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17 Oct 00 - 09:38 AM (#320781) Subject: Approx. date needed for song From: GUEST,Hilary Hullo all-- I volunteer at a local historical site where the date is always 1771 (!), and I need to know if a song is old enough to perform there. The title is given as "My Young Man", and it appears on The Oyster Band's album "Lie Back and Think of England". The lyrics are very simple: I've got a bonnet, trimmed in blue Do you wear it? Yes, I do! Where do you wear it? When I can--going to the fair with my young man! Liner notes state only that it was a children's song. So my question is, WHEN?? I know these things are often dreadfully difficult to document, but any tips would help. I'm also curious about a song I've only ever heard on "Prairie Home Companion" which goes, in part, Gonna tell my mam when I get home the boys won't leave the girls alone Pulled my hair and they stole my comb But that's all right when I get home She is handsome, she is pretty, She is the belle of Belfast City... Thanks-- Hilary |
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17 Oct 00 - 10:25 AM (#320824) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: GUEST,Ian M. Hilary, Your second song is called "I'll Tell My Ma" and is a very common Irish song and has been recorded many times eg Clancy Brothers, Dubliners etc. Good Luck, Ian M. |
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17 Oct 00 - 10:40 AM (#320831) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Irish sergeant Actually, I've also heard the second song referred to as "The Boys Won't Leave the Girls Alone." CAn't help with the first but maybe some one from the Brigade of the American Revolution can. They are a Re-enactor society that recreates the American Revolution and hopefully they would know. Unfortunately i don't have a web address for them. Good luck in your search. Kindest reguards,. Neil |
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17 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM (#320892) Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: I HAVE A BONNET TRIMMED WITH BLUE From: Malcolm Douglas I'm afraid that I can't help much with the date, but I can tell you that the tune, played as a polka, has been popular in Scotland, Ireland and England; it also turns up as an Old Time tune in America. In Ireland it is also known as Tá Boinéad Agam. There are a number of examples at JC's Tunefinder, among them the following (first example Irish, second English):
X: 1
The following is the entry from The Fiddler's Companion
ALEX DICE. AKA and see "Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "Cracovienne," "Din Tarrant's," "I Have a Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "I have a donkey, he wouldn't go," "Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Kradoviak," "T· boinÈad agam," "Tarrant's," "Walk Jawbone." American, Schottische. USA, Pa. G Major. Standard. AB. Bayard (1981) identifies this as an international tune, tracing it to the German "Krakovienne" c. 1842-50 printed in Boehme, which was known as "Cracovienne" or "Krakoviak" in the British Isles. He also states the tune was known as "Walk Jawbone" in the U.S., and that in Roche (Vol. 2, No. 302) it appears as an untitled set-dance. The tune was also known as "Bonnet (or Jacket) Trimmed in Blue" from lyrics associated to it that began: I have a bonnet (jacket) trimmed with blue,...
I HAVE A BONNET TRIMMED WITH BLUE [1] (Ta Boinead Agam). AKA - "I Have a Bonnet." AKA and see "Alex Dice," "Bonnet/Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Din Tarrant's" "I have a donkey, he wouldn't go," "Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Krakovienne" (Boehme), "T· BoinÈad agam," "Tarrant's," "Walk Jawbone." Irish, American; Polka. USA, eastern Mass. G Major (Bayard, Breathnach, Mallinson): A Major (Mallinson). Standard. AB (Bayard): AABB (Breathnach, Mallinson). The name comes from the ditty beginning "I have a bonnet (jacket) trimmed with blue." Sources for notated versions: Mrs. Anastasia Corkery (Cambridge, Mass., 1930's; originally from Co. Cork, Ireland) [Bayard]; whistle, flute and concertina player Michael Tubridy (Ireland) [Breathnach]. Bayard, 1981; Appendix No. 30, pg. 584. Breathnach, Vol. 3, 1985; No. 68, pg. 35. Mallinson (100 Polkas), 1997; No. 29, pg. 12 & No. 60 , pg. 23. Claddagh Records CC27, Michael Tubridy - "The Eagle's Whistle" (1978).
I HAVE A BONNET TRIMMED WITH BLUE [2]. Scottish, Polka. D Major ('A', 'B', 'C' and 'F' parts) & G Major ('D' and 'E' parts). Standard. AABBCCDDEEFF. A variation of version #1.
I HAVE A DONKEY, HE WOULDN'T GO. AKA and see "I Have a Bonnet Trimmed with Blue" [1].
JACKET TRIMMED IN BLUE, THE. AKA and see "Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "Cracovienne Quickstep." Irish, Canadian; Polka. Ireland, West Kerry. G Major (Messer): A Major (Mac Amhlaoibh & Durham). Standard. AABB. Mac Amhlaoibh & Durham, No. 12, pg. 16 (appears as "A Bonnet Trimmed in Blue"). Messer, 1948; No. 57. Messer, 1980; No. 98, pg. 63.
KRAKOVIAK. AKA and see "Krakovienne," "Cracovienne," "Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "Walk Jawbone" (USA). Scottish, Dance Tune (2/4 time). G Major. Standard. AABB. Known in Germany as "Krakovienne." In County Donegal, Ireland, this tune (as it appears in Kerr's) was used at house parties to accompany the dance The Berlin Polky (Polka), as remembered by musician Danny O'Donnell. Kerr, Vol. 1, pg. 46, and Vol. 4, No. 419.
WALK JAWBONE [2]. AKA and see "Alex Dice," "Bonnet/Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Din Tarrant's" "I Have a Bonnet Trimmed with Blue," "I have a donkey, he wouldn't go," "Krakovienne" (Boehme), "T· BoinÈad agam," "Tarrant's." Old-Time, Breakdown. F Major. Standard. AABB. Apparently adapted by American black-face minstrels from an Irish melody. See Irish version in Roche, Vol. 2, No. 302 (appears as "Set Dance"). |
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18 Oct 00 - 07:34 AM (#321661) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Airto I'll Tell Me Ma Hilary, as far as I know this is a Belfast skipping song. To judge by the lyrics, I would guess it's origins are much more recent than 1771 . Furthermore, Belfast only started growing into a town, never mind a city, in the early to mid-19th century. |
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18 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM (#321664) Subject: Lyr Add: I'll Tell Me Ma From: Airto Rats! The text of my message seems to have vanished. Let's try again... Hilary, I'll Tell Me Ma is a Belfast skipping song. To judge from the lyrics, I would say the origins of the song are much more recent than 1771. In any case, Belfast only started becoming an important settlement in the early 19th century. |
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18 Oct 00 - 08:12 AM (#321671) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: The Walrus at work Airto, Your point about Belfast is well made, but I remember hearing the song as a child both as "...She is the belle of DUBLIN City..." and "...She is the belle of LONDON City...". These may have been local variations (I'm a Londoner), or it could be that "Belfast" is the variation and the song is older. Regards
Walrus |
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21 Oct 00 - 07:52 PM (#324233) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: GUEST,Hilary Thanks all--particularly Malcolm-- for your time and attention. Best info/guess seems to indicate both are too recent. Shame, as both have cracking melodies... Ta for the help!
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21 Oct 00 - 08:08 PM (#324240) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: McGrath of Harlow "I'll tell me ma" has been sung all over the place, with all kind of place names, including Dublin and Glasgow. I suppose for a rhyme it'd have to be a city,but there's a fair number of them around, and were in 1771.
You could try getting hold of The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes |
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24 Oct 00 - 06:01 PM (#326400) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Jo Taylor Neither of them seem to appear in the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, are they there? Jo Taylor |
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29 Mar 24 - 02:09 PM (#4200015) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: GUEST The reference to a bonnet is the clue to the date. C1842/45. What Americans call a 'Poke' bonnet. |
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29 Mar 24 - 02:13 PM (#4200017) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I once got a folk club kicked out of a pub for singing "My young man" too loudly! Robin |
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30 Mar 24 - 11:04 AM (#4200078) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Nigel Parsons "Always 1771" Anything to do with the old party trick of always finding a shilling with 1771 on it? 1771 was not the date, but could be found inverted in 'shilling' |
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30 Mar 24 - 05:00 PM (#4200110) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: The Sandman my guess is after 1840 s when polka tunes became the rage |
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31 Mar 24 - 03:56 PM (#4200156) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Jack Campin The tune is known to pipers as The Liberton Polka - named after a part of Edinburgh that has had an army barracks since the 19th century. You should be able to find the history of the tune by searching under that name. If I remember right, it's a mashup of two pre-existing tunes and dates maybe from the 1880s? |
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31 Mar 24 - 04:13 PM (#4200157) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: Jack Campin I found this from Paul Roberts: he earliest appearance of this tune of which I am aware is in English fiddle manuscripts from about the 1840s. It occurs in the well known Michael Turner Ms (Sussex, c.1841-51) as "Polish Polka" and in another...I forget which...as "Old Country Polka". |
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31 Mar 24 - 11:19 PM (#4200180) Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song From: The Sandman so my guess of after 1840 was not far out |