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06 Sep 00 - 10:40 AM (#292063) Subject: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Peter T. I have come to think that we are much too influenced by our current selves. We spend too much time in its company, we listen to it too much, we gauge our potential and our capacities by what it can do now. Everyone knows somewhere that if we are really challenged, or in some completely different context, or in some emergency, we can astound ourselves by what we can do. Yet there is that self from which we take our cue, and our assumptions, and our cowardice about what is possible: why it has such mesmerizing power over us can of course be due to inertia; but also I think because it is so close to us, so "in our face" all the time, that it enthralls, ensnares us into thinking that who we are now is the rule, and everything else the exception. My students dream of what they could be: but their selves whisper that it is a vain dream. There are innumerable recipes for breaking free: Buddhists say, deny the false self; Emersonians say create an imagined future self and strive towards it; and others say find a greater power into which you can flood your hopes and fears. But all, it seems to me, acknowledge the fact that we can be much more than we are; and that our fixation on who we are now are keeps holding us back from the unimaginable prospect of what we could be. |
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06 Sep 00 - 11:04 AM (#292078) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Peg Thank you Peter; I was having thoughts along these lines the last few days and this articulation has helped greatly...even if only etching my confusion in starker relief than before! :) My recent struggle has had to do with what is "important" about living one's life? I am dealing with an unpleasant situation with my student loan debts just now and want it to go away. I realize this sort of thing can create all kinds of stress, just as any money-related issue can. And I try to put it in perspective by remembering that what is important is to celebrate my friends and loved ones, to celebrate my own life and share my kindness and talents and beauty and mirth with the world...if I wish to be remembered by others with pleasure or fondness or respect, I would hope that my efforts to paint the world with the many colors of my vital end up being more significant than amassing property or money or other stuff that is, ultimately, if not ephemeral, still rather meaningless in the larger sense of the word... We never know when our number is up...we should strive each day to end things on a high note...or at least a comfortable one.
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06 Sep 00 - 11:31 AM (#292091) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: JenEllen Of course we are influenced by our current selves! Path of least resistance, water running downhill... I've come to believe the act of extending oneself is a lost art. I work with people who's daily lives consist of waking up late, running to work, working with blinders on, driving home, eating take-out, and watching television until it's time to go to sleep. The most interesting thing you can get out of them is what happened on "Big Brother" last night. Frankly it scares me, because I don't think they know themselves. Except for the cases of recreational drugs and snowboarding, how many people have REALLY been hurt by trying something new? Okay, so I almost left out the Titanic.. but still, Neitzche was on to something here. Even if you discover that you can't paint, rollerblade, or make pie crust like your Grammy, the journey itself will teach you wonderous things about who you are, and what you can become. For me it's just the difference between finishing the dance and moving quietly to your seat, and finishing the dance with a flourish and a "TA-DAAAH!" ~Elle
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06 Sep 00 - 12:23 PM (#292132) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox The thing we seem to forget is that we are always ourselves no matter what we do. Even if we are pretending to be someone/something else Even when we discover new facets of ourselves. It seems that we are afraid of admitting to ourselves that we are what we are, at all times, whether we like it or not. I think that we are afraid of this because we think that accepting it somehow diminishes us into something insignificant. This could not be further from the truth however, as we need only reflect upon our experience to discover our immensity. Everything that you have read, seen, said, thought, been told, heard, smelt, tasted, dreamed of, imagined, feared, fought, loved ... etc ... is a part of your experience, and is therefore a reflection of a small part of you. We are a contradictory species with the potential to be both devils and angels (both concepts that we understand whether we believe they exist or not). Peter T., you are you, no matter what you do. You can only ever be subjective, because it is ultimately you that decides what you think is objective and what isn't. The scariest moment of my life was when I realised this to be true about myself. I have grown to understand though that it is not something to be scared of, but is merely the starting point in a more honest and rewarding journey. The best bit is in realising that, in all likelihood, everyone else is in the same boat. That's where you get to learn about what makes humans tick in general, how to learn about yourself by watching others, and how to learn about others by watching yourself. You have to be honest and fair to make it really work, but don't worry, being a human being you have that ability in spades just as much as you have the ability to be blinkered, unfair, and dishonest. Whatever happens, when people tell you to be yourself, tell them that you are, because that's all you ever can be. |
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06 Sep 00 - 12:39 PM (#292148) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Ebbie "All that we are now is because of where we've been Although the road appears uncertain along the way If I had to do it over- reweave this tapestry- Well, I guess I wouldn't change a single day" from I WOULDN'T CHANGE A DAY, Kathy Martin Fanning |
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06 Sep 00 - 12:45 PM (#292152) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Mbo Don't it make you sad to know that life is more than who we are? |
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06 Sep 00 - 12:47 PM (#292154) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox No. It reassures me that I'm not going to die of boredom! |
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06 Sep 00 - 12:50 PM (#292157) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Mbo Ah, I was only quoting a song! |
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06 Sep 00 - 01:08 PM (#292171) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Peter T. My point is the opposite, Lox, or perhaps we mean the same thing at a deeper level. Accepting what we are (or you might say the narrow version of what we think we are) is what I am (today) contradicting. I am saying that I can be what I am not, but am blinded by the overwhelming presence of what I currently am. yours, Peter T. |
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06 Sep 00 - 01:26 PM (#292188) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox What You're talking about, or so it seems to me, is people who - (I've done it and will do it again, and that's how I know)- obsess about what they think they might be, or even worse, who obsess about what others think they might be. My point is, that when you accept that you are yourself, consistently, no matter what you do about it, you also realise that there is no point in obsessing over what you might or might not be. Whatsmore, no philosophy, creed, religion, wise saying, insult or judgement can sum up something as ungraspable, constantly changing and free as the human spirit. Wow! Don't you think? (bearing in mind the bit about understanding others etc) |
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06 Sep 00 - 01:28 PM (#292191) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox |
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06 Sep 00 - 01:41 PM (#292203) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together! |
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06 Sep 00 - 01:43 PM (#292207) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Peter T. No, it seems to me we are on two different topics. I am attacking the limitations of the current image of the self. You are saying we should accept ourselves as the sane starting point for moving forward. I suggest we are discussing two different selves (the false and the true). My point is that working with our current selves may be limiting. How do I know what Tahiti is like if all I know is Kansas? (That is what I am asking). You are saying that unless we know our starting point in Kansas we may never know anything, including Tahiti when we get there. Both fair points. yours, Peter T. |
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06 Sep 00 - 01:53 PM (#292221) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Jim the Bart There is a huge difference between "striving to improve" and "being dissatisfied with what you are", and the difference lies in your attitude. You can be positive about who you are and still wish to make yourself better. It does little good to be satisfied with who you are, because - as you say the words - "who you are" turns into "who you were". We are not objects as much as we are processes. We are always becoming one thing and ceasing to be something else. Managing those changes is a full-time job. What we breathe, eat, drink, think, etc. effects the process one way or the other. This is why we need to keep paying attention to these things and not take them for granted as much as we do. After all, it doesn't take much to change the process from positive to negative, or vice versa. |
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06 Sep 00 - 02:24 PM (#292243) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Naemanson I like the idea that each day is a new starting point. Our only limitation is a perception of our own inadequacy that will keep us from achieving more than just getting through that day. We each are born with the potential to go farther and do more than life would allow. Unfortunately too many of us buy into the misperception that we "can't" do something. As a result we become trapped in the rat race, spending our time working, eating, watching TV, sleeping, working... When we wake from that nightmare and say "I CAN do it!" is when we truly begin to live. |
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06 Sep 00 - 08:46 PM (#292509) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox Peter T I think that I said what I said because I don't see myself in terms of "selves". My future self is what my current self will become. My current self is therefore a pretty good indication of what my future self will be. My current self is "me". It is in no way divorced from my 'past selves'. I have always been me. I need to know that to understand myself fully. To deny it is to lie about myself. Subjectively, I intend to enjoy life in all its richness and beauty, and to learn something about it in the process. I, like you, wish that everybody thought this way. Unfortunately, political realities deny many people the opportunity, even though you will find that the most optimistic and outward looking people in this world are from communities that don't have the time to contemplate their navels. Bloody hell, I'm mashed! {:| |
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06 Sep 00 - 08:52 PM (#292513) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Mbo We need each other, we believe in one another, and I know we're going to uncover what's sleeping in our souls. |
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06 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM (#292517) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC Peter T, (As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger), "What do you mean we Whiteman?" ; ) Carol |
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07 Sep 00 - 12:17 AM (#292605) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: katlaughing I believe it is important to acknowledge who we are at the moment. It helps to know what you have to work form or a starting point. It is also important, though, to know that we can be something else, if we put our minds and hearts to it. I cannot remember the ratio but in so many days, months, years, the molecules in our bodies completely change over to new ones; it is an ongoing process. To that end, then, the physical should be able to be changed, although it also requires adherence to exercise and diet. I struggle with this all of the time, thinking, if all of the molecules in my leaky heart valve are constantly changing, then I will visualise them knitting together and changing to a fully functioning valve. Idealistic, maybe, but, in my belief in metaphysics, I believe the potential is there to do so. Theoretically, it should be possible. Likewise, we do not have to accept who we are at this moment, as who we will always be. Each of us is evolving, everyday, into a new and different consciousness. I look back now and give thanks for who I was and know that I did my best at the time, but I also give thanks that I am NOT that person now and for lessons learned. Interesting as ever, Peter. kat |
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07 Sep 00 - 03:33 AM (#292643) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC Going over this thread for the second time, I am finding it to be an astoundingly beautiful thread. Peter T. and Lox, I'm wondering if the difference between what the two of you are saying lies in your definitions of the word "self". Please correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I get is that what Peter T. is talking about has more to do with "doing", and what Lox is talking about has more to do with just "being". In other words, Peter T's concept of what the "self" is, is inextricably tied to what one "does". Whereas, Lox's definition of "self", is independent of what one does, and just "is". Am I even close? Thanks. You guys are great! Carol
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07 Sep 00 - 07:41 AM (#292686) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox Last night I spent 20 minures writing a post in which I said (approximately): "Peter T, I think we understand one another." It carried on to say that I thought Peter T may have a clear sense of himself already and that that is why he wishes that people would not limit themselves with definitions of self. Unfortunately, it appears that I may have missed the submit button. Carol, I would say that what one does and what one is are pretty much the same thing. otherwise observation is futile. |
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07 Sep 00 - 09:18 AM (#292724) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Naemanson I'm not so sure, Kat, that we are all evolving. Evolution is hard work and it is so easy to sit on the couch and let the TV wash over you. It takes a conscious effort to realize a few important points about oneself. It is so easy to lay blame for one's problems elsewhere. God knows, I've done this often enough, and recently too. Yet, when you probe into the cause of your problems with an open mind, you can usually find that you are not completely guiltless. For example, I have a bad back, a herniated disk. The reason was my weight and poor physical condition. There were two possible outcomes. I could have decided that it was my fate to suffer the pain, give in to the condition and spend the rest of my days in sloth and unhappiness. Or, I could have started an endless round of physical fitness training, physical therapy, and diet. It would have been harder and the promise of happiness was uncertain. Yet that is the path I chose and it has made all the difference. It takes great effort to learn and grow. And so many people do not bother. |
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07 Sep 00 - 12:23 PM (#292866) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: GUEST All that we are not stares back at what we are -- Auden |
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07 Sep 00 - 02:33 PM (#292959) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC Lox, would it be possible to pursuade you to expand a little on what you said to me in your last post? I don't think I'm quite understanding what you are saying. It's the "observation is futile" part that I'm having a hard time incorporating into the rest of what you've been saying. Thanks so much. Carol |
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07 Sep 00 - 02:59 PM (#292972) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Peter T. The idea that I might possibly have a clear idea of myself is totally hilarious. yours, Peter T. |
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07 Sep 00 - 06:35 PM (#293119) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Lox Carol I meant "observation of the self" as a concept, not the valid and useful observation that you made. Peter T Exactly! |
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08 Sep 00 - 12:47 AM (#293309) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC I don't know, Lox....I don't experience it that way. I can observe myself from the standpoint of what I am doing, but I can also observe myself from the standpoint of my awareness of my inner nature, which has nothing to do with anything I either "do" or "don't do". It's just a sense of "me-ness" that I have. I choose the things that I "do" from the options that I have available to me, and that helps to determine how I express myself outwardly. Sometimes I find ways to create new options for myself, and that can help me to change my outer reality. But my inner nature is independent of those kinds of considerations. My inner nature is the essence of my humanity. Best wishes, Carol |
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11 Sep 00 - 10:18 AM (#294987) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC I'm refreshing this thread because I'm not ready for it to go away yet. It's too good. |
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11 Sep 00 - 06:35 PM (#295264) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Peter T. "self, self, self, that's all you ever think about!" -- my late grandmother on her bad days to her long-suffering relations.... yours, Peter T. |
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11 Sep 00 - 07:41 PM (#295303) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC *smile* Sometimes "self" is all I've got. (Thank goodness for the Mudcat.) |
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11 Sep 00 - 07:57 PM (#295311) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Mbo Know how you feel, Carol. |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:11 PM (#295354) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Amos "Who you are always" goes as far beyond the scope and scale of "current identity" -- who you are being in your current lifetime, complete with mind, heart, reactions, emotional quirks, and deep untapped zones of unknown terror, anger, passion and pain -- as an angel differs from a talking frog. There is only one mechanism, I guess, that stands between the two, even though it may present a million iterations -- th eidentification of self-as-unlimited with an object (physical or mental). The only way to walk back up this somewhat tortuous trail is to start by being completely willing to be what you are idnetified with -- in other words, be "yourself", because until you are, you won't find the key to slipping free of it. This was a central tenet of the buddha's teaching -- to let go both of desire and of resistance to all things. But it has been incorporated in many other excellent philosphies and is in my opinion one of the great classical lessons of all time. A |
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24 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM (#304436) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Amos Gee...killed the whole thread! Guess I said it all, huh...? |
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24 Sep 00 - 01:20 PM (#304442) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Little Neophyte Guess you did say it all Amos At that very moment everyone of interest read your posting they let go of both desire and resistance to this topic. Being that you just posted again, I would suggest you look at your own desire Amos, maybe there is some pull to have this topic here manifest again.(typed with one big loving smile) Little Neo |
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24 Sep 00 - 01:40 PM (#304451) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: Amos Oh, Bonnie, you caught me! This is where I'm supposed to pull levers and say loudly,
Love, Amos |
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24 Sep 00 - 08:25 PM (#304671) Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 6,00 From: CarolC It's still a good thread. Think I'll keep it around just a little while longer. |