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23 Jul 00 - 01:15 PM (#263071) Subject: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: JedMarum A friend sent me an article written by Pat Metheny and posted on this site. Pat discussed his thoughts about Kenny G's musical skill, and the impact he has had on jazz. Pat also was quite outspoken about Kenny's use of Loius Armstrong's recording of "A Wonderful World" and the apparent sacrilege Kenny committed by overdubbing his own stylings on Louis's artwork. Metheny was quite incensed and had this to say: "but when Kenny g decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. he, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and callused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that louis armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. by disrespecting louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny g has created a new low point in modern culture -something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. " I have posted the entire thread here if you have an interest to pursue the matter a bit more. I wondered how Mudcatters feel about the subject. I'm not a big Kenny G fan, but don't have any dislike for him, either - and I'm not so sure Kenny has earned the full animosity Pat seems to hold for him ... |
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23 Jul 00 - 01:41 PM (#263078) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Mbo I like Kenny G, and I don't think it's at all his fault that people think his music is bland enough to use as elevator music. For me, his music defines my family & my 3 year stay in OKinawa, Japan. FEN (Far East Network, or as it is know to the english-speaking military on The Rock, Forced Entertainment Network) used Kenny G's songs as background music for island annoucements. "Songbird" was a classic...I can't hear it today withou thinking of Camp Courtney and our beloved Trash Beach, with it's beautiful seashells. Or hearing "Going Home" (Kenny's own composition, not the Dvorak rip-off) played when the MAC (now AMC) terminal flight schedule scrolled across the screen, and you longed for the day you could take The Freedom Bird back home (on the 366th day, God created the Freedom Bird). Or "The G-Bop" which has KILLER bass, that we used to blast in retaliation when our noisy neighbors would play their bassy "circus music". I'd never felt sound waves from a speaker before I hear that tune! Or hearing the duets with Peabo Bryson "By The Time This Night Is Over" and Aaron Neville "Ever If My Heart Would Break" as we drove through Kadena Air Base on the way to my guitar lessons that would ultimately pave the way to where I am at now. I think this guy is going WAY to far against Kenny. He probably is one of those kinds of people who hate electricity or any updating or folk or traditional music. After all, wasn't that same technique used for sure classics as Hank Williams Sr. & Jr.'s "Tear In My Beer" or the Beatles "reunion" songs "Free As A Bird" and "Real Love" (superbly produced by Jeff Lynne)? No tolerance, no tolerance at all, I say. But you know what kind of people these critics are. We have lots of them on Mudcat. Best thing to do is ignore than and love what YOU like. "Do your best, and hang the rest" as Sir A.C. Doyle said (my my sister). That's my 3 cents.
--Matt |
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23 Jul 00 - 02:08 PM (#263105) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: GUEST,Anna Can't stay awake long enough to listen to a whole piece through. I find it insipid and without substance. Reminds me of those endless clones of "Romance" novels. He even looks like the mindless twits portrayed on the covers. Did I mention that I don't much care for him? |
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23 Jul 00 - 02:14 PM (#263109) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Thomas the Rhymer I have long been a fan of Pat Metheny, though his jazz roots are over my head. To hear this escapade of musician bashing issue forth from his mouth, troubles me greatly. I have always enjoyed Pat's music for what he added of himself, and I always thought that his "jazz" was highly overrated and stuck-up. Coltrane wanna-be ad-infinitum. His albums of "noodling" over jazz great rhythm players are quite good examples of what he blames Kenny "G" for. You should hear what "Berkeley" students say... I have never been a fan of Mr. "G" and though I feel that many people make an example out of him, I just don't go there. I think that Pat is projecting a great deal of critisizm that is due (and probably been given already) to himself, and is suffering from the disparity that arrises from acadamic musical (un)appreciation. But that's a different issue, for another day. |
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23 Jul 00 - 02:24 PM (#263113) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Dee45 I too take some exception to Metheny's bashing of Kenny G. Not to start bashing Pat, but I have always found his style of jazz (much akin to Larry Coryell's playing) wholly boring, self indulgent and, saying absolutely nothing. It is like listening to a technician spout every nuance of arpegiated and scaled derivative, all fundamentally lacking in one main area -- communication. Music should "speak" to us. Not be an exercise in our aural stamina of being able to listen to a piece in it's entirety, without the temptation to hit the STOP button. Definitive jazz guitarists who truly speak when they play (IMHO) are people like Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Lee Ritenour, and others. Perhaps a more time spent listening to some of the above and even emulating their styles, would serve Pat and Larry better, but at this point they're probably too old and set in their ways to ever change and be open to new possibilities of creative interpretation. |
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23 Jul 00 - 03:49 PM (#263140) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Peter T. I know almost nothing about Metheny but I support any rant against using someone else's recorded voice who is dead and cannot complain to sing or play along with -- Tony Bennett (who I have always loved) did it with Billie Holiday, and my estimation of him dropped 100%. Natalie Cole should be ashamed. It is a despicable form of necrophiliac vampirism and someone should stick KennyG.s instrument in a useful portion of his anatomy. yours, Peter T. |
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23 Jul 00 - 04:21 PM (#263146) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Lucius I'm with you, Peter T. Undefendable, what some leeches will stoop to. Lucius |
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23 Jul 00 - 04:22 PM (#263149) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: JedMarum Thomas and Rawhide, I agree with both you. I'm not a big Kenny G fan, but I appreciate that he has captured a sound that appeals to many, and he obviously has a level of skill that is worthy of respect, despite the venom Pat has developed in response. I must admit I am not a Pat Metheny fan either, though I respect his skill. And while I understand the sentiment Peter T expresses, it is not one I share. The lovely piece Natilie did with her father's music was gift - a technology created "artificial insemination" (if you'll forgive the analogy) across genereations. I am certain that Nat would not only be proud of his daughter's effort, but would be pleased with the result. She did not change the original. She added a new thought to the old, and created a whole new piece. Andy Warhol and many other artists purposely build new pieces on top of old ones nad come up with new and interesting pices, some of which are well worthwhile in their own right. I believe Natilie's effort was such a piece. I am not so sure about the others mentioned (Kenny G's and Tony Bennett's). I haven't heard them, and would shy away from doing such a thing myself, ordinarily. |
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23 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM (#263198) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Mooh I agree with Peter T for the most part. I've had a peripheral appreciation for Pat M for years and still have a couple of lp's (remember lp's?) stored in a box somewhere. His musical ability takes a different form than what I usually listen to but I still like it. My jazz likes are more to Oscar Peterson. Anyway, P.M. is a musician and I'm not sure about Kenny G. It always concerns me that the Kenny G's of this world are playing, by music and persona, to a market, with no regard for personal or musical integrity. Perhaps P.M. spewed a bit of shit, but no more shit than the muzak shit of K.G. At least Metheny's music is honest. Just a guess...no minds will be changed here. Mooh. |
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23 Jul 00 - 07:08 PM (#263208) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Callie I share Pat Metheny's distaste (replace that word for whatever euphemism) for Kenny G. To start with, I don't like the music. It smacks of Muzak to me - devoid of soul and depth, highs and lows. His 'solos' are grossly insensitive and his arrangements are extremely limited in scope. Take-away music (I'll have fries with that). What is also unsettling is that he poses as a jazz musician. I haven't heard anything by him which is remotely connected with jazz. And a lot of people base ideas they have (or don't have) about jazz on hearing him play, because he's popular. Maybe the guy does have skill and musicality, but it sure don't come out in his recordings. I didn't know he'd done the recording with Louis A. That's just a joke. He's making out he's a jazz player and worthy of playing with the best. I'm not a fan of all of Metheny's work, but he's an amazing player and arranger. The sort of music heplays requires years of study and practice. He knows what he's doing, and why. He respects the tradition he has come from. (I have been playing jazz saxophone for 12 years and haven't even scratched the surface. When I hear metheny, I hear accomplishment and someone who has put the hours in. When I hear Kenny I just want to puke!) They took to playing Kenny G at the pub where a bunch of us go post-rehearsal. My lovely lovely boy would always ask the staff to change the music - he knows how much the sound of kenny irks me. This is all just personal of course. All power to folks like Mbo who enjoy Kenny's music. We're all different, eh? Callie |
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24 Jul 00 - 10:23 AM (#263483) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: GUEST,The Invisible Blazoona Incredible! I've always regarded Metheny as the guitar playing equivalent of Kenny G. These guys are jazzmen like I'm a racehorse |
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24 Jul 00 - 12:00 PM (#263566) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Jed at Work I suspect Pat would be highly insulted by your opinion, Blazoona. I must admit I'm a little surprised by the vehemence of Pat's response. Why is it so important?? ;-) |
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24 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM (#263586) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: catspaw49 I was wondering the same thing Jed.......and I think its the jazz equivalent of "What is Folk?" debate. Spaw |
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24 Jul 00 - 12:34 PM (#263598) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: DebC I have no opinions on Kenny G's or Pat Matheny as musicians. But I did hear Kenny G's "A Wonderful World" and was pretty disgusted by it. I have only heard it once and hope that I never hear it again. Deb |
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24 Jul 00 - 02:20 PM (#263675) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Whistle Stop Isn't it amazing that, with all the incredible music Louis Armstrong made and recorded, just about the only things that get played are "Wonderful World" and "Hello Dolly"? Although I think Pat's comments were kind of extreme, I generally agree with the sentiment. Kenny G should make his own music, which can then rise and fall on its own merits. And he should leave Armstrong's music alone. But I think it speaks volumes that, out of all the choices he had, he picked "Wonderful World" to screw around with. |
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24 Jul 00 - 03:03 PM (#263703) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Peter T. I respect your opinion Jed, but I don't see Natalie Cole's version as a gift -- I could see her singing along in the privacy of her own room, but it is really ghoulish to do this to your own dead father and sell records doing it. We cannot know if he would have approved or not -- given his impeccable taste, I suspect he would have been conflicted -- but at least he would have been around. The comparison with art is complicated: people have been using reproductions of art and playing with it for a long time, but the human voice is a different category: it is only partially an artefact (a work of art) -- it is (to become spiritual for a second) a more intimate form of thievery simply because of recording: you are not stealing the final work of art, you are stealing something of the person because the voice embodies the interpretation as it happens. Sticking Fred Astaire into a vaccum cleaner commercial was another violation. just old fashioned I guess. yours, Peter T. |
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24 Jul 00 - 05:33 PM (#263836) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Jed at Work Peter T - these are very interesting thoughts. I believe that sticking Fred Astaire into a vaccum cleaner ad was in bad taste ... likewise John Wayne in the beer ads, etc ... and I like your comment about the human voice being part artifact (the recording) and spiritual - the life/air within me becomes sacred through the thoughts I express in word/song - I have always found that notion appealing. But in part, that is why I saw Natalie's as a gift - she was able to commune in song with her father - whose spirit had been preserved in recording. I don't feel this was about other such works I've heard - the ads we discussed, the Hank Williams recordings, etc ... but Nat and Natalie clicked with me. I sensed a spiritual connection. And the 'artificail' insemination comment I used earlier was alluding to the similar medical process we use today ... preserving the semen of your doomed spouse in order to produce his child years after his death. This would-be unnatural practice is a real possibility for many humans today ... can be a very reasonable thing to do (I presume) and is analogous, to my way of thinking, to what Natalie has done with that recording. |
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24 Jul 00 - 05:36 PM (#263838) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Mbo I thought the Fred Astaire & John Wayne commercials were funny. |
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24 Jul 00 - 05:39 PM (#263840) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Jed at Work LOL at MBO - I guess I felt a little bit that way, too ... but when I thought about it, I realized it was something I would have chosen not to do. |
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24 Jul 00 - 06:24 PM (#263872) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Lonesome EJ Doesn't Kenny G sell more CDs than Pat Metheny? That would probably explain it. "I'm terrific, he sucks, and yet....they like him better!" |
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24 Jul 00 - 06:34 PM (#263881) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Peter T. Boy, Neil Diamond and Fred Astaire with a vacuum cleaner in one day, Mbo. Where is Catspaw and a sack of horse manure when you need it? To be crude, Jed, Nat King Cole's children and his records were his seed. It is not the same as preserving your semen in hopes that a child will come of it after you are gone. If she sang "Unforgettable" all by herself, it would probably have been a minor hit. And I have no objection to Natalie Cole doing what she wants with her father's voice in private. It was (a) selling it as a record; and (b) essentially launching her own career (she was zero before that, and has mostly returned to zero, because she is frankly a mediocre singer) using her father's name as a launching pad. History is full of people living off of their parent's reputation, but this is really crummy. I prefer "Something Stupid" and that was something pretty stupid. yours, Peter T. |
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24 Jul 00 - 06:40 PM (#263885) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: catspaw49 Peter!!! Got a bad rash? You're really cookin' on this one bro! Wanna' take a shot at Hank Williams and Junior? Just let me get out of the way...........OK, there ya' go.....Have at it! Spaw |
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24 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM (#263893) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: Mbo Peter, "I fart in your general direction..." --Mbo is not amused. |
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24 Jul 00 - 06:47 PM (#263894) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: catspaw49 ADDITIONALLY......as a special favor for my friend Peter from his "Thought" thread, let me re-read this thread and see what it does for my gas ................... uh,huh ...................... geeziz................. yeah,right ....................... awferchrissakes ...................... oy .................. Yeah, that'll do it.... BBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPPP........ahhhhh............(whiff) ...............yeah, that's a winner alright....biggun.... Spaw |
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15 Jan 01 - 04:03 PM (#375050) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: GUEST,Mugsy Did anyone ever see that bit on Saturday night live where Norm MacDonald made fun of the "money in the bank" opinions of Larry King? ergo: Pat Metheney rallying against the likes of Kenny G. What a safe bet this is... sheesh. Musically speaking, Kenny G's stuff is what it is. Whatever amount of records he sells is due to the fact that number of people like what he gives. No more, no less. Their frame of reference matches his delivery. What this is really about is the nerve of one musician, speaking out against another. Metheny, mind your own business. If this is terribly wrong, it will fall down by its own lack of merit. You're in no position to judge artistic merit on behalf of others. By the way, Pat, a few left hand pinky exercises should help your technique.
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16 Jan 01 - 01:53 PM (#375467) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: LR Mole I agree: sounds like dollar envy to me. People grow out that, or get paid more. Music, in general, is too important to be involved in some dreary amount-of-appreciation runoff. Who performs worship more quickly than whom? |
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16 Jan 01 - 03:31 PM (#375560) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: JedMarum ha ha, Mole. What brought this old thread back to the surface? |
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16 Jan 01 - 03:33 PM (#375562) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton I haven't heard much of Kenny G but I think that both he and Louis were popular artists. Kenny G may have done an overdub on Louis's "Wonderful World" but the latter was a pop song, not a jazz classic. Now if Kenny G had decided to re-record the West End Blues or Heebie Jeebies, that might be a different issue. But one pop performance on top of another doesn't seem much to get het up over. BTW, one of Louis's favorite bands was reputed to be Guy Lombardo. If Louis were to record an overdub with Lombardo's band, would anybody be upset? Pat Metheny is decrying the lack of respect given to jazz today by the general public. That may be justified but Kenny G. is a popular artist. Pat Metheny would not like the popular music mixed with jazz apparently? Or is it that Pat Metheny would like some of those popular accolades? When Louis was at the height of his jazz career, he wasn't yet a popular artist. Maybe Pat Metheny could do an overdub on "Hello Dolly" and make a little splash in the pop market. :) Frank |
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16 Jan 01 - 03:39 PM (#375568) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: mousethief Two thoughts:
1. Metheny's whine is made from sour grapes Alex |
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16 Jan 01 - 05:49 PM (#375677) Subject: RE: Metheny speaks about Kenny G From: GUEST,Blind desert pete Peter T. says it all. to my ears, all Kenny G can do is hold a long note, he sure couldnt hold louis's horn case. |