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23 Aug 00 - 04:34 PM (#283436) Subject: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Can we have some mudcat accounts please? I am (for my own reasons) posting this thread as a 'guest' If you have a problem with that, fair enough, don't read any further. For those who are still reading, I'd like to ask a question, put forward a thought or whatever. The 'mudcat' (aka Max) has occasionally asked for money, and lots of good people have contributed in various ways. I've yet to hear how that money was spent. I have never given any money to the mudcat. Why not? For the simple reason that I don't know what I'm paying for. A while ago, there was a push to get enough money to reinstate the 'super search' and it happened. Great. At the moment, the online searching capabilaties of the DT are, lets be honest, woefully poor. I'd be more than happy to contribute anything that I could, if I knew that it'd make a difference. I don't. Let me know what the mudcat needs, let me know how much it will cost to implement, give me some idea of how my money will be spent, and I'll contribute. That's all
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23 Aug 00 - 04:42 PM (#283443) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: MMario 1) I highly doubt that the contributions have come anywhere close to the operating costs of the mudcat RADIO show, let alone the MudCat. 2) to describe the online searching capabilities of the DT and Forum as "woefully poor" is ridiculous. They aren't as good as we woul;d like, but given familiarity with the various systems you can find just about anything. or god forbid, you could ask for help. 3) the answers to your questions are in the forum. They have been there for some time. |
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23 Aug 00 - 04:49 PM (#283445) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Bert It cost at least $50,000 for that last Mudcat upgrade alone. As far as I know, contributions ahave not yet reached a tenth of that figure. Bert. |
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23 Aug 00 - 04:50 PM (#283446) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Joe Offer I suppose that's a legitimate request, but it all sounds so formal. I think I've given a couple hundred bucks to Mudcat in the three years I've been here. I figure it's just a drop in the bucket, something to help Max out with the expenses. I trust Max to use it wisely, and I don't care to ask him how he spent it. If he used it for beer money, that's OK with me. I've gotten more than two hundred bucks worth of pleasure out of Mudcat. If it comes to the point where it appears that Mudcat is primarily supported by the contributions of members and others, then I think there should be some system of accounting. Right now, it's quite obvious to me that Mudcat is paid for by Max, with a bit of help from donors. That being the case, I don't see a need for setting up a system of accounting, with all the hassle and possible animosity connected with that. -Joe Offer- |
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23 Aug 00 - 04:55 PM (#283448) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Guest, as far as I recall, the monies collected were towards upgrading the system, of which consists of at LEAST 3 complete systems. Any money contributes to the general operation and maintenance of this system. The amounts, as Mmario points out, wouldn't maintain even the yearly connection costs, as I understand it. It's mostly a thankless job that Max keeps it going, for which I am eternally grateful. There is other work in maintaining software, which seems to have a problem with SuperSearch right now. I know Joe Offer has been talking to Max on it, and I'm sure it would be rectified shortly. Please elaborate on the "woefully poor" comment. I also would like to hear what you feel needs improvement. I feel the "SuperSearch" is quite useful since it searches the entire database, of roughly 5000? or more song lyrics, PLUS the hundreds of K-bytes of messages, of which an increasing number of them are the BS ones. As for an account, certainly you can have an accounting, which is what I suspect you refer to. If you have contributed in the past, and aren't satisfied with how the money was spent, I sure we can find some way to refund you that amount. |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM (#283452) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 Like Joe, if I look back at the money I've given, whether it was for a set of training wheels, matching bucks for the Moustache tuner thingy, of a few outright ones, I have coughed up a few hundred. And as far as I'm concerned, if Max wants to use it buy toilet paper, condoms, beer, or upgrade stuff, I could care less. its a drop in the bucket compared to the operating costs and as long as the joint is here, I'm satisfied. Mario has detailed some answers for you and if you are uncomfortable givig a few bucks here and there without a "proper accounting".....so be it. I don't ask my Gas or Electric companies or my ISP for that matter for an accounting.....I just expect service! Mudcat gives me far more than I could ever give in bucks.....so I figure I'm way ahead. Spaw |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:05 PM (#283456) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST As always, where my face, and tone of voice can't be seen, i've been misunderstood. All I'm trying to say is that i'd be far more likely to contribue if I knew what my money was going to buy - and I'm certain that i'm not alone in that bert, if max has spent $45 000 of his own money on the upgrade (which i don't believe for a second) then more fool him |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:11 PM (#283460) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 Okay....so you're misunderstood.........I'm pissed and I don't get that way often!!!!!!! Nobody demands you be here or give any money to be here do they? Max has made a lot of improvements in the past several years and the search stuff works fine if you use it properly.....Could it be better.....Sure and maybe down the road it will. But whatever goes on, its up to Max to do and whether or not you want to support is is your problem and anyone else's who demands to know where each dime is going. GEEZIZ!!!!!! I bet you Sewer company loves you don't they? Are you down there checking where the shit is going too???? Have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up. This is ridiculous! Spaw |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:15 PM (#283463) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Jon Freeman Guest, does it really matter to you whether your donation would buy/contibute towards a specific item or simply to contribute towards the daily running of this forum? Surely Max can be trusted to allocate the money where it is most needed without having to account for where it was spent or do you want something like a park bench with your name on? Jon |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:17 PM (#283464) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: CarolC So don't contribute. There are plenty of us who get enough out of this site to not care whether or not we know exactly what "that man behind the curtain" is doing or not doing. Respectfully, Carol |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:25 PM (#283469) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Before you pour your vitriol on me, please refresh the lost Pete Seeger Banjo thread. In that case, lots of you cursed the 'lowlife jerk' who'd apparently stolen the instrument, and if I remember correctly wanted to hang him. Guess what, you were all wrong... All I was trying to ask by starting this thread, was to understand where my money might be going, and how any contribution might be used. Jeeezzz, some of you people are really up tight
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23 Aug 00 - 05:29 PM (#283473) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: dwditty Ditto from Ditty. The end result is we have a really wonderful place to gather. The database, the forum, hearme, the radio show, and whatever else may be coming down the pike from Max, could easily stand on their own as fantastic sites. Put together, it's incredible, and I know I am not alone when I say that I love Mudcat. So, to reiterate, "Who cares where the money goes?" First of all, I doubt if more than a piddling has been donated compared to the cost. Anyone who has contributed is getting a terrific return. The rest, just say thank you and enjoy it. dw |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:33 PM (#283475) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Big Mick GUEST, take a pill or something. Your veneer is very thin, and it doesn't take a genius to figure you out. You seek to create an issue where there is none. Evidence of this does not lie in your request, which I understand, even if I don't share the concern. Evidence of your true intent lies in your reaction. No one has gotten "really up tight". One of two got mildly perturbed. Most just said, and I concur, that it isn't important to them. I believe you are seeking to create an issue where there is none. And your tactic is transparent. Just go back to posting on the music threads, and I look forward to seeing you there. Mick |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:34 PM (#283477) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Bert You said...As always, where my face, and tone of voice can't be seen, i've been misunderstood... You're bloody NAME can't be seen either. If you wan't any more information, tell us who you are. I'm BERT!!! |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:37 PM (#283483) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST I'm obviosly being totally misunderstood here, so I'll make this my last post on this thread. If I knew that the mudcat needed a new server, why, and how much it was going to cost, I'd be more than happy to help. When I have no idea, and any money I might contribute goes into a virtual vacuum, I have less inclination to help. Surely this view makes sense to someone? |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:38 PM (#283485) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,A Nicer Guest To the not-so-nice Guest: Unless you have been personally solicited by Max, you are under no obligation to donate ANYTHING. As my astute colleagues, above, have stated, many of us receive far more enjoyment from this site, than could ever be redeemed or expressed in monetary units. If you do not feel this way or have not experienced the upgrades that have occurred over the past three and one/half years, then you are blind, or more nicely put, simply unawares. I'm sure there are mudcatters who simply cannot afford to send a donation, but they contribute in other ways, such as, helping newcomers to the site or researching an answer for a question. We consider this as much of a donation as sending a check. Have you given up your personal time to help a fellow mudcatter? If you answer is "no," then everything said in this thread is probably falling on deaf ears. So, stay if you like; go if you don't like. The Mudcat Cafe will survive with or without you, however, most mudcatters feel that losing "someone" is sad. It is your decision. |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:45 PM (#283488) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: CarolC First Guest. Here's a suggestion. Send a PM to Max and ask him what he needs, equipment wise. If he tells you about something that is in a price range that you can consider, then buy it for him and give it to him. Or, you can contribute to the utility expenses by sending money directly to the utility company on behalf of the Mudcat. If you really want to make a financial contribution, I'm sure you can find a way that won't make you feel uncomfortable. Respectfully, Carol |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:46 PM (#283489) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Ed Pellow I'm going to stick my neck out and say that 'guest' actually has a point. I only ever give to charity collectors in the street, when I have a fair idea where the money will go. I don't see 'guest's' point as being any different from that. Ed |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:47 PM (#283492) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Áine Shame on the lot of you for letting yet another anonymous troll wind you up and/or get your goat. Now, instead of typing in a response to this person, and therefore taking up yet more space on the server(s) that Max has to support out of his own pocket, if you can afford it, take out your checkbook, write a check, and put it in the mail to Max right now. There'll be no good done in responding anymore to this obvious flamebait. And to those who can only afford to support the Mudcat by helping others, good on you, too. In other words, put your money and/or time and knowledge where your mouth is. And we'll all be the better for it, even the anonymous guest, although he/she/it probably will never realize it. -- Áine |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:52 PM (#283493) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: DougR Guest: The Mudcat is not a public corporation. There is no requirement to publish a financial statement. I have made modest donations to the Mudcat and wouldn't dream of asking Max for an accounting. I agree with Joe Offer. The pleasure I receive from the Mudcat is well worth my sending a few bucks from time to time. Right, Spaw, if Max squanders the money on spirits, wild women (or maybe not so wild) and condoms, why not? Just be carefull, Max, those things have been known to leak, and you could end up with a little Max. If you think the Mudcat is expensive, and worrysome, and oh you know ... DougR |
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23 Aug 00 - 05:58 PM (#283496) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Night Owl Guest...not sure here if I understand your difficulty conceptualizing Mudcats. My "knee-jerk" reaction to your first post was to suggest you send in a check, for a year's supply of aspirin for Max. After reading your second post, I choose to believe your question is sincere. THEORETICALLY I think you're right..professional fundraising is usually more successful if there's a specific item/goal to purchase. If that is your background, I assume Max et. al. have a wish list. Maybe if you sent a personal message, letting Max know how much you wish to contribute, a specific item could be purchased for that amount. Further, if you do have a fundraising background, perhaps you could give us some more specifics. It's difficult, but I'm assuming your comments to Bert where a clumsy way of saying YOU would never spend that amout of $$ on preserving and sharing music. |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:00 PM (#283498) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Jeri I do think this was a wind-up, but just to try logic... If something is going to be needed for Mudcat next year, and it's going to take that long to save a 10th of the money needed, how is Max or anyone going to predict what that is, short of "hardware and software upgrades?" If he manages to save money, fine. If he needs it now, he's not going to get enough to make a difference - not that it helps all that much even in the long run. |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:02 PM (#283501) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST I really do want to pull my hair out at times here. Aine thinks that I'm another intoloper. She is so, so wrong. All I am trying to say is that the Mudcat might get more financial contributions if we knew what we were contributing to. If that is so wrong... Well make your own decision
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23 Aug 00 - 06:05 PM (#283505) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: CarolC Guest, did you see my second post to this thread? I think it adequately addresses your point. Carol |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:09 PM (#283507) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: DougR Night Owl: I agree with you up to a point (and I am a professional fund raiser). Many donors prefer to donate to a specific thing or activity but what may be needed most might be operating expenses. Many donors don't like to give to OE because they feel they can't "see" what their money was used for, but they are very necessary. I suspect Max would accept donations for specific things but also might welcome funds to use at his discretion. That's the basis on which I send donations anyway. DougR |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:28 PM (#283526) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Bert You are not TOTALLY misunderstood. Many of us can clearly see what you are. |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:40 PM (#283532) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 I can bert!!! It maybe flame or it maybe question, but the point is the same. As to what the fockin' pissant needledick who started this thread is .... Well, my vote would be for -- RAT BASTARD OF THE WEEK Take your sanctimonious attitude and your fockin' worthless opinions and stick 'em in your tight ass with a lump of coal. In 24 hours you could have a diamond, you worthless fockin' asswipe. Spaw |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:49 PM (#283537) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: kendall What are you getting for your money? You get to have your say on this forum thats what. Max is very reluctant to ask for donations for a number of reasons, and, you just added one to the list. All I know is, he has done an outstanding job on this web site, and I, among others, are very grateful. I will continue to send donations to him to help support what I am enjoying right now! |
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23 Aug 00 - 06:49 PM (#283539) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Joe Offer I think CarolC's comment was very wise, and I'd like to repeat it: Here's a suggestion. Send a PM to Max and ask him what he needs, equipment wise. If he tells you about something that is in a price range that you can consider, then buy it for him and give it to him. Or, you can contribute to the utility expenses by sending money directly to the utility company on behalf of the Mudcat. If you really want to make a financial contribution, I'm sure you can find a way that won't make you feel uncomfortable.There have been times when some sort of upgrade was needed, and Max has told us it would cost such-and-such an amount. Generally, though, I think most of us feel comfortable just sending Max some money now and then to help defray his costs. Max does this mostly for fun, but I suppose he learns a bit here and there from his experiments with the 'Cat, and he probably makes use of that learning in his business, Onstagemedia. I've worked with volunteer organizations all my life. As much as possible, I've avoided fundraising, and I've often paid for activities myself instead of resorting to fundraising. It's a royal pain to try to account for funds in any volunteer organization. Whenever you get formal enough that you start collecting money and accounting for funds, there's always suspicion and ill will that arises. I think we're better off to stay where we are, although I think it would be nice if we would all throw a little more beer money Max's way. I think we're much better off if we think of Max as an Enlightened Despot, a Benevolent Dictator. Throw a little more money at him, and keep him in a good mood. -Joe Offer- |
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23 Aug 00 - 07:34 PM (#283556) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: dwditty Guest, don't call me Shirley! Here's an idea. Why don't we all send some money to Max (Mudcat), and we can all claim credit for whatever it is used for. (With a smirk, but I like this idea. Me first.) dw |
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23 Aug 00 - 07:37 PM (#283558) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Banjer All I was trying to ask by starting this thread, was to understand where my money might be going, and how any contribution might be used. Your money is going to the address to which you send it, and any contribution is used to keep this site going. End of story!! Catspaw has already popped his cork, I ain't far behind. We had a neighbor like you one time. She didn't like how we parked our vehicles on our own property, she protested when we painted our house because she didn't think an offwhite was acceptable when others around us were earth tones, our shrubbery didn't meet her approval. You sound like her. Never happy with anything, always going out of your way to bitch about something. I have made several contributions to Max, no earthshaking amount but something I could afford. I am happy with my decisions, may you be happy with what ever you decide to do! I am BANJER....I am not afraid to use my name to state my opinions. |
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23 Aug 00 - 07:42 PM (#283565) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: kendall I'd love to have 'spaw for a neighbor. |
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23 Aug 00 - 07:43 PM (#283566) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: dwditty Ah yes, good fences make... dw |
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23 Aug 00 - 07:47 PM (#283571) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Banjer Only if these good neighbors remain on their own sides of them.... |
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23 Aug 00 - 07:49 PM (#283575) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: dwditty I've got a problem. I just made a small donation and it says my credit card statement will say Onstage Media. I just know my wife will think it's a strip club. Oh well, I've got a couple of weeks to come up with a story. |
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23 Aug 00 - 08:16 PM (#283592) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Giac For godsake, GUEST, get a grip. Can't you see where the money goes? We have an unbelievable resource literally at our fingertips -- for free. People who are able contribute what they can. I for one am very grateful to Max, et al (no comments, Spaw), for what must be a very costly and frustrating endeavor. Giac |
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23 Aug 00 - 08:39 PM (#283608) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: TonyK Anonymous passive-aggressive button-pusher. "I came here for an arguement" "no you didn't" "Yes I did" "No you didn't" I don't have to play unless I want to. I usually lose when I do. |
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23 Aug 00 - 09:08 PM (#283635) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Big Mick Let's turn this positive. How about everyone who posted here agreeing to pop a check in the mail. One is on the way, Max. I am overdue for a contribution anyway. Use it for anything you want except a donation to Dubya or the Republican Party...........LOL. Mick |
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23 Aug 00 - 09:17 PM (#283640) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Jon Freeman Not me Mick, I've rarely got any money and I have just gone from being unemployed to student for a while... I try to do what "A nicer guest" suggests but that is my lot. Jon |
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23 Aug 00 - 09:21 PM (#283648) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Big Mick Hey Jon, you don't need to explain. I have always seen you as one of the most decent, helpful people here. There is no need for you to bare the laundry. Good luck on the studies, and thanks for all you do to be a helpful Mudcatter. Mick |
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23 Aug 00 - 09:49 PM (#283674) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Joe Offer Still, as you can see, that was really cheap beer Max was drinking tonight. We need to raise his standard of drinking... Can somebody send him some home brew? -Joe Offer- |
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23 Aug 00 - 09:59 PM (#283681) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: MMario JOn - time and talent are worth money - and gad knows you've contributed wads of time and talent! |
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23 Aug 00 - 10:19 PM (#283689) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 Re: Jon Freeman---- I said it tonight in chat and I'll repeat it here.......... Many of us have come to really enjoy the HearMe song circles. Those wouldn't be happening had Jon not taken the project on and worked through the details. That is payment enough by my thinking for anyone to have made. Thanks again Jon. Max also brought up a good point on the show. This place is about folk and blues and keeping traditions alive and well. So when you donate time to a school or give an old instrument to a young kid to get them going, or give away a lesson or two, or play at the old folks home, or for 'Special' kids....YOU are donating to the Mudcat. Very profound and great vision for a young little pissant like Max to have. But its true. Spaw |
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23 Aug 00 - 10:27 PM (#283695) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: SINSULL I have an accounting: 1.Two hours average per day (I am on at work a lot) on the Forum and Digitrad. 2.Met more people of similar interests in three months than a year membership in an an on-line social club. They provided mostly mass murderers and misogynists. 3.Unlimited access to lyrics I previously could only get from a series of aged relatives. And the ranks are thinning. 4. An opportunity to sing anything I want on Hearme. Someone was actually pleased to hear "Boston Burglar". I never sang for anyone before. 5. Selfless expertise from musicians, computer geeks, and would be social workers who care. 6. The encouragement I needed to buy an instrument and learn to play. I have spent less on the 'Cat than I my daily coffee. Thank you guest. You made me aware that it is time to send in another donation. Mary |
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23 Aug 00 - 10:37 PM (#283701) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Jon Freeman I missed Max saying that on MCR but that is a great vision! Jon |
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23 Aug 00 - 10:49 PM (#283711) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Big Mick Guest,I am sorry for my rude remarks. I do believe you have a right to express yourself as you wish in this forum. Nothing you have said has been rude! Mick did NOT make this posting - Bert |
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23 Aug 00 - 11:12 PM (#283722) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 ........uh, lose your cookie all of a sudden Mick? Or has this been posted from another part of the country? Spaw |
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23 Aug 00 - 11:42 PM (#283739) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: SeanM Lazy, lazy Fake "Guest, Big Mick". Study your targets. The least you could have done is made reference to Allison or some such. *sigh* Parody is SUCH a lost art these days. Hey, how 'bout we finish this entire thing with "Give however much you are comfortable with, be it money, time spent answering questions, listening to the Mudcat Radio, participating in HearMe or what have you". Take only joy, leave only what you'd have others leave for you. M |
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24 Aug 00 - 12:19 AM (#283755) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: katlaughing Nice try, Sean, but I have to mention, since Joe put out a call for home brew that MY SON TOOK FOURTH PLACE IN THE KENTUCKY STATE FAIR HOME BREW CONTEST ON HIS FIRST TRY EVER!!! proudMamaKat |
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24 Aug 00 - 01:02 AM (#283797) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Seamus Kennedy I subscribe because it's great value for my dollar. There's fine music conversation, with a couple of old-fart resident curmudgeons, some very nice people with helpful suggestions, a couple of opinionated young folks who remind me of my own kids, serious musicians who share their expertise, and a shitload of song lyrics. You won't get that with a magazine subscription. Plus, I get to see my name in print. All the best. Seamus |
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24 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM (#283820) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Callie Wow - some folks sure have forgotten to take their medication this morning! Guest was only asking a polite question. Guest, the last time a 'fundraising' took place, the target was $50,000 to upgrade something or other, the name of which eludes me because I'm not very computer literate. (and this is all from memory - but that was the figure mentioned I think). I chose to contribute because I have benefitted from Mudcat in more ways than I can count, and it seems obvious to me that it is being run on the smell of an oily rag. The people who contribute to making the the best site in cyberspace put so many hours into maintaining the site, and with such goodwill, that I have no doubts at all of their integrity. I agree with you that targets and figures could be a good way of encouraging more people to contribute, and feeling a sense of achievement that the targets are closer to being met. At the same time, I don't feel strongly enough about this to stop contributing if those targets aren't stated. peace to you all, and thanks to all the people who keep this place open every day. Callie |
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24 Aug 00 - 02:23 AM (#283837) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: John in Brisbane Nice bunch of people here, but your current manners are deplorable. I'm ashamed of your behaviour - congratulations to Mick for having the sense to draw breath and the guts to apologise. Sadly, John |
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24 Aug 00 - 10:13 AM (#283974) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Big Mick Well John, you are mistaken. This cretin confirmed what I said. She is trying to create an issue. And s/he appropriated my identity to do it. I did not apologize as I did not say anything that required that. I am not afraid to apologize as a search on my postings will demonstrate. But this is one of these subspecies that commits one of what I consider to be unpardonable sins. They not only hide behind the GUEST identity, but they use others identities. There can be only one reason they do this. And it has to do with their intent. They are cowardly, lack character and honor, and think it is OK to try and achieve their ends through whatever means. Why? Who knows, maybe unresolved Oedipal issues. That is for other, more learned individuals to resolve. But to bring this back around to where it started. As I stated before, I understand the original comment and question. I just don't happen to feel it is necessary. One day formal fundraising may be required. Then things will change. But as slick as this place is, it is still Max's hobby, with a secondary function that it provides him with a place to experiment with things that he can use at Onstage Media. That is probably how he justifies it. And while I understand the question, I think I must also point out that I think I understand your motive. If you had just asked the question, I would have believed you to just be a person with an opinion. And as such I would have treated you differently. But the way you reacted so quickly and started attacking so fast leads me to believe that you intended to create an issue as part of an ongoing attempt to attack Max and recreate the Mudcat as you would like it to be. If you would care to discuss this and convince me otherwise, why don't you send me a PM? I assure you that I will not share your identity as I consider that to be the other unpardonable sin. When two parties share PERSONAL MESSAGES, they are just that. Personal. To me, posting the contents of personal messages without the permission of the posters.........Or appropriating the identity of another should be cause for banishment. And if Max doesn't agree, that is his prerogative. But I will attack you for violating either of these rules. Mick |
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24 Aug 00 - 03:14 PM (#284262) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: wysiwyg Well, gee, we have had fights over the other things people hold dear, now it's money. D'ya think maybe people have FEELINGS about MONEY that make it hard to discuss it rationally???!!!!!!????? Anyone learn anything useful from this one? ~S~ |
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24 Aug 00 - 03:48 PM (#284289) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: SINSULL Praise< My response to this was straightforward and honest. I am not fighting with anyone. I honestly don't know or care if the Guest who started this thread is simply asking a question or rattling chains. Rationally, I don't expect, want, need, request or anything else an accounting from Max about how he spends the money donated by members. I have never been asked for a donation other than through the "Support The Mudcat" link above or when another member has raised the issue. Agreed, some have come to Max's defense because they "smell a rat". I don't blame Guest for asking for or for his/her unwillingness to give money without an accounting. I also don't blame those who felt they had to speak up on Max's behalf. There seems to be a tiresome complaint that guests are being treated badly. Surely the title Guest doesn't carry with it the requirement that I agree with whatever Guest says or be accused of being exclusionist or belligerent? Or have I gone off the deep end and completely misunderstood you? Love you Praise. Mary |
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24 Aug 00 - 03:50 PM (#284292) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: The Shambles Yes. |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:01 PM (#284310) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: kendall I contribute, and, I get my moneys worth. What else is there? Max and I dont agree on music, as a rule, but if you attack him or his integrity, there will be a line to kick your ass. It's that simple. |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:08 PM (#284325) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: The Shambles Sorry that was YES to. Anyone learn anything useful from this one? |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:13 PM (#284328) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: kendall Yes, to those who agree with the original post, "What do you want for nothing? a refund? |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:13 PM (#284329) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: dwditty There you go with your sugar coating again, Kendall. I take it the line forms at the rear? |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:17 PM (#284335) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 Praise, I do understand what you are saying.....but this was not about money and Kendall has hit the nail squarely on the head. In this case, I was the first in line to kick ass. My button, if you will, is trust and loyalty to friends when integrity is attacked. So I do see your point of course, but I probably learned nothing. As to the identity of this person.......Well it was obvious that it was a member and within a few postings I was reasonably convinced who it was and a few others seem to agree. The "Guest Big Mick" pretty well nailed it down though. Very sad as this is a talented individual and used to be a lot of fun too............... Since Jeri brought it up awhile back, I have responded to Guests with trust that they are asking legitimate questions and try to ignore the blatantly obvious flamers and trolls. This was no guest, but a member trying to stir it up.....and with the angle they chose to take, I would commit the same attack again. The issue is friendship and loyalty.....and integrity. Spaw |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:19 PM (#284337) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Groucho Marxist (inactive) I'm new here so please excuse me if I'm stepping on any toes. I assume from the ".org" designation that Mudcat is a non-profit organization. Perhaps I'm wrong about that assumption. I work for a non-profit and we're legally required to keep books with annual audited statements available to anyone who wants to see them. The question at the top of this thread did not seem hostile to my reading. I don't understand the anger. Groucho |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM (#284356) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: The Shambles I have no idea who this particular guest maybe and I don't really care.
All of this strong reaction to the post is largely due to speculation as to who the poster may be and what their motives may be.
Instead of feeding this paranoia, would it not be better address the points made or just to ignore them?
These questions are best left to Max to address or ignore. I seem to remember this very same situation happening not too long ago. Does Max really need all this unpleasantness, all in in the name of defending him? has he asked for this?
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24 Aug 00 - 04:45 PM (#284363) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: harpgirl I might as wade into the fray. My corporation is an "S" corporation as I would think Onstage Media is. Didn't Max say once that the Mudcat was a 501(3)(c) or non-profit? If so, he has to keep pretty complex records. I know because I sit on the board of directors of a non-profit corporation as Treasurer. Whether he has time to give us an accounting is purely his choice. But he has to give one to the government. Since he hasn't said anything about it, I would assume he doesn't want to and leave it at that. Donate or not and get the records yourself. It's public information. |
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24 Aug 00 - 04:50 PM (#284368) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: SINSULL "All of this strong reaction to the post is largely due to speculation as to who the poster may be and what their motives may be." No Shambles, it isn't. Please read my post. And carefully read the first responses to the original post. Logical reasonable replies and comments. The "Guest" then started the same old crap about nobody agreeing with him because he is a guest.And put in the usual Max bashing with a snide comment about Max not coming up with $45000. If that hadn't gotten an angry response, he/she would have slipped in another until someone bit, got angry, and "Guest Bashed". Why defend this behavior? I don't understand.
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24 Aug 00 - 04:53 PM (#284372) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: SINSULL STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!! I fell into the second trap and confronted Shambles when we both actually agree on this problem. Damn it! My apologies, Shambles. You deserve better. My punishment will be to go out in the garden and sing Kumbaya until all the little children join in or a neighbor sics a dog on me. Mary |
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24 Aug 00 - 05:05 PM (#284385) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: dwditty OK, everybody. Put your money where your mouth is. That way, no matter what your stance on this or any other issue, the Mudcat will be a better (and more peaceful) place. |
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24 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM (#284391) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: harpgirl Well, Groucho said it first. Sorry, didn't read every post as usual. But hopefully Guest isn't too frightened to read all the way to the bottom! |
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24 Aug 00 - 05:30 PM (#284414) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Mbo To get back to music...
Ready or not, come what may |
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24 Aug 00 - 06:37 PM (#284473) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: oggie I enjoy mudcat, it's fun, informative and lively. Thanks to Bill Sables, I have met some mudcatters who were the same (great evening at the Jug). I am grateful it exists. I care if it loses money because it might vanish, if it is profitable (which I doubt) I do not begrudge that either - good luck. Long may it exist and keep me entertained and informed!!! Who would you rather have - Mudcat or Wal-Mart? (substitute your own least favourite corporation) All the best Steve |
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25 Aug 00 - 06:02 AM (#284893) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Catrin I have learned something from this. Not to take things for granted. This site is wonderful and Max et al. deserve some recognition for that. I will make a donation as soon as my next pay check clears. Catrin |
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25 Aug 00 - 06:34 AM (#284901) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Joe Offer I believe Max tried to get registered as a 501(3)(c), and was not able to. If I recall correctly, he was able to incorporate the Mudcat Cafe, however. Maybe he or Bert or somebody will give us correct information on that. -Joe Offer- |
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25 Aug 00 - 01:48 PM (#285160) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: DougR I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Max's efforts to get a 501c3 rating were not successful, Joe. IRS regulations has made this designation a bit difficult to get these days. In most instances, I would guess the tax deduction is not that important to the donor where the Mudcat is concerned. If the Mudcat is not nonprofit, then Max has no obligation to publish financial reports. My opinion of course. DougR |
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25 Aug 00 - 01:53 PM (#285161) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Bert Max announced on Mudcat Radio recently that he is applying for 501 status. He has a 40 page form to fill out. The address for Mudcat is published above. Anyone who has any legitimate questions for Max is quite free to ask him. Any gutless wonder who is only interested in causing trouble can start an anonymous thread. Bert. |
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25 Aug 00 - 02:12 PM (#285171) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: katlaughing Goodonya Bert, I agree. Last I knew anyone who wanted to make a donation to a not-for-profit could designate that donation for a specific thing simply by writing the restriction on the check. We had people do that all of the time when I worked for the director of development at a center for the arts.
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25 Aug 00 - 02:53 PM (#285208) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Ebbie Judging by my own reaction, I suspect that this thread will end up having a positive effect: I promptly got on Max's secure line and made another donation. Sounds like others had the same response. I have to believe that the original question was not an innocent request for information. If it were, why wouldn't the question have been asked of Max, rather than of the members? All we could say is, don' know, don' care. Ebbie |
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25 Aug 00 - 08:38 PM (#285371) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: DougR Well, Ebbie, the poster might thrive on discord, and also might love to "stir the pot." He/she probably got the reaction that he/she expected if that's the case. DougR |
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28 Aug 00 - 06:45 PM (#286816) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Susanne (skw) 1. I do agree with our guest that knowing where the money goes generally makes it easier to donate. 2. Anyone who knows anything about the technology behind this amazing tool will realise in a second Max has neither money nor time to spend on cigarettes, whisky or wild, wild women. 3. Somehow I would find it easier to trust in our guest's pure motives for his/her request if I knew his/her name. Heartfelt thanks to Max for all he is doing to keep this place going for us! - Susanne |
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10 May 02 - 06:04 PM (#708482) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST *refresh* £50,000, my arse |
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10 May 02 - 06:36 PM (#708502) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Devilmaster refresh my arse. Well perhaps Guest can agree that the search feature of the threads can't be that bad. He found this thread to spit up. What was the point? Max, do yer thing, mate. And guest, if you don't want to give a donation, nobody is forcing you. *Yawn* Steve |
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10 May 02 - 06:52 PM (#708510) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: artbrooks troll alert |
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10 May 02 - 09:16 PM (#708593) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Bill D I disagree..troll only semi-alert..*grin* Thos who ARE alert are not fretting over it all.. |
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11 May 02 - 12:30 AM (#708659) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Celtic Soul Groucho Marxist says: "I assume from the ".org" designation that Mudcat is a non-profit organization. Perhaps I'm wrong about that assumption. I work for a non-profit and we're legally required to keep books with annual audited statements available to anyone who wants to see them". I add: dot org means no such thing. One of my bandmates performs with another group...they have a dot org address. Guess what? They're just a band, and they *can* turn a profit. The designation does not equal "Non Profit Organization" with all the legalities that implies. I have no idea what the laws are concerning donations to a ***FREE*** service such as the 'Cat. I'd say consult an accountant *before* posting questions like this, but that's just me. |
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11 May 02 - 01:49 AM (#708678) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Peg quite right, being a "dot org" does not make one a legally incorporated non-profit. In fact the opposite can also be true; for example, at www.witchvox.com, we ARE an incorporated non-profit (and also own witchvox.org but it is not in use as actively as the other domain). But I digress...anyone with no clue how expensive it is to run a website shouldn't bother with self-righteous demands for accounting.
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11 May 02 - 03:32 AM (#708697) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Cappuccino Rather than actually demanding accounts, I think I'd simply like to ask, politely: "Max, is Mudcat's head above water at the moment? Are you managing reasonably OK?" But that's just out of friendly concern - not because I have any particular need to see your expenses. And I guess most of us would say exactly the same. Regards - Ian B |
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11 May 02 - 04:56 AM (#708714) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Caterpillar Tractor had a problem with Mudcat.com since they wanted it for commercial purposes. It was not originally Max's idea to go "ORG"
This was in a previous discussion a few years back. |
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11 May 02 - 08:06 AM (#708765) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Celtic Soul Peg...This is the "refresh" that started this thread all over again: "Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Date: 10-May-02 - 06:04 PM *refresh* £50,000, my arse" Is it any surprise that "GUEST" refreshed this debaucle? Next time, I pay closer attention to the date of originiation, and when (and by whom) it was refreshed. |
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11 May 02 - 08:43 AM (#708792) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Paul from Hull If this is the most 'insulting' & controversial Thread the Troll who refreshed it could find (& FINDING it, as Devilmaster said, speaks volumes for the efficiency of the Forum Search) in going back 2 years, then I'd say Mudcat is in a pretty healthy state! (though it might say something about the poor quality of Troll we are attracting these days too...) |
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11 May 02 - 02:02 PM (#708959) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Not the same one as above Actually, I'm pretty careful with who I send "donation" money to, so the suggestion that if Max wishes to be supported by donations (whether for or not for profit), doesn't fall on deaf ears with me. IMO, it is never a a bad idea to give some sort of accountability information in these sorts of endeavors--which Max could do on the front page of Mudcat. Just some basic info as to how his program here works, what donations go towards, some explanation of how much the operating costs are per year, that sort of stuff. Nothing substantial, but just informational in a friendly way. My guess is newcomers and occassional users of the site would be encouraged rather that discouraged to donate that way. While I understand the feeling of loyalty and appreciation to Max the regulars feel, it isn't realistic to think that the regulars are financially sustaining the Mudcat endeavor, if I understand operating costs for sites like this at all. Which means, if Max is to be able to do this long-term, other financial strategies (than the goodwill donations) will need to be initiated to continue to pay the operating costs of the site. It is one thing to run a site on goodwill, which is what Max does with Mudcat apparently. It is another thing entirely to try and run a site with sales, donations, memberships, etc. That does take accounting, and if you are going to do the latter, it is only reasonable for member/donors to be given a reasonable accounting of how the money gets spent on a regular basis, just as a matter of good business practice. Nothing will sink an endeavor faster than mistrust of management in these sorts of "friendly" circumstances where the relationship between member/donor and recipient isn't well defined. Both sides become suspicious of one another's motives, and it is all downhill from there. These are difficult issues for Mudcat folk, I know. On the one hand, Max has gotten by on the goodwill of his regulars. Apparently. We don't really know what percent of Mudcat donations covers what percent of the operating expenses. To suggest (in absolutist terms) that either Max provide a complete accounting, or no accounting whatsoever, seems to be missing the point. If users want to both see the site succeed, and help it to do that through donations and contributions, IMO, it isn't unreasonable to request an accounting of some sort. Not an IRS audit sort of accounting, but at least an overview of expenses, assets, operating costs, income, etc. is reasonable if people are interested in long term financial viability and wish to contribute to it. If Max is applying for non-profit status, he is required to provide all that by law anyway, as someone said--but not until he actually gets the status. So if he hasn't gone through the process of putting all the financials on paper yet for the application, it could be premature to suggest he provide his donors with an accounting, since it is all "goodwill" donations at this point. But if Max does get the non-profit status, I think it wise for the information to be in some easily obtainable form for member/donors who are interested in donating to a financially viable organization, and not throwing good money after bad. Just another opinion. BTW, I realize the guest who refreshed the thread is being confrontational. But that doesn't mean that a reasonable debate over the issue can't take place, does it? Or does it? Are some of the Mudcat members (and perhaps Max too) a little to defensive on this subject? That is what it looks like to me after a complete reading of the thread. Openness and honesty are always good business practices. Putting the information out there is one very good way of taking the wind out of one's adversaries arguments of this sort. |
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11 May 02 - 02:04 PM (#708961) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Gareth Actually - Us European 'Catters are trying to do something - See this thread ! Click 'Ere Unfortunately I don't think that we can cater for'OZ cos the banks tend to be mercenary. When MAX fired up his distress flare in January Click 'Ere Various means inluding couriers, Bill Sables cash swops etc. were used to feed finance into the US of A. And it seems to have worked. I hope, if myself and others, have convinced the Unity Trust Bank of our 'bona fides' that we will in the next few days have a method of providing an income stream to the 'Cat. On a personal note the Mudcate Cafe has given me hours of enjoyment. I hope we can all put something back in to it. Gareth |
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11 May 02 - 02:30 PM (#708971) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Not the same, etc etc No question about levels of enjoyment, Gareth. But when one is talking financials, we aren't just discussing bang for the buck entertainment wise. There is a question of accountability as well. I personally was unaware of the UK funding scheme. So isn't it possible for regulars to understand that none of this is very transparent to outsiders (ie potential funders, banks, the IRS), newcomers wishing to contribute, that sort of thing? I also had no idea that people were donating to the auction to benefit Mudcat until I read the thread. And BTW, it might well be that these income sources won't allow Max to get non-profit status until and unless he has a better financial accountability system in place. Just things to think about. It may not be as obvious to long-time regulars who have helped devise and contribute to the financial schemes over time, as it is to us newbies who haven't a clue about all these things. Would an explanation of all this on the front page be such a bad thing? |
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11 May 02 - 02:34 PM (#708976) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Joe Offer Well, actually, I don't think we're interested in becoming that formal an operation. Right now, we have the Digital Tradition, which is Dick's baby; and we have the Mudcat Cafe, which belongs to Max. They are accountable to nobody, and there is no reason why they should be accountable to anybody. The Digital Tradition and the Mudcat Cafe are sole proprietorships. Dick and Max own them. The system of management is somewhat akin to an absolute monarchy or a benevolent dictatorship, although I tend to think our monarchs are quite enlightened. A number of people have, of their own free will, given money to Max (and a little bit to Dick) to help them with the cost of operation. Others volunteer to help in other ways. Most of these people consider themselves to be friends of Dick and Max, and they do what they do and give what they give because of trust and affection. If we get more formal, we get into a completely different realm - and we open ourselves to a big batch of problems. We can experience the joys of having the DT and Mudcat operated by a committee. So, I suppose accountability and formal organization are something to consider, but it's up to Dick and Max to decide to relinquish their ownership - and they haven't done that. Most of us like the easy, informal organization we have now. I made a commitment to Max to give him enough to run Mudcat for a month each year. I send him a check, and he can do what he wants with it. He can spend it on beer, for all I care. Of course, if he shuts Mudcat down, I'll stop sending him money. As long as Mudcat keeps running, I'll keep sending him money. That's fair, isn't it? At least, I'm satisfied. -Joe Offer- The Who's In Charge section of the FAQ gives some information on this matter. |
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11 May 02 - 02:38 PM (#708979) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Gareth Watch this space - And yes we have had a little problem with the banks explaining matters. Put it this way ' Friends of the Mudcat ' UK will not get UK Charitable status, but I am optomistic we will get Non-Profit status. Gareth |
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11 May 02 - 02:49 PM (#708987) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Not the same Joe, I really do appreciate the enthusiasm and level of support of the long time regulars here, but remarks like this: "They are accountable to nobody, and there is no reason why they should be accountable to anybody" seems pretty over the top for someone who is representing a business which obviously is surviving due to goodwill donations. How much goodwill among newcomers do you think you engender with an attitude like that? I, like Mudcat, run a sole proprietorship. you/Max/Dick/Mudcat are still required by law to report income from all sources, which includes monetary donations, in-kind (ie the auction scheme) donations, and from sales of services and merchandise. To suggest that no accountability is owed anyone just isn't true. As the old cliche goes--there is no such thing as a free lunch. |
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11 May 02 - 02:50 PM (#708988) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Not the same BTW, Joe--do you speak on behalf of Mudcat as a legal representative or something? |
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11 May 02 - 02:59 PM (#708993) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Not the same, one more time OK--I have double checked the front page now. Here is a cut and paste straight from the horses mouth: "In an effort to both provide you with Folk and Blues Music resources as well as raise money for the Mudcat, we have added The Mudcat Record Shop. Find recordings and items not available elsewhere or find more common items at even lower prices than the Giant Corporations, all while supporting and enhancing the Mudcat Cafe and Digital Tradition, both registered non-profit organizations." According to the front page, both Mudcat Cafe and DT are non-profit legal entities. There is a legal requirement for accounting. So the idea that people shouldn't ask for that accounting is pretty outrageous. So, I guess it is perfectly reasonable for users of the site who wish to make a donation to request of Max/Mudcat/DT where one can get the financial information about the organization. They should be able to do that without being villified too, IMO. |
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11 May 02 - 03:12 PM (#709001) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST,Not the same, one last time Consider this one a public service announcement. From the excellent Nonprofit FAQ site: http://www.nonprofits.org/npofaq/16/47.html How must NPOs respond to public requests for 990s? Summary: New laws and regulations greatly expand public access. They took effect June 8, 1999. by Eric Mercer There has recently been significant expansion of the federal laws and regulations requiring tax-exempt organizations to provide public access to documents they submit to the IRS, including annual tax returns (Form 990 and its relatives) and their Application for Recognition of Exemption (Form 1023). In January 1999, the IRS is releasing new regulations that implement Section 1313 of the Taxpayer Bill of Rights 2 (TBOR2), enacted on July 30, 1996. Furthermore, these new public access requirements have been expanded to include private foundations. (The complete texts of the Federal Register notice and the regulations are available at http://990online.com/fr-doc-99-8638.html. The effective date of the new regulations is June 8, 1999. There is also a practical discussion of how nonprofits should approach making the required disclosures at http://www.nonprofits.org/bulletins/990508.html --PB 5/21/99.) In short, almost all tax-exempt organizations are now required to provide public access in a timely fashion to their most recent three years of federal tax returns and to their original Application for Recognition of Exemption. These must be complete, including From 990 Schedule A and all other accompanying materials submitted to the IRS, with the sole exception of those attachments that name individual donors. A very narrow exception is also made for organizations the IRS determines are being subject to a harassment campaign. There are significant fines for noncompliance. Generally speaking, people who visit one of the tax-exempt organization's offices and ask for these materials must be provided with the opportunity to view and copy them, and tax-exempt organizations must send copies of these materials by mail upon request. Minor fees for copying, postage and other processing may be assessed. An exception to these required access mechanisms is made if the organization makes the materials "widely available," which may be satisfied by publishing them on the Internet in a suitable format. A discussion of the regulations, links to the original laws and regulations, examples of online tax returns, and other related resources, may be found at the U.S. Nonprofit Organization's Form 990 and 1023 Public Access Site http://www.muridae.com/publicaccess/. Other related sites include the Form 990 Web Site http://www.form990.org/, the AIDS Service Provider Accountability Project http://www.accountabilityproject.com/, and GuideStar http://www.guidestar.org/. |
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11 May 02 - 03:12 PM (#709002) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Midchuck £50,000, my arse Nahhhh! Highly overpriced. P. |
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11 May 02 - 03:28 PM (#709016) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: wysiwyg Let me simplify.The question has been asked, sometimes nicely and sometimes rudely. Sometimes with good intentions and sometimes not. Sometimes while knowing what one is talking about and sometimes not.
Whatever-- it's been asked.It's also been answered, sometimes nicely and sometimes rudely. Sometimes with good intentions and sometimes not. Sometimes while knowing what one is talking about and sometimes not.
Whatever--it's been answered.Simply-- and feel however one wishes to feel about this-- the answer is, "No."Would it not make sense to simply move on?? ~Susan |
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11 May 02 - 03:39 PM (#709027) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Amos Well, for your personal benefit, here is an accounting, original Guest, and probably of interest to anyone in similar straits: Monetary Value at Current Market Rates of Services you have received from the Mudcat Cafe and its members acting as such (information, educational services, entertainment, psychological counseling, research and reporting services, comedy and cyber-companionship services) (Estimated): $312,698.45 Monetary Value of Contirbutions in Kind you have made (see categories above)(Estimated due to anonymity: $21,567.21 Monetary Value of Donations in check or currency made by you to the Mudcat Cafe: $0.00 Net credit/debt: ($292131.24) DR Please take steps to correct this imbalance at your earliest opportunity. Regards, Amos
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11 May 02 - 03:42 PM (#709028) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Is the Mudcat Cafe address given for donations through the link to the "Trouble" thread above (by Gareth) the legal address for Mudcat Cafe and Digital Tradition?
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11 May 02 - 04:19 PM (#709056) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Joe Offer Well, my nameless friend/friends, I'll be glad to discuss music with you, without you revealing who you are. However, I have no obligation to discuss finances and legalities with anonymous persons. Pene Azul and I handle the day-to-day operations for Max, but Max is the owner of the Mudcat Cafe. If you need legal or financial information, contact him personally. Regarding the status of Mudcat and the Digital Tradition as organizations, neither entity has claimed tax-exempt status, so no accounting is required. As I have said above and as I have explained in the FAQ, the Mudcat Cafe is run by Max, with help from his friends. The Digital Tradition is run by Dick Greenhaus, with help from his friends. These are not businesses - these are things that Max and Dick and their friends do for their personal enjoyment. If you're not a friend, don't bother contributing. -Joe Offer, a friend- |
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11 May 02 - 07:38 PM (#709151) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: IvanB Joe, I think you do the Mudcat a disservice by your continued insistance that it is not a tax exempt organization. As our anonymous Guest has posted, the home page for Mudcat (probably one which the majority of us miss on our way directly to the threads) does state that both Mudcat and the Digital Tradition are "registered non-profit organizations." If this is true, those entities had to claim that status - it isn't just given automagically. That said, I think there is some confusion operating here that a tax exempt organization is automatically a charitable one, i.e., that donations made toward its expenses are tax deductible. I believe both Max and Dick have been very specific that neither entity has been granted charitable organization status by any government agency. It's also been stated in the other thread on this subject that an IRS form 990 is not required of a non-profit which receives less than $25,000 gross receipts in a year. I suspect that both the DT and Mudcat fall well within that exemption. And, if memory serves me right, Max did give some general figures for operating expenses and donation receipts when 'Spaw's "Pledge Drive" was going on last year. So, it probably comes down to the essentially the same thing as what you said last: Anybody dissatisfied with the level of disclosure of DT and Mudcat financials probably shouldn't donate. Those who are convinced that they've gotten far more benefit from both than what they've put into them will probably continue to do so. But if anybody thinks that Dick and Max have some legal requirement to make the organizations' finances public to us all, s/he is laboring under a false assumption. |
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11 May 02 - 07:44 PM (#709156) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Unless of course, the income for any year since incorporation has exceeded $25,000. But as I said in the other thread, if the information isn't readily disclosed, the Pennsylvania Dept of Charities can investigate to insure no fraud or abuse has or is taking place. And I think that does bring all this to a conclusion. As I said above, openness and honesty in these matters is a much better policy than obfuscation, hostility, and casting stones at someone asking legitimate questions about the charity status of an organization openly soliciting on-line for donations. |
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11 May 02 - 08:37 PM (#709196) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: IvanB Guest, you probably should first read the Form 990 instructions. The instance of a single year of receipts over $25,000 doesn't trigger a need for a 990 for that year. In fact, the test for gross receipts of $25,000 yearly is a fairly liberal one that could allow several years of receipts over that level. And, as I said above, I doubt that either DT or Mudcat (or the two combined, for that matter) have ever been close to the $25,000 level. Also, as I stated above Mudcat and DT are not charities. Yes, the PA Dept of Charities could probably make a preliminary investigation, but I doubt seriously that they would determine that either the DT or Mudcat fall under the purview of the Act. Just as nonprofit status does not a charity make, neither do solicitations for donations. If a representation was made that the solicitation was for charitable contributions, that would be another thing altogether. But, as I stated above, I'm pretty sure neither Max nor Dick has ever made such a representation, in fact they have been pretty explicit in stating otherwise. |
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11 May 02 - 11:26 PM (#709286) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Peter Kasin GUEST, the reason for the heated responses is that your question presupposes a distrust of Max's handling of monies, and appears to be a trolling thread thinly disguised as a simple question. CarolC had a simple solution: PM Max and ask him what he needs. Have you followed her advice? |
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12 May 02 - 12:50 AM (#709322) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST As it isn't possible to ascertain what the amount of receipts are for Mudcat/Digitrad from this website, how is a person to be able to determine if this is a legitimate site to contribute to, regardless of whether or not one's contribution is tax deductible? On the solicitation page, Max states: "So how can we be supported? I own a company called Onstage Media, Inc. which does nothing less than finance the entire Mudcat operations. Dick finances the Digitrad with his pocket change and an occasional grant. Both Dick and I benefit a great deal from the success of Onstage. One very certain way to benefit The Mudcat and Digitrad is to refer business to Onstage Media, Inc., and its clients. You can link to Onstage's Web site throughout the mudcat as well as here to find out more about us. Onstage will donate 10% of all income from work referred through the Mudcat to the Mudcat and Digitrad." It isn't at all clear what the legal relationships are between Mudcat Cafe, Digital Tradition, and Onstage Media. When I see that information on the solicitation page, I wonder if there isn't an issue of "Unrelated Business Income" that could conceivably put the non-profit entity(ies) over the $25,000 mark annually. So I go to Guidestar and the PA Dept of Charities websites to search the databases for info on 990s, and nothing shows up. I know however, the IRS also requires a Solicitation Notice be given making these things clear, regardless of the amount of receipts. From the IRS Charities and Non-profit website: "Section 6113 provides that certain tax-exempt organizations that are not eligible to receive tax deductible charitable contributions must disclose in "an express statement (in a conspicuous and easily recognizable format)" that contributions to the organization are not deductible for Federal income tax purposes as charitable contributions. This provision applies to organizations that are not eligible to receive deductible charitable contributions and are described in either § 501(c), § 501(d), or § 527. The Service issued Notice 88-120 to provide safe harbors for meeting the requirements of § 6113." Then on the home page, Max says: "...the Mudcat Cafe and Digital Tradition, both registered non-profit organizations." So I ask in the forum about all this conflicting information and after a few good sized boulders are heaved my way by people with a lot more loyalty than knowledge, Dick chimes in "Digital Tradition is a non-profit since 1988." To long-time members who clearly trust the site owners, I am not surprised in the least that these don't look like strange irregularities and inconsistencies to you. But I assure you, as someone coming in from the outside, and reading in threads, on the home page, and on the solicitation page all the ways you can support Max and Mudcat, and Dick and Digital Tradition, it does look somewhat irregular (to be polite). If raising the issue on a website forum which is claiming non-profit status on the homepage makes me a jerk in the membership's eyes, so be it. Speaking up and asking the question isn't the problem, the way the information is displayed on the website is, which doesn't exactly make this site look legit and above board. My donation is the suggestion that the site owners clean up their acts, and make things perfectly clear. |
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12 May 02 - 01:28 AM (#709328) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Devilmaster *Yawn* |
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12 May 02 - 02:07 AM (#709333) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Amos Dear Anonymous.... Thanks for the donation. Your account now stands at: Monetary Value of Contirbutions in Kind you have made (see categories above)(Estimated due to anonymity: $(11,211.98) Monetary Value of Donations in check or currency made by you to the Mudcat Cafe: $0.00 Net credit/debt: ($325910.43) DR The unspecified and less-than-helpful suggestions about "cleaning up acts" are adjudicated to have been the primary factor in the notrable decrease in value contributed. and the resultant dramatic increase in negative value on account. Please take steps to rectify this situation at the earliest possible moment. A |
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12 May 02 - 02:24 AM (#709335) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: DougR Artbrooks gave a heads up troll alert on the 10th of May. What was the result? Multiple posts since then. "Oh when will we ever learn, Oh when will we ever learn?" DougR |
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12 May 02 - 04:45 AM (#709357) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: Banjer Let's make use of the idiot's rant....lets start a fund driive each time one of these trolls rears its ugly head, then they may stop just because they know it is inadvertanly helping the 'Cat. |
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12 May 02 - 06:22 AM (#709396) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: katlaughing Stated plainly and clearly, by Max, on the same page from which Guest is selectively quoting (emphasis is mine): Anyhow, I hate the idea of accepting donations. We can't afford to get our tax exempt status, therefore any donations are not tax-deductible... |
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12 May 02 - 11:10 AM (#709470) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: GUEST Which is the exact opposite of what the homepage says. So which one is right? Clearly, one of the other statements doesn't belong there. And the "selective quoting" I've done from the solicitation page states: "Both Dick and I benefit a great deal from the success of Onstage. One very certain way to benefit The Mudcat and Digitrad is to refer business to Onstage Media, Inc., and its clients." That conceivably looks like a claim that Onstage Media owns, or at the very least has financial interests in both Mudcat Cafe and Digital Tradition. Which raises the pesky IRS issue of entangled ownership, and "creative" accounting of unrelated business income linked in some murky way to Digital Tradition. Which Dick Greenhaus has come into these threads to confirm IS a registered non-profit organization (despite your protestations to the contrary katlaughing). That makes SOMEONE here obliged to obey IRS, Pennsylvania and Delaware laws regarding unrelated business income reporting for tax exempt organizations, whether charitable or not. The homepage says both the Mudcat Cafe and Digital Tradition are registered non-profit organizations. Dick Greenhaus says Digital Tradition is a non-profit non-charitable organization. So what the hell is the REAL story here? Or is it something that just needs to be reported to appropriate authorities to be sorted out?
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12 May 02 - 11:58 AM (#709492) Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts? From: catspaw49 Wonderfully done circle games you're playing my dear troll......Excellent job and I commend your performance......You fail to answer the relevant questions thrown back by repeating yourself on a different issue/question.....Very well done! Now obviously none of this has anything to do with you nor is it even remotely important to anyone that matters nor are you even slightly interested at all in Mudcat, so again, I commend your performance as it has achieved an excellent response from the members which should delight you no end. Congrats on a job well done! I don't mind giving you this additional message as I'm sure you will continue in any number of ways to keep both of these threads going until you decide to quit....and as you seem to be a weekend kind of troll, I imagine that will probably be about Tuesday. Until then, keep up the good work in continuing to prove the effectiveness a knowledgeable troll can have. Again, an excellent job of stirring!!! Spaw |