |
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01 Jul 00 - 07:24 PM (#250287) Subject: RE: Posting Explicit Lyrics From: Bradypus I posted these to another thread, but they probably belong here ...
These lyrics are explicit.
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